Resiliency Will Reward You | Nobel Prize Winner Dr. Katalin Karikó

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1:22Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

2:07Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. We were just sitting down for dinner as a family a couple nights ago, and we're all sitting around eating. and it just occurred to me, I said, it's kind of insane to think about this, but it was like on this day, five years ago. To my oldest, I said, you know, we took you out of school. And to my youngest, you were a baby. I mean, we still have the thing on the wall. It says, you know, his name and it says eight months. It's kind of flash frozen there in place. This was the day that basically the pandemic sort of got real, at least for Americans.

2:49seconds, things got serious and we sort of huddled up or locked down on our ranch. So a wonderful place to be in that moment, at least. We were very fortunate in that regard, but it just was crazy to me that it had been five years. I mean, I have a five and a half year old, basically, or five years and eight months. And just how long ago that seems and then how it seems like it just happened. I've said this in a bunch of my talks. I don't think if you had said to any of us on March of 2020, here's what the future holds. You think you're going to be able to handle that? We would have been like, oh yeah, that's a piece of cake.

3:31We didn't know. We don't know what the future holds. But I think if it was all laid out for us, we'd be overwhelmed. And that's what really stoicism is, this ability to handle more than you can handle, as we were talking about in a recent email. But it's been a lot. The last five years have been a lot. That first year was a lot that first year before we knew what we know now, before the inventions of the vaccines, before the heroic actions of so many doctors and public health officials. Back in 2023, I read this New York Times profile of this overlooked scientist, and I was fascinated by her story.

4:09This woman, Dr. Catalan Carrico, she grew up in communist Hungary. She left the country with$900 that she stuffed in her daughter's teddy bear. And look, I'm sure America was better than communist Hungary, but it was no easy ride. I have a section about her in some of my talks. I thought I could find it. I'm a little late recording this intro, so I'll just do it for you now. Basically, she toils away in the bowels of academia for the next 40 years. She never makes more than 60 grand a year. Her husband manages an apartment complex to help them make ends meet. She's constantly having to reapply for her grants.

4:48She's never given seniority or much respect. People think her research is a dead end until right around that same period, right around the same period. We were all locking down. We were all hoping, hey, I hope someone can figure this out. I hope someone knows something we can do. Well, it turns out that Dr. Catalin Carrico had been researching in this exact area, and her slow and steady breakthroughs in what would become mRNA vaccines was sort of ripe exactly for this moment. And she would go on to win a Nobel Prize. I mean, she should have won it in 21 and 22. She did not. Which sort of continued the trend of being snubbed and ignored and rejected and undermined.

5:34But she did win a Nobel Prize. And so I find her story fascinating and extra fascinating to learn, as I did. The more you look into her life, the more incredible it is, sort of everything that does make America great. Her daughter is an Olympic gold medalist. Oh, man. I just love this interview. My grandmother had a very similar accent, and so it was sweet talking to her. It sort of took me back. I'm a huge fan of her work, and I was just fascinated with this article, right? Because research breakthroughs, sometimes we get lucky, sometimes we're recognized, sometimes it's a long, hard slog. And the world is made better by the unreasonable people who reject the rejection, who stay at it, who persevere, who push through, who have that sort of unbreakable spirit.

6:25And as it turns out, part of what had been motivating Dr. Karika was her understanding of Stoic philosophy. I didn't think as I sat down to do this interview that we'd get to talk a bunch of Stoic philosophy, but we did. And so it was so great. Her knowledge of Stoicism is what helped her grind through the arduous scientific process. And that's the thing. She really did enjoy the process. There's a quote in that article where basically her husband's like, look, I don't want you to feel sorry for my wife. She loves coming to work every day. And I think that encapsulates who Dr. Curico is, why I wanted to have her on the podcast.

7:03She has a memoir called Breaking Through My Life in Science. Just an utterly inspiring, fascinating person who has, through the result of that perseverance and that work saved the lives of millions of people and also just spared many of us from needless suffering or additional sickness. If you got the COVID vaccine, look, we thought maybe at the beginning it would magically prevent us all from getting it. In some cases, it does because it reduces the chance of infection, but doesn't prevent it. But it does reduce your chances of getting along COVID. It does help you bounce back faster. That's why millions of people all over the world did it.

7:42The estimations on how many lives this vaccine has saved are in the tens and tens of millions. And what an incredible human accomplishment. I have a quote that I've always loved from Aaron Thayer, one of my favorite novelists. And he said, look, you know, human beings are so smart, they can put a man on the moon. And then human beings are so stupid that they can doubt that we put a man on the moon. And that about describes the conflict of human society right there. And I think that describes Dr. Catalan Carrico's work too, and why some of you might not like this interview or be upset by it. It's unfortunate that you're in the latter half of that equation, but it doesn't matter because we have people like Dr.

8:27Catalan Carrico who did great work. And then we had also countless leaders and doctors and volunteers. I was one. I spent many, many hours in the vaccine clinics and pop-ups that we did here in the little county that I live in. It was one of the more moving experiences of my life to push these old people who were first in line in their wheelchairs up to the doctor, help them fill out the form so the nurse would put the shot in their arm, the relief, and the sense that, you know, look, if that hadn't happened, some of them might not be alive. It's crazy to think, again, this is all four years ago.

9:04But I really liked this interview. I think you're going to like it too. You can follow Dr. Carrico at Catalin underscore Carrico on Instagram and do check out her memoir, Breaking Through My Life in Science. Enjoy this interview.

9:21So did you know science was always going to be it for you? Were you drawn to it from an early age? Yes, yes, yes. My father thought that I could be a butcher also because he knew somebody, a woman, to be a butcher. And I assisted him many times and I was good at making sausage and other things. But for you, it was always going to be science. Yes. What drew you to it? Do you remember the thing that made you think, oh, this is a job people can do? It was the curiosity. You know, I think every child is curious. And, you know, we lived in a rural area and, you know, our neighbor had a cow and then we had chickens and I have seen them coming out from the eggs and everything was kind of magic.

10:06And we had storks, a lot of storks in this small town. And, you know, they are going and coming back and this wonder about, you know, we didn't think about at that time GPS, but, you know, how they can find a place. everything was so about nature was so magic and you try to understand you know how how this all happening did your parents encourage that curiosity like i i mean lots of kids are curious about where stuff comes from it doesn't make them all scientific researchers yes so so my father you know i mean i could see when he processed the pig i could see the blood clotting i remember he gave me the heart and he cut in half and showing things there just, you know, because I was curious, you know, my, I have a three years older sister.

10:58And when we processed the pig, she was always inside. She didn't want to see anything. I was curious what is inside, what makes that animal running and no, it's not running kind of, you know, not that I like the animal. So it was not that, you know, I enjoy it. It was just curious. Yeah. There's a scientist I was reading about that that he said when he would come home from school every day, his mother never asked, how did you do on the test? What are your grades? You know, did you get in any trouble? She always asked, did you ask any good questions? And there's something about encouraging curiosity in kids that can really start something special.

11:40So we were asked about with my sister always, that your homework is ready. Because if we said yes, then we can help in the garden with the animals and do chores. And that was it. It was for my parents. It was important to do the homework. Yes. Right. But I think so often we can sort of pressure our kids into academic performance or to check the boxes as opposed to the underlying curiosity and exploration that I think serves you better in life. Yeah, I can imagine. But my father had six elementary education. My mother had eight elementary. So they were not those kind of parents who highly educated and they were pushing their children that they have to achieve something unbelievable thing.

12:29And so that was easy for us. Did they encourage you in your science once? I imagine sometimes if you have a parent with a very blue collar profession and a very intellectual or cerebral kid can be intimidating or disorienting or just hard to understand. Did your parents support your love of science? How did that go? Yes. Yes. Our parents for both of us, you know, you know, they were very loving and then they emphasize that, that we didn't have an opportunity to study. And then they, you have the opportunity. I didn't have the shoes to go to school during the winter and you have it. And so you felt that, you know, opportunity is there and they didn't have it.

13:14Yeah, I think I think sometimes like I'm writing about Lincoln in the book that I'm doing now. And he was sort of threatened by his son's love of books, I think, deep down because he realized if his son read and learned and fell in love with education, he would leave, that he would lose his farmhand. You know, like just at this very practical level, it was threatening in that it would send him into another world, literally and figuratively. Yeah. So, you know, first of all, we didn't have any books. We went sometimes to the library, but I more like was that, that, you know, in the school, because this was the communist system.

13:53And, you know, we had to interview some old guys, the big communists. And, you know, I went home and I told my father that this wonderful person and my father said that, oh, no, he's a bullshit. And, you know, then I had to write a big story about that this person is still good. But, you know, it was in my mind that not really, you know, that kind of things what I learned from my father. And, you know, in school, we learned that if somebody has a lot of money and those people are bad, you know, rich people. And my father said, not so. And he told me, although they never had money and, you know, they were poor, but he knew that people were very kind.

14:35He was in a small way sort of pushing back on some of the doctrine or the assumptions of a communist country for you. So, yes, he was, you know, took his mind. And, you know, for me, I knew that this is what's happening in school. And, you know, they try to tell us these things. And, but, you know, there is things are different. And when did you start to get a sense, not just that you were interested in this, but that you were really good at it, that you could go somewhere with it? In elementary school already, when I was 13 years old, I was already competing nationally in biology competition, you know, where they ask things.

15:18And I went to the summer camp in the capital, and then all of these girls and boys were there. Everybody wanted to be a scientist. You don't believe. We were 13 years old, and those who I was in the same tent in this camp, they became physicians and chemists, biologists. So at the age of 13, they knew they wanted to do it. I always thought about it. And when I was 14, I was the best in the whole country in biology, and it was a whole week competition. And I had to take a train 150 kilometers away from a small town where I grew up. And my father put me on the train and said, you know, go to Budapest.

16:05And, you know, because they said somebody will wait for me. You know, it was a different time. And, you know, after one week when I arrived back, you know, they learned that, okay, I made the trip and I am back now. There's kind of an interesting parallel there, right? Because your daughter is an Olympian. Right. And so there must it's a similar process where you start you start to pull ahead of your peers. And then there's kind of a process that takes over if you decide to make a go of something. Yes. So, you know, she was watching me that I'm working towards my goal. But, you know, it was not my success, a lot of sweating there.

16:45But, you know, I mean, it was also unbelievable because she or she started to rowing. You know, she was always doing sports, so she was very fit. Yeah. And she was, you know, 6 '2". She was very tall. She's very tall. And almost when she started rowing, what was three years later, she almost made the Olympics in Athens. But then, you know, four years later, she made it and get the gold medal in the first Olympics and get another gold medal in the second Olympics. And it was just like, OK. What an incredible full circle that your father's a butcher with a sixth grade education and you become a Nobel Prize winning scientist.

17:27And then your daughter goes the exact opposite direction and is an Olympic athlete. What an arc for a family. It's incredible. Yes. When the people said that we didn't know about, you know, nobody knew about me. I said, oh, the rowers knew that I was Susan's mom. You know, all of the rowers. And then later when we went to the different, I get a lot of awards and Susan came with me, you know, they introduced her that cut his daughter. Right. That's, that's so funny. So when, when did you know that you would have to leave? How did you come to the end of the road in Hungary? So it was clear then it was actually, I was 30 years old.

18:10It was on my birthday when they told me that by July 1st, I have no longer position. So we were arranged that we will celebrate with another couple, with my husband. And, you know, we already had our daughter born in Hungary and it was not much celebration for me on that day. And, you know, I tried to stay in Hungary, apply for jobs. I couldn't, I couldn't get in Europe because I was not allowed to apply for funding because we were behind the Iron Curtain. So a lot of embargo and other things. So finally, I applied for a job in the U.S. and I get the response that, you know, in July I can start.

18:53And you weren't exactly fleeing danger, but you were fleeing sort of a lack of opportunity. Yes. And I wanted to make sure that we stay Hungarian citizens. My daughter could go back to my mom and, you know, spend the summer there. That's what we did. I did not want defect or, you know, it would be like, you leave the country, then you cannot return. That time, it was like in 85 when we left. But there is a story you couldn't leave with much, right? In that way, it is the sort of classic immigrant story of they left with the things they could carry. Yeah, I was, you know, just thinking about that.

19:33I know one week later, like I was in hunger One week later, I have to buy things for dollars in the U.S. And, you know, we have the hundred dollar total for three of us and how we will survive for one month with hundred dollars. And so that's why we sold our cars and, you know, exchange the money and hide it. You had to hide it in your daughter's teddy bear, right? Yes, I had to do it. She was a smuggler. Yes, she was an early smuggler. That's funny. I think people, maybe it's from movies, maybe it's from books. You know, we think scientific discovery is, well, first off, we think there's a lot of epiphanies, that these ideas come from the epiphany.

20:16Or we think that the research is exciting or glamorous. I was so fascinated by your story because, quite honest, it seemed like it was a grind. It didn't seem fun. And it seemed like it took a long, long time. Yes, indeed. It seemed from outside that I was struggling, sweating. I have to say, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the word. And I had, you know, people thought that I'm not successful because I didn't get grants and, you know, was not promoted. I rather demoted. but I solved so many problems and in the laboratory, oh, I solved this problem, that problem, now it is more protein from the artery, so I enjoyed and it was fun and just from outside seems like, you know, it's boring to be a scientist and then it is, you know, success is, you know, looking successful is what many people put emphasis on and not too happy, I am happy to do things, I think.

21:25We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at The Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that, but I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence. My wife introduced me to Dr.

22:02Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for Good Inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It over the holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr. Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being.

22:43And Daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events. Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns.

23:26There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour.

24:03And of course, this is stoicism too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

24:30I think that's the thing about a calling is you have to love the process more than the outcomes. My friend Austin Cliani talks about too many people like the noun and not the verb. You have to like doing science, not being a famous scientist, right? Or if you're motivated by the moments of discovery and recognition, that's probably going to be few and far between. But if you like the day-to-dayness of being in the laboratory, you can have a lot of fun. Exactly. People are saying, now that you get the Nobel Prize, so, you know, you reaching your goals is what you are doing now. I said, it was never my goal, you know.

25:10My goals were always something that I can achieve, I can work towards, you know. Those are all of these awards if somebody is making a decision, you should get this or not get or that. Yeah. You cannot, you know, it shouldn't motivate you. Yes. More like, you know, what I am doing is maybe helping somebody eventually, and that could be a motivation. And also, you know, craving this recognition, that also can spoil all of these things. I never wanted to be recognized. I was so happy without, it was enough for me knowing that, okay, I am doing something, and maybe other scientists, you know, follow up, and then one day they will have somebody.

25:55Well, I think about that as a writer, like writing a great book, that's in my control. Whether it hits the bestseller list is not in my control. Whether it's nominated for a prize or not is not in my control. And what a reviewer says about it is not in my control. So I have to really pour all that energy into the day-to-day-ness of sitting down and doing the work. And I have to take all the gains and the return from that because, I mean, it might never come out. I could get hit by a truck. It could get banned. So many things can prevent you from getting the recognition or the achievement. But if you actually like the process and doing the thing, that's attainable right now for effectively anyone.

26:40Yeah, that was a great thing, what you just said. Exactly. So that you should enjoy doing things. And even I never get any R01 grant. That meant in the US that you are a scientist. this. I never get one. But learning and concentrating for a couple of months, just one project on how would I, how others tried to approach the problem and what they did and how I could see things differently. This whole process is an exciting thing and learning. That's what is important. Well, I imagine there's some lessons there that you probably passed on to your daughter too, which is like, you don't control whether you make the Olympic team.

27:20You don't control if you get injured, you have to like, you have to like the craziest part of it, which is hours and hours of rowing or hours and hours of writing or hours and hours. You have, you have to like the worst part of it the best to potentially be great at something. As you just said, I told my daughter, isn't that boring? Every day, just go backward on her spot. And she said, mom, it is every practice is different. I enjoy it in the minute. And it isn't like, you know, sometimes we're well paid for stuff. Sometimes we're not, but isn't like the rarest, most wonderful gift you can get is to find that thing, that crazy thing that you love that other people can't wrap their heads around.

28:02Not everyone gets that. Yeah. So, because that's what we are going to school to try out ourselves that maybe this one or this one is more, you know, when, when you move out from also this comfortable zone, you're not just discovering the world around you, you're discovering more about yourself that, oh, I am able to do that. I never even thought, but you know, I was put in the situation and I had to get out somehow from it. So you, this discovery of yourself is, is, you know, during when you are in school and, you know, or, or the rest of your life, you know, you are always discovering something about yourself.

28:40Yeah. What's the thing that lights you up? And then what are the capacities that you didn't know that you had. That's the kind of day-to-day discovery that you get to explore. Exactly. It was a long grind from what I understand. So you came to Pennsylvania when and how long were you basically in the basement laboratory exploring? It was not quick. Yeah. So 1985, we arrived, so 40 years ago. And after three years at Temple where I work heavily, you know, a lot of work I did there and finally, you know, I was kicked out I was subject for deportation not because I was bad but because you know, my professor wanted me to stay and then I commuted to Bethesda then I, you know, 24 years I spent at the University of Pennsylvania, I was hired as faculty but five years later I was demoted and I was, you know, doing experiments but, you know, I was I always had somebody who believed me, who had money, and then I could get salary and, you know, not much.

29:48But, you know, up until 2010, it was already$60 ,000. So probably much less than a technician. But I didn't care about that part. I thought that, you know, I can make this mRNA useful, this messenger RNA useful tool. And that was, you know, I was so encouraged and believed. So I think sometimes people think that all it takes is being good at something or all it takes is having an idea. But it sounds like there was a lot of politics. There was a lot of patience. There was a lot of putting up with slights. There was a lot of developing thick skin, a lot of just simple endurance. Like that's a key component to anyone that accomplishes anything.

30:34I guess some people get green lights all the way, but most of us don't. Yeah, so you have to believe in yourself, you know, coming from this small town. And now that in Ivy League, you have to believe that, okay, my English is not good, you know, but yeah, I can think about something that all of these smart people who are publishing nature science, maybe they are not thinking about. And you have to believe and you have to also realize that there are a lot of different difficulties. this, but like, you know, somebody's coming from another country, those immigrants, scientists, they already fight.

31:11It's so hard, you know, to get there. They won't give up so easily. You know, they are enduring hardship and, you know, swallowing things and don't talk back. I don't, I have to say sometimes under the table, I show my middle fingers, but because I was upset, But usually I was like a calm person and okay. Yeah, there's something about the adversity of your life and your upbringing that probably makes as painful and frustrating and annoying as some of the academic squabbling and inefficiencies and bureaucracies, you'd probably dealt with worse. So it wasn't so bad. Yes, of course. and you learn that you have to keep your eye on what you want to achieve.

31:59And then there are different difficulties are coming. But every time, you know, when you think, okay, that's why I want to go and that's what I want to accomplish. And then you can see just this is another and another problem and obstacles. And, you know, you just go over it. But how do you know you're not crazy? How do you know you're not delusional? Like when you're pursuing something that over and over again, people are basically telling you either explicitly isn't going to work or in what they're paying you or the hoops they're making you jump through. They're basically saying, we don't believe in this.

32:35This is a dead end. It's not worth anything. So I was not just doing and doing and repeating things and just not giving up, but I could see progress. So, you know, at the beginning, the problem was a small amount of protein was produced from the RNA. And then there are things, you know, we could change the RNA, put certain things on it. Oh, no, no, it is more protein. And it was, you know, this progress, you have to see progress. I'm not just repeating things just because, oh, I am the person who is not giving up and always reading maybe this one. And then you try a zillion things to deliver the RNA, improving the RNA, purifying it.

33:14And then somehow I could not, I was thinking, okay, this is work, something. And I couldn't stay home. So whether it was Sunday, Saturday, whether it is New Year's Eve or New Year's Day, I had to go because I felt that, okay, now I have this answer. And when I was doing what I was thinking, if it's not coming, maybe the result, which I expected, it, then maybe I have to do this and that. And I was always told my colleagues, I wish I would be a week or months older because then I would know the result. I wish so much always that, okay, maybe it works. And I was excited. If you would talk to my husband, he would say that I'm not coming home like, oh, everybody's horrible, terrible.

34:04I was always that excitement. Well, I think I saw a quote from him in that New York Times profile of you where he was like, don't you feel sorry for my wife? She loved going to work every day. Yeah, but he was the same. You know, he also likes the feeling that, you know, if he's a maintenance manager in a housing complex and they need him because he can fix everything and, you know, he can figure out things. And that feeling that they want me because I can help. And it didn't matter whether it was, you know, Thanksgiving dinner or something. you know, he got the call and then, you know, he's already there.

34:45Yeah. If you feel like your work matters and it's fulfilling to you, you'll put up with a lot. Did you find it motivating? Like was part of it for you? Like, I want to prove these people wrong. No, I never care about, you know, what others are saying or, you know, every time when somebody put me down or even now they are asking now that you go back and what are you telling those people? They are colleagues. I talk to them. I don't say anything bad. Well, sometimes that's fuel for people, right? Wanting to prove them wrong, wanting to be vindicated. That can be very motivating for people. But I do tend to find that that's kind of corrosive also.

35:29So what that does is when you finally succeed, you think it's finally going to change something or people are going to apologize or admit they were wrong. and you're going to feel better and you never do. Yes. Do you think that my neurosurgeon chairman, I mean, he doesn't know what his mRNA is doing. You know, he could see that I don't get any grant. No, what feeling? You know, no. And I don't even, you know, agree with those who evaluated my grants because, you know, they have so many things to do. And then they would, you know, reading the abstract and they could see, oh, you know, this is weird things.

36:11And, you know, they have other problems, you know, with their family, with their laboratory. They need grants. They need papers pushing. And, you know, they have limited attention. And every time when I was reading, you know, something criticism and I could say, oh, you know, they didn't understand what I was saying, you know, and then I said, yeah, I should write better. I always look what I should do, not what they should do. Yeah, it's easy to take it all personally. And then you realize they're not thinking about you at all. You don't even exist to them. And they're evaluating a million other people.

36:50The publishing industry is not sitting around trying to not publish you. It's that you're not what they're looking for. And you have to figure out either how to be that or you got to wait your turn. And it sounds like you kind of did both in science. Yes, they want more preliminary data and, you know, they want more publication. But because I was alone, you know, I had to perform the experiments. I had to write it up. I had to read the literature. I had to do every part. And so it was, you know, I was not that productive. So you did all this for, you know, 30 plus years. I'd be curious, did that time go quickly or was it very slow?

37:30Like, I've always found that to me, a sign that you're doing the right thing and you're in the right place is how often you lose track of time. You just get lost in it. And I imagine you read about Darwin deciding to take a 10-year detour to study barnacles or whatever. 10 years seems excruciating, but I bet it went by very quickly for him because to him, it was an essential part of what he was trying to figure out to go do this other thing. When you just love it, you lose track of time. Was it an excruciating process for you or were you just lost in it? Well, I probably lost time, you know, thinking that, oh, you know, what am I doing?

38:09You know, sometimes I, okay, even in the laboratory, you know, in daily basis, just realizing, oh my God, I have to pick up my daughter in the afterschool program and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. But if someone's drawn to a career in science and then you said, okay, you got to spend the next 30 years in the bowels of academia without recognition or credit or, you know um they might think oh that sounds like torture yeah so but um i always mention to the young one that you have to select something which you find you find important so that you worse you know spending all your life on something it has to be valuable not not you know things Nobody did that.

38:56But who cares? But if you find something which is worse because maybe, you know, understanding the disease and then it will help to create a medicine for it or something, you feel passionate. Okay, that's important. Yeah. Even others not recognize that it is important. But you have to have that feeling in you. Well, and this is probably why money is not a great motivator, because you'd have to pay someone a lot and a lot of money to stick at something for 30 years. Clearly, it wasn't motivated by the money because you weren't getting any, but you were motivated by something deeper but weirdly more accessible than money, which is that it lit you up.

39:38Yes, yes. I was motivated to improve that RNA performance. And one day, I did not think that it would be in my lifetime. I said, maybe one day somebody will take on a new level. And that's what you have to, scientists, you know, that feeling you need. Maybe I will be able, but maybe somebody else. And I am helping. And all of these scientists, you know, they work together. Every time I get an award, I always thank all of those people. You know, those who I learned from them, just reading their paper, they already did a long time ago. But I learned from them. I also have to say that I say thank you to all of those people who tried to make my life miserable and, you know, gave me hardship because it made me work harder and improve myself.

40:27And, okay, I invited only for the ceremony, for the Nobel Prize ceremony, those who helped me, those who, you know, have my process, but by blocking me, they were not there. Yes, yes. But but they contributed to what you became, because in the way that, you know, lifting a heavy weight or whatever, the resistance is making you stronger. It refined you and it sharpened you and it taught you things that ultimately you did integrate into the research that was successful. I mean, even in high school, when my teacher, you know, were telling me that he will block me to entering the university because he knows somebody and he hated me.

41:11And, you know, in retrospect, I can think that, okay, if he says that, Kati, you are so good, I know somebody, I will make sure that you are accepted. Isn't that I would spend less time studying for this entry exam? Of course I studied. I had to do the best to make sure that they accept me. So that's what, you know, the parents try to help their children and they're arranging things. You are robbing your child to learn how to fight for themselves. Sure. Because at one point you can go to the school and tell the teacher that don't do that and that. But, you know, eventually you won't go to the employers and say, oh, this is my child.

41:50You shouldn't say that and that, you know, so they have to learn. Do you know what a snowplow parent is? Have you heard that term? A snowplow parent is a parent who goes in front of their kids, clearing all the snow and the obstacles out of their way. And so, yeah, they never have to struggle. They never have to learn how to do things for themselves. And, you know, ultimately life is hard for everyone. and the snowplow goes away at some point and you're really setting them up to struggle because not only do they not know how to do things, they also lack the most important thing, which is they can't deal with frustration and disappointment, which is kind of the meta skill of life.

42:29You try to help, but you are not helping. Well, look, if your parents had told you that you were a princess and you were going to get everything you wanted in life and that you were a genius and everyone would appreciate you and give you everything you wanted. I got to imagine those 30 years of snubs and jerks and doubts and demotions, you would have interpreted that differently. It would have been a kind of a rude awakening that maybe would have made you less resilient and able to deal with what you had to deal with to end up where you are now. Yeah. And there are a momentum when parents really need the child to help, because when they are wandering around and in a crisis, then you have to help them.

43:13But most of the time, just let them to deal with fellow students, the teachers, and with respect. You have to teach them. And I believe that the first six, seven years of life, watching your parents, how they relate to each other, to other people, the kids will pick up, and then it shaped what kind of people they will be. at the parents, the school, the classmates, the teachers, and watching them. It is unavoidable. Obviously, it's a fact of life. There's going to be jerks. There's going to be people who doubt you. You're not going to get green lights all along the way. Not every colleague is going to see you as a friend.

43:53But it does strike me like people don't have to be that way, right? Like the world would be better if people were nicer, if they helped, if they supported each other. It is a shame that people choose to be that way. I guess we can't reform society, but we can reform ourselves. We can decide not to be like that. Yeah. Actually, I quote in my book, Chey, saying that you should not retaliate. You should not think about revenge when you are very upset with somebody because it hits you back if you are, and it escalates. And you have to think about, you know, some way to be grateful for the same person you were just ready to kick balls or something, you know, and you're very angry.

44:39You have to think that in one way I can be still grateful for that person because it said that it will calm you down.

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45:58Well, I'm just saying it's like in your story, there's a bunch of people that were obstacles and difficulties and, you know, not necessarily the most supportive. But you also said at every step of the way, there was someone who believed in you, who did support you. And, you know, where would we be without those people? There are the bosses that support and subsidize and open doors. Like, we can choose to be those kinds of people, the sort of angels and patrons and protectors that at various points in our career, you know, really did something for us that they didn't have to do. Exactly. Elliot Barnetan, who hired me at Penn, he stand up for some bullies there who tried to inhibit me to even for part of scientific discussion because I asked scientific questions, but I thought they considered me disruptor.

46:54And he stood up and then he was not tenured and he had to leave. Oh, wow. Okay. The thing was there, you know, that I invited him to Stockholm and David Langer, you know, who was just a student. And actually he was like, you know, as a medical student kind of saying always that, you know, by, you know, he learns, he will learn everything what I know. I told him, oh, by that time, I will know so, so much more that you'll never, ever catch me. But then, you know, we became good friends. And then, you know, he helped me to, for 17 years, I get a position at neurosurgery. And every time when they were about, you know, kick me out, you know, he came back from New York and he made sure that whatever little money I got, but I should get it and then stay.

47:44And so I was, he was also in Stockholm. And all of my teachers from Hungary, you know, those educators from university, they wrote a high school book about molecular biology when just nine years after discovering the code and mRNA, already it was in my high school book. Wow. You know, biological book. Thanks to them. Yeah, it's better to celebrate those people than ruminate on the people who were not so great. Exactly. So I watched something where someone was asking you about, you know, the stress and the strain and the pain of all of it. And you actually mentioned stoic philosophy, which is what I write about.

48:25I didn't I was that was a link I wasn't expecting. Yes. So I was always focusing on what I can do. Yeah. And whether we are behind the Iron Curtain, we were, you know, under embargo, many things. We couldn't leave the country. We couldn't go to a conference or something. but okay we cannot do it but what we can do is doing things and you could read and then you could ask fellow scientists in the western country part of Europe to send you things and you know you felt so honored that they were you know thinking yeah these guys they are scientists, fellow scientists I always when different countries under embargo I think about them you know the scientists they are just scientists like I was and, you know, want to do things and that they cannot have that one day, the life, you know, they are living right now, maybe, you know, the country has different limitation.

49:26And so that's, you focus on things, what you can do. And right now, whether in the US, whoever in White House, whoever, you just have to figure out what you can do. For me, you know, when I was driving to, you know, 15 miles to work at Penn, every time I was more worried about what is in the Schokiel Expressway as a traffic jam. Whoever sits in the White House didn't influence me. But daily basis, more the traffic and other things. And what can I do? I started very early in the morning so I can avoid, you know, traffic. And that's what focusing on things, what we can do. Do you remember how you found the Stoics?

50:05Did someone introduce you to them or? Yeah. When I was 16 years old, I mentioned, you know, So Janos Szeje was Hungarian, and he wrote a book about how to handle stress. Actually, in 1930, he introduced the word stress from physics. That was what he was using for. And because he was Hungarian, they translated his book about how to handle stress. And in high school, I was 16 years old. In the biology class, we all read this book, and then we discussed the different situations So that how we should understand that and that. And then, you know, later I realized that, of course, Marcus Aurelius and all of these, you know, actually what he was saying always that focus on what you can do.

50:52That was the same what Shaya was saying, but, you know, long before him, you know, saying others. Well, I don't know if you know this. I'm sure you do. But, you know, Marcus Aurelius wrote part of meditations in Budapest. I didn't know. Yeah. I don't know if you ever visited a Quincum. There's a Roman camp right outside of ruins there. And we know Marcus really spent a good chunk of time in Budapest visiting the troops. And in the dates lineup, we think he wrote, you know, a chunk of it. When he talks about, you know, never stepping in the same river twice, he could have been talking about the Danube.

51:27Like, he was there. He was bathing in the hot springs. He was walking on the dusty roads. He was there where you're from. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. I know Aquincuman, but I didn't know about he was here. It kind of blows your mind because when you think of the Roman Empire, you know it was big, but you still think of Italy or you think of Greece. You don't think that they're in Eastern Europe. I mean, he dies in Vienna. It's kind of mind-blowing. I lived in Mainz, you know, nine years when I worked in Biontech. Actually, across the street was the wall, you know, so it was the empire.

52:05was there in Germany in Mainz next to Frankfurt. That was the bigger war was there. Yeah. I mean, he spends most of his, he has this quote, he says, life is warfare and a journey far from home. And I think he was being metaphorical, but also literal. I mean, he spends most of his time not in this fancy palace, but he's traveling for work, so to speak. Yeah, so all of this I was reading in Hungarian poems about, you know, that really all of these politicians and all of these leaders, you know, and they are not, you know, creating things. They just did understand, they understand, did understand what is going on.

52:54You know, that's what, you know, like my colleague, Orson, BioNTech, the CEO of BioNTech, said, you know, that this is a good football player. Instantly, you have to have, this is the situation. I pass the ball here or there. So all of this understanding of what is going on and what you will do and what you can. And that's, you know, the story that you can do. What is a position or possibility? That's what you do. Well, it's funny how timeless this stuff is, because one of the things that Epictetus talks about is he says a great philosopher is like a great athlete. He says, like, they throw the ball to you, you throw it back.

53:35They throw it to you, you throw it back. You catch it, throw it back, catch it, throw it back. He's like, you don't have time to label it a good throw or a bad throw. You don't have time to complain or whine. You just got to catch it and throw it back. And he believed, you know, that was Socrates, that Socrates was just dealing with what life threw at him back and forth, back and forth. And that that's what a great athlete does. That's what a great CEO does. It's probably what a great scientist does, is you're just in it. You don't have time for labels and complaining and fairness or unfairness.

54:08You're just doing it. But having practice and, you know, different situation, then you can do. Yes. You're making much faster. Yes. And that's an advantage. And whereas other people are spending time, you know, complaining and things which they cannot change, but they talk, keep talking about. And, you know, whenever they say that people have things and they don't have and they don't have any opportunity to do something about it, they will be always depressed that, you know, I cannot do anything. And it is just the life goes by and, you know, they just one day realize that, oh, life is over. And I was focusing on things and wasting my time instead of focusing on something which I can do.

54:57And not complaining that where did I born? You know, I should born somewhere else. I am very happy that I born in Hungary. and who, you know, my parents were people who were not professors and we, you know, lived a very simple life, but they loved each other and that, you know, more important, you don't see much of the communist system, you know, when I was growing up, like, you know, up to 10 years old that you just could see a happy family. Yeah. And you have enough to eat because I could see other kids had to go from house to house and back for some, an egg or a little food. I've been trying to think about that lately.

55:38I don't think anyone's childhood is exactly the way that they wanted it to be, but I just decided a year or so ago, I was going to focus a lot more on what I did get than what I didn't get. And I was going to count myself lucky for the things that I did get, as opposed to continuing to sort of dwell on the things that I should have gotten, or I wished that my parents could have done. And like, they are who they are. I'm lucky that I had these other people and these other things and, and that that's what I'm going to choose to focus on. Exactly. Because anyway, you know, if I would look around and, you know, nobody had running waters in their home, you know, they, we had electricity, but, you know, refrigerator, television set, but nobody had, I didn't even know.

56:23So it was like a simple life, but the whole neighborhood was just like that. Yeah. And we play on the, you know, on the street. We had like one car per week, you know, and all of the cows were when in the morning went out to the field and in the evening came back and it was just a simple life. Well, one other connection between our two worlds that I didn't realize until 2020, obviously pandemics and plagues existed in the ancient worlds too. too, sometimes you don't see something until your own circumstances change. But it just never occurred to me that Marcus Aurelius was writing during a plague.

57:04He was writing during the Antonine Plague. And he has this quote in Meditations where he says, there's actually two types of plagues. He says, there's one that can take your life. And so there he's referring to the literal Antonine Plague, which is probably some form of smallpox. And then he says, there's this other one that can destroy your character. And that one's actually worse. And I think he was talking about the way people get radicalized. People believe in conspiracy theories. People turn on each other. People hoard things. And I just thought it was so fascinating the way that, you know, 2000 years collapse and you go, oh, he was dealing with the exact same things we were dealing with.

57:45Yes, exactly. And that's really diverse. You know, what we are experiencing right now that all of this misinformation and I don't even know that what should we do or how we could actually in first week of March I go to the Vatican and with other economists, politicians and religious leaders will discuss, and artists to discuss how we get here, you know, that what so many things is ending our world seems like, you know, war and and all of this misinformation and many other things and and what what we all the scientists and different artists and others what we can do and how can we can deal i don't know and it kind of resembles a virus like you watch someone they start to show a few symptoms they say something they're like oh that's odd or they're you know they act this way and then and then the next thing you know, they're like a full-blown lunatic.

58:46And you go, oh, you got infected. And now you're saying things or you're believing things or worse, you're supporting policies or people that have very real consequences, sometimes matters of life and death for thousands, if not millions of people. And it's kind of this metaphorical virus that is, yeah, I mean, you could argue it's infected millions of people all over the world. I don't know anyone that is, I mean, obviously long COVID exists, but most people I know are not still dealing with the aftermath of that part of the pandemic. But I know a lot of people that haven't come back, you know, from things they picked up on the internet during 2020 and 2021.

59:34Yes, yes, exactly. And, you know, they are reading something two, three times, and they believe that it must be true. Yes. And I feel, you know, we as a scientist who have the responsibility that educate the public and we have to learn how to use simple language and then, you know, the gap between the knowledge of a scientist who is in the forefront and the average person is so huge. Yes. And we have to help them, you know, because there are still people who, you know, waiting for that we will educate them And so we have to do it. Yeah. Effective communication and logistics and support systems and culture, these things, you can have all the scientific breakthroughs in the world.

1:00:20But if people are threatened by things or they don't understand things or they feel misled by things, you're going to crash into a pretty big brick wall. Yeah. So exactly. We have to do it because if we don't, then others who have learned molecular biology or infectious disease from the Internet, they work where they get. Yeah. Usually selling something, they are making money. At the end, you will see that they will identify something that take this one. That's for sure. Yeah. If scientists can't be effective at communicating their ideas and they can't sell them, so to speak, somebody else who's better at selling will compete for that bit of attention and sell something, sell something worse, you know?

1:01:12And, you know, we have to understand that even 100 years ago, the people, the average person was afraid of scientific breakthroughs. You know, that even when Röntgen demonstrated that he has these x-rays and it will go through the flesh and other things. And the others took part of this thing and they said, oh, you know, it goes through the cloud, your dress. And then they started selling, you know, x-ray resistant underwear. They made money. And they said that like in the binoculars in the theater shouldn't have x-ray. They already lobbied in England because then people will see you, you know, and then they can see you without clothes.

1:01:58And they didn't say, hey, this goes through the flesh too. But they just took part of the, you know, truth. Yeah. So that's 100 years ago, but it was no internet and no social media that people would, you know, in a mess, they would learn. Yeah, I mean, I was reading about the rush to invent the polio vaccine. And it was like one, like, I guess early on in the case of the polio vaccine, there was a batch that was contaminated. There was some problem with the polio vaccine. And then one guy, a very well-known media columnist, sort of becomes a prominent anti-vaxxer. It sets the whole thing back.

1:02:35And you go, oh, history just repeats itself. This is how human beings respond to things that are scary, things that are unfamiliar, things that are dangerous. I mean, there's an argument that Benjamin Franklin and his wife split up where you live, you know, split up over an argument about whether to vaccinate their their son for for smallpox. And they decide not to. And he doesn't live. And it sort of hovers over their marriage for the rest of their life. And you go, oh, the same things that couples were arguing about in 2021, you know, people were arguing about in the 1730s and 40s and 50s. Yeah.

1:03:19So history repeats itself. Yeah. Very, very sad. And, you know, we, I constantly try to figure out that how we could help the people who try to, I have to say that in, we have this mRNA meeting and, you know, those messenger RNA field, we already, 2013, you know, we knew how many things happened and we are doing, so it was not coming out of nowhere. Even people don't know that they used mRNA vaccines, already human trial prior to 2020. So it was, it was already well-known things in our field that messenger RNA has this potential they use for heart disease and other diseases. And so we knew that.

1:04:07And so we had this responsibility. And one mRNA therapy meeting, you know, that they showed this cartoon. And they didn't have to explain that, oh, this is the virus because it was very ugly and dark. Not like most of the people make the, you know, the COVID in pink. No, this was ugly. And then, you know, the cells, you don't have to explain that this is some immune cells and they're rushing and capturing. And they show that how somebody gets a vaccine and how the cells are running there and educate themselves. And then they are chasing the virus. So that's very simple that you don't have to use a word.

1:04:44You understand who you have to root for. Yes. Yeah, that's true. Well, look, I think you're such a wonderful example of like it doesn't matter what's happening in the world. It doesn't matter if you're appreciated or not. It doesn't matter if everyone thinks it's the next big thing or they think it's a bust. The one thing that's in our control is the work that we do. And we should keep our head down, do our work, and that we should direct ourselves towards things that we think can make a big difference. And that there's something, I think, important and in your case, heroic about sticking to that.

1:05:19You never know where it's going to go or what's going to come of it. But don't despair. Don't get depressed. just focus on your work and do good work. And if everyone does that, it makes collectively an enormous difference. Yes, exactly. And I have to say that you have to convince at least one person who is close to where, you know, the money, the prestige, and that was Elliot who get grant. You have to convince one person. If you cannot convince, you know, those who are giving out the grant at least one person personally, and then you could do the research because otherwise, you know, you can be a periphery, but if you don't get money to do the research, then, you know, you get lost.

1:06:04Well, if you can't convince one person, it's probably a bad sign that either the idea is not good or that you don't understand it. You know, we were talking about communication earlier, you know, Feynman talked about how you have to be able to explain this thing to a five year old or you don't understand it. If you can't get anyone to understand the potential of what you're doing, maybe that's because you don't understand it. Exactly. I agree. So I ask always the students go home and talk to your grandmother, explain. And if you can do that, then it's good. You have to practice that. We haven't done that.

1:06:40You know, that's, that was a problem that I like to talk to another colleague, learn from them and not to try to explain to an average person that what is this modification is all about what I was doing. Well, I think about that with philosophy. I wake up and I'm fascinated by ancient philosophers, but most people aren't. Most people are busy. And my job is to tell them how this stuff matters to them. And if I can't do it, or if they're not interested, it means I'm not doing a good enough job. We have to figure out how to take our thing and make it matter to other people. That's what they pay you for.

1:07:21Yes. I have to say, actually, in papers, published scientific papers in the 50s, 60s, I love them. Less data, but a lot of thinking. And today, you know, 40, 50 pages of data, data, data, and you cannot find it. What is this thinking behind? You know, so I love and I just amazed that how deep thinkers were those scientists in 50 years ago? Well, because today they're not writing for an audience. They're writing to publish in some obscure academic journal that no one's ever going to read. And when you're writing to try to reach the public or you're trying to actually communicate what you're talking about, it's a different mode of thinking, I think.

1:08:06They looked at the big pictures. And now these days, as I heard, they say you learn more and more from less and less. And finally, you know everything from nothing. Thank you for your amazing work. And thank you for taking the time to talk to me. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Ryan. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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