Rock Bottom, Recovery, and Starting Over at 40 | Jon Gustin

0:00Ryan Holiday: Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

0:14Ryan Holiday: A lot of people think, you know, sobriety is about quitting something. I gotta quit smoking, I gotta quit drinking, I gotta quit doing this or that. But anyone that's kicked a serious habit knows that it's not so much about quitting as it is confronting. not just your relationship with that substance, but why you turn to it in the first place, what it's doing in your life, what hole it's filling, what problem it's helping you medicate or run away from. You know, it's about facing your emotions instead of running from them, how to deal with chaos and dysregulation instead of just reaching for relief.

0:51Ryan Holiday: And I think that's why Stoicism has become so popular in 12-step groups and recovery, but also just anyone trying to get control of themselves, trying to deal with those things that Seneca says make us a slave. And Seneca isn't even just talking about substances, right? Seneca's talking about ambition. It's talking about power. It's talking about wanting to be liked, wanting to be famous, wanting to be rich. And for the Stoics, it wasn't about perfect abstinence necessarily, especially for some of these things that actually are a part of life, unlike, you know, cigarettes, which you don't need to smoke or crack, which you don't need to do.

1:31Ryan Holiday: Some of these other things are a more integral part of life and therefore confronting them and our dependence on them or our unhealthy relationship with them is even harder. I was talking about this a few years ago with Troy Baker. We did a great episode of the podcast. We're talking about Mark Sreelius and the idea that Mark Sreelius is not the work of someone who has mastered himself once and for all, but someone who's still wrestling, still correcting, still trying, still confronting himself in the fight to be the person that philosophy wants him to be. This is what we said. It's important that we don't see the Stoics.

2:08Ryan Holiday: He's not writing in meditations from this sort of sage-like Zen perspective of having triumphed over his emotions. It's the opposite. He's saying that because he got pissed at people today. I literally picture him, you know, from the river, you know, he's like sitting there going, you got to get your shit together, man. When there's a passage towards the end, he's like, you're an old fucking man and you're still doing this, you know, and you realize this is not, this is not teenage Marcus putting down rules for how he wants to be. This is 30, 40, 50 years of philosophy, Marcus, who's still having trouble with this shit.

2:47Ryan Holiday: with great teachers along the way. It's not like he didn't have a model for it. Like he had literally the best education and he's still struggling. So there is sometimes where I think that the employing of comparison can be helpful. And that's what today's conversation with John Gustin is about. It was a lovely little conversation. John is the creator of The Tired Dad. If you spent any time on TikTok or Instagram, you got kids, probably the algorithm has surfaced you, his stuff. A couple of years ago, his wife bought him Stillness is the Key, my book, and then Daily Dad, which he was saying or sort of a transitional point in his life when he was trying to get sober, trying to write more, trying to be a better father and husband.

3:21Ryan Holiday: And in this episode today, I wanted to riff a little bit with him on his path to sobriety, what made him change, practices that are helping him stay sober, and how stoicism became a part of that journey. You can check out John's new book, The Tired Dad, 100 Reflections on Showing Up for What Matters Most. And then, of course, you should follow him on all the social platforms. Just search The Tired Dad. It's everywhere. It's a great follow. He's awesome. And I think you'll like this little episode.

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5:10Ryan Holiday: Terms and conditions apply. So generally, I get to wear whatever I want, which is usually if you see me, it's running shorts and a heavy metal T-shirt. But, you know, sometimes we have a fancy guest on. I want to dress up or I'm giving a talk and I've got to dress up or I'm going to be on TV and I've got to dress up. And lately I've been wearing a lot of quince. I've loved their sweaters. What I try to do is find staples, like things that I really like and I'll get multiple colors or, you know, I'll just go through that brand or that company's catalog and get a bunch of stuff I like. And I'm so glad that quince has been a sponsor because they saved me a bunch of money.

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6:29Ryan Holiday: So tell me about getting sober. Yeah, I've never had a good relationship with any substance. It started when I was 13, 7th grade. My friend gave me Adderall and it was, this is amazing. I want to feel like this forever. It's like it's solving all my problems with like socialization and everything. So that's kind of the sign you're an addict, right? When it's like that magical experience. Yeah. When you become an addict the first time you do something, which is how everything's been. First time I got drunk, I got alcohol poisoning at a school dance. And you would think that would be OK. This isn't for me.

7:09No. So that's how I knew my relationship with substances just was not was not healthy. Yeah. And lied to myself for years thinking, oh, I can control it. And, you know, you get sober for like three months and you're like, great. But you make up for lost time. Yeah. When's your back? But 2020 really was not good for it. Because suddenly you're trapped at home with yourself. And we had our second born, my son, during that time, late 19, we had him.

7:41Ryan Holiday: Yeah, we were in the same boat. Yeah, I always used it to just like hide my emotions, you know, not deal with stuff. I grew up with a very non-expressive family. My dad is, you know, military. My grandpa was military. It wasn't I didn't feel like I could be expressive. You know, I was though. I'm a big feeler. When you when you when you drank, they could come out or was that it helped you keep them locked up? Both. You know, it just you know, it solves the stuff that you should deal with. Yeah. And so flash forward to me getting sober in the beginning of 23, the second day in 2023. That first year was it's not like it was, oh, my gosh, I'm sober.

8:25This is so great. It was like, oh, the last 20 years, here they are. Yeah. This is all the stuff you need to deal with.

8:34Ryan Holiday: Because running away from your problems is like putting them on a credit card. There's just the interest that is accruing. And then you look at the balance one day and you're like, oh shit, I have 20 years of deferred, accumulated interest on all the shit that has been piling up since childhood. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I knew, I was being honest with myself that I knew it wasn't going to get better. and my kids were young at the time but I knew where it was going and I didn't want to have to get sober when they were you know when they knew what was going on right you know and I just didn't want to be that dad and I just stopped lying to myself and I just dealt with it head on and what did you do you go to rehab you go to meetings how'd you do it no just um really just I just stopped and like consumed a lot of material, you know, the full circle moment here.

9:32My wife got me stillness is key. And it came out in 2019. I think it was before. Um, and I shelved it. Yeah. I didn't know who you were at the time. I didn't know what stoicism was. I always had this idea that stoicism was just to hold everything in and kind of this like Sparta mentality. Right. Yeah. Sure. As time went on. I picked it up again during that time when it was like, all right, after 2020, I need to figure my life out. And I read it and I was like, oh, okay, this makes so much sense of inner peace and dealing with everything, killing the ego, all that. And then the next book my wife got me was Daily Dad for Father's Day.

10:16Oh, wow. Yeah. So it was kind of like a big part of that journey in the beginning. Really, 2022 was like everything came to a head internally. It was never a lot of people when I did get sober, they're like, I didn't know you had a problem. My wife knew what was going on. Was it a thing you guys would fight about? Like it was there or it was just kind of unsaid? We never fought about that. It didn't help things, you know, just normal arguments were amplified. Yeah. Right. Because of it. But I was never an angry drunk or anything like that. But internally, I was really, really low. And I knew something had to change.

10:55And I mean, she my wife has been I think I would have had to have gone somewhere if I didn't have her. Yeah. She has been such a big support to me in everything. And she's helped me express myself more. She's very expressive and just like true teammates and been through some stuff. And a lot of it just had to do with ego. You know, in marriage, like ego does not work. It does not.

11:25Ryan Holiday: Because there's another person. Yes. Yeah. And once we figure that out, and also kids change your marriage completely. Sure. And it's uncharted territory. No one was really guiding us. It was all on our own. So was it a clean break for you or was it a period of a couple of years where you're really getting serious about it? Oh, yeah. It was probably 21 to 23. I was trying really hard and would take breaks and everything, but then 23. What made the difference in 23? Like what set you up to be successful in 23 that you didn't have in 22 and 21? I would just say it was just kind of that rock bottom moment.

12:03Yeah. Emotionally, internally, that I was like, done. I'm like, I'm done. I need to figure this out. I'll do whatever I need to do. But, you know, I did cold plunges every day. I don't even care the benefits of it. Like I did it because it calmed my mind down. It was something extreme.

12:23Ryan Holiday: For you, was it finding other ways of sort of quieting whatever that thing that you were using drugs and alcohol to address? Yep. What are some of those things? Breath work, cold plunging, reading, writing, journaling, running, working out, just anything to get my mind off of it and to stay. And then I got really like focused on, you know, being a dad and being a good husband and just kind of focused all that. Because it's the extreme behavior of an addict. You have to switch to extreme behavior to something that's good for you. Yeah. Or bad for you. Right. So the energy, it's like you have this energy or this sort of restlessness or dysfunction that doesn't just go away.

13:11Ryan Holiday: Right. It needs an outlet. Exactly. That's why you see like addicts become ultra marathon runners or something, you know. But do you find social media can be a dysfunctional outlet for that energy too? There is that dopamine rush, the ego of it. You can stir shit up. There's an endless amount of energy like just on the other side of your phone too. Is that weird for you, given that it's also your job? Yeah. We know that if there's not a balance with it, it can be toxic to you. Being an addictive personality, obviously. But I try to use it to put out a positive message and to help people through it.

13:50And, you know, that's easier said than done because social media is social media.

13:55Ryan Holiday: and uh i just mean i could i could see an environment where like if i got sober it's like oh no no this isn't a bad habit this is my job oh yeah where you can go into i can go into a work addiction but then if your work is your phone in social media i could see that as being a kind of a a potent oh yeah place it can but i'm i'm super aware of that because that comes from that, like you said, that the ego, oh, it's my job. And there's been times, you know, you learn from your mistakes. There's been times, definitely seasons where it's like, no, this is my job. But you know, you there, it's endless.

14:34Yeah. There's endless amounts of attention. Yeah. And it never stops. Conflict that you can just kind of get high off of. Yeah. And there's so many platforms and the work never ends. And just being an entrepreneur or self-employed, the work never ends. You can work 24 hours a day. You know that. Yeah. You know, so yeah, you have to, you have to be mindful of that for sure. So it's going well. Yeah. The, the, the sobriety thing, you got like two years, three years, three years, over three years. How does it feel? Is it better? Yeah. A lot better. And just going through that struggle and dealing with everything of the past 20 plus years that I hid and going through adolescence, like high basically.

15:16Sure. learn so much more about myself and kind of to relearn how to be a person for sure yeah and now i'm 40 years old i truly feel what's that quote about uh life begins at 40 and everything else is just practice like that's my quote right there yeah that is what i feel like i feel like i'm literally starting a whole new life and that past life was just messing up a lot yes and i imagine

15:42Ryan Holiday: And so going into your 40s sober, you're like, oh, this is how I have to deal with things that I've been not dealing with. Or this is this is I have to learn how to have the skills to deal with, whether it's a tantrum or it's stress about money. You're having to learn how to manage that that you weren't managing before because you were just put a band on it. Yeah. Right. And you feel like stoicism was a part of that journey for you? For sure. What do you think you took from it? the ego for sure and that helped my marriage and then just helped everything you're not special you're not exempt I feel like ego is like the downfall of everything yes like it's it's why people are workaholics it's why people aren't present with their families it's why marriages fail like it's a big part of it because you're not paying attention to what matters and it does you no favors at all.

16:35So ego was huge. And then just also that inner peace, like, and through the chaos. So that's the hardest part, right? Stoicism is the hardest when your kids are both screaming, you're trying to cook dinner, you're burning dinner, and it's just absolute chaos and you're trying not to lose.

16:57Ryan Holiday: Yeah, it's helpful to have something that can take the edge off. The problem is that that cure is worse than the disease. Yeah. Yeah. It will help during that time. But then what are the repercussions later? Right. Yeah. The thing about ego and sort of addiction is it's like it's this thing where you're like special, but then also you feel you feel bad about yourself at the same time. Like, isn't there like an Alcoholics Anonymous saying about like being the piece of shit at the center of the universe? Yeah. Like it's this weird ego, but also profound sense of worthlessness and loneliness. Yeah, I think especially with non-addicts that don't have addictive personalities, they look at other addicts like, it's a discipline thing.

17:43Yeah. And it's not a discipline thing. And it's also, it is selfish, but at some point, it's like you're not necessarily a bad person or a selfish person. You might be, but you might not be too. And then getting sober, a lot of the times people can carry that shame with them. Yeah. And that doesn't help their sobriety is to hold that regret and shame. And it's just kind of like, that wasn't you. Move on and deal with it.

18:14Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And I think obviously both parenting, stoicism and sobriety, I think how little control you have over things and the ability to sort of let go and roll with the punches is like that really difficult but essential lesson but there's a difference between knowing it and knowing it for sure and i mean isn't that the the problem with like self-help and everything that you can read all the self-help books yeah you can read all the stoicism books but you still have to do it Yeah. You can have all that knowledge. But what are you doing in your real life to to show that? But specifically with like addiction, there's there's a couple of layers here, which is like one, you can know you have a problem, but not believe you really have a problem.

19:01Ryan Holiday: Right. So there's there's like the knowing, hey, I know this isn't working for me. I know I got to quit this. But then you can say like later or down the road or it's not as bad as other people or I've got an arm of control. So you have that element of just like, you know it, but you don't really feel it, you know, where you feel it, but you don't know or whatever it is. And then there's the part where it's like, then you know what you need to do. And then the actual doing of it day to day is the next part of it. It's like, hey, I know these are the healthy habits. These are the practices. These are the things that keep me sober, that keep me on the right path.

19:39Ryan Holiday: And then are you doing it day to day or are you making excuses or are you making exceptions? And then that's when you get yourself into trouble. So there's the there's the knowing and then really knowing and being ready. Like, as you said, you wanted to get sober for a while, but it's not until some magical point in 2023 where you're like, OK, now it's really, really, really the time. And then just because you know it's the time, that doesn't help you right now. Three years later, where you have to do it again today and tomorrow and the day after. Yeah, it's just one day at a time, really. And that's a mindset that I shifted was don't just say, OK, it's going to start today and last forever.

20:22Yeah. It's going to start today and it's going to just be today and then it's going to be tomorrow. Yeah. And then I mean, sometimes you go hour by hour. I'm just not going to do it right now. Right now. And as long as you stack enough of those on top of each other, you're there. Yeah. And it comes down to really that self-reflection. So you have to be honest with yourself. Yeah. Like, am I an addict or maybe this just isn't serving me anymore and I want to stop it? Yeah. You know, it doesn't have to be, I think, addiction and everything is like, okay, you're homeless on the streets or you went to jail or you got your third DUI.

20:58Sometimes it's just a mental breakdown that gets you there. Or just a sense of like, hey, I had enough, man. Yeah, or a sense of I just don't want to be dependent on something. Or I don't want to have that glass of wine anymore. I'm just going to stop.

21:10Ryan Holiday: I don't want to wake up feeling X, Y, or Z in the morning anymore. And I know this is why I wake up that way. And that was the biggest, if I got something back from it immediately, waking up with my kids early without a headache. Sure. or not being like a brain fog in the morning and just having really good mornings every single morning was, was nice. I heard this interview with Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers where he was talking about how he, he wasn't an addict the way that some of the other members of the band were, but he would only do drugs or drink when he was out of town. He was like, I don't, I never do it around my kids.

21:50Ryan Holiday: And then he just had this epiphany or someone said to him once like, hey but what if your kids need you like while you're gone like they just want to talk on the phone and you can't because you're hot or or it's like what if they just like just even from like an energy standpoint your kid's going through something and you're over here in oblivion because you're saying out of sight out of mind and it's like that as a parent you don't get to say out of sight out of mind you never are actually off the clock yeah and so that's when he decided to get totally sober and i i like that like the idea that like your kids could need you wherever you are in the world, whatever's happening in their world or your world, you just don't have the luxury of checking out and doing something as selfish or as sort of, yeah, as selfish as going like, hey, I'm going to not be me for a while.

22:41Yeah, for sure. And that's a perfect example. And even just being just present with them, like remembering things with them, like the bedtime routines. And my kids say, I don't know about your kids, but they say the craziest stuff right before bed.

22:55Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And you're like, where the hell did that come? They could just be like kids the whole day and just, you know, they're just kids. And then all of a sudden. You have to become a philosopher. Oh, my gosh. My daughter will be like this whole like reflection of life and who she is. And and I'm like, what the heck? Yeah. And if you had a bottle of wine at dinner, you're not going to be there for that. Yeah. You're just like, all right, come on, come on. You know, sure. And to be like that fully present. And I know Marcus Aurelius, the extreme version is like, act like they're not even gonna wake up the next day.

23:31Ryan Holiday: You know, and well, and if they don't, how are you going to feel if you passed out in the bed next to them before they fell asleep? Yeah. Because you had too many drinks at dinner. Yeah. Or just being on your phone. Yeah, totally. Or with anything. You know, I talk about sobriety and everything, but I feel like everybody has some sort of addiction. Seneca says we're all slaves to something. Yeah. Yeah. And it could be ambition, which is work. It could be fame. It could be attention. It could be social media. Yeah, it could be drugs or alcohol. It could be things that are socially acceptable or things that are socially unacceptable.

24:08Ryan Holiday: But there's something that has power over you, and that power is getting between you and your kids. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's like a control thing? Do you think it's just trying to find comfort in something or a purpose? I mean, I think I think probably all of the above. There's the stuff that takes the edge off. And then there's also the fact that other people design those things to be good at hooking people. Right. Like the smartest people in the world have designed that phone to be hard to resist. It's like you wouldn't live in a casino. You'd be like, this is a bad environment, but you sort of carry one around with you.

24:40Ryan Holiday: Yeah. So it's like we're and we're just susceptible to it. Right. Because we come from an environment of scarcity and to have unlimited amounts of things to scroll or check or it's its own addiction.

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