Renée Mauborgne On Blue Oceans, Disruption, And Succeeding By Being Yourself

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1:30Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:24Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. A lot of books have influenced me over the years. I've raved about them. But probably maybe one of the most influential business books that I've ever read actually has had a huge impact on the outside just business. It's this book, Blue Ocean Strategy. The idea that you create new markets rather than trying to compete in and win in an already competitive market. And it's one of the best-selling business books of all time and sold like 5 million copies. I actually did the marketing for the sequel, this book called Blue Ocean Shift.

3:04And I got to know the author, Renee Maborn, over the years. That's one of the things actually we talk about this in the Daily Stoic Reading Challenge. It's like, just reach out and meet the people that have written books that you like. They don't get contacted as much as you think. I would say I personally do not have time for any more emails or whatever. So if I don't respond, you're listening to this, sorry. But anyways, I got to know Renee and I was very excited to have her on the podcast. Her new book, Beyond Disruption, Innovate and Achieve Growth Without Displacing Industries, Companies or Jobs came out on May 2nd.

3:44You can go to the website, blueoceanstrategy.com. They're on Instagram and Twitter at blueoceanstrategy, but it's missing the A and the E. I'll link to that in today's show notes. But you'll see in the interview, I talk about all the ways that the book has influenced me. And you would not be listening to this podcast without the concept of a blue ocean, finding where no one is, finding, creating a new market. There was not a big market for books about stoicism in 2011, 2012, or practical philosophy really at all. And I've just always thought about that in the work that I do. How can I be the only as opposed to the best?

4:25I try to also be the best, but I prefer to start with only to be one's unique self. And Renee Maborn is a very unique, innovative, interesting, creative author. Her co-author, Chan Kim, also a fantastic dude, I have found that single author interviews go better. So that's why I'm talking to Renee. And I think you're really going to like this new book. Check out Beyond Disruption. If you haven't read Blue Ocean Strategy, we carry it here in the Painted Porch. Grab that. And in the meantime, enjoy this interview.

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7:36so I was thinking about this the other day which is how do you know something is a blue ocean and not something that just no one else is interested in do you know what I mean like that it that the field has been as opposed to the field is unoccupied the field is undesirable or abandoned? You know, we talk about in Blue Ocean Strategy, the six different ways we see that companies create these blue oceans and asking yourself, you know, there's two industries that are alternatives. Can I offer the best of both? And if I can offer the best of two alternative industries, could that not be a better space?

8:17And then asking yourself, what is the leap in value? Or if there's two, like we talk about Citizen M, this hotel chain, and it said, why do people go to four or five star hotels. It's definitely not for the price. It's not for, you know, the doorman at the front door. It's just to have a beautiful night's sleep and to have a gorgeous shower. Yeah. But then why do I trade down? Well, I trade down and maybe for location, I trade down price. And can I offer those two and eliminate and reduce everything else and open up a new space? So I think it's really those six paths are about ways of thinking about value and knew different vectors that other people hadn't.

8:56So we tried to lay out those six different ways. Yeah. Because you know, you're thinking about writing a book and you're like, you always, first you think, has someone else written this book? Right? You don't want to write a book that a thousand other people have already written on that topic. And then you go, no, no one's written about this. And is it, have they not written about it because it's a brand new idea? Or have they not written about it because they thought about it and there's something that doesn't work about the idea or that doesn't work about the market. Yeah. You know, in our new book, you know, we're talking about, you know, is it something that people are really struggling with in their life?

9:32Yeah. So that means that there's often hidden value there. Yeah. Or is it an opportunity they don't even realize that I see I could bring to them? And if there's a real opportunity, and then the second question is, who cares about it besides me? Who cares about this struggle besides me or who could benefit from this opportunity besides myself. And when that pool is big and you believe the idea can make and addressing that can make a real difference, then I think you're onto something. So even when we looked at Blue Ocean Strategy itself, the book, we saw the whole field of strategy at the time and the world of business was all competing.

10:11but what we saw was that at the time in the late mid to late 1980s the American economy was killed getting killed by this rise of competition yeah so the very thing we're teaching is how to be competitive was the very thing that was killing people or killing companies or hurting them so we asked ourselves is there another way beyond competing to thrive um that instead of just surviving we could thrive can't we not also create right and then we said if we could create how important is that? How much could that make a difference? And so when we thought, well, wow, if we can create jobs and we can create new industries and new employment, help communities, that's an important area.

10:52And I think that's like for us in writing a book, that's how we thought actually. Because when we were doing this bookstore, obviously there's not a lot of competitive bookstores in a small town in rural Texas, right? You're the only one doing it, but are you the only one doing it because it's crazy? Or is it a virgin or, you know, free market? Like, is it a market that you can own and dominate? Then it's exciting. Or is it not actually big enough to support what you're doing? I think just because – what's tricky, I guess, about a blue ocean is that there can be – there's different types of them, I guess.

11:33Well, you know, I would ask myself, you know, so you could say some people would say there's a puddle and there's a blue ocean. Yes, yes. That's right. And the question is, is it just because people often confuse, you know, a niche because blue ocean strategy tends to be about de-segmenting, not segmenting. Right. And so then the question becomes, are we really just tackling a small niche that's really interesting and it's my fancy and I love it and I want this one thing because it means a lot to me. But it's not that so many other people are looking for that. And so, you know, the bookstore thing, I mean, I think that's a valid question when you see Amazon's power in the bookstore industry and how fast you can get a book and you get the recommendations and things like that.

12:16So, yeah, it's very important to ask yourself, is it a blue ocean or am I creating a blue puddle? Right. And am I de-segmenting customer segments, therefore I'm growing this side of the market? Right. Or am I actually doing micro-segmentation? Right. No, that's a great distinction, a puddle and a blue ocean. Because people go like, I'm scratching my own itch. Yes. But you need more than that. Than your own itch. Yeah. You can't be like, people go, I'm making this for people like me. Yes. But how many people like you are there? Correct. And that has to be a large number in most cases. So like in Beyond Disruption, we talk about the first question you need to ask is who really cares besides me?

12:57Sure. But then the second thing, and by the way, not everyone has the ambition to become the next big company. You could say, really, who cares besides me that I could have a bookstore that can sustain a few employees myself, make enough profit. Maybe that is the ocean for me. That's my definition of an ocean. Yeah, like I had Kevin Kelly on. It could be a thousand people. That's it. It's got to be more than one. It has to be more than one. And you have to be realistic to say, what am I going for? Yeah. So, you know, you don't want to ever live in illusion by yourself. And you say to yourself, I'm going to do this because I want it.

13:32I know 10 other people that care, but I haven't really assessed. And I'm hoping to become the next Home Depot in what I do. Then you go into illusion, right? And so this is where you have to be very, very careful. But then you can get very creative in how you start to scope a market to really get an assessment of how big it could potentially be. Yeah. Yeah. It's like your passion for the thing is essential. If you don't care about it, if you're not obsessed with it, if you don't live it, if it's not the most exciting thing in the world to you, you have to have that. But you also have to have the objectivity and the rationality to zoom out and go, how many people are like me?

14:10How many people care? Who cares about it besides me? Do those people have disposable income? You have to ask yourself a bunch of questions that takes you out of that passion and lets you see it objectively as a business decision or business opportunity. Well, you know, to that point, I would say, so the first one is passion is absolutely critical. Yeah. But it's also critical because there's always roadblocks along the way. It's never a straight line. Sure. And the minute you don't have passion, and I see that people give up so easily in life because they're just pursuing So having it matter to you.

14:47If you thought it would be fun or if you thought it would be easy, you're not going to get through the dips that you're inevitably going to face. Yeah. And then the second thing is really, you know, to your point about besides just my one is how many people are struggling with it. Yeah. Because if they're struggling and you can relieve that struggle, that's a good indication most likely there's going to be compelling value. Sure. Right? Right. And that, or the second thing is if I do this and they're not struggling, they don't realize it, but I can create a huge opportunity for their life. Yeah.

15:18And that can make a difference. And then you want to start to assess how many people face it, either the struggle or the opportunity. And then how can I articulate that to them? So they realize that I'm stepping in to solve that issue for them or create that opportunity for them. Yes. The funny thing. So yeah, when we're doing the bookstore, it's like, this seems like a crazy idea. Maybe it's ended up being really fun and interesting. But I went through the same thing when I went to my publisher and I was like, hey, I want to write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy. They were not like, that sounds like a great idea.

15:50Because there wasn't potentially a big market there. They thought it was a small market or they thought it wouldn't work. And then what's been funny is as the books have worked, so it was a blue ocean. But then what you face when you move, when you create a blue ocean or you move into a blue ocean is that it doesn't stay blue for very long. Then other people move into that ocean because you have proved it or you have, you've discovered it. You're not, it's, you don't get to keep it to yourself for very long. Now it depends on the industry. Yeah. And it depends on how fast you know how to roll out and dominate your space.

16:27Yeah. So one is, so that, so a lot of the blue Ocean's last 10, 15, 20 years. I remember when Blue Ocean Strategy came out in the 10-year anniversary, when you look back, those companies were all still thriving, all of them. Most of them are still thriving today. And while their whole industries may go up and down, they tend to be at the top of their industries nonetheless. It doesn't mean they don't get hit. So that's number one. So the second thing is once I create something and I know people are on that, then the question is how do I start to dominate that space by having maybe multiple books in that area or reclaiming this space so I become like the Kleenex.

17:03We all know we still think of Kleenex tissues. How do I start to do that in that area? And to your point also about, I think I read once or you mentioned, but I think I read that when you wanted to bring this idea, because you believe deeply in it, the publishers weren't as excited as you were in this. No. I got half for The Obstacle is the Way what I'd gotten for my first book, which is a marketing book. That's right. And I think then that is also a matter of how you are, because we, like, so I was telling some of the people in your team is great. So Chan and I, one thing that we were always reading philosophy.

17:38Yeah. Oh, it is like before school, it was like our passion, right? Sister on the good life, the collection, all of this. And anyone who reads it knows how profoundly insightful and important it is for any day, everyday life. Sure. So then the question becomes, how do you express that idea to whoever it is you're selling it so they can see the value and they can relate to it? Because the minute you say to someone, I teach you ancient philosophy. No thanks. No thank you. Sure. And the second you open a book and you start reading, even 10 minutes, you're like, if you just pause, there's so much wisdom in it.

18:14So I think it's also learning how to know how to articulate that so people can see also that you are solving that problem to go back or you are creating that opportunity. And often people have that passion. They think there's a lot. But when they get the first pushback, actually they don't really have the resolve. Yeah. And they don't. And then you have to say, well, wait a second. Maybe it's not right. And so I should give that up. But maybe I really just have to think about how I'm articulating that. How am I, so I can have a diamond and I put it on white, uh, white piece of paper and no one sees its beauty.

18:51So have I created the black velvet that I'm articulating my idea so that people can see the value of what I'm doing. And I think, you know, people can, um, I think people give up a lot sooner than they should. And they don't realize that the journey, um, will always have these points and you need to, you know, you need to have a little bit more staying power. No, that's true. Like when, because I wrote the Daily Stoic and that's what's popular on social media, people hear the Daily Stoic. So they think that I led with Stoicism, right? Actually, The Obstacle is the Way, which was my first book about Stoicism, it says the word Stoic maybe three or four times.

19:35Because what I realized is that most people do not think philosophy could help them, but they do wake up and think, I have problems. And so I tried to present philosophy as the solution to said problems. But when you understand what reservations people have, then you understand how to present it to them in a way that does not activate that resistance or that skepticism. And so later, after that book had been popular and another book had been popular, then I was able to publish The Daily Stoic. Then the word stoic was more palatable, but it wasn't at first. And so it is funny now, like sometimes when people see a market or someone dominating a market, they go, oh, I want to get in there.

20:21They don't actually understand how that person came to reach that audience. So people have published lots of books about stoicism since, but the word stoic still has the same headwinds against it, right? And so they wonder perhaps why the books don't work as well. They haven't actually thought about what I've had to spend a lot of time thinking about, which is what are people dealing with? What are people's reservations? What are their hesitations? And then how do you get at them? And I think a lot of the companies in Blue Ocean Strategy think about like, hey, why doesn't this demographic tend to go to the gym or why people don't stay in types of hotels.

20:56And they build around that. And then other people see them serving that market and they think it was a foregone conclusion that that market would line up with this product. And it's actually, there's something deeper, more subtle going on there. Yeah. And I think you're hitting on a critical point there from the perspective of Blue Ocean Strategy. It is looking at why everyone turns away. So you're framing by flipping it to the results of stoicism as opposed to the word stoicism. So in other words, obstacle is the way. Ego is the enemy. And you start in the reverse, that opens it up beautifully.

21:33And then you're saying you only mentioned it three or four times. It's just like, let's not tell them exactly right away what this heavy word is. And it's very critical. So I think at from your perspective, why did people turn away and what makes something feel heavy? And you still talk to what are their problems, right? So obstacle, you see the word obstacle, and we all got them every day of our life. What's the universal part of what you're trying to do? Correct. And then it is the way, which is the answer. So here's the problem. The problem is the obstacle. So is it my problem only? Who cares beside me?

22:15Everybody's got that obstacle. and then guess what? I have a solution. It's called the way. And now it's like, Ryan, he's speaking to me, right? And so you're opening up this blue ocean in that whole field of space and you're doing something even more beautiful. You're introducing people to a world of thought as a first step that they can actually migrate to if they want to, right? So, you know, in our book, even, you know, we talked about yellowtail wine and blue ocean strategy. Many people in Europe are horrified by that example. Oh, you're ruining it. I'm like, actually, though, many people never had wine because of it had wine.

22:52And as their palate became more sophisticated and they enjoyed it, they actually went to the more refined wines. And I think you kind of, and not to dumb down that, but you created a stepping stone, which opened it up. And you pulled in people from sports to it. You pulled in all these non-customers that would never think they're diving into philosophy, right? So Ryan, let me put it here, the next Blue Ocean book. We are going to have Ryan and stoicism in that because you really looked at that, you know? And it was something that really mattered to you, that passion issue. Yes. In Blue Ocean Shift, didn't you talk about like life coaching in general?

23:29That that wasn't a market that existed because it had certain connotations and then certain people figured out how to make that accessible. And I think that's a very underrated skill because people want to identify with the higher end, the fancier side of things. And then they don't understand all the privileges and skills and knowledge that allowed them to get there. And they don't understand that these other people are not really that different than them. And they'd love to be over here too, but they need some means to get from where they are to over here. and that a lot of the sort of entry point things actually are doing a really good service.

24:12Well, they are, but not only that, not everybody actually wants to get there. Sure. So a lot of people like, you know, really love a lot of the, that's why the businesses are still thriving. They actually love it. So I think there's also the assumption that we all have to get there. Sure. But there's a lot, like, I love Costco. I love Costco. Of course, Costco's the best. Yeah. And so Costco's a classic blue ocean. am I looking for something higher? No, just give me that card and get me through the door and I'm a happy camper. And so, you know, we don't necessarily have to, but it can provide a stepping stone as well.

24:47Yeah. And that's the beauty of it as well. Well, I just mean like people, like, like you said, you take, if you like wine, you take it for granted that you like wine and that wine is good and that it's not intimidating or difficult, or you just, you just assume that people have the palette that you have and they don't. And they're intimidated by the things that are easy for you. And I think some of these sort of mid-level or entry-level products, what they are is they're just more accessible because the person actually understands who these other people are and what those hesitations are, what those reservations are, what those fears are, whatever that is, and they give them a means with which to enter that universe.

25:34And yeah, some of them make it all the way to the high end, but some of them are just plenty happy with somewhere along that spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the paths to Blue Ocean Strategy is, you know, to shift the buyer group of the industry and then ask, why are these people refusing your industry? Yes. And why don't they go? Right. So, you know, even when, well, we have in our new book, Andre Ryu, the classical music maestro for the masses. He looked at it and people feel like these fancy theaters. Do I belong in those theaters to hear classical music? The conductor has his back torn to you the whole time.

26:11You don't know when to applaud or not to applaud. And there's all these things that actually make people feel like they're not qualified to be there. Intimidation. And so by releasing that and you find out why you don't go, you open up that whole new space. So yes. And that's one of the paths. I was just talking about that with my wife the other day because my kids like movie scores. If I turned on classical music, they'd be like, what is this? This is horrible. But they'll listen to movie scores. And the other day we were like, no, this is a movie score from Star Wars. And they lost their mind.

26:46And there's fundamentally not a huge difference between a classical symphony and a movie score. Like, right. It's the same orchestra. It's the same, it's got a conductor. It's got all the same instruments. It's just one is meant to more profoundly elicit emotion because it's designed to accompany film. And then, you know, because it's accompanying the film, you know, the little, the little thumbnail that shows up in the car stereo, it has the Star Wars logo as opposed to, you know, something else. So our kids had an entry point into classical music through its connection to something that they understand and like, whereas if I said, hey, do you want to listen to Bach?

27:32They would be like, what are you talking about? I think that, you know, and this is where Andre Rieu, our example is very important too. There's different levels of classical music. There's some pieces, o mio bambino caro, almost anyone who hears that. Like they'll pause. Even a kid. And so I think also it's like, are you introducing people to music and the pieces that get into the movie scores are those much more easily digestible pieces of the classical music. And I think that's very important as well. And then I think the other thing as well is, and in his concerts, he mixes that with maybe something from Celine Dion.

28:09And so it's not just this constant, it's this little bit of variety. And so, yeah. And I think that's very important too. Yes. Yeah. Snootiness and condescension are the enemy of reaching people that would love your stuff. Right. And that sort of elitism I think is, is a problem. I think maybe it's like, I would maybe articulate it is, you know, meeting people where they are, because not everyone has the same exposures. And then trying to take them the next level up or just not next level up to be derogatory, but into another ocean of imagination of what could be for them. Yes.

28:54Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, Thought this isn't going to work. Stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields.

29:33and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that.

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31:00The other thing I was thinking about with Blue Ocean is, like, what's interesting is that every single person is totally unique. Like, we each have a Blue Ocean just by nature the second we're born, right? Our DNA has never existed before. And then every experience we have, the time and place that we're born, like, each person is totally unique and special. And instead of seeing that uniqueness as like our destiny, the shame of modern society, I guess society is for all time, has been that we seed that ocean and we become... More red ocean. Yes, we become like other people. We do what other people do.

31:44We go to the same schools, we have the same affect, we learn the same rules, dress the same way, and then we wonder why life is, you know, such a bloody competition. Yeah. So, you know, we've had people and, you know, we actually have a little side project always about, you know, you can have a blue ocean family, your blue ocean life. So if you even go to New York City, there are parents that are paying these high fees to get their kids in the same schools, to take the same classes. From kindergarten on. Yes. But the whole family is stressed. The husband is working hard to make this happen. The wife is running around trying to figure, or the husband, I don't mean to do gender roles, get these kids.

32:26Kids are stressed out because they don't want to be in ballet. They don't want to do this. Instead of just saying, well, wait a minute, stop. All we're spending our time is keeping up with everyone else. And by the way, all those other people, most of them are not happy either. So it's unhappiness chasing and imitating unhappiness. Yes. To win a prize that you might not want. That's right. Instead of just stepping back, and this is, you know, the important point about Beyond Disruption and Blue Ocean is having the ability to have an independent point of view to recognize your agency and to create that life.

32:57But, you know, and you can create a Blue Ocean life yourself as well. You know, I always tell young people, like if you're doing every, so like it's a problem for top MBAs. they go into the top MBAs, they all graduate, they're all overachievers, multiple talents, a lot of things. And they all go into the top companies where they're all equally. Generations of that same person. And they're all equally outstanding. And then they wonder a few years later, like, how come they're not there? And I'm like, well, as long as you're equally outstanding in the exact same ways, you're not standing apart. So now your question is, what does your strategy look like?

33:34And what could you eliminate and reduce in what you do to give you the space and the resources, but just even the mental space to raise and create so you can stand apart, but also have more happiness and fulfillment for yourself. And I think this idea of not having your ideas and your existence tee off from the other person, but tee off from yourself, but from adding value to go to that value perspective. So, yes. There's a Stoic you might like named Agrippinus who he said that, he said, society is like a sweater. And he said, you know, the sweater's all white. And he said, I want to be the red thread that stands out in the sweater but makes the garment beautiful.

34:18And I think there is this tendency to want to do what everyone else is doing because it's safe, because it's comforting, because it's clear. Standing out is scary. It's risky. It's not like it's a guarantee that you'll be a success. but it is what makes life interesting and it's where innovation and creation and disruption, all these positive things come from. It's from the people who do it differently, who are their unique selves and leverage their unique talents. Yeah. And I think growth and comfort don't always exactly go hand in hand. So when you want to grow and you want to do something different, you have to be willing to step in.

34:58Now, mind you, I don't think when Steve Jobs did it, he felt he's stepping to uncomfort because he's able to look at things and step back and say, it doesn't make sense. Yes. 20 computers doesn't make sense. I even can't figure this out. We need to simplify, right? So it comes from that. But I think there is that level for the average person, a little bit discomfort for the reason you're saying about it's their safety in numbers almost. Yes. So I think you need to have that venture. The interesting thing we found, though, is that when we have worked on with companies that have done this project, everyone is very afraid in the beginning.

35:34They're even afraid to draw their existing strategy canvas. What do we compete on in the industry? Because they actually haven't really thought that through. They're so busy working on their silos or their functions. And then, you know, you draw that picture and you say, okay, so are we, if we did all these things, are we on a high growth trajectory likely to stand out? Buyers are going to be in love with us. Yeah. No, we'll survive, but not really. Okay, so if we want to, what should we do? We need to change things. And so you take them step by step, but by the end of the process, when they go through that, I think people discover they're far more creative,

36:16imaginative, and grounded than they ever knew. So I think the one thing we've always found at the end is a boss will say, I never knew my team was that good. A teammate will never say, I never knew my colleagues that good. And then the person will say, I never knew I was that good. And this is a very profound thing because I think that people often don't realize what they're actually capable of. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is motivated not by wanting to succeed, but by not, and not even not wanting to fail. It's not wanting to be criticized. It's not wanting to be looked at as strange or different or unusual or weird.

36:59we're really averse to those things and our aversion to those things keeps us in the same box or ocean as other people who are averse to those things. Well, you know, in like Beyond Disruption we talk about, so you find these problems, but this first thing is who cares besides you? But then the second thing is atomize that. Make it very small when you're testing it in the very beginning. Nobody cares. Well, you want to get proof of concept, right? And so you want to scope it down. So even when Muhammad Yunus decided that poverty is such a big issue, I want to try to create micro loans, he knew that impacted most of Bangladesh.

37:37He knew that if he went and started to talk to people, they'd say, you're off your rocker. So he said, okay, let me look at one town. How many people does this really impact? And could I actually actualize it? Let me run this. And then you're starting to see. So I think it also humanizes it and it allows your team to feel a lot less exposed because they're trying something, seeing how that works. And then that's giving me the confidence to explore it bigger and better. So I think, you know, it's not just like saying, okay, we're going to do it and let's just dive off. No, you have to be smart about that because you want to minimize.

38:11There's two risks you're talking about, your reputational risk and your financial risk. That's kind of the funny thing about imposter syndrome or the fear that holds people back is that you are often

38:27over indexing how much anyone is paying attention, right? Like, so you're afraid to be laughed at. You're afraid that people are going to think you're off your rocker, that you're doing something crazy. But really they're, they're not only not going to think that they're not thinking about you at all. Like you're not even on their radar. You'll be on their radar if you succeed. But otherwise, like if it just doesn't work, it will literally just exist in the void and nothing, there's, there's much less downside to this than you think there is. Yeah. I think also, you know, having the right perspective, this doesn't take away completely, but realizing, you know, if you succeed, you learn.

39:08And if you stumble actually, so you succeed you get kudos and if you stumble you actually learn yes and to you know keep having that philosophy but i think part of the power you know you mentioned blue ocean strategy is also there is you know tools and frameworks that help people along the way so it's not like you say look let's create a blue ocean let's just look at this industry and see is everyone in the red yeah and then you say okay now if we were able to solve some of these problems are there non-customers that might want to come to us if we did this? And you say, well, yes, there is. Like, what are the pain points?

39:43And then how big is that customer pool? That's another step. And so step by step, I'm gaining, because real confidence to pursue it isn't from a rah-rah call. It's actually because you're seeing grounded evidence and you're actually learning and testing. And that's really important. And once people, you know, it's like a kid. You put their finger, you tell them, don't touch that stove. Don't touch that stove. kid doesn't listen to you. He touched that stove it's burning hot. Not only will he listen he'll tell every friend that comes in the house do not touch that stove because he has learned they have learned and that is a really critical process about tools and a process that I think someone that does it intuitively underestimates how important that is but to help the average person it's very important.

40:26It's much more iterative than you think it is right? Like I think people think of the companies that have created these blue oceans that carved out something new, that they were, you know, forging wildly into the unknown, into the wilderness, and that they were doing it, like we're saying, with all eyes upon them, right? Like when someone has a book that works, very rarely did they have some, you know, earth-shattering new idea that they spent 10 years in a cave creating, and then it just came out and either succeeded or failed catastrophically. No, like it started with dinner conversations and then it started with articles and then they gave a talk about it and then they taught a class about it and they were testing it along the way.

41:16When I wrote my first book about stoicism, yeah, it wasn't a huge market. The publisher didn't give me a huge advance, but I'd been writing about it online a lot. I knew it worked in my own life. I knew it was something I was excited to talk about. I had all sorts of validation of the ideas on small scales, which made, it's still a risk, but it wasn't, it wasn't terra incognita. Like I knew, I had a good sense of where it was going. Like you said, you, it's not just a hunch. You have evidence. Yes, that's right. So that's like that atomization. You did it in small chunks here, there, you're testing, you're building that.

41:54So you can go forward with people or go forward with yourself with the confidence to know, okay, maybe you don't see that, but I have seen it. And actually, when you go before a venture capitalist, you can start to show those pieces of what you've seen in your evidence base. And now I'm talking about for, because companies often ask us, how do I go to, in the case of everyone talks disruption, VCs only want disruption, how do I make that case for non-disruption, right? And you show what is the evidence you built up in that. Yes. Your credibility on your proof of concept, actually. Yes. Yeah, you need evidence because you shouldn't, like, it's not good for you either to just plunge into the unknown and hope that it works.

42:33You want to test it on as many different scales as possible. Like when you see a comedian that goes on, you know, The Tonight Show and they do a 10-minute set, let's say, or a five-minute set, they're on a high wire there in the sense that they're in front of a live audience doing a really hard thing. and yet they have also tested every single one of these jokes over and over again in front of different types of audiences they have a sense of the rhythms of it we're so often it looks like they're winging it because that's part of what being a pro looks like is you're trying to make it look easy but they have tested every syllable of this thing well you know you're hitting on something else at another level, people, you know, would say to us, you know, Renee and Chan, tell me what makes Blue Ocean fail.

43:23You know, let me tell me, give me all the answers. And I'm sure we're going to get it for Beyond Disruption, but we found the real reason things don't work is because you actually don't do the work. Yes. And so, you know, what you're - You're rolling the dice. Yes. And so you're talking about the comedian, they have done the work, they have really practiced and people will often read like Blue Ocean Strategy Beyond Disruption and say, okay, we're going for the weekend. Well, we didn't see the answer. We've got to move on. No, actually anyone that I know of that has actually ever made it, if you know what they have put in and what their commitment has and their ability to take a punch, but yet they believe in that and get, keep staying in that ring, it is tremendous.

44:04So, you know, you see the final product, but it's a hard journey. And I think that is also really important to understand. You know, we admire greatness not because it's easy. It's because it is difficult. You know, and we talk about that in both of our books. And if you want the easy journey, then you can stay status quo with everyone else. You can stay there. But you know, what we have always asked ourselves is to ask ourselves, when we reflect back in our life, what journey did we want to have taken? But I want to take that while the journey is on, not in reflection. So you want a safe and easy life and just get by.

44:40That's okay. That works for you. Then pursue the red ocean or pursue looking at the status quo. Just do what everyone else is doing. That's right. And that may be fine. And that speaks to you. That's a really viable alternative. But then you have to speak to your deepest sense of who you are and say, what do I want in some small way or big way? I want to try to create, I want to make something bigger or something smaller. I want to try to do that. And if that is really who you are, you have to realize you have to step a little bit out of your comfort and you have to do that. And guess what? You have to do the work and there will be a lot of work to it.

45:16I mean, yeah. So let's talk about disruption because I think that that's also a kind of a stoic theme, which is, you know, the one constant in life is change. And you can either sit back and wait to be changed or you can be a force of change. You can be, your business can be disrupted or you can be a disruptor. How do you think about disruption? So, okay, so just as in bluishness strategy, we say there's competing, creating, and that's the reality of life. We're managing paradoxes. You need both. Yeah. But we know this so well, we're going to talk here. So disruption really matters. Sure. So we're not saying it doesn't.

45:54And there are a lot of industries that are ineffective, have a lot of negative externalities like the environment everyone talks about. So maybe those have to be disrupted and there's non-disruption and you can also pursue, you know, non-disruptive path. But now I go back to Steve Jobs for a second. I don't believe he ever said, I want to disrupt the smartphone industry. I don't think he ever tells his company, I want to disrupt ourselves. He just says, I want to build the absolutely greatest product and service that is going to make people go crazy. Or do you think he's also saying the way things are sucks?

46:29That is part of it too, because you look at what you're, in his mind, he's seeing a strategy canvas, and everyone is doing the same thing, and he sees all these pain points, and he's saying, I am going to step in. So our point is that today when you talk to VCs, they'll tell you almost every proposal they get forward is about displacing another industry. And then our question is, there's not only another industry to take down. Some may need it, but maybe don't. But why can't we also look at these non-disruptive opportunities that are out there that create growth jobs and help communities? We don't only have to.

47:06And if I am an executive, I want the full landscape to broaden my horizon of what my possibilities are. And if I'm a responsible CEO of a major corporation, I actually, at that level, I need to think beyond just I want to disrupt and make money. I actually need to start thinking about the consequences to communities, to society, and to what this is. I definitely want to have both options on the plate, as well as Blue Ocean is in the middle really there. Yes. Yeah, there's something kind of uninspiring about the approach of like, okay, somebody's making suitcases. Somebody's, you know, prescribing this kind of medication.

47:41Somebody is doing this. And you're just like, I'm going to get in there and just mess it up. Or I'm just going to get in there and take a piece of it. That kind of disruption strikes me as both boring and kind of socially destructive. That's different than, as you're saying with, say, Steve Jobs, I want to make the best possible version of this thing that ever existed, or I want to make a thing that has never existed but will be so much better that a handful of these other industries will get sucked into that space as a result. Or they won't get sucked in. So you think about the first dishwasher, you know, that a person had in their home, nothing got sucked in.

48:22But my God, it made our lives so much easier, right? Just put it in that little machine and like... I guess if you were a servant or something, it disrupted your life, right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But there weren't many people that had servants, of course, right? Yeah. So I guess, you know, so that's the question. It doesn't have to only suck in other industries. And that's what's really important to understand. Also, the concept of disruption means in business... I just mean like the smartphone took cell phones, it took GPS devices. Yes, it was pure disruptive. A bunch of things that now can be done by one thing because it's such a magical leap forward.

48:56That's right. So that would definitely be on the disruptive path. But I guess what I'm saying is, so there's two levels of disruption. There's one is the world changes, and that's disruptive. So in that sense, there's that level. But in business disruption and innovation terms, it really means that one industry comes in and displaces another industry. And so that has a very specific meaning. So when you're saying in the Stoics, you know, they talk about disruption, they're not necessarily, I don't believe, but you know better than I do on that. So I can't answer that. Saying that this industry is displacing this industry as a more than in our lives, we're going to see fundamental change.

49:34Of course. And so are you going to ride that change or maybe even drive that change? or you're going to be left behind. But that is very different meaning of disruption. That's a general sense of the word as opposed to what it means in the innovation space in particular. It is interesting. We have kind of a strange historical take on disruption in that radio still exists, classical music still exists. We see these new disruptive or innovative forces, and they definitely affect the existing thing. but people who do that existing thing really well still exist. I mean, on the other side of this wall is a vinyl record store.

50:12Obviously vinyl records have been disrupted by tapes and CDs and MP3s and now streaming. And yet that still exists. And so that's objectively true. And yet you could pick up the headline of any media publication in the world right now. And they're going to be talking about how AI is going to destroy X, Y, and Z as if that's really ever happened in history. Well, it has in certain industries to a great extent. I think that what they mean by disruption is so the pure 100 % replacement of one for the other, that's the exception, not the norm. But the question is, does it kind of hollow out that market significantly?

50:52That's where the disruption is. So disruption is about, you know, eventually I tackle the core of a market, I might not 100 % displace, so it goes into oblivion, but I've either usurped a lot of that market and the growth for the future. So you're still there, but you're existing at the margin now when you used to be at the core and the growth that's coming in is really coming more to that new industry as opposed to the one you displaced. So yes.

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53:28When Tyler Cowen talks about it, he's like, basically, it makes it, this change or disruption makes it really hard to be average at something, right? Oh, then you're ripe for disruption. Yes. So it kind of actually comes back to blue and red ocean. It's like if you're someone who does something in a unique way, who owns a market, who does it at the highest level, you're probably going to be fine or you're going to be able to adapt and improvise. But if you're someone who is just like, oh, yeah, you can make a great middle class income being a regional newspaper reporter, you know, that kind of person is going to be disrupted when the internet comes along and globalizes the competition for a handful of spots.

54:07Correct. So if you are pursuing a blue ocean, that's the best defense against ever being disrupted. So, you know, what you're looking for is I always say companies that are, or industries that are asleep at the wheel. You know, people really not improving, haven't really changed. We go in, we're, you know, frustrated by the experience. Those are very right for it. So yes, blue is like a shield against it. And that keeps people from, so you know, because disruption isn't that easy because you're taking on an existing industry. If you've got top players, they're not going to just sit there and say, take the bologna off my sandwich.

54:40You know, they're going to punch back at you. And so you can't just assume that that works that easily. But I guess, you know, the point about Beyond Disruption is, so, you know, we distinguish. Disruption is when you offer a breakthrough solution within an existing industry. That's why it is blaze. Blue Ocean is really across industry spaces. Yeah. And beyond disruption is non-disruptive creation is outside of existing industries. And what we're saying in that book is like, wait a minute, we're looking a lot now increasingly at the other two, but we're not looking at these non-disruptive opportunities.

55:11But like e-sports is really non-disruptive. Yeah. If pet Halloween costumes, my daughter loves it. She says, mom, can you be a taco or a policeman for a little? It's so cute. Of course. You know, but it's non-disruptive. Yeah, yeah. You know, whole non-disruptive industries. It's additive. Yes. So what I would say, I wouldn't say additive, I'd say it's positive sum. No one has made worse off and I'm creating a new market space. So disruptive is really zero sum. Long term it actually adds beyond zero sum. Short term is zero sum. So it produces really disruptive growth. Glotion produces a blend of disruptive.

55:43I take it at the margin. Circus delay took some from circus, some from theater, but it creates a lot of new demand. So it's disruptive and non-disruptive. And beyond disruptive is really I'm mainly creating, if not all, is non-disruptive growth. I'm outside and it's positive some, meaning nobody is being made worse off as an industry category when you're doing that. And so the question is, and you look at young MBAs today or young people, but even this concerns for stakeholder capitalism, what everyone is saying increasingly, the young people, they want to work for companies that are not necessarily destroying everyone else.

56:20They want to have a mission that actually we're helping to solve this brand new problem. We're helping to do these things that, you know, solve this problem or create this. They don't want to be zero sum. They don't want to be zero sum. They want to be positive sum. But also stakeholder capitalism drive, that's coming more from the top, even from governments, major players. And this whole, you know, nonprofit drive here is saying, you know, we need to think beyond just shareholders put to broader society and not simply displacing because, you know, it's one thing to, you know, we love disruption and we love non-disruptive because you have to offer this leap in value.

56:58So consumer wins and the creator wins in both cases. But with disruption, actually, the losers are all the disrupted companies, the industries, and importantly, the employees. We don't think about that. You be one of those disrupted employees, you be one of those taxi drivers in New York City when you see your revenue drop by 40%. Classified ad salesman. Yes, but your revenue is dropping by 40%. Your medallion that you put everything for used to go for over a million. Now it's$175 ,000. You can't make that. And so it's sort of saying we're not advocating against disruption, but you need to also think a little bit broader too.

57:33Well, it's a cultural issue, right? So Uber is a great example of a disruptive company, you said, but also kind of creating a new market. There was no such thing as widespread, like decentralized ride sharing before. It's a great creation. But Travis Kalanick's sort of approach, his almost identification as a disruptor, I'm going to kill the taxi cab companies. I'm going to run through these walls. No one's going to stop me. I'm going to get through the unions and the regulations and all of that. It was very conducive to the disruption part, but it also created a toxic culture inside. It's hard to turn that off.

58:14And ultimately, yeah, people don't want to work at a company where, you know, like a lot of those metaphors that we use, like the war room or, you know, we're going to go to the mattresses. Business has a lot of that in it. Yes. And ultimately, particularly as I think the workforce becomes more diverse and the gender balances, people are like, that sounds like a terrible place to work. That sounds like a gross place to work. And I think, yeah, disruption is an important key or a part of your toolkit. But if it's your identity, that's hard to sustain and build something that people are proud to be a part of over a long period of time.

58:58Yeah, I mean, and it depends on how much the CEO really drives that culture within a company. But, you know, in our book, we also talk about, you know, the four advantages. So one is, you know, as an entrant, you don't take on the big players. But also, you know, your point is that when you disrupt an industry, believe me, you get a lot of from external stakeholders, they give you a lot of pushback. So whether it's Uber, it's Airbnb, all of them smile direct for fixing your teeth. The amount of pushback they get because they're displacing people is, and they end up actually, the cost for that mount with your legal defenses, the aggravation mounts, and just the pure absorption of management, top management time is huge as well.

59:45So, you know, that's just like two of the four benefits. Also, it's emotionally and politically often easier to non-disrupt. if I'm an established company. So I was with Merck and they had their 350th year anniversary two years ago or three years ago. It was unbelievable. But I was talking with the scientists and everyone. The mission to disrupt, they realize if I'm disrupting an industry, that means my great strong peers are all in it. They're not people to take lightly. It's like one gang taking on another really tough gang, right? It's bad for both gangs. Both gangs. So like, and then you want me to disrupt my own revenue, whether or not you're asking me to give up today and my livelihood and everything for something we're not even certain of.

1:00:30I'm actually not that interested either. So emotionally and politically, it's a little bit more internally, internally acceptable to pursue non-disruptive. And, you know, we're just trying to put it out there that there are these opportunities. We've talked so much disruption and, you know, blue ocean strategy sort of what gave rise to that. And then we're saying, let's look here as well. Yeah. Well, the art of strategy, I think, is that strength should not go against strength, right? I have a stat in The Obstacles Away from B.H. Liddell Hart, who's one of the great military strategists of the 20th century.

1:01:08And he was saying, he looked at like most of the big conflicts in the history of warfare. And he was saying that, let's say it's 250 different major decisive battles or campaigns. He was like, six of the 250 were the whole of one's army going against the whole of the opponent's army, and then the stronger one winning, like a head-to-head battle. It was almost invariably a feint or a distraction or a blitzkrieg, some kind of approach that pits one's strength against someone else's weakness or goes where there are no defenses or where they're not expecting you to go. And so, yeah, part of being a disruptive person can - I'm going right at them.

1:01:59Yes. I'm going to hit them hard and I'm going to win. Yes. And it's very, you know, I'm going right at you. So you think about that, like, I'm going to find this industry, I'm going to go just straight at them, you know? And it's interesting. You better have a lot of money and a lot of resources. Yes, and a significant advantage to dislocate them. I mean, you have a magnitude of order difference to dislocate, right? But here's the interesting thing. You said a very critical word about warfare. Yeah. Because if you really look at all, and this is very important, if you look at all of strategy and a lot of business and innovation, fundamentally it really comes from warfare.

1:02:34That's really, so that's why we say, you know, corporate head office, chief executive officer, we have still this terminology, right? But the key defining quality of warfare is limited land. For me to grow, I must take your land. Yes. But in the world of ideas, imagination, and business, there is no constraining factor. So war must be zero sum. Right. But we have taken the key constraint of war. And while we took all different organizing principles from war and we learn from it. The key defining weakness of war, this limited land, we also import it and we keep assuming it in our mental space that we need to define this land.

1:03:13And, you know, we talked about from the beginning of Blue Ocean even that the business space is not limited, but it is unlimited. Actually, it's only limited by the imagination that we have. And so the question is, why would I accept that key defining characteristic that's limiting in war and imply it to the very space, I don't have that limitation and act like I do. And so, you know, Blue Ocean was trying to go beyond that and then beyond disruption takes it even a level. And if you look at like Elon Musk, he has Tesla. What is that? Disruptive. But then his whole idea of space, tourism and Mars, completely non-disruptive, right?

1:03:51He pursues both different levels. And I would argue probably his bigger passion maybe is here though he has a passion for both. And what could that do? Yeah. Stephen Pressfield once wrote this thing that I think about a lot. He said, villains are zero sum. They say, you have this, I want it. And he said, heroes are non-zero sum. Heroes are creators. They make new things. They pioneer new spaces. They unearth new things. They generate discoveries or inventions. And it's sort of deciding which of those do you want to do. And also realizing that I think this applies at the individual level too. It's like, yeah, are you going to go, okay, 500 people get into this university a year.

1:04:34I'm going to be one of those 500 people. Or are you going to say I'm 18 years old and my entire life is before me. I could go in an infinite number of directions. What is the one where I have to go head to head with as few people as possible? That's probably the most exciting, interesting, creative, and rewarding of the directions to go in. That's right. And it's just like, you know, it's interesting. Sometimes, you know, I'll be walking and I'm like, I'm looking at this street. Yeah. But then like I look up and I'm like, there's so much space up there. There's so much space everywhere. Yes, yes, yes.

1:05:07Why are we only looking at some dimensions? Yes. And then, you know, you have to step back and ask yourself always like, why, why am I, we don't realize how much we keep limiting our visual. And when you look around, it's actually immense. And so is our imagination ideas. But, you know, one thing about going head to head or creating, and it goes back to what you said earlier, you know, people are afraid because it feels more comfortable. And I think what we try to do in both books is some people are more intuitively and maybe you're one of those people. You're willing to take that step and you want to make that difference and carve out your blue ocean.

1:05:42But not everyone is. But it's not that everyone doesn't want it. Yeah. But it's just that they feel like that's not me. I can't. They've actually disqualified themselves from trying before they've even tried. They've written themselves off. And what both books try to do is say, well, wait a minute, let's decodify this. And so, you know, maybe we can't stop how Einstein comes up with E equals MC squared. We haven't tried it yet, but we haven't. But actually on these ideas, can we not sit back and like, let's try to codify what they did? Are there patterns? And I think a lot of people, I know people that read everything, they can quote every fact and I keep thinking, I want you on my trivia pursuit team.

1:06:20But if I ask, like, what did you really learn? Like, you read this book. You can tell me every character, every scene, everything. I can't remember any of it, but I remember one lesson. What's your lesson? And how have you applied that lesson? That's right. And so what we try to do in both books is say, okay, we realize people are starting from a certain base. And then can we provide, like, if I wanted to not disrupt only, but I wanted to go into these creative new spaces that Steve Pressfield was saying, how can I identify where those spaces are? How can I assess it? How can I find, and then importantly, how can I realize it in a low cost way?

1:06:59And that's very important because that's again, managing all your risk factors. But to your point too, you said earlier, can they afford to buy something? But wait a minute. The question is, I need to start with what price I can afford and I need to work backwards but we often take just as many assumptions about how to build and create something that have high costs involved. Yeah. Because you can apply blue ocean as well to how you execute on something as much as how you create something. Yeah. And so you can find a way. So that's what both books really try to do is, you know, even beyond disruption, people say, how do you do that?

1:07:37Well, we say, wait a minute, we see real patterns here. Yeah. Let's decode it. And then you can start to have a conversation on those ideas and start to think. I remember when I was starting the bookstore, I looked up, I took this course on how you open a bookstore. And they were like, the average bookstore costs, I don't know,$500 ,000 to open. And I said, that's way too much. I'm not going to spend$500 ,000. And I said, so maybe we can't do this. And then I was like, well, let me get my bearings here first. And so what I did was I already had an e-commerce business. I was like, well, what does this same source tell me about starting an e-commerce business?

1:08:17I started an e-commerce business for zero dollars, right? That's what's cool about e-commerce businesses is that you can bootstrap them, right? And so I was like, well, how much does it say that starting an e-commerce business is? And it was like$200 ,000 or something. And I was like, oh, okay, these people just don't know what they're talking about. Or they think there's only one way to do it and there's actually lots of ways to do it. Correct. And they act on traditional assumptions that they're making. Yeah. And so I think one of the things that scares people or keeps them locked into doing it a certain way or only doing certain things is they take for granted assumptions that they haven't actually tested.

1:08:51And Elon Musk has his problems, but he has popularized this idea of first principles thinking. Of course. Which is like, let's not take the conventional wisdom on how this is done, but let's actually ask ourselves the fundamental questions about how much should this cost? What's the best way to do it? And oftentimes you find that there's a lot of barriers built in to the old way of doing it that you don't have to accept. You can do it this other way and it's zero dollars or it's one-tenth of as much money. There might be risks, might be harder, but it's more possible than you think it is. It's more possible.

1:09:32And so the second to what we have is the assumption implication table. Yeah. So you outline what are all the assumptions that this industry is making? What's the implication of that? So like one of the non-disruptive examples we give is from INSEAD to our MBAs. You know, they would get into INSEAD from another, because we have so many countries, very international. And they thought getting into INSEAD was the hard part. But then they found out that was the easy part. The hard part was getting the funding for cross-border education that's high. And so they started realizing, because they would say to these people, okay, you want to, so domestically we don't want to lend to internationally.

1:10:11Because you're a flight risk now. You're using this board. Who knows if you'll ever come back. But if I go to France, like where our campus was, they say, okay, so what's your local credit history? Well, I don't have that. Okay, so what's your local assets? Actually, I don't have that. So who's your local consignor? Actually, I don't have that either. Sure. And you're 27? No, thank you. So actually, INSEAD had a really big deferment problem where actually people gave up their dreams. Yeah. And so this young guy, Cameron Stevens, he saw that problem when he got to campus. He saw all my colleagues had that problem.

1:10:43We knew kids and people that didn't. And he started saying, God, what's the whole assumption is that your credit history is based on your past, not your future? And he's like, well, wait a minute. Every one of us that got in here, right, what do we know about what they're going to earn the day they graduate? They're going to be one of the top performers. Sure. And what do we know to get in here that they are the most reliable, they put everything to get in here. Would they actually jeopardize that if they got out of here? Right. Risk everything by destroying that? And what does it say? didn't they have all these leadership roles to even get in here?

1:11:16They were the head of this sorority, this fraternity, whatever it was. And so he said, actually, they're the least flight risk. They're the safest form of credit of anyone. He flipped it on his head. And so then he said, this is what I'm going to do. So he saw all those assumptions and he said, well, wait a second. That is what I can do to flip that and create that money. Then he went to Harvard and all the top schools and in Seattle and he said, you all want international students, don't you? but they can't get funding, can they? So you actually just get the very wealthy that can come here. Actually, if you'd help share with me your data, I can have your data of what your average student earns, what is their background, what kind of job they get, what kind of skills, what kind of vocations they go into.

1:11:59I can build this data set and I'm going to help you get more students in. And he was able, there you go. That should have been a cost structure. The school said, yes, please, INSEAD, we want help. And so they were able to get that access. Today, it's helped, I don't know, it raised a billion the last time we looked, but I mean, for debt funding, yes. And that's such a good example also of, sure, it's somewhat disruptive or it's different, but what it's creating is a world where more people can now do a thing. Well, it is, but the banking industry didn't want that industry. I mean, even banking comes for the word banca.

1:12:37And that's from Italy because when the industry was formed, it would be someone sitting on a bench and he would loan to people. So the bank became that because I knew them, I could trust them. So even though the world has globalized, banks are still very, very local. And so yes, it created tremendous change, but actually it didn't take away the revenue from the banks. In fact, when he had the idea, he went to the banks, this was unfortunately at the 2008 crisis. And he thought he was offering them a non-disruptive opportunity to say, I figured out how you can, I'm going to be the intermediary, fund all these people and expand your base and your whole new revenue stream, giving you a business model.

1:13:15They were so hit by the 2008 crisis and their old thinking, they said, no, thank you. So his plan actually got put on hold, but he believed in the value so much because he saw how many people it could help, who cares besides me. He didn't start with every school. He started just with one school, atomization, in SEAD. And then what he did is he pivoted and he started thinking who, and then he goes, well, who would know better than, but our alumni, the value of what these kids are going to make, these students. And so then he pivoted and he got in SEAD alumni and he said, could you do it? And that is how they got the funding.

1:13:48And then we document and it's fascinating. And here you think of the banking industry is, you know, really top performing schools, usually intensely competitive. My goodness, what opportunity non-disruptive could be in that industry? Yeah. But if you look at our book, when we talk about it, whether it's microfinance, multi-billion dollar industry, Cameron Stevens, Conniquel or Nickel in France for the people that don't have regular employment, these are all industries that are being ignored. Yeah. And so they change things, yes, and that's undisruptive, but actually in the innovation context, they're non-disruptive because they're not displacing and not stealing any of the revenue from anyone else.

1:14:29And so that's a real challenge. And when you're not stealing from anyone else, like why did GoPro never get taken on by the camera industry? Right. Right. I mean, they got taken on even by Apple's phone now, but the only one that hasn't gotten killed are the active sport wear, right? For the cameras. And they sidestepped it. They didn't do anything. How come all the credit card players and the payment system, how come they didn't go after the square reader. Yeah. Because he cared about like, you know, the individual and the micro business and that was not my business. So when you do non-disruptive too, no one gets excited because you're not touching.

1:15:03Yeah. You're not touching my things. And that's such a, that's such a wonderful way, like Clayton Christensen has that thing about how you measure your life. Yeah. You're not ultimately going to measure your life based on how much money you made or how much money you took out of a thing. I think a really wonderful way to measure your life is how many people you empowered or how many people you brought to a thing. So with GoPro, it's like, I'm terrible with cameras, but I can figure out a GoPro and I can use it to do stuff that I do, right? Or yeah, this many people were able to go to college because of the thing that I came up with.

1:15:38Or I brought this many people to ancient philosophy that never would have been interested in it otherwise. Like I always, my favorite thing to hear from people is like, I didn't read a book. I haven't read a book since high school until I read your thing, right? That's what you, like when you bring new people to something or you open something up, you make something more inclusive where you build something that serves people that were not served before, that's the best. But you know, you're hitting on one thing there too, about how do you know whether there is a leap in value? And I think it's like these kinds of comments that people say to you when When they just say like, I would have never, and I did these types of things.

1:16:21Who cares but me when someone goes, I care. Yes. That's so great. Yeah. And you can really feel that. And I think that, you know, the third thing we talk about in Beyond Disruption is leaning into your, like leaning into, well, actually like leaning into the problem you see. So we talk about, you know, it's very easy. We give a problem. One is not impossible labs in California. and this guy Mick Ebeling who is the founder of it he sees this young guy he's reading Time Magazine at night and he hears about this young guy Daniel in South Sudan in Sudan war is going off whenever they're dropping bombs they go around a tree to hide when they hear it he goes around or they really go in foxholes but this young boy is tending goats he bomb is coming he hears them there's no foxhole yeah so he goes behind a tree and he grabs it because the the impact on the earth is so great.

1:17:13The bomb finishes and the Daniel standing there as a young boy and his body is safe, but his arms have been blown off because they weren't protected by the tree. And he reads that and he's reading the story and he hears that in the story, Daniel says, when I think about what a burden I'll be to my family now, life is so tough already. I wish I didn't exist. And this guy, Mick is sitting there thinking, I got three boys down the hall sleeping. I, my heart would break if they ever said they didn't want to live because of me. Now he leans into it though. And he said, wow, like if I didn't lead with my agency and I lead with my structure, I'd be thinking, oh, well, that's so unfortunate.

1:17:55You know, flip the page, life is sucks, you know, whatever. But instead he started thinking, you know, can I make a difference? And can I lean into that problem, create a real opportunity for people that's low cost, you know, that are in these war-torn zones that are leaning. And so, yeah, I think that the issue is when you see a problem or an opportunity, you don't just, so many people see a problem, you know, they see a pothole on the street and they just walk right over it. Somebody else's problem. Somebody else's problem. I don't have what it takes. Yeah. But make it your problem. Like lean into it and think what could that be?

1:18:32And I think not enough people, in two ways, one is you experience a problem yourself. And we think it's someone else or not mine, but say, no, no. Like Cameron Stevens, he experienced a problem himself. He had to defer for one year before he came. The other one is emphatically observing. We talk about lean into what you hear or read and say, well, wait a minute. Right. That's an opportunity calling for me. Right. Right. Yeah. And the third way is actually actively scouting, asking people to bring me those problems that no one solves. Like, what are the issues? Tell me. Right. Right. And so, you know, there's all these things like we try to articulate to help people understand because we're not trained to think that way, really.

1:19:14It's too much easier to just fit in, as you said. And so it's like, well, let me help you see how you can see a little wider. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. I think that's the perfect place to stop. All right. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. It was great.

1:19:32thanks so much for listening if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show we appreciate it and i'll see you next episode

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