Politics, Empowerment, And Never Giving Up | Senator Martha McSally PT 1

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2:17Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

3:07Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. So back in ancient Rome, there was this thing called the cursus anorum, which basically meant the ladder of offices. You watch someone like Cicero or Cato, even Marcus Aurelius, when he's selected to become emperor, you don't just get the top job usually. You work your way up the system. And it was this system in Roman life where you held successive offices and you sort of proved your mettle. You learned on the job. You showed what you're capable of. And it was that idea, that ladder of offices, that was one of the first things I thought about when I was reading the bio of today's guest, because Martha McSally, his She had an incredible and fascinating life.

4:07She graduates from the U.S. Air Force Academy. She's the first female U.S. fighter pilot, the first one to fly in combat. After she retires from the Air Force, she serves in the U.S. House of Representatives, what is sometimes called the lower house. And then she's appointed to fill a term as a U.S. Senator, the higher house. in between there she earns a master's degree from harvard you know uh she has a master's in strategic studies from the air war college what just an absolutely fascinating person and a fascinating life and so i was really excited to have her on the podcast we had a great conversation We did a two-hour interview.

4:52We got right into it. We talked about exercise, physical fitness. We were talking about this right at the beginning of the year, sort of, who are you going to be this year? What are you going to work on this year? And she and I were both, as it happens, trying to work on being a little, not less disciplined, but a little more disciplined in our self-discipline, which is obviously something I've been talking a lot about recently. and I just really enjoyed this conversation Senator McSally although no longer a senator but I feel like that's a title once you get you can keep it she has a great book called Dare to Fly she signed some copies at the Painted Porch you can grab that and I think you're going to enjoy this interview with this trailblazing tough very smart woman enjoy

5:48Did you run this morning? I walked. You walked? Yeah. I went for a walk. So I did my Wim Hof breathing. Okay. Then I went for a walk to get a Dunkin' Coffee. And then I tuned into my friend's breathwork, 45-minute Zoom. Okay. And yeah, so today's, usually I do yoga on Wednesdays lately in my crazy-ass transformation I'm in the middle of right now. What is that? I can't wait to talk about it. Okay. What's the transformation? Are we on? Well, I don't want to go in too deep, but I do a lot of reflection lately on past year review at the end of the year. So looking back at 2023, some of this is like a merge of Tim Ferriss's ideas and Ben Hardy.

6:34Identify my peak experiences, positive and negative. You know, I literally look through every day on the calendar. Right. my what was on the calendar what my photos were and identify in green each day gets a tick mark green red or neutral wow reflecting back and then i list the end of the year at the end of the year past year review then i list my peak positive experiences who was i with what was i doing you know what are the themes peak negative and then the intention is like do more of the positive of course, raise your floor, do less of the negative. And lately I don't set any goals. Oh, I take the identity based approach to things.

7:14I really have come to understand in my life what we say after the words I am, whether it's, you know, just the definition of who we are, the core essence of who we are, like really matters. But in even kind of operational ways, identity-based approach, kind of James Clear in Atomic Habits. Like, what's your identity in this area of your life? And what does that look like? And then you build habits and processes to cast votes for that identity, to use his terms. So I do this for all elements of my life, like physical health, emotional health, relationships, work, finances, impact across the board.

7:53And I reflect on and kind of download a word of the year. So for 2024, the word of the year was allow. Okay. And in the area of physical health, I thought like, hey, I'm physically healthy. I'm fit. I do a lot of... Sure. You run ultra marathons. I do a lot of, you know, adventure stuff. So I simply wrote, I'm physically healthy. I take care of this impermanent vessel. That's all I wrote for physical health. Now, I listed some habits. And then a friend of mine, Joe Polish, I don't know if you know Joe, but he and Whitney Jones started this Lean Life Challenge with a bunch of friends in Genius Network.

8:37And at first I thought, well, that's not for me because I'm fit and health. That's for people who need to lose weight and get in shape. Sure. But I decided, hey, I wanted to build some muscle, so I'll join. And my life has been transformed over the last month. By doing? Massively. um by tracking my macros first of all knowing what's going in my body being intentional about specifically the protein yeah but also the rest of it it's a pain in it that's right like i'm i'm cooking for the first time in my life uh i went through some huge resistance like huge when i filled out the intake i basically said all the things i wasn't willing to do right and what i wanted to have happen anyway.

9:23So I had to get through this resistance, but I found that I'm eating more, punchline eating more, working out less. And I discovered I was overtraining and undernourishing. Sure. So I turned it around and within a couple of weeks, I'm just dropping fat. I also realized I was skinny fat. I get a body composition. I was like, holy crap. I thought I was like this, you know, fit person. And I actually have been running up my physical credit cards and put myself in a situation where I was demanding a lot of my body and doing it all from mental toughness, not based on what my body needed. So like everything is transformed in my life simply by saying allow and my identity as someone who takes care of my physical vessel and then being willing to be open to what that meant.

10:17So there's a bunch there I want to talk about. But I like the goals things. That's interesting. I try not to have goals also. Yeah. I try not to have goals. The Stoics would say that the problem with goals is that most of the things we have goals about are not in our control. Yes. Right? So like you want to run for office. There's a part of that that's in your control. But ultimately, like somebody decides whether you do it or not, right? You want to be a best-selling author. You can write a really good book. You can go on the road marketing it. But ultimately, like, not only do the customers decide, the moment in time that you're in decides, right?

10:53There could be a hurricane. Your book comes out during a pandemic. Things can interrupt it. And then ultimately, the New York Times decides. It's not—no competition is actually fair, right? And so the problem with goals is that we—not having goals is kind of a problem, right? Most people aren't aiming at anything. Visions, yeah. But then the problem is so many of our goals are based on stuff that's not ultimately up to us. And then we feel like shit or we feel less than when we don't get that thing. Right. Which is what most people do right around the beginning of the year. Yeah. Right. They start their, you know, this is going to be a different year.

11:29Their resolutions or whatever that is. Sure. And then they beat themselves up when they don't, you know, adjust their behavior. They don't stick to it. Then they get into the negative self-talk. Right. And then they give up. Yeah. Right. So I've brute forced my way through a lot of goals in my life, like a lot in the past, where I just, through sheer determination, made them happen. Maybe not the most productive path, but I did it. But at this stage of my life, I realized set the vision, set the identity with the I am statements in the present. And then the process and the micro habits is what really matters.

12:06And then you just stay unattached to the outcome. Yeah, I think people think if you don't have goals, you won't accomplish or achieve anything. And it can make it harder. But yeah, I think if you identify with the process or the practices or the things that are in your control that tend to be associated with that outcome, you can still get there without the inherent vulnerability of, I'm only, like, I only matter if I get a Nobel Prize. I only matter if I am the top of the Forbes list or whatever. There's still, first off, I think having a range of outcomes is better. You know, like I want to be over here with these people or in this line of work.

12:53That's different than I need to be the best or have the most or be the fastest. Yeah. And then, you know, again, if you focus on, like I've learned as an author, if I focus 99.9 % of my energy on writing and thinking and doing my job, the results take care of themselves. Exactly. I don't need to add on top of that, like, this thing is a failure if it doesn't achieve X. Totally agree. And I think, you know, again, I've set a lot of goals, saw the Hawaii Ironman on television one day and said, I'm going to do that. and then did it. So that helped me really keep that vision in mind when I was making decisions on Saturday mornings when my friends were sleeping in.

13:37Get up, put your shoes on. What would an Ironman triathlete do? They would get out and go for a bike ride, go for a run. But the problem with just a goal, like I'm going to do this, is when it's over, you're chasing the horizon. What's next? Sure. So as I've grown wiser in my years, I realized those identity-based visions, like really centering with yourself going, what do I want? Yeah. Like, what is my purpose? What's my vision for this area of my life? Write that out in an I am statement as if it's the present, even though it feels like it's the future self and you don't feel like you're good enough or whatever that stuff that starts, you know, resisting it.

14:20and then build the processes and the micro habits that are going to, you know, be attached to that identity. Sure. James Clear talks about this a lot in Atomic Habits, but I've lived it in my life. And then you can become satisfied in the journey too. Yes. Not just the destination. Yeah. I think if you focus more on the verb than the noun. Yeah. Right? Then you do achieve that thing. Aristotle talked about this way before any of these other people, right? He's saying that if you want to be generous or you want to be wise or you want to be courageous, it's not this end point. You don't become that thing.

15:01You do that thing. Yes. You be that thing. Yeah, you do it in small situations and big ones, and then you are that thing in that moment that you're doing it. And of course, if you do it cumulatively over the course of a life, then you can earn or be referred to by the title of that thing. But yeah, I think we so often think of these things as end states as opposed to actions that we engage in or habits that we follow. Or just a way of being. Yes. A way of being. So I help people go through this I am process. When someone asks you the question, who are you? Yeah. What do you answer? Yes. Usually we answer, you know, I'm an author.

15:49I'm a fighter pilot. I'm a colonel. I'm a whatever. We usually answer our titles or our roles in life. I'm a father. I'm a, you know. Sure. But that's just something we're doing. Sure. That's a role we're in. It's not who we are. Sure. And so as we peel that onion back, when we leave those roles, you leave the military. you get the divorce papers, like something bad happens. Now we're, we lose our footing. Yeah. And so then oftentimes we define ourselves by how we feel and it's usually negative. Right. Right. Yeah. Whatever those, because we feel kind of naked once our titles and our roles and the things that get, give us sort of false peace are stripped away.

16:29Even if they're not, as you think about that, often we then attach to our negative feelings. But if we keep peeling on that back and really connect to that. What are you doing here? Who are you? Who's the divine essence of who you are? If your funeral is tomorrow, what words, even though words are imperfect, would you want people to use to describe you who really, really get you? Right. It's probably not going to be a professional title. No, no. For me, my top five, you want to hear them? Sure. I'm courageous. I am integrity. I am generous. I am growing. I am relentless. There's more, but those are kind of the top five that emerged when I went through this process recently, actually refreshed it.

17:16And it can be deeply profound as I bring people through this. Even ask like your close friends and family members, give me the five words, people who really know you. Sure. How would you describe me? And attaching to those I am's can then help you assess, you know, do your thoughts line up with that? Does your bank account? Sure. Your schedule? Yeah. Right? Your decisions. And then as you kind of maybe can clear some of the no, clear it away, then as you're making new decisions, new visions, new habits, just staying aligned. Yeah. Is what really can bring you peace if today is your last day. and taking that as a gift, which I learned at an early age.

18:01So your end-of-year review, I think, is interesting. And I wonder if part of that comes from your experience as a pilot, right? So obviously there's a briefing before the mission. Then there's the debriefing after the mission. And there's a book on this, which I've been recommended many times and I haven't read, but it's called Debrief to Win. And the idea is that you're supposed to debrief after everything. And I think there is this tendency. We're always focused on where we're trying to go. And we don't take the time to stop and go, well, like, how did today go? How did yesterday go? How did last year go?

18:32And the problem is that, you know, how are you going to, how are you knowing, how are you, the future determined by the past, right? And so if we can take some time and reflect and review, put ourselves up for review, as the Stoics say, we're going to be more successful in the future. We're going to be more aligned with where we're supposed to go. So do you do that every year? I just recently started doing this in a deeper way in the last like four years or so. Yeah. But it's a practice that I spend more time actually, and I'm not like stuck on the past, just to be clear. I also want people to not be held back from the past.

19:14All we have is the present. But review the past, reflect on it. I continue, I list the books I read, the lessons I learned, what I want to stop, start, keep. There's many elements to this. But as you reflect, then that can help really inform your vision for where you're going next with an open hand based on, again, identity, not on I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. Like, who do I want to be? Who am I? And what's working for me and what's not working. What's not? Stop the things that are not working. Lessons are repeated until they're learned. So as a fighter pilot, we would come back from every mission and brutally debrief.

19:56Yeah. I mean, we'd take the rank off. You could have a colonel flying with a lieutenant. And we would list our objectives, which we had at the briefing. Yeah. And we review the tape. The tape does not lie. The heads-up display. When you say, no, I was in position. You know, my dive angle was good. Well, let's slow it down here and look. No, it wasn't. So where did that come from? What can you do better next time? What did we learn from this? And you're never perfect. So we're constantly in a very raw way, which is uncomfortable. But I had to learn how to have thick skin if you're willing to grow and learn and not take things personally, but always be willing to see where you can improve, where you were off, where you can go out tomorrow and do it better and continue to grow.

20:40So those tools for sure is a mindset I've had for my life. Yeah, I think people think like, you know, they know athletes watch a lot of film. And I think they think that the athletes are watching film of the competition, right? That it's scouting. Here's what they tend to do. No, they're watching film of themselves over and over and over again. And yeah, like the coach is usually standing there. They have like sort of a button kind of on like a string and it can start and start. It's like a remote. And they're just, why did you do this? Why did you do this? In slow motion. Yeah, and everyone's sitting there and laughing.

21:12And, you know, and that this is the process that Tom Brady is going through, that Patrick Mahomes is going through. Like, it doesn't matter how good you are, how important you are, how much you won by, right, how well the outcome went. They're going to find the couple of mistakes that you went and go over them over and over and over again. So you learn from them. But we don't subject ourselves to that process, most of us. Even though we know that process makes people better, we don't look at it. Yeah, it's probably fear or self-judgment that has us not just, we don't want to see it. Yeah. But everybody else sees it usually, right?

21:53So, I mean, it's all about the inner work, right? That's the only thing we can control. So if we are willing to have the courage to say, all right, where can I grow? Where did I mess up this conversation? Right. And not beat yourself up. But how could I have done better in this situation? And then you can grow. But if you choose not to look at it, you'll stay in that pattern.

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24:47So if allow is your word this year, like what was your word last year? So actually last year was also allow, which is not normal. It's not normal. But in the past, it was, again, I'm in a different phase of life right now. But freedom, adventure, love, impact, those have been some themes in the last. And it was more than one word in 2021 and 2022. But I just felt where I am right now. Instead of declaring all these different elements, I just needed to stay in a state of allowing. just in my own emotional and spiritual growth is, you know, allow, be open as a vessel, to be used, to be impactful, and see where it takes you.

25:30And like I said, these last 30 days, of all the areas of my life, I wasn't even focused on physical health. But because I was open, the universe was like, okay, you know, bring the two by four. She needs this. And I didn't realize that my health was actually on the verge of really suffering. And I had some indications that some things were off, but I kept ignoring them because I was like, oh, you know, I'll kick people's, you know, I could go on a hundred mile track, like I'm fine. And thank God, you know, that I was willing to be open to change. Is it harder for you to say like, go for a walk today instead of a long run?

26:14No, I do lots of walks. I mean, it's part of my morning routine. No, mine too. I just mean like in some ways, is it tougher for you to do less than more? Yes. Yeah. Earlier in my life, for sure. Yeah. Now I'm in a, you know, a different state where I understand that. But in the physical, for me to realize I was overtraining and today is a rest day and, you know, today is a yoga day. It was like, wait, I could easily go for a run. Like, no. Stress plus rest equals growth is peak performance, right? Yes. So you've got to have that rest and the nourishment. I mean, I've been like binge listening to experts on nutrition and fitness.

26:55I'm like, how did I not know these things? I have been an athlete my whole life. Yeah. And I feel so stupid that I didn't know the basics of nutrition and the basics of how to build muscle, how to lose fat, you know, how the gut works, like all this stuff. So I'm, you know, I'm consuming now in a massive way. But it's been an amazing transformation. I think the key is whether somebody wants to transform their physical health or not. I wanted to offer, I've created your rapid transformation guide, which is free for your listeners at 2024bestyear.com. Okay. If you still want 2024 to be your best year, which can still happen.

27:36It's only a month in. It can still happen. Sure. Then I just share some principles there. You know, there's nothing catchy. I'm not trying to sell you anything. It's just some principles there that I've used in my life that I'm using now that has aided in my rapid transformation that's going on as we speak that people could use in any area of their life, whether it's their work, their relationships, you know, physical health or anything. Yeah, my word last year was less. Just sort of, I was thinking less, you know, less commitments, less activity, you know, Less drama, less stress, just reminding myself that, you know, especially as you become more successful, your life should become better, right?

28:16Yeah, more complicated. Yeah, not more complicated, not less in your control, you know, just sort of less. And then this year, my word sort of related to that, having learned some lessons from last year, my word this year is systems. Systems. Yeah, because systems are a way, in some ways, systems demand more, but they're also a way to do less, to waste less, to have less inefficiencies, et cetera. So I'm focusing more on systems, you know, less making the same mistake over and over again. Just my wife and I are just thinking a lot more about systems. So things are just sort of operating in the background, operating on autopilot, you know.

28:54And then we're also, yeah, we're just catching the systems are doing the work instead of us doing the work. more efficiency, right? And effectiveness when you've got good systems and processes. Yeah. Well, less should ideally be a way to do more, right? Because when you're taking something away, you should be getting more of something else. Even if that, which I think maybe, I guess sort of in 2019, my word in 2019 was stillness. So like you should get from less activity, you get more stillness. Yeah. Have you always had a word of the year? Not every single year, but I started doing it. For Daily Stoke, we do these challenges every year.

29:30And that was one of the early ones is like, I'm going to do a challenge. Or one of the challenges was, what's your word for the year? What are you sort of thinking about? Because it can be really helpful to have just in a single phrase or a single word, an embodiment of what you're trying to do or be that year. So that as you come to individual decisions, you have kind of a watchword that guides you that makes a complicated situation pretty simple. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's just setting that intention. Yes. And, I mean, things may blow up, you know, by the end of the first quarter. Sure. In negative or positive ways.

30:12New opportunities may come. And so being grounded in that and then also open allows you, because sometimes people, I think it like, well, this is what I'm doing and these are my goals. But if you're not open for divine derailments, for things that you couldn't even foresee, like you couldn't even imagine, but they're right in front of you, a conversation on a plane ride that could change your life. So just being open could take you in a different direction. Well, allow is an interesting word. You know, the Stoics talk a lot about acceptance or even resignation. And those words sit poorly or at least uncomfortable with a lot of people, right?

30:55Because it seems passive. It seems weak. You know, it seems like it's accepting injustices or problems. Like the world wouldn't get better if everyone accepted everything. That's what we take. But actually there is something I think very powerful about acceptance. And I think your use of the word allow is interesting because it allows a different way to think about it, right? Because allowing is almost coming from a place above instead of a place below, right? You're saying I am allowing this to happen to me as opposed to, you know, I'm simply accepting that this happened. But the Stoics call this the art of acquiescence, the idea of that actually the first step to all things in life has to be an acceptance.

31:46Even the stuff that you don't like that shouldn't have happened, that you don't want allowed to happen again, it still did happen. So pretending that it didn't or denying that it didn't or whatever it is, you know, it's just holding you back from doing something about it. Yeah, stop resisting what is. We spend a lot of energy resisting what is. Yes. Whether we don't like our boss or, you know, the relationship we're in, we really want other people to change. Sure. If we could accept what is, then you can address the things that are in your control to actually create the life you want, the relationship you want, the situation you want.

32:29But we spend so much energy resisting what actually is. Or arguing with it. Yes. As if it cares. Yeah. Or when it comes to the past. I mean, I've been through some trauma in my life that has deeply impacted me. Yeah. But I learned at an early age, I just don't know. I now know what to call it. Yeah. But I learned early on, like, well, it's not happening to me right now. Sure. And I remember saying this shortly after something really, really awful happened to me. Yeah. Well, it's not happening to me right now. It doesn't have any power over me. Right. Now, there was a little disassociation going on there that, you know, needed to be integrated over time, but it was still truth.

33:12And it did happen. It did happen. Yes. And, you know, it's the whole, it's the second arrow, right? So the first hour is the painful thing. Yes. The second hour is the suffering that we put upon ourselves based on how we frame that painful thing. Yeah. So, I mean, I look at the experiences in my young life. I lost my dad at 12. I then was a fatherless teenager, just went from this youngest of five kids, stable life, to just like, rah. Then my mom went back to work and school. I was just like, what is happening? Right. And just trying to find my way and make my father proud. He told me, make me proud before he died.

33:51And so I'm driven to make my dead father proud, you know, while I'm also dealing with the screaming going on in my soul and looking for father figures in my life. And, you know, then I had a coach who I trusted in that role who then violated that trust. And I'm like a naive teenager. Yeah. And now, you know, I'm being sexually abused by someone who I trusted like a father. It just was like, what is going on? Right. But I just knew there was something inside me, even as I was suffering through this, was like, I got to get out of here. Right. And I'm not going to let this hold me down or hold me back.

34:31I'm just not. Yeah. And with the tools I had at the time, which were not many, but they were enough to be like, I got to geographically get out of here. And I've got to find a path that I don't sabotage myself in the midst of all the volatility I'm dealing with. So I went off to the Air Force Academy in part to serve and not pay back in student loans and debt. You pay back in service. But I didn't know what I was doing. It just was a direction of help me move forward in my life by giving me some purpose. I wouldn't have used these words at the time. Yeah. Get me away from this predator. Yeah. And just like help contain this volatile energy I have into something positive.

35:15Right. And I think back now, I didn't want to be a fighter pilot. I wanted to be a doctor. I was motion sick as a kid. Yeah. And when I got there, I found out it was against the law for women to be fighter pilots, against the law. And I was like, what? It was the first time I was told I couldn't do something because I was a girl. And it just pissed me off. So I took this rebellious spirit that I had raging and I was like, well, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Don't tell me I can't fly fighter jets because I have ovaries. And I just like set that vision like I was going to be a fighter pilot.

35:49Like I'm going to make it happen. And had I not been abused by my coach, I don't think I would have had the fortitude to say, don't hold me down and hold me back because I'm a girl. Yeah. So I wouldn't have used these words at the time, but I look at those experiences like they happened for me, not to me. Yeah. It's the obstacle is the way. Yeah. Right? The very hard things that I went through, not only could they have crushed me and almost did, but I made a decision. They're not going to crush me, and I allowed them to propel me into my path and my purpose in a positive way. Yeah, when the Stoics are talking about the idea of the obstacle is the way, they're not saying that this horrible, unfair, undeserved thing that happened to you is wonderful.

36:44Yes, exactly. They're saying that it's shaping and changing you in some way and that you don't know what it's going to do to you and you don't necessarily control that it happened or how it happened. But you can control how it changes you. Yeah. Does it change you for the better or for the worse, right? Yes. And does it make you go in a positive direction or a negative? You control what you do after. Yes. Right? Exactly. And we know when we look at our old lives that most of the things that happened that we didn't want to happen, that we're fighting as they happen, by and large, have a positive impact on us.

37:23That, you know, later we have gratitude for them or appreciation for them or just perspective about them. And yet, as they're happening, we're doing nothing but fighting them and fearing what they're going to mean, you know. And so I think part of the idea of the obstacle is the way, again, it's not that you're this superhuman who has the ability to transform everything into some magical positive. But it's just saying as it's happening or shortly after it's happening, instead of torturing yourself and fighting it and fearing it, just to step back a little bit and say, I'm going to see where this goes.

37:59Exactly. And over time, ensuring that the negative things associated with that, whether it's fears or anger or unforgiveness, whatever it is you went through, like those are the things that hold you back in the present. And so many people, I use flying analogies for a lot of what I teach. And, you know, when you're flying, you want to be as aerodynamically as slick as possible, right? You don't, you're not coming in with your gear down and your speed brakes out when you're doing a bombing run because it takes up fuel and it slows you down. Yeah. It's called drag on the airplane. So, you know, I tell people drop the drag.

38:39Like what's the drag that's holding you down right now? Yes. That's taking up fuel and slowing you down. Right. And it's often unforgiveness. Yeah. Or anger. I mean, the number of people I meet, I'm sure you know a lot of them, who spend their whole lives angry at some parent or person in their life who hurt them or never measured up. But it's not serving you to hang on to that anger. It's, you know, bitterness is the poison pill you swallow expecting the other person to die. Forgiveness is not about them. It's about you. So coming to that place where you free your spirit from this drag of, you know, deep anger or regret, you know, based on our own decision, whatever that is, like, you've got to let it go.

39:29It's slowing you down and holding you back. I was talking to a therapist about this once, and they were talking about, you know, you have these people in your life that betrayed you or hurt you or weren't what you needed. and you think about it all the time, you know, and it frustrates you. It pains you. You can kind of have these imaginary conversations with them. And then he was like, the problem is they're not thinking about you at all. Yes, I say that all the time. So you have the drag. Yes. And they're just going about their lives because that's who they are. That's what allows them to do these things to people.

40:03And so, yeah, you're allowing this thing that happened to you in the past to slow you down in the present. And you're - Torture you. You're the one, the victim of the thing is the one who's carrying the baggage from it, not the perpetrator. Yes. And you got to find a way through, I think, work, some of these philosophical exercises to give that back to the person. Be like, you carry it. Yes. Right? Yes. Or like, this is on you. I didn't do anything wrong. I was a kid. Yeah. Right? Like, you were supposed to do X, Y, and Z for me and you didn't. Or someone steals from you, whatever it is. Whatever it is.

40:38they should carry the guilt and the shame and the weight of it. Not you. Because then, yeah, you're adding insult to injury. No, I say that all the time. Like, they're not thinking about me right now. Why am I thinking about them? Like, why am I letting this person to ruin my day today? They already ruined one day. Yeah. Why am I letting them rob me of my present? Do you have resentment and frustration? I can't imagine becoming a female fighter pilot when you became a female fighter pilot. It was easy. I imagine there were a lot of people who treated you very shitty. I mean, getting through that is one thing, but then not letting it shape how you exist in the present and see people in the present.

41:22That must be hard. It was hard. At the time, I really struggled with it, and I had to learn some skills in order to not have it deeply impact me. You eat at you. It just was—there's so many people who were so hostile towards us. And there can be kind of this, like, sheep mentality where I think, you know, 80%, 90 % of them are actually really good people, good husbands, good fathers. They would want their daughters to be able to be whatever they wanted to be. and there are a couple of advocates, just like in any group of humanity. And then you've just got some assholes and then the sheep stay silent while the assholes, you know, kind of allow that, you know, that environment.

42:02And it was just, it would eat me up at times, but I had to learn the skills that if I'm tossing and turning at night because I'm pissed off about how somebody, you know, denigrated me or whatever, then I'm not going to get a good night's sleep. then I'm going to go fly tomorrow. I'm not going to perform well. And then I'm actually going to bring about the very thing that they say, that, you know, girls can't do that. Women can't do this. Which by the way, is why they were saying the things to you in the first place, right? They were trying to bounce you out. And so it gets back to that whole, they're not thinking about me right now.

42:35Like, why am I letting them ruin my sleep? The best thing I can do is be rested and ready. And also you're going to make mistakes in the jet. Any student does. So you just have to learn how to develop thick skin without losing your humanity is the way I would describe it. And I had to learn those skills in that time frame. And I did it very imperfectly. There were times with a few beers in me at the officer's club that I, you know, let a lot, some of that come out on some people. I've got some funny stories about that. But I had to find the skills for me to be able to serve in my calling, not let them rob me of it mentally.

43:21Or, again, if I was sleep deprived because I'm focusing on how unfair people are being to me, the best thing I could do is just fly the jet well and beat them at the bombing range. So that took, you know, studying and focusing and chair flying and doing everything to make sure I was ready to excel. So, yeah, it wasn't easy. And it was some very lonely times. I remember early on when I went into my first training, I was ignored when I walked into the squadron. Right. And my first operational squadron commander turned his back on me when I went to introduce myself to him. I was like, okay, this is my commander.

44:02I mean, he sets the culture for the whole squadron. They've never had a woman before. Sure. I found out later, he brought the whole squadron together. And, you know, as a leader and a former commander myself, what he should have done is said, we have a new member of our squadron who's been through the same training as all of you. We're going to combat together. Our lives are in each other's hands. I expect everybody to treat this person with the same professionalism and honor and dignity you treat each other with and to welcome them into our family. Instead, he said, the worst possible thing is about to happen to our squadron.

44:38After a long legacy of brotherhood, we're about to have a woman show up. Yeah. And so he set kind of license for, you know, the assholes to be hostile. He eventually moved on. But I remember I was getting up in the morning, just getting on my knees like, God, give me the strength to get through today, to focus on what I can do right now to become the best fighter pilot I can be and prove that the plane doesn't care if you have ovaries or not. You know, this bigger mission, but the best thing I could do is fly my instrument pattern today with excellence, not worry about all of, you know, humanity and womanhood, even though that was kind of running in the background.

45:23You probably heard the headlines about all the different cuts to foreign aid and food benefits. This is having a profound impact on the world's poorest people and the world's poorest communities. But, you know, just hearing about that, that's not what stoicism is about. Stoicism is, to me, what you're going to do about it. And that's where GiveWell comes in. GiveWell is trusted by tens of thousands of donors each year because they provide free and independent research that helps you understand how to have a big impact. GiveWell has spent the last 18 years research in global health and poverty alleviation, and they direct funding to the highest impact opportunities.

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46:38To claim your match, go to GiveWell.org and pick Daily Stoic from the drop down menu under podcast. That's how they know that you heard about GiveWell from the Daily Stoic, and you'll get your donation matched. That's GiveWell.org, code the Daily Stoic to donate or find out more. Look, if you're listening to this podcast, you've probably heard of HelloFresh, right? They're the number one meal kit in America. They make home cooking easier with chef crafted recipes and fresh ingredients delivered straight to your door. This fall, they're serving up even more to love. It's not the HelloFresh you remember.

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48:22One of the early Stoic teachers, his name was Musonius Rufus, and he has this essay about whether men and women should both be taught philosophy. This is about 2 ,000 years ago. And he goes, of course women should be taught philosophy. He says, you know, you don't care what gender your dog is. you know you don't he says you don't care what gender the horse is you just care whether it can run fast yes whether it can it can hunt well right exactly and so that expression that a plane doesn't care whether you have ovaries or not it's a good one right it's it's weird our preoccupation with uh these sort of distinctions or differences when the reality is a bunch of people have said this like the biggest difference is between people and other people right not between uh one gender and another gender or one race and another race.

49:11Yeah. Right? What should really matter is can the person do the job or not? Right. And the reality is most people can't do the job. Right. So to single out one constituency as being predisposed to not be able to do the job is nonsense because most people can't fucking do it. Exactly. Right. And it was a fascinating— You're being prejudiced on the wrong thing. Right. Right. And it was fascinating to watch the whole debate when they were considering opening up fighters to women. Our chief of staff of the Air Force, the four-star general in charge of our Air Force, testified before Congress repeatedly that he was against it.

49:45He's responsible for making sure we have the best Air Force, yet 50 % of the population he's going to just summarily dismiss as having any capability. And they asked him, I'm paraphrasing, but, so you would rather pick a less qualified man over a more qualified woman for those cockpits? And he said, yes, I would. It's just the way I feel. And so, like, we hated this guy. Yeah, sure. And, you know, then eventually the secretary, they changed the law, they changed the policy. I'm standing, I'll send you the picture. I'm standing at a press conference with this guy. Yeah. And two of the other gals who were selected to go first.

50:23And they put us through all this media training, you know, watch your body language. But it was live. And I took my little rebellious spirit. And I'm looking at this guy with side eyes, like, I can't stand this guy, right? He's setting this tone, but now he's announcing like women are, you know, here are our amazing three zoo animals. You know, these three women are going to be the pioneers. But it was irrational. And I found in my experience, which is vast, that it often came from insecurity. Of course. It's, you know, like if this is a boys club and, you know, somehow my manhood is, you know, attached to me being this fighter pilot.

51:01and a girl beats me at the bombing range? Like, what does that mean? Sure. So I try to, you know, have more compassion on them as I grew older that they're coming from insecurity. I think that's at the core of it. And you see it, I mean, even today, people are, oh, it's the feminization of this or what. It's like, I have no doubts in my ability to adjust and adapt and thrive in any environment. So I don't have a lot of opinions about what the environment should be or what the right way to fit. And the idea that the way it's always been is the best way is, of course, nonsense. So I just go, well, it is what it is, and I'll figure out how to work in that environment.

51:39But I think a lot of people deep down, especially as you get older or you start to believe that you can't change anymore, and instead of focusing on how you're going to thrive in the environment that you're in legally, culturally, politically, you have to expend your energy keeping things the way that they are because you know deep down you are threatened by a new or a different environment. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I mean, back to the whole one, you know, so no women can do this, therefore all men can. I used to joke, they would talk about, you know, what physical strength that you need.

52:18They're like, okay, so for whatever job in the military, not even flying fighters, There's physical strength required. So are you saying Justin Bieber is qualified and Serena Williams is not? How about we set standards and they're not just physical. They're aptitude. They're intellectual. There's values and courage and other attributes that really matter in combat and make sure that we pick the best man for the job even if she's a woman. Yeah. I mean, look, there's obviously physical components to being a fighter. But you're not like lifting heavy rocks all day. No. It's primarily a mental pursuit, right?

52:52It's about coordination. It's about experience. It's about learning. It's about working with others. It's communication. It's all these other skills that ultimately have very little to do with gender. Yeah, and you need physical stamina and physical strength to sustain the G-forces. You sometimes would lose several pounds of water just in the middle of a mission. One of my friends described it once when I was at a career day with him. And he said, it's like being a fighter pilot is like doing long division in the middle of a wrestling match. And so you do need physical strength, but core strength matters.

53:22You know, being able to tighten up your muscles in order to keep the blood flow going and you have to have stamina. Right. You know, again, I just run the Hawaii Ironman triathlon before this. And people are like, you can't do this. I'm like, can you just give us a chance? Right. Give us a chance. And it's not like we don't have a pretty obvious example of women having incredible stamina and high pain tolerance. You know what I mean? It's preposterous. And ironically, for pulling Gs, the shorter you are, the better. Now, I had challenges because I was a little bit too short for the cockpit fitting, so I had to go through the whole process.

53:58Other obstacles and barriers for me to get into pilot training. But the taller you are, it's all about pumping blood from your heart to your head. Right. With pressure, the taller you are, the more distance you have to pump. So, you know, taller, mostly guys, although there are taller women, have a bigger challenge to solve to not pass out under G-forces than somebody who's shorter. You know, it's funny, though. So the Stoics have this, on the one hand, this sort of progressive view of gender. And then, of course, like, you know, the rest of the Stoic writings are like, don't be womanly or, you know, like all sorts of casual.

54:37sexism and misogyny. And by and large, all the Stoics that we know about were men, because that's what history favors. But I've always sort of taken that to go, well, isn't the real Stoicism, like wouldn't a real Stoic be the person who was going through all the same things, but they didn't need credit for it. You know, they didn't make it all about them. They were also putting up with the fact that they were being underestimated and condescended to and judged. And so there's this almost, there's almost this like fragility admitted in the fact that we had to make history all about dudes and how awesome they were.

55:28Do you know what I mean? And Robert Caro, this amazing biographer of Lyndon Johnson, he was talking about what life must have been like in the 1800s in the United States. And he was talking about how, you know, all we talk about are the cowboys. And he's just like, but he's like, what about, you know, the woman carrying water from the well after giving birth, right? He's like, that's who is actually the tough motherfucker, you know, is like, and then she wasn't also making up myths about how amazing and strong she was. She was just doing it. Exactly. She was like doing what needed to be done. Didn't have to get credit for it.

56:05Yeah, totally. Or like the assassination of Julius Caesar, right? All we talk about is Brutus who does it. But Brutus' wife is named Portia and she's Cato's daughter, the other famous stuff. And so she's the one that actually is like her husband is afraid he can't do it. He's not sure. She's the one. She's like, you got to do this. Right? But again, we celebrate the dude and the other person behind the whole – he's – the story, this is in Shakespeare's play, but it's also in Plutarch. But he's thinking about doing it, but he doesn't want to tell his wife. And she finds out that he's thinking about it.

56:48And she realizes that he doesn't want to tell her because he's afraid she would break under torture. Right? Okay. So she stabs herself in the leg and then binds the wound and then just sort of endures it all. And she's trying to prove to him that, like, look, I can take pain better than you can, right? Which, again, is like what's so funny about this sort of sexism or the assumptions that we make is how rarely they're based on anything, even remotely scientific, anecdotal, or historical. You know, it's just nonsense. Exactly. I bet you met some really tough women and some really not so tough dudes who were all fighter pilots.

57:31Exactly. Or in all walks of life or any parts of the military. It comes down to the person. I mean, I have a saying, grow a pair of ovaries just to try and turn. What's the Stoic saying about the world is watching to see if you have cojones? I've heard you quote that before. Yeah, yeah, that's in Cormac McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses, I think. Yeah, he says the world wants to know. Wants to know. The world wants to know if you have ovaries, right? Yes, sure. There's a little play on that. Was there a part of you, though, that, like, you thought, I'm going to do this, I'm going to prove them all wrong, and they're going to accept me?

58:10and was it anticlimactic or disappointing when you did it and they didn't go, we were wrong? I don't think I was focused on that, but for sure, my core purpose for becoming a fighter pilot was to prove them wrong. Yeah. It's just because they told me I couldn't and that girls couldn't, that motivated me to say that's exactly what I'm going to do. And it took almost 10 years, right? Yeah. Like from the day I put the dream in my heart to the day it came true was almost a decade. Yeah. And so I, you know, I didn't have a chip on my shoulder. I just was continuing to excel. I looked for opportunities to keep the door open for me.

58:56And I was just, I was going to be a fighter pilot. There was no, I didn't hope I was going to be a fighter pilot. I didn't dream it. I declared it. Right. And I decided it. And I wasn't sure how, but I declared it was going to happen. Yeah. And, you know, 10 years later, it did. And sure, I knew, I mean, I was in the ninth class with women at the Air Force Academy. I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but somebody had to go. And I'd rather it be me than being on the sidelines watching someone else. That's just kind of the way I made. Right. I'd rather be in the arena. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, over time, what I found was in your squadron, on your team, once you proved your capabilities, there was a brotherhood and sisterhood there that was very tight.

59:43But then you would still deal with people who never knew you, never met you, who were threatened by you, especially as we moved up in the ranks. So to be a wingman means that the flight lead's in charge of the flight, you're the wingman, you stay in position, you do what you're told, flight lead coordinates everything, and then your job is, when it's time, deliver bombs, guns, missiles, whatever it is, where you're told with precision, be in position, call out threats, you're not in charge. But then upgrading to be a flight lead and telling others, you know, what to do, and then later to be an instructor pilot and an evaluator and a commander, people on the outside who didn't get those opportunities, of course, would feel threatened.

1:00:29And then the denigration would happen through a variety of different means. So I just had to like do the best I could to block it out. Right. While hanging on to the closeness I had in the, you know, combat, you know, tested relationships of those who were in my unit wearing the same patch. Yeah, I'm just curious. I found that sort of trying to prove people wrong, trying to shove it in their faces, right? Trying to make them pay. It's very powerful fuel, but it's volatile. It can blow up all over you. And then it tends not to be so satisfying when you get the thing because it never does what you wanted it to do for you.

1:01:15Yeah, but I saw – so I was the only woman in my squadron for a while, but then we had another female show up. And I saw how accepted she was pretty quickly. And I just felt, I don't know, I could exhale a little bit and be like, oh, I think we've arrived. Of course, then I was given more opportunities to move up and denigration continued. But it allowed me to be like, we're making progress. Yes. One person at a time, right? One moment at a time. And I'm just here to do what I believe I was called to do. Yeah. And I can't worry about everybody else's attitudes. I'm not the attitude police here.

1:02:00I just need to do my job and not let them rob me of my calling. There was a time where this was after, maybe we can talk about it later, but I took on the Pentagon for an eight-year battle for how our women were treated in Saudi Arabia. Right. I had no idea what that was going to entail when I stepped up to make that first decision. But again, a lot of denigration from that. And I almost missed the opportunity to become a squadron commander because I was tired of it. I was like, I don't need to go into a high school locker room again and prove that I belong. I've already done that. And I almost, out of my weariness, didn't allow myself to be open to this amazing leadership opportunity to be a commander.

1:02:45So I had to adjust myself in the midst of that to get to the core of like, this is where I belong. This is what I'm doing. This is an amazing opportunity for me. And I'm, I can shape the culture as a leader and the next generation in this position. And so I'm going to take this, take this role on and not let others stop me. Yeah. Because they, they really can't stop you, but they can make you quit. They can make me stop myself. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They can suck the joy out of it for you. They can make you so frustrated that you retire early. Yes. Right? Like, at a certain point, all there really is is sort of that form of psychological warfare, which is remarkably successful against all movements and changes.

1:03:33It's very powerful. They just want to make you— Suck the will out of you. Yeah, exactly. Just want to make you give up. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and they almost did. Yeah. But they didn't. Did you find that over time, minds changed once people had personal exposure to it? For sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And just the next generation coming along. I mean, a sociologist would have a field day with it. I've always was fascinated how, even in my generation, people would come from being okay if, you know, there was a girl who was the valedictorian of their high school class or the president of their class. It was no problem.

1:04:17But somehow when we got into this military environment, it was a weird shift that would happen inside people. I don't think it was on purpose. Yeah. But something was happening in the culture there. That should be more deeply studied. But, yeah, I definitely think now, even though there's still a very small percentage of female fighter pilots, you have to have the desire and the capability, and it has to be available to you. All Venn diagram overlap is pretty narrow. But it's become so much more normalized now that there's often usually more than one woman in a squadron, I think, these days. Well, it takes generations, right?

1:04:54Because you think about the instructors that you had, which was not that long ago. They were from the previous era. Their instructors were the previous era. And it doesn't take many eras to go back to black people couldn't fly, you know, Jews. Like just the level of discrimination that was endemic in each, you know, in each era. We've been slowly sort of battling that back. But people are informed by the time that they grew up in. So even if they're progressive or open-minded in one capacity, that's as far maybe as they're willing to go. And I found as soon as somebody became a father to a daughter, as long as they didn't disassociate the two issues, right?

1:05:41Like I want my daughter to have every opportunity to be whatever she wants, but I'm, you know, still somehow think you shouldn't be here. You know, it's always a funny dynamic. But I definitely saw evolving happen as people became fathers to daughters. Yeah, I hear that a lot. That always struck me as such a strange thing to have opened your mind. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Until I'm biologically related to one. Exactly. Well, we used to also joke that like they just, they would, you know, a lot of guys would be like, okay, I still don't think women should be doing this, but you're the exception.

1:06:19and somehow that would make you feel good. Like, no, your bias needs to be shattered. Right. You need to, you can't, because the cognitive dissonance, I joke that part of my purpose in life is to create cognitive dissonance in people. Yeah. But the cognitive dissonance, like something has to give. You can't believe this and this and then somehow try to hold on to both of them. Yeah. So if you have proof of something different than your core belief, then be open to shattering your beliefs. Yeah. There is, I think I was reading, I'm trying to remember who I was reading. It might have been in a Wayne Dyer book recently about what do we believe and what do we know?

1:06:55Yeah. And the things that we believe, if we're not willing to hold them with an open hand because we believe them because that's what society believes. That's what our parents believe. That's what somebody else said. That's what we read a book about. But if we really don't know, like know from experience, know from a divine knowing, like we know something, be willing to hold those beliefs with an open hand. And that's not easy to do though.

1:07:24Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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