O.A.R.'s Benj Gershman on Turning Obstacles Into Opportunities

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1:22Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

2:07Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I'm going to take you way back, 2002, 2003. I don't know. But I was on AOL Instant Messenger. One of my friends would have been Jack or Chris Riley. I just saw Christopher when I was in Rotterdam to do my talk. He came out. He's a physicist who lives in Switzerland now. But growing up in Sacramento, California, I loved music. I played guitar. And one day I'm chatting with my friends. We went to different schools. And he's like, you got to hear this. He sends me this song, which he had obviously just downloaded from Napster or Morpheus or LimeWire, maybe Audio Galaxy.

2:51I forget. I just remember in high school and college, it was just this unending parade of file sharing services that would last for a couple months or a year and then get shut down. Anyways, he sent me this song. It was called Crazy Game of Poker by OAR. And it was a weird, unusual song. I never really got that into jam bands, but I like this band. And they had a bunch of good songs and I was really into them. You know, every once in a while, they'll come on my Spotify playlist or they'll come on something if I listen to music, my big folder of stuff. So it was crazy when my podcast producer sent me a note that this guy named Benj Gershman, the name didn't ring a bell, but she was like, he's the bassist in this band, OAR, maybe you've heard of him.

3:40And I was like, oh my God, I haven't heard that name in years. and he had come to the obstacle is the way in this dark, deep time in his life. And the crazy thing for me, we talk about this in the episode, he's not that much older than me. They were like basically in high school, right out of high school when this band was blowing up and they've been in this band now for like 30 years. So it was really cool to have him on the podcast. And I'm going to tell you something even crazier about it. When I was in college, so I'm not just, oh yeah, I heard this band. I'm playing up the story. When I was in college, the first writing I ever did that I was ever published I was ever paid for.

4:13It was for the college newspaper. And eventually they ended up giving me this column where I would write about tech things. And I was like, what am I going to call it? This is the era of Web 2.0, sort of an internet revolution. And I titled my column of a revolution. I didn't do the acronym, but I borrowed that from the name. That's what OAR stands for. So today's guest and I go way back, although we just met. And I think you're really going to like it. We talked about a bunch of things, talked about being a dad, talked about touring, talked about how the Stoics can help us as artists, as human beings, how the constraints of life and music, something that clientes talk about, can inform our writing.

4:54And then to bring this full circle and just a mind-blowing thing, after we finished recording, we said our goodbyes, binged, walked to the back behind the bookstore and got an Amor Fati tattoo from the new tattoo parlor that opened up right behind us benj has an awesome podcast you can listen to it's on mental health and support called what could be bad if you haven't listened to of a revolution you absolutely should you can follow him on instagram at benj gershman you could follow or at of a revolution on all the different platforms i think you're really going to like this episode he went through some dark times thought he maybe was never going to play music again and stoicism like maybe it's been for you, as it's been for me in many ways, it's kind of a guiding light, a guiding force.

5:40And I think this makes this a very special conversation. Let's get into it.

5:48So I feel like having you on is my way of making amends for having pirated so much of your music while I was in high school. Well, I should say thank you for doing that because we're like the opposite of the Metallica thing where it actually helped us launch our career. Yeah. I mean, I don't know it's funny because you had some songs later that blew up like on radio yeah and you know streamed like large numbers yeah but i don't know how the early stuff i would have found it any other way sure like there was no what other medium would would want to have discovered the music i mean cassette tapes or maybe some cds i mean we started selling cassette tapes out of our backpacks and And we fortunately were around when Napster was blowing up and we're high school kids going into college.

6:35Yeah. We had this program where people would basically purchase a case of 30 CDs for a discount, get to make whatever profit they wanted. Reselling them? Yep. And then, and so then it was right when Napster was happening. And so these are, you know, friends of ours from high school. We grew up in a relatively affluent area. People were going all over the United States and bringing it with them. And so then if you can imagine all those little fireworks in the different college towns happening, and then that spreading out from there is really what got us moving around the country. I mean, I remember I was a freshman at Ohio State, and I was getting flown to Arizona for shows, and it was just crazy.

7:14But I mean, even like buying a bootleg or whatever, you're not going to buy it unless you've heard it somewhere, right? And so they were like, how long is Crazy Game of Poker? It's like an eight-minute song or something, right? Yeah, one of the versions. And I think there's some that are probably over 10 minutes. That was never going to be on the radio. Never. That was never going to be a music video. And so if it wasn't, like, I think about this with books all the time. Like, what you're asking someone to do to check out a book is kind of insane. You're like, it's$28 as a hardcover. And you have to read, which is like, not easy for people.

7:50And it takes a long time. So how do people find it? And it's not like there's radio for books or you hear it in the car driving by and go, what's that? Or you hear it in a store. You're like, what's that? The mechanism of discovery is the main impediment for so many different things, whether you're making something or you're doing art. And so there was that period, yeah, where I guess piracy was kind of the only way that you would, you could reduce the discovery costs and get scale of things that were not necessarily super mainstream. Totally. And I think the catalyst, the connective tissue of that is really the human connection.

8:32It's like somebody telling you, you should download this or you, you know, somebody, you know, giving you that heads up is actually the inspiration. Yeah, let me send this to you on AOL Instant Messenger or whatever. Yeah, totally. Oh, I mean, that's basically the world back then. And then it slowly crept into a MySpace thing, you know, and then Facebook came around and it was just all these new mediums of passing digital sound to people or digital anything. Well, what's weird is I vividly remember you not being new, right? Like, yeah. And I was in high school, I guess what, like 2001 to 2005.

9:03But it's crazy to me, like I was reading about it. It's like, yeah, you weren't new, but that was forever ago. I have a hard time even saying it out loud. I was talking to a friend about it because we're coming up on 30 years as a band. And even longer that like our drummer and singer, Chris and Mark, they've known each other since they were born. Their parents were friends. So, you know, my next door neighbor was Mark's first cousin. So like we've known each other for a really long time in life. And it's just, you know, it's not the norm for bands. I mean, usually bands are breaking up after a few years or something like that.

9:37So we've been we recognize like that. It's a good fortune that this has worked out. But the amount of time that we've been able to be a band, but also, you know, learn through that to take that experience and impact communities as we go. You know, we really take it to heart that we have an opportunity to, you know, send a good message out there besides just the music, but do things through the music. I remember there was some software very briefly when I was in college. and it was this thing where if you were on the dorms internet and someone else was on the door like that everyone who was on the dorms internet that had iTunes you could just take any of their music like if you use this thing yeah it would just put all everyone like a shared library yeah it was just like a shared library of everyone and so you think about these people come from all over the country you go to this place and they're all living together yeah and music is like the thing that you're into at that time but yeah it was like you could just take from anyone's library anytime i still have some of those songs yeah how do you listen to your music mostly spotify i think uh because even though i have it it's like at this point i've i've stopped taking it like i just got a new phone i'm not gonna find all my music and put it on the device because like yeah totally i can just get it and weirdly i know that since i already paid for it or didn't pay for it, that when I'm streaming it, at least it benefits the artist in some infinitesimal way.

11:02Infinitesimal is the actual word. Yeah, it's very small. But I mean, yeah, like listening to the song that I bought eight years ago doesn't help anyone. So now I think I mostly just stream. Yeah. And Spotify serves the purpose in the sense of it's connecting you with the music, it's connecting you with the artist. I don't think it's like a very viable long-term solution for artists to maintain careers. However, it's like, it's an amazing thing that we have access to the world history of music at the touch of a button. And, you know, I'd probably rather, you know, have the memory of my phone filled up with pictures of my family, my dog and my band, than like a bunch of songs that I could just stream or download temporarily.

11:45Well, yeah. And then that's like some file naming system from 2003 is like still in there, You know, it's like all confusing. And then just stupid stuff I downloaded that I thought was funny. And then it just comes, I'm like in the middle of a run and it's like, is this a Budweiser commercial? Why did I download that? Or Turkey Boys or something weird, weird, hilarious thing is on there. Yeah. I remember that like whole, like the Napster thing for me was a trip because I remember we were getting interviewed about it and like, isn't this like hurting you? Isn't this a bad thing? We're like, we love it.

12:20Like, this is great. Yeah. You can see why in retrospect, Metallica, then one of the biggest bands in the world, was upset about it. Yes. If Napster had come around 20 years earlier, they would have had a different relationship to it because they were a band that grew also through mixtapes and bootlegs. Ironically, they were still selling out huge stadiums and things like that. But I certainly understand the point that it's a loss of revenue and that it's not how the industry had been for so many years. but that also I think makes you kind of work a little harder to carve out your niche and at least for us in the live arena it was the idea of like we need to be better performers so people will want to come see a show because that's the like really the only place left to make enough dollars to sustain a career so that's how we looked at like you know we need to cut our teeth on that and make a career out of it well and also I do find on Spotify like I hear about live shows that I would, unless I'm going to subscribe to like some Ticketmaster email, I'm not going to know they're around.

13:22Or if I happen to be driving by the venue, which sign flashes that they're coming to town. Like that's, that's how I hear people are in town. That's cool. We're on tour because it says it at the top. Yeah. If you're listening to the artists, it'll say, or like, you know, their algorithm will bring artists that you probably like because of that. Yeah. I enjoy that too. I've actually caught a couple of bands because of that in my area i live in like in the california like san diego okay yeah encinitas and it's it's like there's not a ton of shows that go through there so anywhere i can get a heads up about it i get that heads up yeah we also will like if we really want music we find it like you know if you're a passionate person about tunes like you're gonna find new songs or you're gonna ask the people you've always asked what are you listening to what are you into but that is interesting so So, you know, basically from the jump, the recording of music was not going to be your main form of revenue as a band.

14:18I don't think we knew that. I think we had to figure that out because when you start doing it, it was also we were like we were just performing for friends at parties at local cafes that would like there's some really terrible stories of selling alcohol to minors like our high school buddies and all that. But that's how we built. And then we started realizing like, we can't just go into a studio and record a live track and expect that to stand up on the radio. So we began working with professionals who guided us through that. And like, I can still remember how difficult the process was the first time, you know, when we had pro tools and there's a click track and God bless our drummer, Chris, for like dealing with that because it was totally out of our wheelhouse.

15:00But now he's made it an art for himself to be, you know, to practice at and to work at. so we can do that. We just, we learned that the revenue from that as a business isn't necessarily going to sustain us. However, it's a vehicle where you can then, you know, if you get the songs out there, like we had a, we're, you know, we've worked on a song called Shattered for a while with a guy named Matt Wallace. And we had some help with the mixing, Rob Cavallo worked with that and Mark wrote a tremendous song in that. And when that got going, we saw how that translated to the live environment. So we began to retune our thoughts of like, maybe we should be trying to create music that can live in the, you know, in that world that will bring people to the shows.

15:43And then we can hopefully make fans like we have that are coming back, you know, 20 years later now with like children of theirs, which is really beautiful, like to see families enjoying our music together. And I mean, that goes for generations up and down of a friend out in Colorado who brought his 94 year old, his mother you know and she said it was the best concert she's ever seen like after that many years you know that's a real compliment hopefully yeah hopefully yeah no i i i'm just thinking that it forces you when you know like when you know that you know sort of recorded music that the old record business is not going to be what it was for you it forces you to become a really good live act because you know that's ultimately where that's where the funnel is leading like that's ultimately where you're collecting the the money that you've earned on the music that people have found through a variety of means most of which probably not paid yeah there's that and then there's also that like the connection with people in that environment is a lot more intimate and personal and what we always have wanted to do is make people feel better like Like Mark always says, we want people feeling better when they leave than they felt when they got there, which is the general vibe of an OAR concert.

17:02And for us, like that really was a special thing to see like happening. And so knowing that if we could keep having that conversation with each other, where we actually like, you know, fine tuned it and could read each other's thoughts almost and know how somebody is going to play, the show gets tighter and it gets stronger. And then that message is new every time. So we've managed somehow to keep it fresh at most of the shows over these years. But that must be weird. How does it feel playing a song that you wrote in middle school or high school? Or, you know, like you've been playing some of the same songs for 30 years.

17:40Yeah. How does that feel? Great. Yeah? Yeah, I love it. I mean, we're playing music that we created. Yeah. You know, it's like, do you still enjoy, you know, sharing passages from some of the books that, you know, you wrote a while ago? Well, I just, in this room, I just had to re-record the audiobook of The Obstacle is the Way. Oh, cool. And it was an excruciating experience. Oh, well, in that case. No, no, that's why I'm curious what it feels to you. Yeah. Because obviously I like the book. I think it stands up well. But there is something awkward about seeing the earnestness of your younger self and the limitations that you clearly had and the way that you would do it differently now.

18:20Yeah. Well, in that case, we don't play the songs the exact same way. Like there's verse, chorus, verse, chorus, whatever, that stuff. But like we have adapted versions. We change tempos. We have different sections that will go into musical parts. We change solos. Everybody's reacting to each other live. I've also, you know, like there's things that we'll, you know, do ahead of time, you know, like segues from song to song. We'll write new parts. So there's a whole bunch of ways that we do it, not only to keep it fresh for the audience, but for ourselves. Because to your point, like, yeah, there's things like the way I played the bass line to Hey Girl on our second album annoys me.

18:58So I don't play it like that anymore. And, you know, we've learned to alter things in a way that I think just keeps it feeling great for ourselves. And we think if that resonates with us, then because it started resonating with others back then, it'll continue to grow and resonate and hopefully continue to put on a new, better show. Well, it's an interesting challenge because, yeah, there's something that it clearly resonates with other people about. And so you can't change everything. Right. But if you're just doing it the same way over and over again, like what was the point of growing and getting better?

19:29And I think that's what I was going through when I was redoing Obstacle. It was like, there's so much I want to change, but then I have to leave the form in place. And why fix something that isn't broken? I'm the only one that has the big problem with it. Yeah. I get it. And like, also there's something about art, which is like the constraints of it. You have to finish. You write a three minute song and then you're like, well, what if we had this? What if we had this? What if we had this? At some point it just becomes too long and you lose what made it great. So when I was redoing it, it was like, okay, I decided to write this like new forward that was sort of updating like my experience.

20:06And now I'm like, then I'm sitting here reading the audio book and now I'm like forward, preface, introduction. I'm like reading, I'm like, when the fuck is this book going to start? You know, like, so you want to add and change, but you can't because there's something about the urgency of however you did it as your younger self that you have to maintain. Yeah, there's that. And I think with literature, there's a finite nature to it where music is maybe a little different and malleable. Yes. And I liken live performances as opposed to recorded music to like taking a picture, right? Like you're, it's, it's like a moment you're capturing.

20:39Sure. And so I've always felt like you have this opportunity to continue to update like in the moment. And sometimes like you plan that, but sometimes, oh, the drummer like played a different little hi-hat groove and I can like go here with this note. And, you know, it's all circumstantial. Yeah. Have you guys remastered any of your stuff? I think that's so interesting. You know, what we did was we released an album called XX where we, it was at our 20 year mark where we took a bunch of the songs that we wanted to rerecord and kind of put them back together. and update a little bit. Yeah. You know, and we put a couple new songs on that one as well.

21:14But we, you know, like we're slowly gathering back all of our publishing from the record deal. So at some point we're going to have it all. And that's kind of like, I think when we would really go back through a lot of the stuff and do that. But we've been re-releasing vinyl records slowly or surely over the years, kind of like an annual or maybe every two years sometimes, just because we see like the physical medium being a very special piece of art. Well, now it's like a totem or a manifestation of something. Like people buy vinyl records that don't have record players. Right. Like you're buying it just to be like, I like this, it's cool.

21:50Yeah. We used to have a vinyl record store and we still sell some next to the bookstore. But like the guy that ran the store, he would say like, I don't sell vinyl records. I sell the experience of shopping for records. Yeah. And you're like, oh yeah, you're just out. You just had breakfast and then you're looking around. you don't need the record yes you could listen to it so many easier better ways you're just like i like that band this is 40 years old i want to own that totally and but there's people you know like that have the vinyl record player like my my buddy just had a birthday and i i got a kid named waylon and i got i went shopping with waylon at his first record store experience actually the shirt i'm wearing lose records in encinitas it's like the real deal record store experience and i went in there and talked to the owner like hey you got any good wayland you know and he's like my kids like looking around at all these records like not knowing half of them or whatever but the experience of actually like touching music i think is a really special thing and that's why people are that's what bookstores are also yeah you can get it cheaper and faster on amazon oh yeah but you're walking you decided to go to a bookstore you want the experience of going to a bookstore yeah i actually spoke with a friend before we came here who i think we have in common And we were talking about the physical nature of art and how it's important to, you know, support the artists in some way, whether it's buying a ticket or going to the bookstore, you know, you know, merchandise or whatever, the vinyl record like that.

23:12That is a part of it, you know, and I feel like there was like a 15, 20 year period where people were so excited about the digital medium and the streaming, you know, that it kind of fell to the wayside. But now it's, I think, becoming apparent that like the streaming services like Spotify, we're seeing that like, there's nothing really going in the artist's pocket that is substantial, unless maybe you're like, you know, a Beyonce or Taylor Swift. And even then they're so big that it's actually not significant to them either. Yeah, exactly. But like that revenue to someone who's trying to come up, like that would make a difference.

23:45Yeah. Yeah.

23:53Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

24:38We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean, not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

25:17Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at the Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that, but I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence.

26:01My wife introduced me to Dr. Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for Good Inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It Over the Holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr.

26:38Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being. And Daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events.

26:58Now, speaking of songs evolving and your perspective of it, what's that famous Cat Stevens song, the father and son one? Cats in the Cradle? Is that it? Yeah, I think it's originally another artist. I don't think that's it. That's not it? No. No. That's a father singing to his son. Father and son. There we go. Oh, okay. So I just heard a version of that song. So he recorded that 50 years ago or whatever. It's that famous song. And then what he ended up doing was he re-recorded... He's now older than the father in the song. Oh, wow. So he re-recorded it. So the original recording that he did whenever he did the song is him, young Cat Stevens or Yusuf Islam.

27:40But I guess he was Cat Stevens then. And then now he re-sang the song, but as an old man. That's cool. And so he's having this like duet with himself. Yeah. And it's the same song, right? And the same person in more ways than one. And yet everything is completely different. Yeah. Because he, as a young man, he's writing the song. He doesn't have kids. He doesn't appreciate the father's perspective. All he can think about is how the father's holding him back. And now he has kids. He's that age. He has an empathy for the older position and still understands the younger position. And it's captured in that moment in time.

28:24It's like an incredible meta work of art. Totally. The beauty of life experience personified in a song. But the same lyrics, just how it's sung is different. And the way that like a cover, you know, the Johnny Cash version of Hurt is a totally fucking different song. It is. Yeah, it really is. And I mean, that's a good example of somebody like putting a stamp on it in a way that's like a departure, but like the essence of it remains the same. And I think that's a really special one as an example. I was just watching Interstellar and there's that moment where the daughter Murphy contacts the dad.

29:02The books? no well about the books was a big part of that movie but like no i meant when she's like put when he's pushing the books off the shelf it's when he had told her that she was going to be back by the time they were this she was his age and then she's finally his age and she's like you're not back and she was upset but meanwhile yes the books were coming through and that was his love through gravity you know going through space time and all that which was an excellent incredible message uh but to me it's it's very similar to that idea of like having the ability to see both perspectives later in life.

29:33Yeah, I was just listening to Zadie Smith talk about something like that, where she was, it's like, obviously there's an enormous gulf between like rich and poor or white and black or this nationality and that nationality, man or woman. But she was saying the interesting thing about age is that old people have been young and young people will be old. And yet still there is this, it's a lack of understanding, even though the old people have been young, they've just forgotten. And then there's a lack of empathy from the young towards the old to imagine that one day they will be in that exact position.

30:07Yeah. And yet that like explains like so much of our conflict and disagreement as a civilization is that conflict between young and old. Yeah. I think like if I can remember back when I was young and like, I'm not going to be like that, you know. I hope I die before I get old. Yeah. I mean, I used to have a complex about I wasn't going to make it past 27. and like yeah exactly and and then i hit it and i was like okay now what you know and i think we all just constantly are like trying to get out of our own way you know the mindset of the time we're in the experiences we've had but like you you lose some of that perspective because it becomes so far away from the now of your life yeah and it's it's like something i've learned through a lot of my health journey stuff like that i i really have to not only continue to like look at where I want to go, but take account of what I've had to go through to be where I am.

31:03Yeah. It's been, it was weird doing the new edition of the book realizing like I'm, well, first off I thought I was like, okay, I'll just make these changes and then we'll just have AI like plug in. Like if I put in two words in this sentence or I added a sentence, you should be able, you can train AI models on like, if you have seven hours of audio, you can just plug in the seven hours of audio and then just type in what you want it to say and it can match it pretty well. and I thought it would be able to do that or I thought I'd just be able to record pickups. Like I'll just read the new sentences and like the new forward, you plug it in.

31:36But they were like, no, no, no, you can't do that. And I thought they were just being lazy because what publishers do, I'm sure it's record labels too, is you're like, I'd like to do this. And they're like, let us tell you all the ways that that's simply not possible. And it's actually totally possible. They just don't want to do it. Like it's just hard. So they just lie and say, you can't do something. And then if you don't, if you're not confident enough, or delusional enough or combative enough, you don't actually know where the limitations are. And so I was like, what are you talking about?

32:04Of course this is possible. I know this is technologically possible. Let's just do it. And they were like, no, you need to listen to this. And so they sent me, they were like, when was the last time you listened to the audio book that you recorded in 2013? And I was like, I don't know if I ever have. And so when I listened to it and I was like, who is this person? My voice is different. Yeah. Like 10 years of speaking and traveling and podcasts and life. The way you use your voice, the way. Yeah, I understand. Even just one season of doing my pod is like I've found a new way to talk. Yeah. Not even like the tone of your voice, but how you intonate and how you just get.

32:41It's just a thing I now have thousands of hours of experience doing. I'm like, oh, this person's bad at doing it. I don't want to. I don't want to just update. So I had to rerecord it, but just hearing that voice and going, oh, that was a 24 year old who thought that he knew things. Yeah. And now I'm a 37 year old. I think I know some things, but like I have both a revulsion towards the certainty and the superficiality of that person. And you have all of your experience and knowledge and skills. Totally. My, my thing is to just like embrace, right. To, to submit to like, that's where I was at and it's okay.

33:17It's not, you know, not how I would choose to necessarily be in certain things and ways now in my life. And that's kind of the perspective I'm lucky, I think, to have now, you know, that I didn't have then. Then I was, you know, more headstrong and combative and confrontational and all that stuff. yeah yeah i think so and i think i was like more angsty like just in general like now i'm just like very like you know passively happy with like things that i get to do because it's finally come around where i'm like cognizant of how fortunate this is and you know growing up i was the troubled kid i was like you know battling against things that didn't need to be battled against in like affluent suburbs of maryland and all that you know and now it's just i've been lucky to be in a band for all these years.

34:04I survived a whole bunch of stuff for, you know, things that my family and band and friends, everybody supported me. It was crazy. And like, I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but now it's helped me shape my side. Yeah. And I mean, that whole process was, was a thing of like acknowledging like, like that you, like sometimes you have to just submit to a process that you don't want, you know, but you know that the end result will be good, but that whole medium of time will just completely like, it's like something, I don't know, it's like you're in like a coma or something like that and you can't control it.

34:41You know what I mean? You're just there, but you know, your body needs to heal. You know, your mind needs to heal all those things. I mean, obviously there's some people you meet and then they change so much and you're like, well, it's sad. You watch someone sort of betray principles or become very different. But then we also hear people go like, oh, what would, you know, the 16 year old version of me would kick the shit out of this person, you know? And you're like, why do you care what a 16 year old thinks? You know, like you should, if you're not changing, that's sad and weird. Totally. I mean, I think that's what we're here to do is to grow, to listen, to learn, you know, to adapt to the things that we feel are like important for us.

35:20So, um, yeah, I'm with that too. Like I've, I've made it a point to like, that's, that's how I'm trying to live the rest of my life is just to keep learning and changing. Like, I don't want to be the same guy, you know, at all. But that would be weird being in a band. It's like this with marriage, I guess, and with kids too, but it must be strange. Like, yeah, you've been in a band with these people for 30 years, but they're different people and you're all different people. So like, it is that process of changing and evolving and then having to be in relationships with new people because everyone's being remade constantly.

35:57And so that must be, there's a familiarity, but it's not the same group that you met in middle school. Yeah. I mean, I think for us, like we've changed together and we've, because it's been so personal and close, like we've been a part of each other's changes. And like in a marriage, like hopefully you grow together. And there's certainly been things that go on that are, you know, like brothers fight and stuff like that. but like we're still here and the goal is to like do it till we die i think you know and that's like a beautiful thing if we can pull that off i mean this weekend you know we we're at a ocean's calling festival tim sweetwood and and mark and jerry from our band like a bunch of team members put this incredible festival together but i got to watch the beach boys play wow and you know there's two of the original members in their 80s and they're like traveling more this year than our band is They're doing like 180 dates or something like that.

36:51And they were so happy. And so like, just like, it looked like they were grateful to be there. And that's like a goal, I think, is as a person, as a band, you want to get to a point where like, you know, you're those old, like Mark calls it a troubadour, like the George Strait song. He wants to be the old troubadour who's still singing songs. And I think we all want to be up there together and, you know, impacting the people who get to hear these stories he's singing about and feel the music. Is there kind of an addiction to being on the road though? I mean, to be doing 180 shows with 80 after having been in the band for 60 years, there's something beautiful and inspiring about it.

37:33And then there's this other angle where you're like, is it ever enough? Can you ever walk away? How do you, you know, there's something - Enough is a good word. Yeah, I think about that word a lot in life, you know, and I think it's probably different for everyone. I think for us, where we're at in our lives right now, we want to spend more time at home with our families. You know, we've all got kids. I think we've come to a point with our business where we know that we can do a certain amount of business that not only, you know, makes us happy, but satisfies, you know, the audience and makes them happy.

38:06And, but there's also that push pull of supply and demand and sort of all that stuff with, you know, working with best way to launch a tour. And we've learned some hard lessons over the years and, you know, we miss some years with COVID and all that, you know? And so it's, it's just one of those things, I think for some bands, they might need it, you know, to like survive, you know, financially, or some bands might just be addicted to it. Yeah. The Rolling Stones, it's like at some point, what is making you do it? You know, it's like, you love it. And I'm not judging because I go through it too.

38:39I was thinking about this like with my own thing is like the years basically I thought my calendar was booked and then like a couple things came in last minute and then I was like I don't need it I wasn't planning on doing it and I don't really want to do it and yet saying no is hard because I think every entertainer artist entrepreneur has that little part of your brain that's always thinking at some point they're not going to ask anymore like at some point it goes away so that that sort of scarcity or insecurity of it, it drives you. And then you're 80 and you're still doing hundreds of shows.

39:12There is that part of you that like, maybe you can just never turn it off. Yeah. I think you kind of get used to having some sort of relevance to the culture of music or the culture of the people that listen to your music and you want to be able to continue to relate. I think that's sort of like that connective tissue of humanity that you get used to having like a friend group you know you want to be in touch with your friends or like my wife's in a book club she wants to continue to relate to the girls that she cares about and like have these discussions that are meaningful and an escape from her career and all that stuff too and i think to that point like going on tour is a bit of an escape from like the the home lifestyle that we we get to lead outside of the band as individuals but when we go out there it's you know we're like we pretty much just do summer tours now and it's like summer camp like we're out there where we can like sleep in, you know, like it's just like, there's no kids, uh, for the most part, like waking us up, screaming and doing whatever, you know, it's a different thing, which we, you know, we appreciate, but we all certainly miss the other side.

40:13You know, that's a whole thing is like, you know, I waited so late in life. I met the right person at the right time and got settled down and I've got a kid right now. And like, I love, he's five, you know, and he's, he's just tremendous. And I love being around him and it's hard to leave, but like, can't pay the bills if I don't go on tour, you know, like that's a, that's a part of my life now. So COVID must've been nice in the sense that you got like a big chunk of time that you maybe ordinarily would have been on the road for. Yeah. It was the hiatus that we had always talked about taking. However, like it was, it was nice for that.

40:47But like what happened to me is I got long COVID and I had a resulting autoimmune disease and became disabled for a year. So not so nice. Well, it was nice because I was around, but I couldn't engage. Like I had some very serious health issues that took, you know, it was the better part of two years to resolve the physical. And then I had a resulting bunch of like PTSD and mental health issues, which is why I started a podcast to focus on elevating and destigmatizing mental health conversations. And it was really like a very tricky pandemic for me because I was actually, the irony of that, and this is like maybe part of like how we should all live in the moment.

41:23So I was so concerned with getting more sick from COVID. I didn't realize I already had it. And that would already set off a chain reaction of autoimmune issues. And so like, I was so worried, like - You're avoiding a thing you already had. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. So it was a lesson in itself, but like it helped me to appreciate the identity that I had already had, but I was able to get back to, you know, and it's not like I have an ego about being that person, I don't think, you know, it's just more that I love that life. And it's also being a part of my family. I couldn't even like pick up my one-year-old kid at the time and that kind of stuff.

41:59It was a whole tricky time. And, you know, God bless my partner. She's, she's amazing and helped me kind of like deal with that. And part of it was like, when I found out how long part of the healing of it was, it was like, you know, I never had to do something like that where it was like, okay, it's going to take a year to like, be able to like, even go and do some personal training. Like I had to go through physical therapy and occupational therapy. Well, the powerlessness of it is interesting. I think, yeah, even for me, like for people who aren't on the road a lot, maybe you can't understand it, but there is some part of you that's never, you're never home long enough to fully be home.

42:40So you always kind of have one foot in and out because you're like, well, I'm going to be gone in two weeks or I'm going to be gone for two weeks. So you're home, but you're not like fully absorbed into the rhythm of this life that exists. That's right. And is always going on. And so, yeah, you could take a month off, you could take two months off, you could take a year off and you think, but because that escape valve or that process is still there. So like, I think for, I was looking at it, like we, my family, we went some places, like we drove places during COVID, but we stayed together for like 500 consecutive nights or something.

43:17And I'll never probably do that again in my life. But the rhythm of that much time, it changes you because it's so different than your normal rhythm of like, look at a calendar in three weeks, I got to go on the road. So you got to start packing, you got to start thinking, you got to start preparing. Totally. It's like whether for me, it's whether or not I put the suitcase away. Yes. You know, and if it's a way I feel like I'm actually settling in, then ironically, I'm like, like rarely doing that. Whereas like my wife, the instant she gets home, the suitcase is like unpacked, everything's unfolded, like hung up and all that.

43:49And it's, it's like a mental construct that I have now of like, I'm just used to going out, you know? And so it's just something I think when I get home, I'm almost not like believing that I can actually settle back in. And actually when I go home later today, it's the first time I actually have more than two weeks at home since May, you know? So it's, it's like, I'm really excited and ready, but you also, I'm already thinking about the next one. Totally. Like, what do I need to do while I'm home? What's the honey-do list? You're catching up or you're storing up for the next time. And so there is this, it's almost like being in this kind of heightened, like, fight or flight thing.

44:28Yep. That's a good way to put it. I never thought of it like that. If you listen to the Bob Cedar song, Turn the Page, there's a Metallica cover also that's very good. I think I've heard the Metallica cover. Yeah, but it's about like a guy on the road. It's about a musician on the road. And you could just, yeah, there's just kind of this like alienation, half one step removed from the plane that everyone else is operating on and you just get into that place. Yeah. I, I love it. You know, I love, I love what we get to do, but yeah, it would be nice to feel like I was actually going to stay home, be home and, and like not have a thing, uh, where I was like bouncing out again.

45:04But that's also like, it makes you, when you have those moments, it makes you really like hold onto them and love them. Like, you know, I'm going to get home tonight. And my, like before hopefully my kid comes home from his afternoon activities and I can already like feel the joy that like of him, like running through the front door, you know, and all that. So, I mean, it's all like part of what I get to do, you know, and I'm happy about it. It's just, uh, it's definitely like, uh, a trickier living in the now than when you get that 500 day routine. Yeah. When it goes away and you do slot into that rhythm, you realize how unnatural the normal one is and how the toll it's taking on you, like the mental health toll of sleeping in different beds.

45:51Yeah. The fake conversations. I try not to have those. I'm like a no fluff kind of guy. for the book. But yeah, like, I'm so bad at like, you know, you go to the venue or the place or whatever, and then they're like, hi, I'm so-and-so. And you're like, you want to connect with this person, but you also are never going to connect with them ever again. And you're just like, I met you three days ago in a different city doing a different thing. And so there's like, they're not aware of the falsity that you're feeling, but you're carrying it. And so there's just kind of a psychic baggage. Yeah. I think that can be there.

46:22And that has been there for me in my lifetime. And this weekend, I watched something happen that was like the opposite of that. That made me realize some of these connections and moments can actually come back years later. We do a lot of work with Chef Robert Irvine, who does things for veterans. And he brought his Breaking Bread with Heroes program to Ocean's Calling Festival to say thank you to the first responders. And we were watching, it might have been the Beach Boys concert. Either the Beach Boys or after them, The Killers played. Wow. Such a great show. Like, it was, yeah, it was awesome.

46:53Yeah. pyro and everything. It was like top notch. So anyway, this person comes up to the sort of artist bar that was on the side of the, you know, the grounds. And I mean, we were fortunate. There was like 50 ,000 plus people at this festival. It was crazy. And you know, this guy comes up, he's like, chef, chef, please come here. And we're up on a thing watching the stage and there's the grounds of the beach or down there. Like people were actually on the beach in ocean city, Maryland. And this guy has a picture of his daughter and chef. Okay. And chef was like noticeably younger. And he's like, Hey, you know, you took this picture with, you know, my, uh, my daughter like 12, 14 years ago, you know, and, and I wanted to say thank you because she still talks about it.

47:35And it was, it was a moment and he remembered the person and like where they took it and all that stuff. And so I've kind of been processing that. I also had a, like on the podcast first season, I talked to Flavor Flav and he was like, he said, you never know like how deep those connections are gonna be, even if it's five seconds. And he actually put it in the opposite, where is like, if you're not your best self and really like try to connect with the people, they might be like, F you, I've waited my whole life for this moment. And it might not mean anything to you, but I'm gonna remember this forever.

48:11So he impressed upon me to really take that to heart, that every little thing should, even if you're not like thinking you'll be able to remember it, to like really grasp it and wholeheartedly appreciate that you get to say hello and thank you to somebody or whatever it is. So I kind of have the process in that. There's a weight to that. You have to carry around and then it's not normal. And then you go back to your normal life and only, it's like, it's only when things are quiet, you realize it's how loud, you know, a city is or something. and and so i was just thinking about the mental health thing it's just it takes a toll on there is that for sure like when you're popping in and out of places and you know like you don't know in a hurry are we gonna catch this are we gonna make this what about this where's the suit there's just like just a constant stress yes absolutely and sleeping in parking lots doesn't help you know like that's that's a whole other thing like you know you're on a bus trying to rest like i've realized how important rest is in my life now when i don't rest well like everything's off.

49:13And tour is tough because like majority of nights you're driving while you're sleeping. And for me, like, you know, you always want your, if people don't know this and they sleep on a bus ever, like you want your feet facing forward in case there's an accident, like you want your feet to take the impact, obviously not the back of your neck or head or anything. So, but when the bus comes to a stop, you kind of like, it's like Dracula, you know, like you just kind of rise up a little bit and that wakes me up every time. It's just like a natural thing i mean we've had a couple close calls out there on the road and i've had to like you know like anytime i feel that like i it's almost like a like you have a stress response yeah fight or flight kind of thing like is something wrong yeah and so that over time like over the tour you just you're like chipping away at your kind of like base energy level

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51:09So was there a part for you that you thought music was going to, or a point for you where you thought music was going to go away, like you weren't going to be able to play anymore? Yeah, I couldn't play for a while. My thing was my thyroid was so off. I was, I had like almost no thyroid hormone production. and so then the doctor not going to name names over prescribed me it was a naturopath and she basically gave me a dose immediately that was almost 100 percent over what the correct dosage ended up being and so i went from hypothyroid to hyper which is your system becomes toxic with hormone and so i went from you know having about six seven months of trying to figure this out then identifying it but dealing with it incorrectly yeah and so then i had to go to an endocrinologist And I ended up like, you know, in that process, I couldn't really walk.

51:56I couldn't pick up my kid. I had like tachycardia issues with my heart and like, I couldn't squeeze things. I couldn't hold stuff. So I couldn't play the bass. So I had to learn to use my hands again. And so, yeah, I was concerned about losing my identity. And then after all that, yeah, it had a whole bunch of like traumatic, like stress disorder are issues that I I'm still, to be honest, dealing with and realizing sometimes a little late that I'm, I'm going through one again or, and you know, like, yeah, it's a whole thing. You know, I can imagine. Plus it's, you're not just, Hey, I, this is a thing I do and I love doing it and it's a joy, but you're also like, it's my fucking job.

52:37So you're, there's a tricky thing where when you're, your identity, your success, your paycheck, it's all tied up in this thing that is very fickle, like an injury could take it away. The market could take it away. You get canceled. You know, there's all these things that could just. Absolutely. It's a hard thing to rely on something so much. And maybe that's part of why I thought that would be a good idea to do something else also with the pod. And it's, it's been really enjoyable, but yeah, like the other part of it is like the idea that like, I have a responsibility or a role to a group. That is a big part of what I was going to just share with you since we're getting to meet is, you know, in the obstacle is the way.

53:21I'll read it if you don't mind, because it was a big thing. Hopefully my little sticker didn't fall out of here. Here we go. There were two things in particular that like hit me, besides like the love of fate and accepting it, is the obstacle in the path becomes the path. Never forget within every obstacle is an opportunity to improve our condition. And to me, the big word in that was our condition. And so I really heard it as doing something that you do yourself, but you're doing for kind of the hive mentality. Like I don't want anybody to ever have to go through the things I went through. And I think if like just the idea of if I had started talking about how I was really feeling earlier in my process and when I was healing the physical health aspects of my stuff, it would have completely altered like the trajectory of that.

54:12And so now like all I'm trying to do is get out there and really have those conversations with people. Because I think if we all just start doing it more often, it's like, like, let's say right now you're the only person I could ever talk to and it wasn't with microphones and an audience. All right. That's the only person I can go to for help. But if you end up being more comfortable to the point of like having 20 friends, if you're in one of those emergency situations where you're really having a panic attack or a breakdown of some sort, you know, you have a lot more space to get some like healing going.

54:46There's also like accumulated wisdom around you of other people's experiences. You don't necessarily go through something the hard way. If someone else is like, oh, I, when I was 20, I went through the exact same thing. Let me tell you what I learned the hard way. Exactly. And for me too, when I'm like having these conversations now, like it's, I'm learning and I love that, like, okay, I'm not just going to learn, but I'll just leave it out there on the internet and maybe somebody else will benefit from it too. The other one is, let's see, hopefully I can find this. If not for me, then for my family or the others I'm leading or those who might later find themselves in a similar situation.

55:24So it was very much. Yeah. That's the Stockdale chapter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So something bigger than yourself. Yeah. No, that is really interesting. It's funny that you read that into the intro, in that line in the intro. It's like with art, you say one thing and then it lands on someone. I don't think I was meant for our condition, but I do have a later chapter in the book about that. But yeah, when you hear the idea of the obstacles away, I'm not saying that your cancer diagnosis is awesome and it's going to be better for you. You know, it might be the end of the road for you. So I think the stoic idea that there's some good in this situation or good can come from it.

56:01It means, you know, what are you going to do for other people? What example are you going to provide? What breakthroughs are you going to fund? You know, what conversation are you going to have that's going to stick with someone? There's purpose in that. Yeah. And meaning in what you're able to do, even if you don't reap the majority of the benefit of what happened. Yeah. I mean, I've always been like a collaborative person. I was a coach on a swim team, all the things like I've tried to do. You're not a solo artist. Yeah. Like I don't want to be that. I just, I like it when people help people.

56:37I like it when I'm able to like be a part of a community effort, be a part of like a bigger thing. And I think we all need more of that in the world. I would just like it if people could actually like listen to the person across the table from them and actually like hear them and accept that it's okay that if they believe something completely different or completely crazy, you know, that that's their right as an American, as a human being to like have that perspective. And hopefully that's what I'm like going towards is just the idea of like doing all this for that. Well, there is this idea, I think, of stoicism as being sort of invulnerable, isolated, self-contained, superhuman.

57:17And look, there is a part of stoicism that's about kind of toughening you up and not being so fragile. But I think one of my favorite passages in meditations, Mark Sewell, he says, you're like a soldier storming a wall. And he says, you've fallen and you need to ask a comrade for help. And then he just says, so what? you know i love i love which to me is actually just such a good stoic take on this like be vulnerable ask for help put yourself out there he's not like it's amazing and beautiful and inspiring he's just like so what just do it like there's no shame in it and in fact like that's your duty as a soldier right like if you fall and you're like i fell i guess this is it for me right you know you're actually abandoning the other people yeah the mission's still there Yeah.

58:05So, so, so if you have to ask for help, it's your job to ask for help. And by the way, their job to receive the offer for help. And if we can just kind of destigmatize and demystify like the, the whole, like, I'm struggling. I don't know what to do. What do you think I should do? What about this? I I'm lost. Just take all that apart. And just, if you need something, be an adult and fucking ask for it. Absolutely. It's so important. I mean, like, look, you know, say you twist your ankle or something like that. It's like not a socially big thing to be like, hey guys, I can't come out or whatever.

58:37Like I got a busted ankle, you know? But like, if you're having a mental health day or like severe anxiety, how many people are actually comfortable being like, I'm losing it. I need to take the night to myself or go talk to my therapist or something like that. It's completely different. And our healthcare system also treats that completely different. Or during the pandemic, just the idea of like, hey, if you're sick, please stay home. Take care of yourself. Don't soldier through this because you think you're being selfless, but actually you're being really selfish. And so there is another way to think about asking for help is that it's the opposite of selfish.

59:15It's actually, okay, if you're out of commission for a month because you're going through something the hard way that actually there's a really easy solution to. Yeah. There's a selfishness to that and an inefficiency to that and a pointlessness to that. And you can't take care of other people or do anything if you haven't taken care of yourself anyway. So it's kind of like, why wouldn't you? Yeah. You know, common sense stuff, but I don't know that it's always seen as such, you know, that it's like, we also live in this kind of like, uh, like work mentality of like, you shouldn't take days off.

59:48You know what I mean? And that, what is that? You know, like. I bet that's hard as a musician, right? Like if you take a day off, there's 20 ,000 people that have to be upset or cancel. So there is that it's like it's this tension between soldiering through and then taking care of yourself. And what Chappelle Rohn got in trouble for this. She's like, I'm not feeling it. It's like the standards probably higher than that. But also not kill yourself in pursuit of a contractual obligation that can be easily made up. Sure. Sure. I mean, I think being preventative and coming up with some like better habits of like dealing with like what we all deal with that we're like flawed human beings and we're going to have our days, but being realistic about it and not being too like, you know, small in like what we choose to acknowledge.

1:00:35Like we have stuff, but it's like, okay, like, do you have a headache or is it like, is it a migraine? You know, like that kind of stuff. I talked to a baseball player and he says, there's a difference between being hurt and being injured. Very much. And I was like, oh, that's a great distinction. Yeah. It's like you respect injuries, but everyone's playing hurt. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I certainly been playing hurt for a little while, both physically and mentally. I think as you get older, like you can't help but have more things that affect you, you know, and like nobody's getting out of these bodies unscathed, you know, one way or another.

1:01:08And that's just a part of like moving forward is like dealing with it. And yeah, you got to be tough, but you also have to be realistic, you know and that's the the kind of fine line i think like we all have to figure out but i think we could be more sensitive about you know in in how we relate to other people and what they're going through yeah like when simone biles called it out of the olympics was it three years ago or two years ago because i don't think it was exactly four but it was like i don't need to have an opinion about this yeah you know like that i think that's the other place so so it's like let's say somebody does do it and maybe you would do it differently you can still just shut the fuck up You know what I mean?

1:01:44I think part of it culturally is respecting other people's process. And maybe they'll regret it. Maybe they'll wish they'd pushed through. Maybe they won't. But it wasn't your call. And even if it was your call, it already happened. And so, you know, having a hot take about it isn't doing anything, but contributing a certain amount of shame and hesitation for the next time someone has to make a call like this. Yeah. I think generally giving people grace and going, hey, you know. Yeah. Don't, don't like throw gasoline on the fire and then turn it into clickbait for when it's somebody who's like life and wellbeing is, is a big part of it for me.

1:02:21like every person who's saying something like that is more than likely in my opinion projecting totally their own stuff that they're like i would never have to do that you know you called in work you called into work sick like two weeks ago so yeah exactly you know yeah and you're and maybe it's like all you're doing is like reading something you know what i mean yeah exactly and it's not like you're actually like i mean simone biles like let's look at what she's actually doing like she's died she could break her neck if she if she like in the incredible athletic feats she's doing. Like she could literally die.

1:02:51So I think there's no better example than that of like, of course she should have like done what she did in my opinion. And look at her now, like, you know, being able to be at peace with herself and like tell that story and share with people and hopefully inspire a generation to be more open about that. When also, and it sounds like you guys are working on this, but I'm thinking about it too. Like, yeah. Okay. The artists never make it past 27. You know, I'd rather burn out than fade away. There was this kind of like ephemerality or almost a recklessness to a lot of professions, whether it's sports or art or entrepreneurship, like sleep at the office, burn the candle both ends.

1:03:30Thankfully, it's starting to change a little bit where people are actively thinking about like sustainability. Like what's so great about writing is even more so I think than music is like there are authors who are doing their best work at 80. You know, it's not just like the Beach Boys. They're still doing it at 80. They're not writing their best songs at 80. There's not a second wouldn't it be nice. Yeah, but writing like you can do forever. We have a different cultural set of expectations for writers, I think. That's a great point. And so if that's what you want, the idea that you're going to get there by being the crap out of yourself or not taking care of yourself in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s is just not how it's going to work.

1:04:09So, you know, that you're Tom Brady and you just never got tackled a lot. You're like, no, no, I'm going to actually take care of my body and set myself up for some kind of longevity. I want to do this sustainably. Yeah. The marathon, not the sprint, right? Like that's the idea. And I think for our band, we really have strove to like set ourselves up for that. Yeah. You know, like pacing our tours now as a part of that, you know, because if we were to go out and oversaturate all these markets and, you know, oh, you can see OAR every three months, they're coming back to town. I wake up one day, one of the members goes, I fucking don't want to do this anymore.

1:04:42I hate music. Because you overdid it. You overdid it and you sucked the fun and the novelty out of it. Yeah. I think that, well, I think that was starting to be a thing. And we all had talks about like, what's the best way to address this, where we can keep going, keep creating new music. Because I mean, we're releasing another album in the future. Like we're working on it now. We're actually doing more creative things, I think, than we've ever done in the way of like making plans farther in advance, working on a movie to, you know, kind of capture the 30 years of our career. Uh, there's a lot, I think you can do when you set yourselves up like that.

1:05:16When you look at like the burnout phase, like, what do you get? Like maybe three albums out of that, you know, but if you pace yourself, maybe you're a band that releases, you know, 25, 30 over the course of the years. I mean, look at Billy Joel, the longest standing residency at the garden, in, you know, like however many years. I mean, it's really a testament, I think, where it's like to your interest in it as well as the interest others have in it and that ability to sort of balance and come up with that healthy plan. Yeah, yeah. You have to let fields go fallow. You have to, you know, you have to recover.

1:05:52You can't do it at the same pace forever. It's not humanly possible. Yeah, that's something one of the guys on the pod said the first episode, producer Matt Wallace, He was like, I was getting burned out from trying to work so much. He was going in at 8 a.m. working till 12. And he started to taper off sort of some of those days. And the bands were like, what are you doing? You know, we need you in here. He's like, actually, I think it would be more beneficial for you guys if I wasn't here. If you want to keep working, you know, my engineer can stay. But I'm going to leave at 7.30 so I can get home and be with my family and say good night to my kid.

1:06:25And keep myself healthy and balanced and all that. Especially music is such weird. to out. Like there's also the kind of night owlness, which isn't probably sustainable or normal. If you want to be a functioning balanced human being. Yeah. I don't think you can have both of those, like at the same time, I think in that's something we learned with time was that you don't do recording sessions like that. Or if you do, it's because you only have 24 hours to get something done. It's not like, that's not how we approach anything anymore. It's like, what are we trying to do. All right. Let's set a reasonable timeline, you know, and that, that we know we can not like overstress.

1:07:01I mean, that's my whole mantra now is like with mental health is like, if it's creating stress, you're doing it the wrong way. Yeah. Like I think all nighters are bullshit. I hate the sort of like bleary eyed, like the stream of consciousness. I think it's much more the day to day-ness, the everyday-ness, the consistency and the even keelness. Are there moments of kind of insanity and energy and excitement that are good? But I think most of it is much less dramatic and much less glamorous than you would render it if you were doing a montage scene in a movie. Totally. And I think that's what it comes down to is that it's just like anything else.

1:07:40It's work that you want to do and maintain. It's a career. It's not a job. It's a lifestyle that you want to lead for whatever amount of time. Hopefully it's a long one, but that's like why you end up, you know, doing something you're passionate about. No, I think that's good. You want to go check out some books? Sure, man. Yeah. Let's do it. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

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