Rachel Hollis On Learning From The Worst Moments, Measuring Success, And Doing Your Best

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2:26Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

3:21Hey, this is Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. This is actually part two of an episode, a unique episode we recorded a while ago. Rachel Hollis had reached out to have me on her podcast and she was like, do you want to drive out to Dripping Springs? And I said, yeah, I'm sure. She was like, actually, but I'd like to see your bookstore. What if I came to you? And I said, well, if you're going to come to me, why don't we just record a two-in-one thing? I'll kind of interview you, you kind of interview me, and that's what we ended up doing. And look, I got some interesting comments from some people.

3:55Rachel, I think a lot of successful women, especially women who do their work online, can be polarizing and they have a lot of vocal critics, both from men and women, which I've never really understood why. It just doesn't seem like that's a good way to go through your life, just constantly judging women you've never met because they do things differently than you might do them. But anyways, after watching some comments, I thought I'd point something out that we don't touch on in the interview, but news has since come out. Rachel was a wife and a mother. She's still a mother, obviously, but was a wife and her marriage was part of her work.

4:34She and her husband, Dave Hollis, gave marriage advice to conferences together, and then they got divorced. And people thought this was some sort of profound violation of the trust, and that she was somehow fake or false as a result of this. But when Dave tragically died recently, perhaps some of the reasons for that split came out, right? I don't need to speculate about his history. You can read about it online if you so choose. But the point is, you never know what someone's going through. You see just a fraction of a person in their public work. And to think that you are entitled to judge them so quickly to be cruel or unkind about them, just a shitty way to go through life.

5:24And anyways, I wanted to say that before I get into the second half of the interview. If you haven't checked out Rachel's massive bestsellers, didn't see that coming, Girl, Stop Apologizing, Girl, Wash Your Face, which sold over 5 million copies. You should. She's got a great podcast that you can listen to. You can listen to this interview there too, if you want to hear her intro about our conversation. And we talk about a bunch of stuff. Enjoy the first part of the conversation. Enjoy the second one. You'll go to at Miss Rachel Hollis to follow her on Instagram or missrachelhollis.com to see her website.

6:02and I think we still have a couple signed copies of her books in the bookstore. And then as it happens, if you've ever seen the big chimney that we have at the painted porch, there's a copy of Girl, Wash Your Face in there because as we bought a bunch of cheap books, that book was such a massive bestseller. I guess someone had taken it to Goodwill and that's stuck there in the book tower, which I had fun showing her while I was there, while she was at the bookstore. Anyways, here's my conversation with Rachel Hollis.

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8:30My core value is believing that the only way you and I are going to get better, or Jack, or your team, any of us, is that we have to try stuff and we get it wrong and we have to learn from it. That is a core value of mine. If I want to grow, I'm inevitably going to do something where I have to learn from it. And if I believe that's true for every human, then I have to also give myself that grace. Sure. it would see sure sure but that was like a huge like it took me so long to get back to a place where i was like okay you can you can mess up of course you can the only real failure here is if you don't learn from it and you go hide out under a rock and you never do anything again yeah or if it so there's this line from mark strealus he says it can only harm you if it harms your character.

9:19And I think he's saying in two ways. So one is like, you say something, you screw up, people get mad at you. And so you're like, I'm out. I'll never try again. That's obviously not making, that's not a good character. The other version is like what we're talking about, which is it turns you into a reactionary. It turns you into the thing that those people are criticizing you for being, which happens all the time. Someone goes from like kind of controversial to like public enemy number one on purpose. They say like, I'm going to own this. You called me X, you tried to cancel me for X. Well, now let me really show you.

9:56Now you're sort of motivated fundamentally by some kind of grievance. And that takes people to a very, very dark place when your life is defined by some kind of grievance. Like I'm going to show them, I'm going to prove them I'm going to be so successful that no one will ever be able to do something like this to me again I'm going to be so successful they have to let me in their club and I think that's what happens to people something happens early in life something happens in their career and then this fundamental grievance or wound becomes the primary motivation lens through which we operate and that never ends well.

10:43Right, right. Well, it's also part of acceptance is just sort of like, it is, like this happened. What are you going to do now? What are you going to do? Where are you going to go from here? Yeah, and it's probably not nearly as bad as you think it is, right? So the thing happened, it doesn't take away all the things you've ever done, doesn't empty your bank account. That's what's wild because I actually just wrote a chapter about this. I just turned in my 10th book, Ryan. You know what a big deal that is. I turned it on Friday, promptly got a cold sore. I was like, thank you. Thank you, body, for shutting down.

11:15But I wrote a chapter on this experience and like processing through everything that was and writing down my emotional response to that time period is crazy. Yeah. Like how dark that was for me. I, horrible, horrible. And no matter how upset people were with me, it is nothing, not even the tip of how much I beat myself up. Really? Oh my God. Because I was like, I've done this for 10 years. I don't understand how I didn't know that this would be upsetting to people. Like I just, I like, I couldn't process it. And what's crazy is a decade, a decade of blogging every day, nine books, 400 podcast episodes, a 60 second TikTok video then became the definition of who I am and my work in my own mind.

12:28Like, I really don't know that the rest of the world was like, fuck her, like, burn her, burn the witch. But I felt like that. When you were making that video, because it was a response to already controversial. Did you think, like, I'm crushing it? Did you think this could go the other way? Were people like, I don't think that's going to work. I really thought there was something to this idea of like every single woman I admire in history lived a life that wasn't relatable to anybody else. Like in my brain, like there was always that quote, right? That said, you know, if, if your life makes sense to other people, you're doing it wrong.

13:12And so I always was like, oh yeah, that's and to be totally fair because I've analyzed this from every fucking angle I was angry sure and I should you should never create when you're angry but I felt like and this can sound you can I can sound like a whiny bitch all day that's fine but to me I felt like I'm so tired of getting picked on yeah I am so and I'm sure people look at that and be like what are you talking about but like every day, no matter what I say, no matter what I do, I'm so tired of getting picked on. And I was pissed because when I had done a live stream the day before and someone in the comment section on the live stream, a woman said she was really struggling.

13:54She had severe depression. And she was like, my house is thrashed. It's so dirty. And I have so much shame about my house. And I was like, okay, well, you got two options. You can either just be okay with the fact that your house is dirty and right now is your time to focus on your health. Or if you can afford it, you could have someone come over and help you clean. And it was like, then people exploded. How did, that's totally unrelatable. Why would you give her that advice? And then they started attacking her. And I was like, I'm so sick of this. Even saying right now, it's like rising in my chest.

14:27And so I like just sat with it for a couple of days and I was like this word unrelatable, unrelatable. And I was like, oh, I, okay. Yeah, I'm not, this isn't. I have, you know, 60 employees I'm trying to hold together during COVID. I have, you know, four kids that I'm trying to raise and, you know, a little bit about what was going on on the other side. Like I'm doing all these things. This isn't relatable. continuing to show up like that was just where that was the intention and i thought i'm not the only woman who's probably doing things that feel like this um and just fucking idiot like i was just like i got a video idea see this is why you have to have someone post for you well there you go because they would have been like are you sure are you sure or like you just don't post in that moment.

15:18But Ryan, I've done this forever and I still slip. Of course. Well, everyone does. But I try to think about, I've thought about this where it's like, there's a difference between being angry and then doing something out of anger. And I try to separate those two things. God, that's good. Right? Because no one is saying you can't be angry. You can't have the feelings, which I think is what some people think stoicism is. Right? It's that you're some, and maybe that is, maybe that's the end state. That's the Jedi master state where you have transcended emotion. You cannot be provoked. You cannot be hurt.

15:51You know, you cannot be pricked. But I don't think any of us are there. But what we can do is before we take the action out of anger, we try to stop ourselves. We institute some pause. We have some sort of break. We look for the off ramp. And I just think like there is almost nothing. There's no time that I've ever done something out of anger that I'm like afterwards been like, well, so glad I did that. That made things so much better. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I think too, like it was perfect storm. We're in the midst of COVID trying to keep a company together, trying to keep 60 people employed, going through a divorce, hormonally unbalanced.

16:29I found out later, just like it was a perfect storm. And what, because I am the person that's like, okay, how is this experience for me? I wouldn't take it back I wish that I didn't upset people I wish that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings or make them feel like this was an unsafe space any of that But if I had to trade what I learned And I heard this once that like um, they asked people What was the worst thing that ever happened to you? Yeah, and if you had to give up that experience, but you give up everything that came with it Would you do it? Yeah, that most people would say no Well, that's the definition of what the obstacle is the way it is, right?

17:09Almost everything that was terrible in our lives ultimately form us into who we are. And so with enough time, we go, that was for the best. Like, I wouldn't have chosen that, but like, I wouldn't be here without it. Right. And then, so we know that intellectually, right? We look objectively at the course of our lives and we're like, I would not be here if I had not been there. And then we're here, we're in the middle of some shitstorm and we're like, why is this happening to me? It's so unfair. How do I stop this from happening? You know, I'm being picked on, whatever. And we don't, we can't, we can't flash forward and go.

17:47Someday. I'm going to give myself the gift of what I'm going to feel about this later now. Right. And that's what I try to do to the best of my abilities. I go, okay. Later, there's a line from Freud. He says, like, one day in retrospect, the struggle will strike you as most beautiful. And I go, this is the struggle. This is the thing. Like, this is three chapters into the book that you're not sure you're going to finish and you're thinking about quitting. When you do finish, you're going to be like, I'm so glad that I didn't quit. Yeah. Or this argument that you're having with your spouse, you're like, is this it?

18:19What are we doing? You're like, you know what? Like, this is going to be that thing, right? And I just try to think about that when I'm deep in the shit. Yeah. I go like, this is that thing that later, however it pans out, whatever direction. That is the beautiful, insidious, weird thing about life is that we're like, what if I regret X, Y, or Z? But you never regret it because in the future, you look back and you go, I wouldn't be where I am without it. You find a way to incorporate it into your narrative, into your life, into the story that you're happy with. Yeah. And so you're worried so much in the moment and you don't realize that like in the future that worry will not exist.

18:58So why not just not do it? Right. Yeah, I wish we could snap our fingers and get to that place immediately when we're inside of something. Well, I mean even in relationships. Like you know the thing you're mad about right now. You will not be mad about it next week, six months from now, a year from now. Like you just won't, right? You'll be like, why did I care so much about that? And then you're like, I will fight to the death on this right now. Right, in this moment. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, if you can just turn the intensity down, like if you can just be like, in the future, I'm going to feel, I feel a 10 about this right now.

19:28But in three months, I'll be at a four. Maybe I should try to not take a 10 level response. Yeah. To think, you know, it's been over two years to think that I could ever sit here with you and have this conversation and not have a full breakdown. I'm not exaggerating at all. That I could ever get to a place where I could talk about it. Oh God, I heard this quote. And I don't know whose it is, but it's one of my favorites, which is when we can remember something without emotion, it's wisdom. Oh, that's great. Isn't that great? Like when you're not affected, and I just remember I read that in the midst of everything, and I just remember someday, someday, Rachel, you're going to get to the place where this does not destroy you to think about, where you can just see the things that you learned.

20:15Because for me, I really believe 10 years from now, I'm going to look back and understand that the good girl, people pleaser in me, could never have continued to do work like this if I didn't accidentally do the worst thing I could think of doing. You know what I mean? That isn't even close to the worst thing you could have done. But for me, like one of my personal triggers, which I'm sure if I do enough IFS therapy, I'll understand why, is getting in trouble for something you didn't know was bad. This is my worst. It's not like you were embezzling money. No, and I knew it. So like it pops up all the time.

20:56My boyfriend's like, babe, like we'll walk through an airport and someone will be like, ma 'am, you can't go that way. And I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Like, I know. Like, don't take me to jail. He's like, calm down. So for that to have happened, like it just broke everything apart in the most painful way. But I remember one of my best friends saying at the time, she was like, people think that you learn the most. It's like you go to college, you sit in a classroom, a teacher is talking to you. She's like, no, we learn the most when something is deeply fucking painful. And this is deeply painful.

21:30And you will never lose the lessons that you take out of this because it was so hard to get them. There's a Bertrand Russell quote that I love that I think about often. He says, the first sign of an impending nervous collapse is the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important. And so whenever you think that this thing, it's like, I have to do this. The stakes are so high. Or when you're saying to people, you don't understand. It's nonsense. And you've gotten sucked into this vortex of ego and, you know, bad priorities and self-importance and all of that. And it's like, it really doesn't matter.

22:15Yeah.

22:19And in a few years, you're going to think about this and be like, what? Right. Why did I think it was literally a matter of life or death? Even if I'd done nothing, things would have been fine. Yeah. Like even if – let's say it had actually been some real cancelable event and you're just like, that's it. She never gets to make anything again. Her social media handles are taken away, whatever. You would have been fine. I mean, you wouldn't have ended up under a bridge. Right. Right. Like, what is the worst? Like, you think about when you read about people who really did fuck up their lives. Yeah.

22:51Like, they got a job at a restaurant. Right, right. You know what I mean? Which, like, most people are doing without – like, you'd be fine. Yeah. But you have this belief that you're the center of the universe and that you cannot function without your work, impact of your work. And that's also what's contributing to why you're so wrapped up and why you've lost all perspective and why this thing that seems normal to you is heard so radically differently by everyone else. A hundred percent. How do you bring that to your work? Like you're thinking about not taking yourself so seriously or not being so wrapped up in the importance of what you do, but you do have a massive following.

23:35You write books, you have the podcast, you have the bookstore. Like what is your approach to your work now that's maybe different than when you started? I try one, just like really easy thing. There's just some like, like we're talking about some distance between doing the thing and putting the thing out. Like, um, Cheryl Strayed said this thing one time that I really like. I think about it all the time. She said, there's a difference between writing and publishing. Writing is the thing that I like doing. That's the crap. That's what's important and meaningful to me. Then all the other stuff is publishing.

24:03Obviously, you get paid for publishing. You don't get paid for writing. You get paid for publishing, so you have to do it. But I just make lots of stuff, and then I have a team that helps get it to the other side. And I am also involved in the publishing, and I go, this could have been better. What about this? These are the deadlines. I'm involved in all that, but the main thing I care about, the place I'm actually the most demanding. My team might disagree, but they're not in my head, so they can't actually know. But where I'm most demanding is me sitting in front of the thing. So that's what I actually care about.

24:35That's where all the energy is going. And then I'm chiller about the other stuff. So I think about it, one, that way. Just from a logistical standpoint, you said you write an email every, is that seven days a week? I mean, I wrote an email upstairs while you were arriving. I'm probably three months ahead on Daily Stoke. Oh, is it like a paragraph? Is it – I'm positive my boyfriend gets it. Each Daily Stoke email, the Daily Dad ones, they're like 250 to 300 words. Okay. And then it's a podcast version of it. I do it in other meetings. But the point is I'm never like, what am I going to say today?

25:09I am making stuff and then we're figuring out how to use it. And so I think if you're like, what, I have to put up a post today. how did today's posts do, blah, blah, blah, then you're in a much more vulnerable place. But if you're just making stuff and you have it, for me as a creative, there's a lot of slack and space. I can not feel it today. I can really feel it tomorrow. I'm not like writing to publish. And so I think that's a really important way to do it. And it insulates you from the success and the failure of it. I think that's like a really important part of it. Yeah. The other thing is like, um, I, I remember, um, I remember when we were expecting, was that our first or second?

25:53There was something like, I guess it was our second. Um, like I, I got some offer to do something and it was like pretty soon after we had a kid. And, uh, and, um, I was like, well, I should obviously do this. It's like a lot of money. My mom's like, no, it's like too soon. You can't leave. And I was like, you know, if I was a, an NBA player, like I wouldn't have a choice. So I would just like have to, like, like I'd have a kid and then I'd like, there's a game the next day. Like I gotta go. And she was just like, are you an NBA player? And I was like, oh, you know, like, it was like horrible, but she was totally right.

26:26And then, and then actually like meeting different athletes were like, this person is paid 10 times, a hundred times what I'm getting paid. They're doing it for millions of people here. They're one of 500 people in the world that get to do this thing. And they're way chiller about what they're doing than I am. So I think once you see people who are operating at a world-class level, you realize like, oh, actually, the true masters are very chill. Yeah. And they're not like believing that they're the center of the universe. They have a certain humility and lightness about what they do. And so I'm not – I don't try to like affect that.

27:00Like I'm pretending to have it. But I do go like the highest form of this is not being a ball of stress and intensity and insecurity. It's being, what should I do today? You know, like, did I move a couple of brushstrokes here, do this, and then I'll come back to it later. Like trying, realizing that mastery is a very light place, not a very heavy place. That's good. I was just, I was thinking about this the other day because I was talking about it on a show, that the definition of success for me has changed so much over the last decade. What is your definition of success? That I get to live life on my terms.

27:41Like literally, I do. I can't believe that I have the job I have. I can't believe I get to hang out with interesting people and write words and that that pays for my family to take vacations. That feels wild. Yeah. I've had a massive company. I've had a little company and our team today, small but mighty, fucking love it. Jack and I've been together for 10 years almost. Like just that I just like get to do cool shit with cool people. That matters to me. And it used to always be about a number. Like, oh, if I could just make this much money a year, if I could just sell this many books. And I really have experienced the most success financially today when I just went back to old school Rach working on her blog, that energy of like, I am just going to put my head down and do my best to do really good work.

28:36And it turns out that that's when I've experienced the most success. So from the outside, like my Instagram's not growing. I'm not really doing much on social, but the podcast has never been bigger because I'm just like, I'm just going to put energy into this one thing, which just expands the kind of life that I get to live. But it's very focused. It's very centered and right here. It's not this big, expansive thing that I thought success was supposed to be. Yeah, my definition of success is very similar. It's one word. It's autonomy. Like, am I in control of my life or not? And I don't think people realize that the thing they are aspiring to is a kind of a prison or like for me, like a good day is I have like almost nothing in my calendar.

29:25Agreed. And that's not because I'm not working or doing anything. It's that my day is promised entirely to me and to the people that I want. So if the calendar is blank, it means I spent time with my kids in the morning. I took them to school. It means that I had a good morning writing. And then I had lunch and I read while I was reading. And then maybe I was like, Like, fuck, I'm just going to go home at two. Like, that's a good day, right? If it's scheduled from here to here, even if I'm being paid for every single one of those things, even if it's all, you know, going up and to the right. But if you're not in control of your life, like, how successful are you really?

30:05Yeah. And you're not the president. You know what I mean? Like, the world piece is not. There are some things where you're like, hey, this person is, you know, the head of this thing. Yeah. You know, like I'm a general in the Ukrainian army. Like, okay, this is a different, but that's not you. You live in Kansas and, you know, like success should be like, is the car dealership you own running your life or is it complimenting the life that you want to have? Right. And like, that's how you should think about it. I feel like for me, I make my kids breakfast every morning. I do their lunches, get them off to school.

30:40I'm there when they get home. I make their dinner. I do bedtime. I do the whole thing. And certainly I have to travel for work sometimes, but I don't even know that they realize I have a job because I work from home. So even this, like we're doing this while my kids are at school. So when they get back, like I'm just mom's home. Like there's no upset to that schedule. And I have the ability to do my work from anywhere in the world, which is the greatest gift. I've done podcasts in Switzerland when I was skiing and London when I was there visiting family and New York or wherever. That is, that's worth gold.

31:17Yeah. It's worth gold.

31:23This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This time of year is wonderful. It's quiet. It's peaceful. It's beautiful. It's also stressful and bleak and dark. And then there's the whole family stuff. You got to make sure you're taking care of yourself and you got to make sure you're taking care of your mental health. This time of year can be not just stressful, it can also be lonely. And therapy can help you make space and time to focus on getting well and feeling good. Consider trying BetterHelp Online Therapy in December as a way to close the year with clarity rather than chaos. With over 30 ,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally.

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34:01but i was thinking about this the other day like we there's some there's some part of us that knows that like too much success would take you away from that stuff right or we know like if suddenly you had a billion dollars it would fuck up your kids you know you'd have to get security right all these things that would come along with it right um we know that like we know that there's like some level above where we are could be one level above or could be 500 levels above that like to a point where it would be counterproductive or destructive. And then when you step back and you're like, but what am I working on day to day?

34:37The irony is you're working on getting there. Yeah. Like we know like, hey, this is what happens to people when they get there. Like when their band really blows up or when their book sells X number of millions of copies or when their startup gets bought for$10 million. We know they end up getting divorced. Their kids get drug problems. They have to go to these private schools. They never see it. Like we know, it's a cliche. We know what it is. And then it's like, so what are you working on? You know, like trying to get that. Right, right. I'm spending literally all, I'm spending all my energy trying to get to a place that I actually know would be bad.

35:13And then if you go, why are you doing that? And you go, for my family. I'm doing it all for my family. Right, right. The people who actually want you. Like I heard this, I saw this, I heard it. I saw this meme and it was like, who were the rich kids in school? And it was like the kids whose parents picked them up. And you didn't like, you realize now that those parents might have been picking them up because they didn't have a job. Or it could be because they had total security. But the point was, they were like, that was rich because like they got to see their parents. Yeah. Like, my parents were successful-ish, but like, we went to daycare after school.

35:50Yeah. And then, or I was a latchkey kid. Yeah, I was a latchkey kid. And then, like, I saw my parents for, like, an hour a day, you know? What kind of success is that? Now my parents have a dream life. They live in, like, a tropical island and are doing whatever. But, like, they traded the thing that they want now. Yeah. They could have had. And so really thinking about, like, what you want. Because that's the other thing is there's no guarantee that in the end you'll have the time to sit around and enjoy it. Well, there's no guarantee that you even get to the end. Yes. You know, this has happened in my own life so much.

36:28Like maybe four years ago, I lost my brother-in-law to a heart attack at 46 and then just lost my ex-husband at 47. And neither one of those men ever thought that was going to happen. Yeah. And neither did we. Neither did anybody in the family ever see a moment where they're no longer here. In fact, I remember at Michael's funeral, my brother-in-law, I remember Dave, there was a montage that played. And I remember him saying like, oh, aren't we lucky we still have more time for the pictures and the montage of our funeral. And then at his funeral, Jack, who obviously knew him very well, put together this beautiful montage of his life.

37:09and I was watching it at the funeral and just weeping because I'm like, you thought you had 40 more years for this video. You thought that that video was going to have your grandkids. You thought that that video was going to have this future that didn't happen. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. We never fucking know. Have you read Blue Nights by Joan Didion? No, but I will. So this is her table. Is it in the bookshop? I'm sorry, this is her table. This is the table her family would have dinner at. And there's this paragraph in the book where she's at her daughter's wedding. This is like July 2003. And she's walking on the street.

37:47She says, I wonder if someone walking down Amsterdam Avenue saw the mother of the bride and thought, before this year is out, her husband will be dead at their table and her daughter will be in a medically induced coma and leave this world just a few months later. And so you think these things happen to other people. And she talked about this. She was sitting in her kitchen with her husband, and he just keeled over and died. And I believe a heart attack. No, a brain aneurysm. And she rushed to the fridge where she had the number for emergency service, like for the hospital. and she said, I remember writing that number down and putting it on the fridge in case somebody in the building needed it, right?

38:39Like you never think it's gonna happen to you. You think these are things that happen to other people. And so there's this kind of arrogance or entitlement, this idea that we're the exception to the rule that won't happen to us. And this is why we put stuff off. This is why we take people or things for granted. And then it does happen. Yeah. And it's not just loss. It's like, hey, I have a platform. I get to do this dream job. But also, it can be taken from you. You can fuck it up. The rules of the game can change. You can be the victim of an injustice. You don't know how long you get to do it.

39:15So to not enjoy it while you do it, or worse, to procrastinate or to defer is a rejection of the gift that is the present that moment. Well, it's the myth of someday, right? Someday when the kids are older, someday when I have more time, someday when this, someday when that. There is no someday. There is no someday. There's this moment. And it's one of those things that's so much easier said than done. Of course. Because like, especially, I'm sure this is real for everybody, but I think especially if you're a parent, there's all these things we should do. Like, I think, I want to say it was Peter Atiyah was talking about when his kids are acting crazy and he gets really upset that someone who was an older parent had told him the next time that your kids upset you and you want to scream, imagine yourself at 80 years old longing for this moment.

40:08Yes. Which is so beautiful, right? Like, what a beautiful sentiment. But also, there are times where my kids make me want to run my head through a brick wall. I'm just like, kill me. Just let me. So it's this this beautiful thing to aspire to. And at the same time, I think it's easy to listen to a conversation like this and be like, well, that's nice, but I don't know how that works in my real life. Well, one thing I, so I totally agree. I may have had that conversation with Peter. No, because I think about that all the time. You go like, you go, at some point in the future, you would give literally anything for this moment that, one more of these moments that you're taking for granted, like one more bedtime.

40:49You would literally, you'd be like, I'll change your diapers one more time. Like the thing you hate, the thing you found the most disgusting, you would give anything to have again. That bit of perspective, though, does not make the diaper that you're doing now any less disgusting or the kid who's just complaining or the kid that's doing the thing that for the 500th time you ask them to stop. So you lose your temper, you get upset, you know, you go to your room or you're like, ah, you know, whatever. um what i think about from that is not that i expect some perfection from myself but i think like how quickly can i apologize like how quickly can i go like that wasn't who i want to be that's not where i want to leave this i'm not i'm not just going to be like sometimes you fuck it up and then like just let that sit in the relationship like i'm going to i'm gonna i'm gonna put in a deposit to try to compensate however much I can for the debit that I just needlessly took out.

41:46Right. Like just realizing that, um, I just think back to my own childhood, like how many apologies I can remember getting from my parents. Like I counted on one hand or any like, Hey, like I didn't mean that I was stressed out and how helpful it would have been to see that my parents were human beings who had their own emotions and were subject and victims to circumstance like everyone else did. And that sometimes those things overwhelm us and that that's not what life is. What life is, is realizing when you have done that and then going, okay, that's not how it should go. I'm going to try to do it over.

42:27Yeah. I saw this video or this reel on Instagram where the woman said, I think this is potentially the first generation where kids are growing up with parents who apologize. And what is that going to do to a collective consciousness as this generation gets older that you see the humanity in that? I cannot think of one apology or like I was stressed out. Or even for me, I have three boys. My youngest is a girl. But they all, all of those boys understand that there's a time of the month where I have let, I just, they understand hormones. They know the, and not in like a weird way, but I want them, I'm just like, guys.

43:08Your mom isn't always rational and on top of it. I'm just like, this is maybe not the day to start fighting with your sister. Like this just not, and they're like, okay, okay, we got it. We got it, mom. Like just the realness of, or I'm exhausted or, you know, I don't feel good today. That was not, clearly my parents were going through a lot, but they never talked about why they were maybe acting the way they were, which makes me wonder if they ever actually processed why they were acting the way they were or if they were just like, rub some dirt on it, keep trucking. Well, I've seen it with my own kids now.

43:44My kids are pretty like, I'm sorry, I lost control of myself. Or like, I'm sorry, I love you. I didn't mean to make, like, I think, you want your kids to apologize, take ownership of their behavior, to understand why they acted the way that they did. And the way to do that is to show that you also know how to do that and that you do that. Yeah, that's good. Instead of expecting yourself to be perfect or whatever. That's good. I needed to hear that today because my daughter's six and so she's getting to the age where she has better language to say to me, I'm sorry that I, you know, she's a wild human.

44:24But she'll be like, I'm sorry that I screamed at you because you asked me to take a bath. You know, she's getting old enough that she can like realize, oh, that probably wasn't my best behavior. But if I'm being honest, when I apologize to her, I don't think that I own the reason for it enough. So I'll be like, well, when you screamed at me, that made me feel frustrated. excited and so then so it's almost like it's still her fault yeah I'm realizing right now in real time like oh well mommy sorry that she you know couldn't you know she did like didn't have the ability to calm down or whatever um but that's such a good one it's so different than the way we were raised at least the way I was raised yeah yeah and I think about it with my parents too they had some idea that like they had to be like a united front at all times and so when the other one was being crazy or moody or too strict or irrational or triggered or whatever, then the other one would gaslight you as to, you know, that that's like not what's happening.

45:24So you're 14 and you're like, this can't possibly be about what's happening. I mean, she obviously just made a mistake and doesn't want to admit it. And then your other parents are like, that's not true. And you're just like, okay, this is weird. You know, and so the idea, I'm not saying you come in your room, hey, your mom's crazy. You know, like that's fucked up also. But just the idea that's like, hey, look, he or she is going through X. Yes. That's probably what's at play here. And hey, yeah, she took your iPad away or he took your iPad away. But I bet if you did your chores and you were chill after dinner, they'd be like, here, you can have it back.

46:05I don't really care about this. Yeah. Right? And the ability to teach them how to navigate the world and other people's emotions. It's not to say that actions don't have consequences, but that if you accept, like we're talking about, if you accept that other person's emotions and the causes of it, then you can orient your behavior and your response in such a way that it helps you get what you want after. How old are your kids? My oldest is six and my youngest is four. Oh, they're little. Oh, you're still in like little baby. Yeah, okay. I was curious if you had teenagers. No, I definitely don't.

46:42Because that's a whole separate, beautiful thing. Yeah, I saw another Instagram about this that my wife showed me. She was, someone was saying like, these parents that are like, teenagers, ah. And she's like, teenagers are the best. They're the best. They like good music. They're funny. They're literally so funny. They're so fun. Their friends are interesting. Oh, I love having teenagers. It's like the reason you don't like teenagers is that you're used to being a tyrant. Yeah. And this person doesn't just accept everything you say. Right, they're pushing back. And they're not scared of you. And that's why you don't like teenagers.

47:16Yeah. So I have this, the email and the account is Daily Dad. And like when I do see some of the comments, I go like, it must not be fun to be your kid. because you have like some strong dad energy, which is like, that's not how it is. Or the big one is like, you're not being respectful. You're not being respectful because they asked a question or they challenged the idea. Or I always think it's so funny when people bristle against, especially as parents, like you bristle against a kid questioning. Like, you know, my teenager going, well, why? Why is my bedtime this? Don't you want that? Yeah, I'm like, oh, well, I can explain it to you.

47:54So, you know, you should probably have this many hours of sleep at night. It's going to take you about 30 minutes to fall asleep. Like, I have no problem explaining it to them because they're like, okay, yeah, that does make sense. As opposed to my parents' favorite line, because I said so. I saw Jessica Gross wrote this piece in the New York Times and she was saying that your kids misbehaving in front of you or like having an emotional meltdown or whatever it is, is actually a sign that you're a great parent, not a terrible one. because the reason your kids are not doing that, the reason they're not asking why or trying to push back or when they're exhausted or scared or frustrated, you know, like acting out, the reason they're not doing that is because they're scared of you, right?

48:37And the fact that they're not scared of you, that your house is a safe space, they understand that deep down you have their best interest in heart. That's why they're doing that. But it can be really hard when your kid's having a meltdown to be like, not be like, I'm shitty or you're not how I want you to be. Right. But it's actually the opposite. It's like the reason your dog rolls over and gives you its belly is that it's fundamentally submitted to you, but it understands that you're not an aggressive, dangerous presence in their life. And the idea that you would want to be that in your kid's life is deranged.

49:14It's crazy. That you would want your kid to be scared of you and that's why they behave. I mean that'll I guess make your life easier in the short term because they might not do some stuff like when your back is turned or whatever. But like at some point they're going to be 26 and you're going to say, hey, what are you guys doing for Christmas? Cats in the cradle, man. They're going to say not coming home to your house. Yes. Your house is a fucking – what is it? Your house is a prison on planet fuck or something. Where was that movie? But like, you know, they're not going to want to see you. They're going to have their own kids.

49:52And they're definitely not going to want to see you. So I think a generation back, and maybe this, I'm sure this still happens culturally. We were still dealing with children who had parents that were shitty or did things or all of that. But it was like family is family. We're going to keep showing up. We're not going to question this. We're going to spend every holiday. That is not how the next generation is. That's already not how this one is. so the idea that you would continue to go into an environment that's unhealthy or toxic whatever I think a lot of these parents were like you will respect me you will do these things are betting on an old mentality I was actually I was at a baseball game recently my son plays travel baseball if your kids ever say I want to play a travel sport just like take out their kneecaps just don't this is gonna be your whole life but I was at a game hour and a half from my house because that's what we do on the weekends.

50:45And I was listening to some other moms talk. And one of the moms said, because all the boys are like really good friends. And one of the moms was like, man, when these boys get to high school, they're going to give us a run for their money because they're good boys, but they're like pranksters, they're loud, they're whatever. And another mom's like, yeah, no, for sure. And then another mom was like, not my son. absolutely not we teach him respect for his elders we just she just like starts going off and i was like oh this is fascinating you're literally like she for 10 minutes was saying all of the ways that he was required to show up respectfully and so he would never slip from this and i was like oh girl and instantly i asked my son later i was just out of curiosity this boy is he and he was like oh mom oh mikey that's what i thought that's what i thought because you're creating this like oppression.

51:38There's no freedom there. You can't make a mistake. You can't slip up in any way. Like even saying ma 'am or sir, things that are pretty simple. Everything is this great like you're being disrespectful. I thought you are, lady, you are going to, he is going to go to college and you are never going to see him again.

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54:18Well, I have some empathy for boomers because, yeah, they were the last generation that just sort of had to, like, however awful their parents were, like, they had to take care of them. Yeah. And so I think they parented under the assumption that that would be true. And the rules changed. People understood things differently. People learned things. People went to therapy, et cetera. And they're like, no. Like, I think about that. I'm very cognizant about what I allow around my kids. And so the fact that we're related doesn't mean that much to me. Amen. And so that's really hard. In the Daily Dad book, there's this song by the highway women, and they talk about the crowded table.

55:07They said a good life is at the end of your life. It's a crowded table. right like people want to be around you see your family yeah there's the the poet um robert stafford is some christmas or holiday or something and they're all there and he and his wife go to bed and they they they're in their bedroom and they can hear the kids who stayed uh talking about their childhood and their parents like in the other room and and he rolled over to his wife and he said something like this is the eulogy that we get to hear and if you think about your life is that. Like, if you think about how you want it to be 20 years from now, 30 years from now, 40 years from now, it's almost certainly whatever this thing you're writing your kids about or this thing you're holding on to or this judgment you're making or, you know, whatever it is, it's not going to matter.

56:03Like, you just think about you would do all you're going to want in the future is that your kids bring their grandkids around or come and see you or whatever. So what do you, what the fuck do you care? What color do they dye their hair or if they're gay or not or whatever? What do you care? You don't care. I literally care that they are good humans. That's it. And I have, it's so funny because I know a lot of parents who are obsessed with grades. They're already thinking kids in middle school or elementary school and they're already thinking about college and what that is. And my two oldest, I mean, the little kids too, but who cares they're in elementary school, but the two oldest get incredible grades.

56:47And I have no idea. Didn't ask that of them. Didn't encourage that. I'm just like, are you a good, don't be a jerk. Like what, who are you as a human? And my oldest is so driven to get into a good college. He really cares about that. I'm like, okay, like your mom's a hippie. Like I'll take you on a college tour. where I have no idea that's a self-motivated thing. But he has friends. I do this. Once a month, I have a dinner where all of the teenagers come over, which is the most fun. You guys should do it. It's so much fun. And we have these really interesting conversations just because their lives are wild as teenagers.

57:25But the pressure that these kids are under to get perfect, the anxiety they have because they got an A+. They're not going to thank you for that pressure later. They're going to resent it. It's bonkers. And I'm just, I'm always like, well, what would happen if you did, what would happen if you got a C? And they're like, oh, I'm like, you guys, I swear on everything I hold dear. A year from now, you will not remember the grade you got on the test that you're freaking out about right now. But there is so much pressure, which didn't come from them. That's from parents. So I find it ironic that my kids have been given freedom to just like be a good person.

58:03and they're automatically doing this thing, which isn't necessarily true for every child. No, but think back to your life. You were saying that your business grew and your things sold better when you stopped caring about certain external results or measurements when you were just doing it because you liked doing it. And that's certainly been true in my life. Like I've said before, like on my first book, I was like 90 % concerned with like how it was going to do and 10 % like, I can't believe I wrote a book. Like, this is my first book. Like, I succeeded that I did it. Yeah. And I would like to think that that ratio has come almost all the way around.

58:43Like, it's flipped. Like, on each book, I 10 % have to care like how it did because I got earned back in advance. Then the next one, and it's nicer to make more money than less money on a project. But I'm 90 % like, it was the book that I wanted to write. I put everything that I could have put into it. I fought for the things I needed to fight. And like, I'm proud of it. and it's good. And if it sells one copy or a million copies, I'm indifferent, right? Yeah. And the idea that you measure your success by the input, not the output, is, I think, a fundamentally different way of going through the world.

59:21But the earlier you pick up on that, you know, like, are you someone, are you measuring how your kids do in sports by, like, whether they win or lose, not like it's how you played the game, but like, are they the best that they could be at that thing? Like, are they fulfilling the extent of their potential in this endeavor? Are they trying their hardest? That's what matters. Yeah. It's interesting for my son who plays baseball. He loves it and he plays every sport. He does all the things. And the achiever in me, you know, more than once I've been like, we can get you a coach. Yeah. You know, his friends all talk about like, oh, if we're in the major league.

1:00:01And I'm like, I can get you there. I know how. We can get a coach. We can do the thing. We could whatever. If you want to. Yeah. And he's like, I just really like being on the team. Yeah. He loves his friends. He loves hanging out. He loves being physically active. And he's very clear on why he's doing this thing. So I'm like, fantastic. Great. Lead out, bro. I'm speaking at the Naval Academy next week. And one of the stories I'm going to tell, Jimmy Carter was like one of those kids, like the best and brightest of his generation. He gets into the Naval Academy. He is the only kid from this small town to go places.

1:00:40And he's interviewing for this job on a nuclear submarine, which is like at that time, like the penultimate thing you could get in the Navy. You were like a soldier and a nuclear physicist. Like you had to be pretty fucking great. He's being interviewed by this guy named Admiral Hyman Rickover. And Rickover was the head of the nuclear Navy at that time, basically invents the idea of ships and submarines being propelled by nuclear power. And he conducts all the interviews himself. So it's this long interview. They talk about all this stuff. And he goes, so how did you stand in your class at the Naval Academy?

1:01:15Carter's like, you know, I was the 81st out of, you know, 500.

1:01:23and Rickover goes, did you always do your best? And he's like, of course, you know? And then he stops himself and he's like, I know there's that one class and there's this other thing and he's like, I was a little, you know, I could have done this extra credit thing and I didn't always read all the books. Sometimes I was just thinking about it and he goes like, no, I didn't always do my best. And then Rickover just goes, why not? and then he gets up and leaves the room. And that question fundamentally changes Carter's life. It's not just like, did you always do your best? But why didn't you always do your best?

1:01:58And that shapes his life. It's what propels him into the presidency. But also all these other things he does later. The presidency, by a lot of people's metrics, wasn't a success. But to him, he was like, I was the best president I was capable of being. And it insulates you both from the ego of success, but also the sort of crushing disappointment of falling short. It's like, did you do your best? And that's such a, not were you the best? Like, did you have the most? Did you sell the most? Did you make the most? Were you the most famous or well-liked or whatever? But like, did you do your best?

1:02:36That's such a fundamentally different question to measure your life by. Yeah. Years ago, I went to see, it was three or four women on a panel who had all built really big companies. And one of them was older, a mom, her kids were grown, and she was a single mom building this company that would then be worth millions, but had done it, you know, with the help of a nanny. And she said one of the things that she felt like best contributed to raising children who ended up being good adults and they still had a great relationship was she taught her kids to ask, mommy, are you doing your best? So she said more than one time I would call home and I would have to say, I'm so sorry.

1:03:21I can't make it home for dinner. I got to stay at the office. I got to get this work done. And they'd say, OK, mommy, are you doing your best? and she was like, you know, sometimes I'd be like, yeah, baby, I am doing my best and I, I can't come home right now. And sometimes they'd say, mommy, are you doing your best? And she'd say, you're right. I'm on my way. Yeah. I'm on my way. And I remember she, she had to be in her sixties at that point. And she was talking about, and she got emotional. She always welled up with tears of like teaching a seven-year-old to ask you, are you doing the best that you can in this moment then also taught that child to ask themselves that question it also reminds me of a little trick that i use for myself is what's one percent more what's one percent more that you can give in this moment what's one percent more that you can add to this workout what's one percent more that you can use for your health right now it's sort of that gym quick idea that we'll never just read one page we'll never just practice the guitar for 60 seconds.

1:04:22But if you challenge yourself to just go, what's 1 % more effort right now, that 1 % stacks on top of each other to become such a better way of doing anything that doesn't feel as daunting at the time. Yeah. Like when I'm writing my sort of criteria for the day is usually like, did I make some kind of positive contribution to the thing? So you write a criteria for the day? No, no, no. If I go like, did I do my job today? As a writer, it's like, I move some stuff around. Maybe I wrote 20 pages, but I did the job if I made a positive contribution today. And that can be very small. So when you shrink what that contribution has to be, you're more likely to hit it.

1:05:10And then if you just do that consistently over a long enough time, like work comes out of the other side. So I think, you know, obviously there's also this idea of perfectionism, which can be very crippling. But if you're just like, hey, like I did something positive today. Like I did one good thing. I made one contribution. I go, that's, that's what I'm trying to do. It's like consistency versus intensity, right? Like we think, oh, I'm going to go get in shape. I'm going to go. I feel like I might be quoting you to you, which is scaring me a little bit. Okay. This is not your quote. This is one of my fears.

1:05:42I read so much. I'm like, oh God, if you're like, I know I wrote that six years ago. But the idea that we get really excited about a goal or we're going to change our life in some way. And so you're like, I'm going to go get a gym membership and I'm going to go do three hours because it's the new year and I'm pumped. And then you go again tomorrow and you do one hour because it's a new year and you're pumped and then it all fizzles away. That's intensity. But what is actually life-changing is consistency. It's doing small amounts that add up and stack one on top of the other that take you to the next level of wherever it is you're trying to go.

1:06:16Yeah. And it is kind of shocking how quickly it adds up. So real. I'll talk to people and they're like, you know, I'm trying to write this book. And it's like, you don't try to write a book. You are writing a book or you're not, right? Like, are you doing it? And then eventually you will have done it. It's not this thing you do in a fit of inspiration. It's not a marathon that has like a starting gun and then it's over in three hours. It's like an ongoing thing. And then you start the next one right after. You just keep going. Do you write one a year? um that's kind of been the thing i've been on for more than 10 years now and then i finished a book in january or december like i finished the draft of this i'm doing this four book series on the cardinal virtues and um so i finished what is the third book and um i called my publisher and i was like um this is supposed to come out in september i want it to come out the next september so i took a year, which I've never done.

1:07:24And now I'm wrestling with like, I still have work I have to do, like just generally as a person, but I am wrestling with what it means to be a person that is not in the middle of writing a book. That's a feeling I haven't had since my early 20s, which is weird. Yeah. When I published my first book, I went on a tear and I just kept going, kept going. And I think I definitely got to the place where I was burned out with what I was doing. Also because I realized in retrospect, I was doing too many other things. I was on the road every week speaking and doing keynotes and I had a podcast and I had a business and all this stuff that really didn't fill the well.

1:08:04So there was like nothing that I could. And I actually wrote an entire book, an entire book, Ryan, that I scrapped because I was, this was 2020. So the beginning of 2020 is when I would have started edits on that. And it was also, you know, the world was exploding. And I was just like, the world's a mess. I hate what I've done. And in retrospect, I should have like edited it and worked with it, but I feel like it all happened exactly as it was meant to. Um, but that book was written. There just wasn't anything left. Like I just, I had nothing to share or talk about cause I was emotionally depleted.

1:08:45Um, So to get to this place of turning in the book last week was so huge for me because I was like, you know, when you turn in a draft and you're like, this is shit, but there's something here. Like, I think there's something here. And if I do nine edits on it, then there will be. You trust the process because you've seen. Yeah. You've seen C minus get turned into an A. A hundred percent. This is the problem, I think, for anybody who hasn't done basically anything is they're seeing the A and they don't understand that it starts with God. Like I'm embarrassed that my editor's reading this. I literally, she was like, let me read it a couple of times and then let's have a call.

1:09:24And I was like, two times? Are you sure? Now you, once you've done it, you realize all the different valleys and peaks that go through the process and then you can just trust it. Yeah. Like when people say trust the process, it's very hard to trust a process that you've only been told about. But you do. The first time, it's a whole leap of faith because people who have been through it are like, no, no, this is the road. This is, you go, yes, you're going to feel like you're going in the wrong direction at some point, but if you just keep going, it eventually gets there. So you do have to have that kind of trust.

1:09:51But then later, it's much easier to trust the process because you're like, you start and then at some point you finish. If you just don't quit, at some point you finish. And to have that is good. For me, on this thing, what happened was basically is like, I just did this book on discipline. And actually, I had a chapter and I was talking about Joyce Carol Oates. And every time she finishes a manuscript, it sits in a drawer for a year. She sits on it for a year. She thinks about things. She tweaks, you know, she keeps notes, but then she comes back to it in a year. And I remember just going like, that is so cool, but obviously not possible.

1:10:28And then I was just like, if I can't do that or if I can't not write, then how can I have any credibility to talk about discipline? If I don't have the discipline to take things slow or to pause or to give myself space, then I'm kind of full of shit. And so I took – I'm taking the – I'm like three months into it. So I'm still like – So like, ah. I'm still like, yeah, adjusting to the jet lag or whatever of it. but it's a very different feeling. And you could still write. I mean, still writing. I still write the daily emails. I write articles. I'm still, and I'm researching for the next, but I'm just not, like I should be start, if this book had gone through the editing, then I would be getting ready to start in June, the fourth book in the series.

1:11:17And to just not have that looming in my mind is both very freeing, but then also very disorienting. Because I don't, you know, it's like, hey, football season starts at this time. And then you report and then this. And that's just not there. And you get very used to being in a certain vibe or zone. You have a rhythm. Absolutely. Well, this was awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Oh my gosh, of course. This was really rad. Sweet. and very easy. I always feel like when it goes so fast, it's like, okay. That's a good sign. Yeah, good sign. When you're like, you look at the clock and you're like, wait, has it been like 22 minutes?

1:12:00Yeah. Oh God, that's the worst. When you're like, whenever I'm not present with an interview where I'm like, holy shit, like I better come up with what we're going to talk about next because people are answering like with three words. You're like, oh no. That's a rule for me. Like, you know, you're living the life that you should be living. or you're working on something that's meaningful and important when you forget what day it is. Yeah. Or you lose track of time. Yeah. And if you don't, if you have a very keen sense of like, you know, I've been here for one hour and 12 minutes and my shift ends in this, like that's a sign that what you're doing sucks and it's sucking your soul out of you as you're doing it.

1:12:38And so it's good. If you're not losing track of time, that's a bad sign. And I think about that with the pandemic, like, you know, when we lose track of what day it was, people are like, oh, this is so bad. I was like, no, this is what happens when you're just present with your family. Yeah, yeah. Like you're not going anywhere and you're not trying to go anywhere and you're not measuring yourself against other people. You're just like, what are we doing today? Yeah. And it's like pinking the brain, the same thing we do every day. You're going to take over the world. Yeah, we're just here. We're just fucking here.

1:13:06That's what we're doing. So I'm thinking back. I was actually just writing something about that, about how there – remember the early days. So three years ago, today basically, we would have been waking up and being like, what are we going to do all day? Like you felt like you had so much, like we were doing hobbies and then you'd be like, oh, I'm going to Zoom with like my, this kid I went to high school with for two hours and then I'm also going to get all my work done. There was a beauty in that time. The day is the same length now. But today you're like, where did the time go? And so what happened?

1:13:40During COVID, the gift of that time period was that I realized how much time I wasted. Driving back and forth to an office, meetings oh my god meetings traveling doing the gift of like holy crap my productivity which should be me creating stuff should be the only metric of what i can do other people can do other things in the business but i'm the only one that can record a podcast or write these words and when i realized that i could be so productive and be present at home and be the kind of mom i want to be and i I was like, I will never go back. I'll never go back. But then you do go back. It creeps.

1:14:20You got to start over again. We've managed to maintain a pretty good system of we see each other when there's a podcast shoot. We have a weekly Zoom where I was like, how's everyone doing? Your ski troop was good. We're on Slack. That's just how we do the business. And honestly, Jack could be on a beach drinking pina coladas as long as the videos get edited. I don't care. No, totally. So yeah, there was a gift in that for sure. All right, I'll shut up because we'll just keep talking forever.

1:14:52Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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