Nate Boyer On Developing Perseverance And Asking For Help

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1:43Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:33Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I told you in the last episode when I was sitting down with Nate Boyer, like right as we were getting down, he was telling me that he was setting up to run the Leadville Ultra Marathon, which is a crazy 100-mile race. And they finished it in just under 24 hours. And he was telling me, I was going to read this out. I thought it was interesting. He was saying, he says, it was just so bizarre to think and feel that at miles 23 to 38, I was having serious doubts about hitting that sub-25-hour goal or even being able to finish.

3:15But he says, running back through that same stretch as the sunset, that'd be miles 62 through 77, there were never those doubts. And he said, I felt stronger and maybe a bit faster. He said, the human body and the mind are capable of so much. And what I said is, you know, when you're doing hard stuff, it's the extrapolation that kills you. But once we see that the end is in sight, we can be a bit more present. And he said the worst parts were the expansive flat portions without the ups and downs, and there might be a life lesson in there. I'm sure there is. I'm a big fan of today's guest. You heard all about him in the last episode, and this is part two.

3:54Nate Boyer's got an incredible story, Green Beret, walk-on player at UT, long snapper at like 29 against all odds, plays for a chunk of his season at Seattle, and then has this sort of rendezvous with history in a fascinating way where when Colin Kaepernick makes a decision to sit out the national anthem, it's Nate in an article that he writes that steers Kaepernick into the direction of kneeling instead. and I just thought Nate handled it in a classy, smart, fascinating and really wise way. We talk about that in the interview among many, many other things. And back to the Leadville Marathon, he and I talked about a previous guest, Courtney Dewalter, at the beginning I think of last week's episode about the idea of exploring the pain cave and I said, what did you find out while they're in the pain cave?

4:47And he said, that fucker goes deep. So we go deep in the second part of this interview with Nate Boyer. Check out his movie MVP. You can stream that. I just pulled it up, I think, on Amazon Prime, and I got it through Showtime Plus or something like that. It was a great movie. I really enjoyed it. Told, actually, some other athletes I know all about it. And then you can follow him on Instagram at NateBoyer37. You can follow at Merging Vets and Players. That's his charity MVP. You can check out their website at vetsandplayers.org. But here's part two of my interview with a person I've really come to admire and respect.

5:26And I think through the course of this interview, you will feel the same way.

5:36That's where we're at right now, where it's just, I feel like so many people are so sure of what they know as the truth. and the, you know, however they receive their information. I shouldn't say knowledge, you know. Yeah, even information might be generous. Yeah, that's true. You know what I mean? That's true. This is just fucking shit that they're consuming off the internet. Totally. And it's wild. I mean, it's, you know, I see it in people very close to me in different aspects of my life. And I have a lot of different groups of people I associate with. and it's just interesting to hear those different opinions.

6:17And I'm like, I understand why you feel that way, but have you thought of this? And, you know, I don't know. I'm like the ultimate devil's advocate. I love to play that game, but I love to play that game because I don't really know what is and what isn't. And sometimes I'm, you know, sometimes, often, something I'm so sure of and feel so strongly about is absolutely challenged and it changes me, you know? And then sometimes it swings back the other way And it's just that it's that it's that constant game. Like I am, I am, uh, yeah, I don't know what I actually believe. I really don't. I know what I think and I feel, but.

6:54My wife was telling me she's reading this book about medicine and like the statistics were showing that like if you have something that needs to be diagnosed, you actually want a younger doctor because that doctor is – so basically if you want – if you have something that needs to be diagnosed, you want a younger doctor. If you have a procedure that needs to be done, you want an older doctor. And that like, so basically an older doctor, an experienced surgeon has been in this situation countless times. They're prepared for all the contingencies. They have thousands of hours. They're masters at this thing.

7:30If you have that master in the room diagnosing you, they have this, a lot of preconceived notions. They've been burned a lot of times. they're more likely to tell you what they think as opposed to elicit from you all the information and the potential disconfirmation. Right. And I think that's an interesting way to think about knowledge that like there's a difference between, but you have to be careful that your mastery and your experience doesn't also make you rigid and arrogant. And like Napoleon talks about not wanting to form a picture. Like if you have a sense, if you believe you know how it's going to go, you're closed off to information that might be leading you to believe it could go a very different way.

8:21And you've got to be sort of open and receptive to all the things that can happen. The more your identity is tied up in certain beliefs, for instance, the less likely you are to change your mind because now you have to go. But I, as a Republican, do not like those kinds of people or me as a Democrat believes that this is what's right. So now the world's giving me this information about, hey, this policy we came up with is not working, but what am I going to do? Believe something that the people I don't like believe? Right. Yeah, no, that's very interesting. Speaking of belief, I have had this conversation with several people and you get different answers every time.

9:01Do you think you choose what you believe or no? What do you mean? So like my, a lot of people choose, whether it's religion, right? God, a lot of people say, well, no, I choose to believe that, you know, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior or whatever this thing is. And where my mind immediately goes is, well, if you're choosing to believe it, you don't actually believe it. You're just saying that you believe it. Like you are, if you actually believed it, it wouldn't be a choice to me. You know what I mean? And it's like, well, I just, I genuinely believe this thing. So I'm not making a choice of whether I do or not.

9:39But people will argue that and be like, no, belief is a choice. You know, belief in something. I don't know. Well, on the most basic level, like you believe what you believe and you think a lot of what you think because of where you're from, who your parents were, when you were born. And I don't, it's not like, it's kind of mind blowing, but it's not exactly like a breakthrough insight to go. But if you were born in India 100 years ago, or if you were born in the South, you know, in 1840, you'd have different beliefs, right? Or if you were born to this kind of family or that, like, so much of what we have is a product of, you know, our circumstances, the times we're in.

10:17And yet, the idea that we don't have any agency would be a pretty dark, depressing way. Like, if we're 100 % a product of our environment, that we can't change our mind, that we can't form our beliefs, change our assumptions, whatever. It's like, well, then what are we all doing here? Like this is all, this is all the, the stoic, the stoic sort of view on, on this stuff was that they had this image of like, this, we're like a dog tied to a cart. So like this thing is pulling us and we're not strong enough to stop it necessarily, but we can decide kind of like, we have some leeway with some slack in that rope.

10:59You know, we have some control over it. And so I kind of think about it that way. But first off, I think it's humbling and eye-opening to just be like, yeah, like I'm much more a product of my environment than I would perhaps like to believe. And then ironically, in realizing that, it gives you some power over your environment to go like, wait, why do I think Jesus is our Lord and Savior? That's because when I was two years old, my parents told me that and forced me every day or, you know, every week to go to a thing where every, all the adults around me, the people I admired the most reiterated to me, this is true over and over again.

11:34Well, now that I'm an adult, I have the ability to go, is that true? Right. You know, do I believe that? Like how much of this is real? And so I think it's both we do control our beliefs and we don't. We don't control our beliefs and we do. That's a terrible answer. It's great. But that's life. You know what I mean? It's paradoxical. It's great. It's paradoxical. Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah. I mean, you know, and not that we never choose, we always choose our actions or whether we're going to learn about something. You know what I mean? you choose to research something or to question something like you can, you know, well, maybe you don't choose to question it, but you can, you choose to like seek that out.

12:18You know, if you're questioning things, you can ignore it. Like I'm questioning the thing. No, no, no. But it's not, you know, a lot of people do that a lot of times. Yeah. And, uh, and I think there's value in that. I think when I think of it from a religious standpoint, um, you know, if the word faith to me, it insinuates doubt. I mean, there is doubt. You have to have it or you don't have faith, you know? So there's a lot of people in various religions that are like, they will say without a doubt, I know this is the way and this is correct. And I'm not saying that's bad or wrong, but that's not, but that's not faith.

12:54You know what I mean? That's not, that's not faith. Cause faith is like without, without that doubt that it might not be true. Then there is no, there is no faith to, to, to actually pursue that belief, I guess, in a sense. I don't know if that makes sense yeah yeah it's uh like i i just that i mean that's that's that's just how it feels to me like if it's like like i just when you say to yourself i just gotta have faith i just gotta have faith i gotta think that it's possible it's kind of what you're saying yeah and so if you think that it's possible then you don't know you just think you know or you hope or whatever so that faith thing and that's a big at least in the you know in in christianity that's a big uh component is faith, you know, not through, they say salvation is through faith, not by works, you know what I mean?

13:40Not by the things that we do, but that, that, that belief and that hope and whatever. But, but with that, to me, it's like a great amount of doubt that you'll never get rid of. And you'll always wonder, and you want to just continue to research that thing. And I think that goes for a lot of things in life, not just religion. But those are the things that are. I've always thought that to be totally nonsense. Like, let's say God does exist, right? He like creates this universe. Let's talk about the Christian God, because that's the one I'm most remotely. And he's like, the most important thing isn't what you do.

14:12It's not how you treat the other people that I've made. It's just that you believe in me. The most important thing is that you believe in me. And by the way, I'm going to make it really hard to know whether I exist or not. So in fact, I'm going to sow all sorts of doubt about whether I exist or not. And yeah, just the main thing is you believe in me. No, no, I struggle. Absolutely. Like if the Bible is the Bible, that's certainly not – Jesus talked a lot about works, you know, and then did a lot of works, right? So that's always struck me as a silly proposition. I agree. And I think that – I mean, it all comes down to interpretation, right?

14:48And I think there's a lot of things in a lot of religious works that, you know, one mind conflicts with another. You know, and maybe in the Bible, one book may conflict with another. Or maybe within this book, one line may conflict with another. and it all comes down to how, you know, we are interpreting those things. But, you know, I, I, I'm with you on that. Like it's not, it's a matter of like, are you doing these works for your own salvation or are you doing these things because they're the right thing to do and you care about your fellow brother and all that. And I, and I think those in probably most religious teachings, like that's the baseline of like what you're supposed to do.

15:26It's supposed to be about the community and about others. And it's not, you know, but if like the goal and the focus is like my own salvation, I can go do all this terrible shit. But if I ask for forgiveness and I, and I, and I say, whether it's out loud or in my mind that, you know, Jesus is my Lord and Savior or whatever this is. And of course we're just using the Christian example, then I'm okay. Like I, I don't agree with that either. I think that, you know, I, and, and obviously I don't know whether there is a God or not, or what his intent, but like, or her intent or whatever. But like that, that's what I've always struggled with in those communities is like the idea that, well, don't you want to go to heaven?

16:06And I'm like, I do. If the people that I look up to and maybe aspire to be in, and I'm inspired by are also there, but if they're not, because they didn't say this thing, I don't know if I want to hang out with those people because that's not my tribe. Like I don't feel the connection to that group. Or I don't want to go to heaven. I don't want to go to a heaven where for most of human history, the places that had not been exposed to Christianity, all those people are burning in hell for eternity because they happen to be in Africa instead of, you know, 14th century France. Totally. You know, it's a preposterous.

16:44You know, and there's certain people that will say that, well, on judgment day, they'll get another shot, you know? And I mean, how do you know that? Like, do you know that? I don't know. But, but, but even so, yeah, there'll also be other ones who'd be like, well, that's why we have, you know, missionaries. And that's why people go and preach the gospel and all that. So they all have had the opportunity. I'm like, so you're telling me the person that knocks on your door in a suit and tie, you gave them the time of day and you actually listen to them because that's a different idea or a different religion or whatever.

17:15But no, you had your thing And you're like, you know, no thing. I do feel like I grew up, my parents went to church. I grew up Catholic. And then I sort of in college, I read, you know, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all the Christopher Hitchens, all these sort of atheist guys. And then I was like, yes, God definitely does not exist. Right. So I just went from one to the other. And then as I've gotten older, I'm agnostic in the sense that I'm actually like, I don't fucking know. I just know I don't buy a lot of what these people are selling because it's mostly about, you know, your mega church or your enormous mansion.

17:50It's a lot about discrimination. Yeah. You know what I mean? Which I don't love. No, when you read the Bible, it's very hard to hear the example and the life of Jesus and not be like, I am on board with that. Absolutely. And then it's also very hard to see literally any of that in any denomination of Christianity. Like within the people, you mean? Yeah. I mean, even within the frameworks or the set of beliefs that the church uphold.

18:22It's also interesting for me, you know, writing about ancient philosophy. I think a lot of people who are religious have never really been exposed that much to history or to philosophy. so they feel like one feels like very ancient and like like jesus and seneca were born the same year so and lived both in the roman empire both from provinces of the roman empire both enormously successful philosophers in their own lifetime both ultimately killed by the roman state you know gruesomely so and then when i as much as i am interested in and and find a lot of value in Jesus's teachings, you know, the Sermon on the Mount and all that.

19:05And then I read Seneca, I'm like, this sounds like it's coming from a real fucking person, you know, like a real flesh and blood human who's talking about the world that he is living in as a flesh and blood human. Is somebody transcribing Seneca's words or Seneca wrote those words? Seneca wrote essays. I mean, we have a book of Seneca's letters that he wrote to his friend. That's what I'm saying. That's maybe the difference. A lot of this, you know, it's an interpreted version of what was said. Somebody else wrote it down and then, I don't know. Seneca's never like, I am the son of God. You know, like there's, he's not possessing, he's not professing to have any magical powers or he's not threatening heaven or hell or, you know, He's not speaking on anyone's authority but his own.

19:53And again, Seneca writes these letters. Seneca's letters, he's writing to his friend Lucilius, who has the same job as Pontius Pilate. It's fucking real. When you read the Stoics, it's real people who have real jobs. Cato is a senator. We have senators now. You know what I mean? When I'm reading the Stoics, I'm like, these are people who are not mystics. There's nothing magical about it. No faith is required. It is, here's some tried and true strategies to make you a better person, to make you less scared, you know, less angry, you know, more patient, more decent. And there's a lot of that in Jesus, but there's also, you know, let me tell you this parable about, you know, this thing.

20:43Did it actually happen or not? Nobody knows, you know, all of that. Yeah, no, that's super interesting. That's super interesting. Yeah. And I think, you know, to go back on the framework and what you were talking about, sort of the idea, I think Gandhi, I'm paraphrasing for sure, but he was like, basically I'm on board with Christianity. I just don't love your Christians. You know what I mean? Because it was the, not just the imperfection of man, the frailty of man or whatever. We all know that we are, you know, we're full of sin or mistake or whatever you want to call it. We screw up every day.

21:14but it's it's like the it's owning that and and and having that openness and just the understanding or the or the the funny thing about gandhi is way more christian than the occupying british you know what i mean right uh gandhi isn't opening up with more guns yeah on on crowds of people you know yeah gandhi it's like gandhi read the story of christ and then decided to actually live in a Christ-like way. And really the brilliance of Gandhi and then also Martin Luther King is like, it's like, oh, you really believe this? And then reflecting back to the occupying powers, whether it's the British or it's, you know, sort of the American South, reflecting back like, you don't believe this.

22:05You profess to believe it, but look at what you did. You just opened up with fire hoses on children. Like, tell me where that's in the Bible, right? Tell me where that's in the Constitution, right? And the sort of purity of like, they actually took it seriously and literally is what, you know, changed the world. Totally, yeah. Going back to the movie, I was curious, like how close to the character with Z's journey was yours? Like, did you come back angry and struggling to readjust? or was that, that's a common story, but it's not your story? Yeah, so in the end credits, there's two veterans, AJ and Denver, who speak, right?

22:48So the backstory of Zephyr is based on their backstories. So AJ, you know, he was living with his mother, homeless much of his youth, you know, and really struggled with, you know, when she got, she got remarried and the, to not a nice person and he just couldn't wait to leave and never come back. His whole thing was, I'm never coming home. And with Denver, Denver grew up in, uh, in Ventura County and, you know, just kind of a tough childhood once again, and ran to the Marine Corps and then went off and was on N-27 in that battalion. They lost, uh, 29 guys on back-to-back deployments. And I think now the number is 56 or so to suicide, since they came back in 2009.

23:36And so both of these guys, Denver was living in that shelter. That's a real place. We shot on location in this veterans homeless shelter. And AJ and Denver had started to become buddies. They got connected through, I can't even remember what. It may have been through the beginnings of MVP, but I think it was through something else. But anyway, those two guys really built MVP in the sense of like brought in those first vets. I had the opportunity to go down there to that shelter. So I was almost a bit in Will's shoes when I first met Denver. Sure. You know, I had just gotten done with playing football.

24:10And a guy I know who was formerly homeless who started this shelter, he was like, you got to come down and hang out with these guys, talk to them. And I went down there and I met Denver and I met some other people. And Denver was not excited that somebody was down there to like cheer them up. You know what I mean? And so, and I totally get that. And, but we ended up connecting afterwards and talking and, you know, getting to know him and his story. and then they really built MVP. But to your point, a lot of what was written, first of all, pretty much everything that was written has either been said in an MVP session on the mat there or something I've felt or said or heard from somebody, from another veteran.

24:50So there was a lot of me in that character, you know, and a lot of things I felt. But I didn't really transition or feel like I'd lost that uniform or identity until football was over because I went right into football. And even when I was playing football at Texas, I was still in the national guard. So in the summers I was going to Afghanistan, you know, so I was a very high octane, you know, operation tempo of just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Take your finals early, go to Afghanistan, come back a day before training camp, go to practice, play football, go to school, do it all again next year.

25:27And, and I loved it. And I, I volunteered to do all those things. I made that choice. But then, you know, I went to Seattle for about four or five months. I got cut and all of a sudden it was like, you know, just done. And so that was my transition moment really was at 34. And that's not long after we started, I started MVP with Jay Glazer. But yeah, it was really a lot of them in those characters, a lot of AJ and Denver in that Zephyr character. Um, but some of the, you know, some of the self-harm stuff, a lot of, a lot of vets, I think a lot of people experience, but in a physical manner and also in a, you know, in a mental manner, we beat ourselves up like big time.

26:10We don't, we really struggle with, um, being, being, uh, being grateful for what we did or grateful is not the right word. Uh, appreciating our, you know, what we were willing to sacrifice and, and giving ourself, you know, a pat on the back. as cheesy as that sounds, but we really, it's just, it's ingrained in us that it is the team and it is. But understand that you're a part of that team as an individual. Like you did some, you did some pretty incredible stuff and you know, you sacrifice so much. Like you're still that person now. You can go do anything else. You can, you can, you can change the world, continue to change the world and you can continue to fight for those who can't fight for themselves or whatever you want to do.

26:50But yeah, with the film, every single vet portrayed on screen is played by an actual vet. So even Dan Lauria, who was the dad on the Wonder Years back in the day, I don't know if you recognized him in there. He's a Vietnam vet. Really? So all those vets were played by vets. And a lot of the athletes from Randy Couture, Tony Gonzalez, Strahan and Howie Long have a cameo. Jared Bunch, who plays Ray, the other NFL player, you know, he played, you know, for the Giants for four years and injury ended his career. all those guys like so many of the characters i mean mo mccray who played will phillips who was spectacular he's one of the only at least leading males in it yeah he is probably the only leading or bigger role male in it that's not a veteran athlete really yeah and tom arnold he's got that nice little cameo yeah you know but even the but even the women like um christina ochoa and dina shihabi like they are very uh ingrained in the veteran uh world and that's why they wanted to be a part of this because I mean, all these people worked for next to nothing.

27:50You know, I mean, all of them, like no one got a big paycheck there because we didn't have it. I mean, we made it for nothing. So, you know, it was just a lot of, I don't even want to say favors. They were just passionate about the story and, and what Merging Vets and Players is. And they just wanted to be a part of it.

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31:12Yeah, no, I thought it was great. Jay Glazer, I think, has the best line in the whole movie. Which line? He says, I know what's behind my ribcage and between my ears. That's what makes me great. Yeah. Yeah. To me, that's one, the definition of confidence. and then two, the Stokes would say, the greatest empire is to rule over oneself, right? And so the ability to be like, I know who I am. I know what I'm capable of. I got this, which is why I'm confident that I got that. To me, that's like, that's the work. That's what you're trying to do. Yeah, and that's something that Jay and Randy say all the time.

31:51Really? Yeah, it's something they say, they'll talk about it at an MVP huddle, but they'll talk about it on the street to a stranger too, or to a fighter that's, you know, young and they're trying to get in that mental game because so much of it, so much of these fights are won before they're even, they've even begun. You know what I mean? It's really true. But that's what, that's what Randy did that was different. You know, Randy's one of these guys that in the ring or in the octagon, he just, you know, rounds over and he's dog tired and he's like, I got beat last round. So I'm not going to sit on my bench and get water and all this.

32:28I'm going to stand there and bounce around and my hands aren't going on my hips. And I'm not going to look at the guy and make it a thing. I'm just going to act like this is just what I do. This is who I am, which it is. It becomes who you are. Your habits define you. But he's doing that. And at the corner of his eye, he's noticing this other fighter sitting across like, how does this dude have that much? How is he not tired? And Randy's exhausted. He's dying, but he's like, this is the mental game right here. And if I do this, I'm winning this, this, I'm winning between the rounds. You know what I mean?

32:57So then the next round they come out and the guy's coming up with this, like, oh man, like I thought I had him last year. I thought I beat him to submission, but he's over there raring to go. I'm in trouble, you know? And he got, once that's happened, it's over. So that's, that's, you know, between the rib cage and between the ears. When I imagine as you do this, this ultra marathon, you're going to run into a wall at some point and you're going to have to know. Probably earlier than I want. And you're going to have to go. Like, look, I'm the person that was there in Afghanistan and wreck. I'm this person that was, you know, everyone said it was impossible to make a college football team.

33:32I'm the person they said I had no chance to be in the NFL. Like you've done all these things. You know what you're capable of. And that's what you draw on in those moments where, you know, the thing looks impossible or overwhelming or very unlikely. Right. Yeah. That's what I have to. I have to remember that. And it's sometimes hard to in the moment. It's nice to have friends remind you. I mean, that is definitely helpful. And that's another sort of tenet of MVP is, you know, we got your back. And it's a community doing this. It's not just MVP. That's life. You need those people to, you know, it's not just pumping you full of bullshit either.

34:06You know, it's just reminding you who you are, you know, and what you've done. Because we soon forget. And once we deconstruct that difficult, challenging thing and we realize it's simple but not easy. and there is that process, then maybe we also forget from an outside perspective how crazy this other thing is that we're looking at and like how impossible it seems to run a hundred miles or whatever. But until you can kind of get under the hood and start to do that and be there in that moment, be able to draw parallels with these other things, that's how we get through. And I think a lot of people wonder, well, but I've never done anything big or great.

34:48And it's just like, you got to start small. You got these little stupid things that seem, you know, they seem pointless maybe, but, uh, going back to basic training, the moment for me in basic training that gave me this, this ultra belief in myself, uh, from a physical standpoint and belief of what, you know, my body could endure was we we were probably about halfway through and we'd been granted the opportunity on Sundays. You know, you can go to church and you can go to the PX if you need to get something and you can go get a little extra workout in if you want. You've had like a few hours, a little window of some free time.

35:33Some people, you know, square to wear their locker and took a nap and totally respect that, you know? Yeah. But I would like, I put my body armor on and I would go down to the track. And one day I did a mile of lunges. And it was like, exactly. That's how I felt. That's what I thought. But I was like, I just want to see if it's possible. Like, I'll see if, I'm gonna see how far I can go. So I start going, I'm a quarter of the way into the first quarter mile. And the legs are shaking and I'm already like, this is really hard. But I just kept doing it, you know? And I kept doing it. pretty soon I'm halfway through that quarter.

36:11And then I've got a quarter done. And then I'm half mile done. I'm halfway done. I'm like, this is home stretch. And I still feel all those things and it's super hard. Maybe that was my cave moment. Like I'm seeing how deep did the cave go. But I just kept going and I kept going and I got, and I finished it and I got done. And I'm like limping back to the barracks, just like jello. And I'm like, man, this is dumb. We got 10 miles in the morning, but, um, but I did it. And I just was like, if I can do this, man, I can, I don't know what I can't do. And, you know, that's something that Jay, Jay said to me too, when I got to spend some time with him, um, before the, the, the Seahawks and got to train at his gym.

36:50And, um, you know, that's kind of his whole mindset through this, you know, unbreakable performance center is just, I'm not sure I, I know what you can do. I've seen that, but I'm not sure what you can't do. You know what I mean? And I can't, I can't wait to see what that looks like, you know? And that was something when he told me that I was just like, okay. I mean, that, that, that, that's just sort of clicked for me. And it made me think of that moment and a lot of other things where it was like, yeah, I didn't, I didn't know what I couldn't do either. You know, until you only learn your max weight by continually adding weight until you can't lift it anymore.

37:27Do you know what I mean? And so you have to be willing to sort of push that further and further and further. And then, you know, sometimes you go, okay, that's too much. I took on too much. I don't, or I'm unhappy doing that much. That's not the direction I want to go in, but you, you do have to, to sort of continually push and sort of question and go, can I go a little bit further? Can I go a little bit faster? Can I do a little bit better? And I think that's the, that's the skill that makes people great. Like obviously people think Tom Brady's obsessed with winning. I think Tom Brady is actually obsessed with performance, you know, like with releasing the ball a little bit faster, you know, um, you know, making the routes better.

38:05You know, he's, he's obsessed with the component pieces. And if you get really obsessed with that, it tends to culminate in, you know, Bill Walsh's thing about how, you know, the score takes care of itself. Like if you're obsessed with getting better at the pieces, you tend to get better results out of the other side. It's not guaranteed, but, um, if you're obsessed with that, then. And even when the result doesn't go your way, if you did all you could and you, and you, like you, you are okay with it. Typically you can walk away and it sucks. It hurts for a bit, but you're like, I, but I did everything I could.

38:39And I, you know what I mean? And on this day, that opponent was just a little bit better than me and that's okay. But I, you know, I, I did everything that I could. The talk I just gave at the Naval Academy, I, I ended with this story about Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter goes to the Naval Academy in 46, he graduates in 46. And so he wants to be on nuclear submarines. So he ends up, he, at that time, all the, all the candidates are interviewed by Admiral Hyman Rickover, who's sort of the head of this program. He does it for years and years and years. And so it's this interview process. It's the best of the best.

39:13You know, it's the most competitive slot. And so it's sort of, it's a long interview. They talk about books and they talk about physics and they talk about, you know, history. And then finally Rickover goes, you know, how did you do in your class at the Naval Academy? You know, Rickover's like, oh, you know, sorry, Carter's like, you know, great. You know, I was like 32 out of, you know, 400, whatever. He's thinking about rank. And I started talking about his grades and how great he did. And Rickover just goes, but did you always do your best? And he's, of course, you know, your instinct is, yeah, of course, right?

39:47and then he's like thinks about it and he's like well you know he's thinking about all the times he didn't do his best right like all you know classes that he phoned in or you know he could have gone and done extra pt doesn't and he goes you know what no i didn't always do my best and then rick over goes why not and then he just gets up and leaves and that question sort of haunts jimmy carter for the rest of his life like his campaign biography when he runs for his first office is called Why Not the Best? Like, why didn't you do your best? And so, yeah, I think people who are really great, and people don't always think of him as a great president.

40:24He actually was a great president and was a much better ex-president. Like, without question, the best person ever to have been president. Like, I mean, up until a couple years ago, he's still building houses for Habitat for Humanity. He's cured all these diseases. He's brokered all these peace treaties and stuff, a great human being. But really great people are not actually thinking about, here's my list of accomplishments. They're like, I always did the best I could do in the situation that I was in. I didn't quit, you know, three laps in. Like, I went until I fucking fell over, you know, like that.

41:02To me, it's like, did you do your best? yes or no yeah and i think i think with that at least for me i don't know if there's ever truly a hundred percent because throughout that if it's something hard you're gonna have the you're gonna have the false step here and there and like like the you know the debate in your head about quitting and that whatever and there might be a bit of wasted man if it's wasted time but not productive time in that moment. But like, if you just keep, I think your best is dealing with that and seeing through that, you know? So it's not like you're a hundred percent optimal performance at all times or whatever it's, but it's, it's just not, I mean, it really is just not quitting in a sense, but, um, but yeah, I mean that, that, uh, yeah, that's, that's, that's absolutely, that's in, I think that's in common with pretty much anybody that does anything at a high level is just that, you know.

41:58And I love that question too, because it's like, you're like, oh, we won or we lost. It's like, did you do your best? And it's like, no. And it's why? You know, like, what reason did you have for not doing your best? Not like, why didn't, the question is that why weren't you perfect, right? Or like, why didn't you succeed? The question is why at some juncture where you could have given 100%, and you gave 76%, what was the reason? You know what I mean? When I look at the book, I don't go, is this the greatest book ever? I go, is it the best book I was capable of doing? And if the answer is like, no, I could have done better if I did more time.

42:45Well, it's like, why didn't I ask for more time? Why did I accept the premise that it had to come out right now? Why didn't I do my best? It's interesting. and now I'm questioning everything I've ever done. Thanks, Ryan. Of course. I mean, that's the power of that. I mean, it transforms this guy's life. I mean, he was obviously talented and driven and skilled before, but this question of like, yeah, but why didn't you do it? Like, he's like, I don't give a shit what your rank was in the class, right? Because what if you were 30th in your class, but you could have been first, right? Like, that's not a person you want to work with.

43:20And then what if you were 300th in your class, but you were only capable of being 300th in your class. Like that's a person who actualized their potential literally to the highest it could be. And chances are when you ask them to do something, they're going to do the best they are capable of doing. Now, in some cases, like you said, sometimes this long snapper is better than that long snapper. But I imagine when they were like, when you tried out for UT and they were like, okay, he can't be a safety. He does not have what it, but we need a long snapper. and I bet this guy who does his best, I bet we could teach him to be a long snapper and he'll give us the best snapping he's capable of giving us, which may be better than this other person who's very naturally talented, but that doesn't always show up.

44:10Right. Yeah, that's true. And remembering to, because I'm so forward thinking and I'm always like, I don't, a lot of people obsess over the past. I obsess over the future. I just am always in this, you know, in this place. But remembering, I remember that after I got cut. It took me a little while to appreciate it. But like then when I would relive the game I got to play and then, you know, the time I got to spend in training camp in Seattle and, you know, getting to play in a college all-star game and, you know, getting to play at Texas and all those things. It's going back, back, back, back, back to like, you never set foot on a field till you're 29.

44:50You never even tried to long snap till you were 30. And you got all the way to this place, man. And yeah, you got cut. You failed. You know what I mean? You lost. But you went so far through whatever the ceiling was. Right, right. For what was possible when, you know, I know Ryan Shazier a little bit. And it's like, yeah, he didn't get to play again the way that he hoped. but he also danced at his wedding. You know what I mean? Which, which from where he was on that moment when he was on the field, paralyzed and like, uh, you know, close to death, that's pretty far. Like from there to here, that's pretty far.

45:32Right. And so, um, you have to think about that. Did you exceed the, the, did you break through the ceiling that seemed possible at that time? You know, like, did you do, did, did you, yeah. Did you outplay your natural abilities? Shoot for the stars and you land on the moon. Yeah, exactly. So, so to me, one of the other themes of the movie is obviously also like how hard it can be for men to ask for help. It seems like both characters are clearly very, clearly struggling. And there is this sense that stoicism is like, I got this, right? and how saying I got this can get in the way when you actually obviously don't have it and you need help.

46:15Yeah, no, that's, I mean, that's very true. I mean, just when the word stoic, when someone says they have a stoic expression on their face, to me, it's like a very masculine, very like, you know, I don't know what the word is. Stoic is the word. But you just, yeah, you look like you've got to, you're going to be able to endure whatever there is and you can handle this alone and you got the, you know, the means and the, the, the framework and the mentality. Um, but, but yeah, I, I, I think that's, it's interesting. The whole mental health conversation for me is, uh, getting abused at times a bit and sort of, it's like when people say, oh, they throw the word love around too much, you know, it's like, maybe that's getting thrown around too much in some ways where it's like, it's almost, it's almost, it's almost unfair to the, you know, that how important that should be treated, you know?

47:17And when you talk about that and like, because we're supposed to feel a wide range of emotions. We're supposed to feel sad. We're supposed to be angry. We're supposed to be at times depressed. Like that's just what the human experience is. And we're also supposed to feel joy and gratitude and whatever happiness is. And, you know, I mean, all those things too. But I think that this idea that if you're not feeling good now too, and you're not feeling okay, that like something's wrong and you need to like fix this. And it's like, we got to treat this and you got to like tell everybody you're sad.

47:53And I'm like, ah, okay, take it easy. But at the same time, you know the just stuffing it down and pretending you don't feel it doesn't do anything for anyone either the the spartans had mandatory grieving period i don't know what they called it but where they would come back from a battle and they had to purge in the sense like they were supposed to feel these emotions and i don't know how much they talked about it or what that all exactly looked like but just having that awareness you know thousands of years ago knowing that like if If I just hold all this inside, what I saw, what I felt, the loss of my brother, if I don't talk about this and just, you know, suck it up and drive on, like we say, then it's going to eat me alive.

48:34And I'm going to be in a way worse place. And it's not going to make me – it's not going to help me reach that optimal level of being, you know, or of fighting even the next time. Because I'm just going to be so worn out from the inside. I have to, like, get rid of this. and the best way that I know how is to talk about it, to admit it, to embrace it, you know, to understand that it's totally normal. Like that's why we hate the, you know, the P in PTSD or excuse me, the D in PTSD, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder. Like it is not a disorder to feel post-traumatic stress if you've experienced something very traumatic and stressful.

49:15The disordered thing would be to, yeah, I see people getting, let's say in the Spartans, cut up in front of you at close range, someone with a spear through their eye socket and not find that stressful or - That's a disorder. Yes. If you're not feeling stress in combat or after trauma or you lose someone close to you, you might be a sociopath. Yeah, totally. Do you know what I mean? Totally. No, to not, and I understand the impetus behind that, like disorder to a sense of like, you're not able to operate. You deserve treatment. You deserve special consideration. That's what they mean. But there is some implication that it's not the natural response.

49:57Totally. Cause I'm diagnosed with it, through the VA and all that. And I understand why, because I have, whether it's reoccurring dreams or thoughts or feelings and moments where I'm kind of caught off guard with an emotion or with something that reminds me of smell, a sense, a sound that can, it doesn't set me off in a sense. And that was something that was important to me with the movie and portraying that. It's not always this, we wake up in a cold sweat from this dream and, you know, Hollywood. Motorcycle backfires. Yeah, exactly. Hollywood has their way of showing us what PTSD looks like.

50:33And it's very different for everybody. And I'm not just talking about veterans either. You know, it's a human condition, but yeah, so I'm diagnosed with that and I'm, and I'm fine with that. I mean, I don't know if I would call it a disorder because I think because of my post-traumatic stress, I have become a very capable and a very, I don't think I would have the constitution that I have, but also the desire and willingness to just go for it in life if I didn't have that. Like if I didn't, if I hadn't experienced those things and if I didn't feel that stress. Well, there's also post-traumatic growth.

51:13Totally. And that's what I feel that it is promoting for me. Yeah. Because I survived that, you know, it hardened me. It's like being forged in a fire. It's the same thing. And I think that it, you know, when you get through something, and that can be doing a mile of lunges. Like there's trauma in that. It's different, of course. But I got through that and I was fine, you know, and it was okay. And I was not only fine, like I was like, man, I just did that and I'm okay. And I can keep going. It's like, if you have experienced a great loss in your life or something horrible has happened to you, and I don't even want to, you know, we can all imagine what the most horrible things are.

51:51And it happens to, you know, to children, some of the most severe post-traumatic stress is from children. It's not from veterans. And then to see what people are still capable of and what they accomplish. And so many people that have accomplished some incredible things when you dig back into their history and learn about where they came from and what happened to them, like they, they had trauma. They experienced some heavy trauma and they probably felt stressed from that, you know, and maybe it was a disorder. I don't know. But, uh, either way it, it, it, uh, it opened up, uh, they're able to access something that other people don't have.

52:27You know, there's so much value in it.

52:37You hear that? That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds, no alerts, no distractions, and no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota trucks. You probably heard the headlines about all the different cuts to foreign aid and food benefits. This is having a profound impact on the world's poorest people and the world's poorest communities. But, you know, just hearing about that, that's not what stoicism is about. Stoicism is, to me, what you're going to do about it. And that's where GiveWell comes in.

53:27GiveWell is trusted by tens of thousands of donors each year because they provide free and independent research that helps you understand how to have a big impact. GiveWell has spent the last 18 years researching global health and poverty alleviation, and they direct funding to the highest impact opportunities. Over 150 ,000 donors have already trusted GiveWell to give more than$2.5 billion over the last several years, and research suggests that these donations will save over 300 ,000 lives. I myself am one of those donors. I donate to GiveWell every year. It means a lot to me. And you can find all their research and recommendations on their site for free.

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54:38Yeah, there's this James Baldwin thing where he says, you know, you think your pain is so unique and special and, like, unprecedented in the history of the world. Right. And he says, and then you read. And realizing that, like, not just people throughout history have been through stuff, and you can like sort of take heart in their example and be inspired by it. But also like there's so many people around you that are going through the exact same thing as you. And by not talking about it, not only are you not benefiting from their comfort and, you know, experience, but by not talking about it, you're depriving them of the knowledge that you are also going through it.

55:15Do you know what I mean? So this sort of stuffing stuff down that we do, whether you're sad about the loss of your father or this addiction that you had or, you know, whatever the trauma or, you know, thing you're struggling with by, by stuffing it down, pretending it doesn't exist, you know, feeling shameful about it. You're, I think it's important to realize like you're harming yourself, but then also you're harming other people. Like if more people talked about the struggle, you wouldn't feel so alone. And then also you can contribute to making people feel less alone by talking about this struggle.

55:51Right. Yeah. And just then normalizing it because it is normal. And it's totally completely. And there's just, and like I said, there's so much value in it. And I don't think if you go out seeking trauma, it's not going to benefit you in the same way because it has to be, to me, it has to be something that was unexpected. Something that happened to me that you weren't prepared for. It happened to you that you weren't prepared for, right? because I understand that there, I've been asked that before too. Like it goes back to this grit thing that Pete talks about, you know, like, can you earn grit?

56:24I think that was the phrasing. And that's a tough one, you know, like, can you - Can you seek out obstacles to be better? Yeah, and you can seek out obstacles for sure. But as far as, you know, trauma, you know, maybe and - Life takes care of that. Yeah, life takes care of that. If you seek out obstacles, they're gonna happen. It's gonna come if it hasn't already. But, you know, that, yeah, that's something that, that is, there is so much, there is so much value in that. And that, that for me, it was even, it's even being, you know, Vaughn, I talked about it very early on when we were talking today, but, you know, open about insecurities and, and, and still feeling like that 13 year old kid or whatever age that just didn't, didn't like himself at all, you know, and didn't like the way he, you know, he, he looked and didn't like the way that he thought.

57:14you know those we all have horror we all have horrible thoughts at times you know we just do that's just that i don't know what that is but we have them yeah and they're there and uh and just just understanding that these things are normal these things are life you know it is a roller coaster you're gonna feel these high highs and low lows and the higher the highs probably the lower the lows at the same time um and riding you know riding through those moments and and just knowing that this is the human experience and, you know, that the cave as, as Courtney was talking about. Why can people also do everyone a disservice by like, when they tell their story of like how you got where you got, like particularly when you're successful is we tell this really simple, clean narrative where it was obvious that it was always going to happen.

57:55And like, we're like, I always, I knew from when I was six, I wanted to be a writer. And it's like, did you really? Or did you also think you're going to be an astronaut and these other things? And only later did that become clear. Right. And so like, when you hear people's stories, it's, it can be intimidating because they've polished all the, you know, all the surfaces and rounded off all the edges. And then it makes you feel weird and inadequate or incapable because you're like, but my story is not like that. You know what I mean? If you're like, I always knew I could do it and then I did it.

58:29Well, it's like, but you're not, you didn't always think you could do it. There was the moments where, you know, you were for sure thought you were going to get fired or it wasn't going to work. And so by not talking about those, you're actually making this hard thing harder for other people. So if you go, oh, you know, it was easy for me. I just, you know, did X, Y, or Z and now I'm good. Like, well, then this other person who goes like, well, I'm fucking, you know, riddled with insecurity and doubt and I am crying myself to sleep every night. They think they're the weirdo. Right. But actually like, there's nothing weird about it at all.

59:05No, no. Yeah, that's very true. That is, I guess, in a sense, selfish. Yeah. But also, it's just not being honest, you know? Yeah, everyone pretends they have a perfect marriage and they don't. And then you go like, well, why is my marriage so bad? And it's like, actually, if you knew what everyone else's marriage is like, you'd be pretty chill probably, you know? You're still married. You're doing great. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then, yeah, I think it also contributes to this sense that we're not all in it together, right? one of the only military metaphors that Marcus uses, he says, like a soldier storming a wall, you've fallen and now you have to reach and ask a comrade for help.

59:47And then he goes, so what? To me, what I love about that, I think it's so the opposite of the image people think about stoicism. I love that he goes, you have to ask for help. So what? Like it not only like, It's not even celebrating. It's expressing it how it should be seen, which is not a fucking big deal at all. Yeah. If you're like, hey, could you hand me that? You're not like, how dare you impose, right? Exactly. You're like, sure, it's right here. But like we have this aversion to asking for help, admitting doubt or error or, you know, relying on people. And then it makes it so much harder than it needs to be, especially when we're struggling.

1:00:34It's just all ego. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it totally is. And we all struggle with it, I think. I think everybody does. I mean, we never want to look stupid. You know, we don't. we just, we want to do everything to look good or avoid looking bad or whatever it is. Like we, that's just who we are. You know, but I think if the, just the awareness and understanding that, and then like you kind of alluded to earlier with some of the things you were saying about depriving others, you know, when you, when you're depriving others of the opportunity to help you to, it's selfish, man. Like that's all we want to do.

1:01:06Like I, you know, we love it. Nothing more when you've got that person that you admire, maybe even, or you think they've got it all squared away and then they reach out to you and be like, hey, what do you think about this? Or like, they want your opinion and they want your help, you know? And you're like, nice. Like, this is cool. This is good. When people ask you for help, you're always like, sure. You're like excited, you know? You're never like, oh, these people are always coming to me. Unless they're always asking you for help on something stupid, you know they can handle it. Yes. But I mean, generally when people are vulnerable about something they're really struggling with and or don't know or whatever.

1:01:40And you're like, you're excited. Like if your friends come to you and they're like, I don't know what to do. Or like, I'm really worried about this. You're like, this is amazing. Like not only are you excited, but you're like, look at us, you know? And then - You actually value my opinion. And then you're like, you don't know something or you have doubts or you're insecure. And you're like, I don't want to bother them. Or like, they'll hate me for this. And it's like, it's probably much closer to your reaction to things than whatever you're making up about other people. Yeah. And I think it's often harder the closer that person is to you because you're like, nah, I don't want to give them that power.

1:02:19You know what I mean? Yeah, also ego, yeah. I see that a lot in, I noticed that a lot in my, you know, in relationships, you know, where it's like, well, you know, I don't want my girlfriend to, you know, to think that I don't have this covered. I got it figured out. And it's like, if I do this, then I look weak. And, you know, all of a sudden they've got the power in this dynamic. And it's just, I mean, it's stupid. Well, that's, you know, he says that in the movie and it's kind of becoming cliche now. but one of the guys says to your character, you know, like you got to stop taking care of us and you got to put your oxygen mask on, you know?

1:02:53And it's the idea of like, also like, you can admit you're struggling, like, and you're going to give these other people a chance to help you the way that you have helped them. Right. But it can be hard. It can be hard too, because we think we don't deserve it. Yeah. You know, we're not worth it. Like, I'm just, I'm a shitty person. If you only knew the things that I thought or whatever. And it's like, dude, I think the same things. And I don't love every thought that pops in my head, but that's just who we are. Well, that's the, again, the premise of the movie is these two strong alpha dudes, very different experiences, fundamentally are struggling with the same transition, the same issues.

1:03:37And they would never guess it. And neither of them can come out and say it. it's only because circumstances sort of throw them together, but it turns out that everyone's going through something. And in fact, a lot of people are going through the exact same thing as you. Yeah. And, and, and I hope as it came across, I recently watched the Barbie movie. Okay. Have you seen it? It's actually very good. It's, it's, it's not what I thought at all. Um, but as that movie for me, yes, there's a big element of, you know, the male, the patriarchy and feminism and all these things, but the way that it was written and the way that it was performed, the way that it was done spoke to me too.

1:04:22I spoke to a lot of people, I think, that wouldn't think that it would. And my hope with MVP was the same way in the reverse sort of, because it is a very sort of masculine story, you know, these two men. But I've had quite a bit, you know, quite a few women and not just veterans that connected to that and felt some of those similar, feel some of those similar things. And that was good. That was like, I mean, that was a big part of it for me. That was important because that means it's relatable. These people are now, this experience is now relatable to someone who thought maybe I would never be able to fully understand or even partially understand the experience of someone going to war, you know, or playing professional sports or whatever.

1:05:03Like, I just don't, it's not my world. It's not my people. I don't get them. And then now they're just like, oh wait, they're, they're very, very human. Her movie, Lady Bird, I think is one of the greatest movies of all time. It's great. Barbie's better. It's just - Well, it has made like a billion dollars. You gotta see it, man. It's just now, it's just the writing was, I mean, her and Noah Baumbach wrote that together. They're both brilliant. Um, but it was, uh, how to make that IP into what they created, I think is, is pretty amazing. I really do. All right. So as we wrap up, I wanted to ask you about the Kaepernick thing a little bit, because one of the things I think is so interesting about it is, and maybe this is a thing that's, I think a lot about from a sort of marketing and a strategy standpoint, which I talk about in some of my books, which is the, So the rightness of one's cause and the way one goes about it or the best way to get people on the side of said cause, I think people often all assume are the same thing, but they're not.

1:06:06And so what I think is so interesting about your sort of small role in this thing that became so big, one of the probably the biggest story in sports in a generation like people will be talking about in a long time, is you're talking about giving notes. You're sort of like, hey, you know, if you do it this way, the same thing, what you're saying and your cause is the same, but the way it's perceived is fundamentally different. and I, yeah, sure, sure. But I, I often wonder if he, if you guys had had that conversation before the protest had began, how differently the whole arc of the story might've even gone.

1:06:50Yeah, that's very interesting. No, I mean, yeah, that was a, that was a crazy, crazy time. It was, it was exactly a year after I got cut. Um, so it was a preseason of 2016 and it was also, uh, Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton. You know, that was, the election was in two months. Yeah. And all of this was sort of this perfect storm of division and chaos. And it's like, all right, everybody get to your sides, you know, and batten down the hatches and dig in, cause here we go. And then, you know, he starts sitting on the bench and I didn't even really know about it right off the bat. I caught wind of it through social media, you know, people just, and I understandably a lot of people that I'd followed, especially at the time, were of the veteran community, you know, and sports as well, but a lot of vets.

1:07:43And so there was a lot of anger and people that were pissed off and upset. And my initial reaction was very similar, just like, I'm a huge 49er fan, as I mentioned, and Kaepernick saved our team, our franchise, It got us back to the Superbowl. And I'm like, man, what, what is he? Why is he, he doesn't stand, he's not standing for the anthem. And like, does he even understand what it means to some of us in the military? And like, just these very, you know, sort of, I don't want to say selfish, but I guess just a very, very obtuse, you know, reaction to this because of just thinking of my experience and just focusing inward and just taking it all personal.

1:08:26Yeah. And so I started to read up on it a little bit and I was getting reached out to by, you know, all the like Fox News and MSNBC and CNN and you name it. They wanted me to come on and probably debate. Yeah. You know, why is he right? Why is he wrong? Whatever. And I'm like, I don't want to be a part of that. And I don't think that's going to help. And the Army Times had reached out, which nobody reads. To be fair, not that many people. That's not true. That's not fair. But they'd reached out and said, you know, would you write something? And I was like, I don't want to inject into this conversation.

1:09:05I don't think. And then they reached out again. And I kept getting, I had a lot of people reaching out. And guys I served with too that were like, you got to say something, man. You got to like get involved. And I think they all expected me to just be like, this is why you should stand, you know. And so I agreed. at the second time the army reached out or the army times reached out i agreed to write an open letter i said if you don't edit it if you just you know you can obviously give me your feedback when i send you it but so i wrote this thing like an hour and a half and it was just kind of explaining some of my experiences you know what uh what i had been a part of in the military i ended up one of the main reasons i joined is i went and did some relief work in the darfur before I joined the military.

1:09:53And that's what inspired me to not only serve, but become a Green Beret. And I wrote a bit about that. And, you know, our motto, De Oppresso Liber, to free the oppressed. That's something I've committed to doing when I enlisted. And, you know, I want to keep being a part of that. And the reason that these, you know, these symbols mean so much to us is because our relationship with them. You know, I carried my best friend's casket draped in an American flag. At the end of Seer School, when we were liberated, They play the anthem and I just, you know, I mean, it's a training, but it didn't feel like it in the moment.

1:10:26And so I'm very indoctrinated into these things. Right. But they do mean something to me. Something very special in what they stand for, what they are meant to stand for anyway, and what we fight for. And, you know, I sent the letter to them. They said, no notes. We're publishing it in the morning. I was like, okay. So they did. And I woke up and like my voicemail was full. my email was you know i blown up and a lot of sports writers had seen it and started sharing it so it just became quickly viral and uh i remember lance armstrong sent me a message strong it's like all he wrote and i never talked to the guy before and it was just it was cool um but also i was suddenly just like in a panic yeah just like oh my gosh what have i what have i done what have i gotten into most of it was very positive yeah but still i was like ah now I'm in the middle of this thing and, you know, and, and I don't, I'm not prepared.

1:11:19I'm not educated on this situation. And, you know, I understand, I understand at a very, understood at a very low level, like, you know, he was protesting. He was not standing during the anthem in protest of police brutality, racial inequality, social, social injustice, and these things, not the flag or the anthem specifically, which that was a narrative for a lot of people. um and you know i i get a call from nfl network and i've done some stuff with them in the past and they're like hey would you come on and um just sit down and have a conversation with lindsey rhodes one of our anchors today about you know the letter yeah and i'm like i mean if i'm gonna go on with anybody i'd go on with you guys because i know it's not going to be political yeah and i'm like i just just make just please protect me you know they're like no no no this is not like yeah you know we're very proud of you and we think it's good what you did so i'm in the green room getting ready to go on there and kaepernick's publicist called me and said hey colin read the letter and he wants to meet with you tomorrow um they're playing the chargers down in san diego it's the final preseason game he'd love to sit down with you before the game in the in the lobby of the team hotel and just yeah you know talk about it and i'm like is there going to be like camera there and stuff?

1:12:37It's like, no, no, no. He just genuinely wants to meet you and have a conversation. And I was like, okay. Also, I'm terrified, but I'm just like, yeah, sure. Got it. So I go to do the interview. And then the next morning I take an Uber down to San Diego because I had to fly here afterwards for something else. I go down there, I meet him in the lobby, you know, and Colin's a big dude. He's like six fives, got the Afro, he's jacked. And everybody recognizes him because he's been all over the news, especially recently. and we sit down this little coffee table and eric reed joins us another player for the 49ers who played for quite a while afterwards and it was like it was such a chill conversation for what was going on i mean it was an hour and a half or so of just these three guys like we're sitting in a locker room just talking about life and we laughed about stuff and you know there definitely was this element of like, man, this thing just blew up quick, you know, and, and, and, uh, and it wasn't like Colin was panicking in any way.

1:13:36I was panicking internally for sure. I don't know what he was feeling. I would not pretend to know what he was feeling, but you know, he was definitely very curious and had a lot of questions. And, and, uh, as we talked, he sort of asked and, and I, and I showed him some messages that I'd received from vets, you know, people that were like, hey man like i appreciate your letter but i just left the tarmac in seattle and you know um one of our brothers was unloaded from uh the plane you know in a coffin draped in the flag and i'm standing next to his wife and she's a mess so i just like anybody that disrespects our country i can't you know even though that was not colin's intent like that's how people were perceiving it to your point so i showed him that and he was very responsive to that you know it was just like wow like i don't i don't want people to feel that way i don't want to i don't want to be responsible for those kind of feelings um and uh and so he said well do you think there's another way i could protest that's not going to offend people in the military and i was like no there's nothing you can do that's not going to offend some people you know but if but also if you if he's you know this is something i sort of realized later but if it's like if you stop if you just all of a sudden just fall back in line and stand and then you're you're you're you're going to be absolutely um offending a lot of people that you know were were with you on this thing and and he committed he's a very committed person and he was just like i know i've committed to not standing i'm not going to but if you think there's something else i said well you know to me being alongside your teammates is important it would be the most important thing you're about to go out on the field with these guys and they all think differently some of them are with you on this some of them maybe aren't but you're putting that aside and working together towards something.

1:15:18And that's a great lesson the country needs to see right now. So I said, I think being alongside your teammates is the most important thing. And if you're committed to not standing, I would say taking a knee is the only thing that kind of makes logistical sense, you know, and people take a knee to pray and propose to their future spouse. And when a player on the field is hurt, they take a knee. And when I go visit my buddy, my best friend, Brad, who passed away. And, you know, like I said, I carried this man's casket, And this guy was like my hero. When I go visit, I take a knee in front of his grave and spend a moment or several moments with him.

1:15:52And I think it's a respectful gesture. Well, they're fundamentally different gestures. Sitting can feel petulant or a rejection. And kneeling is a sign of reverence or respect. But the fact that you're not doing what everyone else is doing still lodges the protest. Totally, totally. it's like a flag at half mast almost you know i almost saw it in that way and uh and he agreed and you know initially when we talked uh i considered uh i considered kneeling with him i thought it was something that was like if i'm if he's willing to adjust like this i feel like maybe you know maybe i should and then we talked about that and i was very uneasy about it and unsure.

1:16:41And as we were, you know, as he was going to get, you know, get on the team bus and all this, and I had went and I had to go talk to some of the Niners front office because I told him, Hey, look, he's willing to, to, to, to take a knee, you know, alongside the team and everything. But I told him I'd, I'd do it with him or I'd be along, I'd be there with him. and they said okay so you know we'll have you there and then you know i i i thought about and i talked to him i can't remember if i texted him or i yeah i think i must have texted colin and said like hey brother you know i'm gonna be with you next to you on the field and you know but i i think i'm gonna stand if it's okay i just don't know if i yeah you know i i i i i don't it's not that i disagree with what you're doing but it's like it's just a different situation it's a different your protest either it's also not my protest that's a very good point but it was just like i i i feel differently about these symbols and he was like you know you know all good you know see you out there or whatever i don't remember uh exactly but um so yeah so go down there you know and on the sideline game's about to start the anthem the anthem sung by um you know a black man in the Navy, you know, in uniform.

1:18:04It's like a couple weeks before 9-11 or maybe a week before. So it's like the 9-11 remembrance game in San Diego, which is a very military town. Navy SEALs are jumping in the stadium. There's a flyover, the whole thing. And so the anthem starts, him and Eric both taking the, I'm standing next to him with my hand in my heart. And the first thing I remember is the boo, all the boos from the crowd. and i was just like this is gross like how is that how is that not like incrementally more disrespectful yeah uh uh it just was i just didn't understand how like what he's doing is so bad but like that you know during the answer you're gonna boo like while it's being played if you're if you're really this patriotic and this means this much to you or whatever and uh yeah and then that that sort of caught you know it became something that a lot of people were doing and calling yeah and you know what colin uh stood for i guess knelt for initially sat for whatever you want to call it um is still something that's done i mean in like the premier league there's like players that do this yeah it's wild no i think i i we don't have to get into the whole um the claims of the protest, which I think he's largely right about.

1:19:22But I just think it's, I think it's important, not only first off that you, instead of, you know, taking your offense, you listened to the person and you helped them. Well, he listened to though. No, I mean, but vice versa, like you, instead of being, hey, I'm so offended, you said, well, what's this person trying to say? And then he was like, then you said what you had to say. And then he listened to what you had to say. And the two of you came together. I think there's something beautiful in that. But I think just also generally, just because you're right doesn't mean that just saying what you think is the way to change people's minds, right?

1:19:57Like I think, I just interviewed this guy, Paul Kix, who wrote this great book about the civil rights movement. But we were talking about this, like what Martin Luther King and all the activists really figured out was they figured out the symbols and the ideas and they co-opted them to reflect them back at the people who are not living up to the ideas, right? And, you know, there's a reason that the March on Washington ends at the Lincoln Monument, not some random steps of some church. Do you know what I mean? Like the symbolism of doing that in front of Lincoln was deliberate and intentional and incredibly powerful.

1:20:36Like you look at it and you just get the goosebumps. And so I think what I, take from that is just sort of not the main lesson, but as a lesson, which is the symbolism and the optics of what you're doing, they matter a great deal. And the tweak that you made, I think it did help a lot of people hear it that maybe wouldn't have heard it otherwise. As you said, some people are still very mad about it. But I think to go, oh, instead of, hey, this is a rejection of America. This is actually a solemn sort of protest that what this flag represents is not being lived up to. Those are two radically different statements, even though they're coming from the same place of dissatisfaction and objection.

1:21:24Right. And I want to make sure and hammer it home again to make it ultra clear that it was the change that he made or the adjustment that he made you know what i mean he could have kept saying i think what i think i'm doing what i'm doing i don't give a you know i don't give a fuck what you think about it which also is perfectly and legitimately entitled to do absolutely and would have been courageous in and of itself like right if you deliberately take the heat from like the entire world and the president the future president that's a ballsy move just in and of itself even if you're not right and i'm not saying he's not right but i'm just saying like yeah you take the whole heat of everyone that's that takes something yeah that willingness to the humility and willingness to adjust yeah is something that really got lost i think through this whole thing because it wasn't divisive you know i mean and it's not going to sell ad space you know so we're not going to talk about that but it's like that's a huge thing and i think the more people that have heard that you know have also listened in a different way they're just like okay well wow and and then it took unfortunately it took george floyd and this whole situation the protest for a lot of you know organizations companies to say like you know maybe we were wrong but you know that this whole like oh we stand with this now i'm like do you yeah yeah sure do you know are you just trying to you're trying to sell more chips well and also though i think credit to him too is like i'm not protesting i'm i'm protesting because i want people to see this and make a change so if the way that i'm doing it is not having the effect.

1:22:56I'm not just going to keep doing that thing. I'm going to tweak, right? Like if - Because my strong base isn't going to be the one to change this. It's going to be people that disagree with me that are going to be the ones I'm going to need to help make this change. Yeah, yeah. If they were like, hey, if you change the title of your movie, the audience would be 20 times better. You'd be an idiot not to change the title of your movie unless it was betraying the values that the movie was about. Right. And so the ability to sort of be flexible and dial it in, it's like, Hey, just this slight tweak, you know, radically opens it up or radically changes the optics of it.

1:23:30And then also just being right or having the moral high ground is not enough. You know, it's also the means of communication and is what you're doing, creating allies or is it just creating enemies? You know, that's a whole part. What is your goal? Are you genuinely trying to create change? Yeah, or you just flip the middle finger. Yeah, exactly. No, I think it's such a great story, man. And also, I think a reminder that like a little thing you do can end up becoming a huge part of your legacy, both for him and for you. Like you were just involved in this sort of sports changing, paradigm shifting thing because you like wrote an article.

1:24:10You know what I mean? And vice versa. Him, the decision, he's like, I feel this way about the world. I could just, I got enough on my plate being the quarterback of a, you know, having one of, you know, 32 jobs in, you know, and like I'm making millions of dollars and I got my own shit to deal with to be like, no, I'm going to do something about, I'm going to say something about this thing that I feel. That's also a big part of it. Yeah. And, and, and it's funny, like what I wrote was an open letter to Colin, but it wasn't for Colin. Right. It was for making up a number, the 80 % of the people kind of in the middle who, you know, whether you lean left or right, you have some reason about you that felt like I felt where it was just like, okay, like I totally see why he's doing what he's doing and, you know, and all this.

1:24:56And, and, and, and yes, these things are important to me, but like, I have to understand he has a very different experience than me. You know, he did not, he did not serve in the military. He came from a different background, totally different life. He's a person of color. I'm not all these things that I don't understand. And if I pretend to understand, that's just, I mean, it's, it's absolutely arrogant for me to like, no, to, to, to be this all knowing in this situation. And, and I think that that, I think that was, you know, that was the intent. It was just to speak to other people like me, to be like, Hey, look, like, this is how I feel, but you know, just look at it in these terms, Think of it in this way.

1:25:36And it's like, but then it ended up, it spoke to him too, which was cool. Yeah, totally. Man, this was awesome. Thanks so much. Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate it, brother.

1:25:54Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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