Ryan And Guy Raz On Controlling Only What You Can

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1:30Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic Podcast. On Sundays, we take a deeper dive into these ancient topics with excerpts from the Stoic texts, audiobooks that we like here or recommend here at Daily Stoic, and other long-form wisdom that you can chew on on this relaxing weekend. We hope this helps shape your understanding of this philosophy, and most importantly, that you're able to apply it to your actual life. Thank you for listening.

2:10Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another weekend episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. life is unpredictable you make these plans but as they say you know we propose god disposes you know back in march i had two really exciting events robert green and i were going to do we're going to do big conversations in front of a live audience q a meet and greet uh just he and i uh doing what i've been lucky enough to do with him now for many years uh i was excited to to be able to bring that to an audience. And then we got to San Francisco, and Robert was just rocked with a bunch of health issues. We ended up having to call a hotel doctor.

2:56He went to the emergency room twice. It was very scary. He was in a lot of pain. And he was going to get on that stage, even if it killed him. And so we ended up pulling the emergency break. We're looking, we're going to have to cancel both events. And then this last minute thing saved us, which is I got a text from someone I knew who lived in San Francisco, was coming to the event, and they wanted to have dinner beforehand. And it was Guy Raz. Guy Raz, the amazing author of How I Built This, one of the greatest podcasts about entrepreneurship on the planet. He's also I've got a great kids podcast called Wow in the World.

3:41There's a new podcast called The Great Creators. Just an awesome dude. Old school journalist. One of the OGs in public radio. Just a great dude. Super smart dude. His wife, Hannah Ross, is amazing also. And she let me impose, blow up their dinner date, steal her husband. And he saved me, Robert, and this audience from being very, very disappointed. and Guy Raz and I ended up having a great conversation, which is what I'm bringing you in today's episode. I think you're really going to like it. If you've never heard Guy Raz's stuff, I don't know where you've been living. You can check out his podcast everywhere.

4:20We carry How I Built This in the Painted Porch Bookstore, a big bestseller, a lovely book that I was lucky enough to be a part of. It's a great book. I've been on his wisdom from the top podcast, which you can listen to. But that brings me to the announcement that I wanted to tie here on today's episode. We are, of course, rescheduling that date in Seattle, and we are adding a new date, Robert Green and I, in Los Angeles in September. So you can go to ryanholiday.net slash tour to check out both of those. We're going to be at the Wilshire Ebel Theater on September 19th. We're going to be at the Moore Theater in Seattle on September 21st.

4:58You can go to ryanholiday.net slash tour for tickets. And a special, very, very big thank you to Dawson Carroll, the podcast producer here, video producer I've mentioned a couple times, I think actually recently again. I took Robert to the doctor, but Robert was looking like he was doing better and then it got worse. And then Dawson took Robert to the hospital, actually flew him back to Los Angeles to make sure he was okay. he absolutely above and beyond a great dude now Robert's feeling better it was hard for both of us to make this tough decision we wanted the show to go on and I knew working with Robert on the laws of human nature launch that he would literally do anything for his fans but sometimes discipline moderation is taking care of yourself and being safe rather than sorry and uh anyways it's going to be an awesome show.

5:58People in San Francisco got this super cool unscheduled treat with me and Guy, and it was amazing to meet all of you. And we're really excited to do this in Seattle and Los Angeles. Again, you can grab tickets at ryanholiday.net slash tour. And I hope to see all of you in person very soon.

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7:25Why don't we take some questions? And while we line up, I think there's going to be a microphone. There should be a microphone in the center aisle or – Yep, center aisle. And others. Okay. And you can start to line up behind that mic if you have a question for Ryan. While we're waiting, I want to ask you about Marcus Aurelius. Okay. So Marcus Aurelius, what would he make of – first of all, My sense from your descriptions of him is that he probably would have valued courtesy and kindness, I think, even though he was a Roman leader and he was probably brutal and vicious. But I think maybe interpersonally he would have valued those qualities and characteristics.

8:08We're living at a time where, you know, things like kindness and courteousness are seen as like indulgences and, you know, unnecessary. And I have to admit I'm distressed by that because I think that I want to live in a world where people are courteous and kind. And I wonder what he would – I think that's so powerful because, you know, just like Robert's books, the purpose of stoicism is not to make you a better sociopath, right? It's not. It's supposed to make you a better person, right? Courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, right? Justice is not like this extra one that's thrown in there.

8:48It's like, you know, it's love thy neighbor as thyself. It's a core tenant of the religion. You can't just, you know, toss it out because it's hard or you don't like it. There's this beautiful line in the beginning of meditation. So meditations, we don't know how it was organized when he wrote it. Maybe it's exactly as we got it, or maybe someone put it all in an order that they liked. But the first book in meditation, almost 10 % of the book, is called Debts and Lessons. And it's all the things that Marcus learned from people in his life. And it's really remarkable to think that, again, he wasn't publishing it.

9:27So the Debts and Lessons, this is a personal balance sheet that he's keeping. And it's so beautiful what he says that he learned from all these people and how effusive he is in their praise, in his praise for them, even though they didn't know he was writing this. But he learns from just a sextist philosopher. And he says, one of the things he learned, he says, the key is to be free of passion. So free of like strong emotions. He says, but full of love. And that's not the image that we have of the Stoics, right? We have the Stoics as being free of passion, but we forget this extra part, which is full of love.

10:07And then towards the end of meditations, he talks about being strict with yourself but tolerant of others. And so I think we get these snapshots or these slices of Marcus as a remarkably patient person, a loving person, a person who cared about common good and humanity as a whole. And sure, yes, Rome was a violent, barbaric. They called the strangers the barbarians, but they were barbaric in every sense of the word. And Marcus would have participated in this and more or less given the green light. But we do get the sense that, as you said, when he had a choice, when it was him and another person, And he tried to be kind and cared about them and thought about, you know, the Stoics say like, you know, don't, you can't take offense, right?

11:02Like try to not get offended by other people. But I don't think they would, I don't think Marcus was going around saying politically incorrect things, not giving a shit about how other people thought. I don't think that's Marcus. So, yeah. He was not a troll. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. All right, we've got a long. Oh, wow. So I'm going to try to be disciplined and ask folks to keep it as concise as possible. No two-parters. No two-parters. So thank you, please. So thank you so much for joining us tonight in San Francisco. Huge fan, Ryan, and same with you, Guy. So my question for you, Ryan, is I know you know the 48 laws of power inside and out backwards.

11:43What would you say the law is that resonates with you the most today, 2023? The final law is assume formlessness, which is basically throw out all the other laws, which I think is the genius book, the genius part of that book, which is, you know, 40 laws of power isn't do this, then do this, then do this, then do this. Some people will say to Robert, well, you know, law, this and this one contradict each other. And they only contradict each other if you don't read all the way to the end and get to the last part, right? Philosophy and life is about paradoxes. Sometimes you do this, sometimes you do the opposite of this.

12:24And they're both true and they're both the right things to do. And so to me, I think the idea of formlessness, that the enemy of, the antithesis of wisdom and power and success and discipline is rigidity, right? This is the way it should be. This is who I am. And this is how I am. Formlessness being, I think, the apotheosis of that book. And ultimately what you're supposed to take from it is the ability to be flexible and adapt and adjust. Apply this law this time, the opposite of that law at other times. And that's why also people miss this. Every law has something at the end and it is the reversal of the law.

13:06It reminds me of Bruce Lee's famous line, be like water. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, Ryan. Hi. How do you view relational situations where one partner is actively practicing soicism and the other isn't? I mean, for example, I'm here by myself.

13:37That says it all. No, I get it. But look, I think one of the things that happens whenever one finds something that works or that fascinates them is you want to get other people to do it. You want to get that. And it's wonderful to share. You know, stoicism is not like an evangelical religion. They're not going to hell if they don't get it. But I just tend to just try to focus, and any couples counselor will tell you this, is like your partner is your partner. They do what they're going to do. If you want them to change, start with yourself. And so I just try to focus on that, and I try to remember that it's probably my fault anyway.

14:28I'm probably contributing to the thing plenty, and so I'm going to focus on that. Yes, sometimes there's going to be unreconcilable differences. There's going to be totally different worldviews and those worldviews just cannot be in the same house. But I think for the most part, we try to focus on ourselves. And there is some beautiful history between say like Marcus Aurelius and his brother, his adopted stepbrother, Lucius Ferris, who's the opposite. But what Marcus says in Debts and Lessons, he goes, you know, what I loved about my brother who from what we know is like, sure, not the best. He goes, I loved how his character helped me improve my own.

15:10Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Hi, Ryan. Oh, a little short here. I, as a person who's found a lot of healing and recovery in the 12-step rooms, I was very surprised to see you write about it in both Stillness is the Key and Discipline is Destiny. So I'm curious as to like how that came about or why you were inspired to do that. Because the other, the only other one I found was Russell Brand's recovery. Yeah. I would say I'm like recovery adjacent. I certainly, I relate to all the impulses and the problems. I've just thankfully never ended up that far. Right. And I would actually credit stoicism with that, sort of discovering it early.

15:59Like, there's not a thing that I cannot get addicted to. And sort of being very aware of that, I sort of have been very interested in how those groups function, what they teach, how they work, what are the sort of general lessons that apply to all of us. and I mean the serenity prayer is about as good of encapsulation as you can get to stoicism as there is and what I think so fascinating when do you think the serenity prayer was created put a year on it there's a different version of it that like it hits even harder it's uh like higher power grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change the courage to change the one I can and the wisdom to know that one is me like when I heard that one I was like oh that's stoicism.

16:51Totally. It feels like this thing that's always been with us and it was jotted off like in the 1950s. And you just go, wow, okay. There's always new ways to repackage and define these very old timeless ideas. And so, yeah, that's where that comes from for me. Well, thank you. Thank you. Keep working it. To be out there too. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Hi Ryan. Hi. Hi. I actually brought your book too so if you sign later. All right. My question kind of go back to the question Guy asked you earlier about if you had a bad day how what are the tools that you like gravitate towards to solve that because myself I'm I pretty much it is what it is mind over matter to have a person but then bad days still affect you a lot at the end of the week you get exhausted so how do you go back and reset yourself i'd love to hear your answer and i have uh i have never had a bad day that was made worse by exercising so whenever i'm like having a shitty day it's going sideways i'm struggling with something i go for a run i go for a swim or I ride my bike or the very least I just like go for a walk.

18:12It doesn't magically solve the problem, but it changes who I am in relation to that problem. It turns down the volume on that thing. So, you know, usually like when I'm having a bad day or I'm struggling with something, it's because like things are not going right or I'm not doing things right, right? And so I find that it's hard for me to screw up working out, right? pushing myself. Like I, I leave my house to go for a run. I come back, you know? Um, I, I, I, I say I'm gonna go to the gym for an hour. Like I'm there. Right. And, and so I, I have found that like, that is like, you know, in meditation, you have like a mantra, like a thing you return to that kind of brings you back to center.

18:57That's always been that for me is I want to do that. And so I, I schedule it in the day where I, you know, I intend to do it every day, but sometimes I'm like okay we're moving this up you know this this needs to happen now and and I again it doesn't magically uh erase everything but it does tend to make it brings me to a better place to then deal with that thing and then yeah as you said let's say a crappy day is a crappy week but then I look back on the week and I go oh you know I worked out every day this week I go well it wasn't terrible you know it wasn't a complete waste I didn't completely fall apart.

19:34I did some good thing every day. I had something to show for showing up every day. Yeah, there is such a clear connection between physical activity and its impact, obviously, on our mental health. And it's not always easy. And bad days happen even when we do that. But that has an enormous impact. You may be familiar with David Steindl Rest, who is a priest. And Father David Stenner-Rast, he's written a book and he gave a beautiful TED Talk many years ago. And he said, you know, every single day is a new beginning. And I love that concept. And of course we can't always think that way. But it's a really sort of grounding notion idea that we're sort of gifted another chance every 24 hours.

20:27And I love that idea. It doesn't obviously solve everything, but sometimes it has like a micro mitigation effect on those really rough days. Thank you.

20:43Hey, I'm a big fan, Ryan. So my question is, earlier you were talking about how your publishers were iffy about your idea on stoicism. So how did you overcome that fear and why did you decide to do it? yeah I mean one of the things I think uh you can always tell yourself is well let's let's let's sketch out the worst case scenario here right um you have this idea for a book and you send it to your publisher and they say no right that's the worst case scenario right and it's not that bad uh worst case scenario is I have to publish it myself the worst case scenario is I try again later, right? Like it, it, it was not, the downside was very low and the upside was high.

21:33Now I kind of got a, sometimes you get a clear yes or a clear no. I got what they sometimes call in publishing, like a kiss off advance, which is like, what's, what, what can we offer you? That's like, maybe they'll say no. Right. You know, um, as I asked my editor, uh, many years later, I said, you know, what were you hoping I would say? And they were, they, they said, we were hoping maybe you do this book, get it out of your system, and then go back to writing marketing books, which thankfully didn't happen. But realizing that there wasn't a sort of, they weren't telling me yes or no. They were just telling me like, we're not super excited about it.

22:09And so I had to create my sort of my own excitement, my own driving. And then I do think it also helps. Managing expectations is always great, right? So they didn't think it would be huge. I didn't think it would be huge. When it came out, it wasn't huge. I think it sold 3 ,500 copies its first week, which wasn't enough to hit a bestseller list. And it wasn't a conclusive failure or success. And so it just kind of did what it did. And then I went to work on the next thing. So sometimes, you know, when we're thinking like, oh, it must be really scary to do it. It's more like just indifference you know that you're really up against which is not that much of an opponent like indifference i mean welcome to life most people are indifferent to most people and things and and so just realizing it wasn't this thing i had to sweat it's just the thing i would try and that that's that's where i took it all right thank you

23:17how you guys doing uh first i want to say that um i think i can speak for almost everyone in this room that your books have changed my life and people in this room. But I wanted to ask you, I think there's a quote by Marcus Aurelius along the lines of, no person crosses the same river twice. What stoic philosophy, what stoic ideas have you came across once and then had a totally different opinion on later? So that's actually from Heraclitus, who Marcus Aurelius quotes a bunch of meditations and and the idea is yeah we're not only do we not step in the same river twice because the river's changing but we're also changing the idea being that you know um sure meditations is 2 000 years old uh but and and has remained unchanged for 2 000 years and yet each successive generation takes something new or different from it and we were talking about this at dinner like i what i took from meditations when i was 19 versus what i took from it yesterday these are different things but you know understanding meditations as effectively a plague book a book written during a plague is a totally different lens on marcus and stoicism and the message of the book that i think would have been impossible for me growing up where i've grown up and how life has been in America since I've read meditations up until three years ago exactly, right?

24:52When COVID happens and you are forced to, you are come face to face with things that are happening and behaviors people are doing that would have been intimately familiar to Marcus and were driving and changing what he was writing about, suddenly you understand him and it and yourself in a new way. And so it is important, I think, and this is one of the ideas behind the Daily Stoke, so you don't just read a thing once, but you come back to it over and over again, and you read it. I think when I look at your book, I think of that, like, the beginning entrepreneur reading your book is going to get something very different than that same entrepreneur reading that same book as a late, the founder or owner of a late stage company because a whole bunch of stuff went over their head because they didn't even know what they didn't know about this.

25:49They weren't interested in some lesson from a late-stage founder because that was incomprehensible from their position. And I think you can apply that same principle to music and to novels and to other pieces of art that we're exposed to at different times in our life and how it impacts us depending on the context, the contextual perspective. You mentioned this idea earlier. I didn't know it. It is remarkable that when Marcus Aurelius is writing meditations, the thing that everybody around him is talking about all the time is a plague. Yes. For most of that time. It's 15 years. That's what's dominating people's brains.

26:31He probably dies of it. He probably dies of it.

26:39and realizing that, yeah, this was the seminal event of his life. And so it's remarkable, one, that, you know, we miss this, but also that he doesn't talk about it that much because he's focused interior. Yeah, it's very strange. It's incredible, yeah. Great question. Thank you. Thank you.

27:01Hi, Ryan. I'm a big fan of yours. Guy, love the podcast. so Ryan my question for you is and they're all great books don't get me wrong but if you had to go back and rewrite one which one would it be and why? To rewrite one I'd probably rewrite trust me I'm lying just because I wrote that when I was so young and also I've seen the legacy that that book has gone Did you leave some good stuff out of that? Or maybe I wouldn't publish it at all but yeah I don't know it's I've also had the pleasure slash horror of doing new editions of a book that I wrote when I was 24, which is not an experience I would wish on anyone.

27:42Speaking of never stepping in the same river twice, like when you write a book, you work on a thing, that's who you are. And that's what you think to be true. And there's this part of you that doesn't think you are putting this down for all you are, cementing this in place in time if you could change it if you knew what you would know in the future you would do things differently but you don't that's the tragedy of the human experience and sorry just quickly do you have any update on Robert's new book because I can't ask him it's in the works as always he's always working on it you got a sneak peek?

28:16I've read pieces of it it's very very good some of the sections in Robert's books are almost as long as my entire book So we're operating very different universes. Thanks so much, Troy. Thanks, guys. Cheers. Thank you.

28:32Hey, Ryan. Hi. Sophia, I've met you a couple places. So, a couple things. When I think about how Robert Greene has changed my life and talked about mastery and talked about going back to when you were a young person and what did you want to do, you know, and going back and looking at that. Your life's task. Your life's task, your purpose. Yes. That was life-changing for me, and along with many other things he says. And when you were speaking earlier and you were talking about when you first read Meditations and then you went and pitched it, but you knew. You said, I knew that this was going to work.

29:15And I think that's what you inspire in me in your storytelling. It's like I hear the things you say, And I'm like, I knew that. I knew that. I knew that. So it's very intuitive for me. Yeah. So, but seeing you here in San Francisco, I grew up here. Yeah. I work here. I don't live here anymore. But coming back after the pandemic and seeing what has happened and watching from a distance what took place in our pandemic. Sure. I wonder if you would think about picking maybe a man and a woman in this period who killed it. Oh, who's done well? Who's done well, who handled it like a stoic, discipline, kindness, you know, courage and temperance all throughout it all.

30:07Because I've seen some of them, but I'd be curious. You don't have to answer right now. Okay. Think about it. All right, I will. That's a great question. Thank you. See you later.

30:25You hear that? That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds. No alerts. No distractions. And no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota Trucks.

30:57Hey, Ryan. Hi. You've done a lot of great work. I enjoyed our conversations on several occasions. Thank you. Based off of a lot of what you said, you actually reminded me to speak on another topic, which is a quote from Maslow. And he said that our only rival is our own potentialities and our only failure is not living up to our own possibilities. And in this sense, every man can be a king and therefore should be treated as a king. And I actually was thinking about mentioning an excerpt from Sun Tzu who speaks about how when a warlock branch attacks a powerful state, his generalship shows itself by balking the enemy's forces.

31:37And basically it goes on to say, hence, he does not strive to ally himself with all and sundry nor does he foster the power of other states he carries out his own secret designs and is able to capture their cities and over the other's kingdoms by keeping his antagonist in awe that sort of falls in line to a lot of what you were saying which is the original antithesis of my point which was about how through the philosophy that you've sort of like shown to me through your worldview about how i end up writing about how i focus on only what i control and to not feel any sense of accomplishment in what i'm doing and like just as a rationalization and similar like vein with what marcus realis was speaking about i was speaking like saying like do you praise yourself for the action of eating when the inevitable result is that you'll be full and even still you don't control the food on your plate only the relentless pursuit of it and the hunt in and of itself is what is there because you don't fundamentally care about the food we only eat the food because we need it to survive like the food doesn't mean anything once we finish eating then we're done like once we finish drinking, we slick our thirst, we turn it back to the well.

32:36It doesn't matter fundamentally. And a bit for Robert as well, too, was in there I also wrote about how if you're a baker baking cake, you forge all the materials you get together, then the power goes out. The goods spoil. We own everything in trust. We don't actually control any of that stuff. And if you can't bake the cake, even though you have all the qualifications and skills to do it, does that make you anything less of a baker? So that's what I was kind of following on. I love it. Thank you. Yeah, I just wanted your comments on that, because you weren't able to get some of your books published or the way you wanted them to?

33:08How do you sort of think about that? Because I don't really know what to kind of ignore and not ignore. And I just want to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, it's great. Thank you. Thank you so much. What I try to focus on when I work is how can the success or failure of the project be as most rooted on me as possible? So it comes to how you define what that success is. Is it the number of listeners? Is it the number of downloads? Is it the number of sales? Is it where it doesn't hit on a list? Or is it that you did something that was interesting to you, pleasurable to do as you were doing it, meaningful to you as you were doing it?

33:47Did you do what you set out to accomplish? And then the things that happen after are extra as opposed to something you are waiting and hoping breaks your way. Great question. All right, let's see you next. Thank you. I'm trying to get through everyone. Thank you. Good evening. I'm Charlotte, and I'm so delighted to be here. So thankful for the good energy in the room with you two and for everyone. Since you probably believe in the power of thought, before I share my question, would it be possible to send some good energy to Mr. Robert Green? Sure. Okay, let's do it. Do you know if he's northeast, south, or west from us?

34:27I do not. Okay, well, let's just everyone imagine you know him. You can imagine him in your mind's eye. And let's just think a positive thought that all the healing energy is flowing to this brilliant being.

34:43Beautiful. Thank you. Okay. Yes, what's your question? My question is your thoughts on vegetarianism. So up until 1850, people who were vegetarians were called Pythagoreans. in Plato's Republic. He talks about how eating animals causes more greed, more lust, etc. And all the great thinkers across time, in my view, from Emerson to Tolstoy to Kafka, spoke about being vegetarian. So I'm just curious if you think that vegetarianism and kind relationship to animals may be part of the way forward as we create a more loving humanity. Thank you. Thank you. I aspire to be a vegetarian. I really do. I do eat some meat, so I sympathize and tend to agree with you, actually.

35:38Yes. The Stoics have this idea of you care first about yourself, then you care about the people around you, people who are like you. You have these circles of concern, and the idea is about bringing the outer concerns inward. And I interviewed Peter Singer recently and we talked about this. The idea, I think, ultimately is to include as many beings, not just animals, but plants and the environment itself. How do you sort of have this positive impact on as many different people and things as possible? So like you, I don't fully aspire to be a vegetarian, but I understand it. I see it as part of the diet.

36:20I'm not an expert, so I'm not going to opine about what one should be eating or not eating. But I live on a cattle ranch, so I'm probably not the right person to answer this one. But thank you very much. Thank you. We have, we don't, we have to end this in a few minutes because the theater, of course, the folks who work here need to go home. So we're not going to be able to get to everyone there, I'm sorry, will probably only be able to take three more questions and I'm sorry about that. Hey, Ryan. Hi. I'll keep it brief. Okay. What's one piece of advice you know now that you wish you could tell your younger self when you started off your writing career?

37:06Great question. Yes. It's going to take longer than you think. It's going to take longer than And you think there's a great law. It's like it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take this law into account. It's going to take longer than you think. The Obstacles Away came out in, I think it took six years to hit a bestseller list, something like that. If you had told me that when I put it out, I'm not sure I could have, I'm not sure I would have accepted that or how that would have landed with me. But it takes longer to get good at it. It takes longer for people to discover the stuff.

37:40It just, it takes way longer than whatever timeframe you're capable of at that time. And yeah, that's what, that's what I said. How old are you, by the way, if you mind? 21. 21. I'm going to give you, I'm 48. I'm going to give you the piece of advice I would have given myself when I was 21, which is a version of dance like no one's watching, which is don't limit yourself. Try things, put yourself out there, be open to new experiences and don't, don't ever be too cool to do something because that's going to that's a great answer thank you thank you first off i love this shirt thank you um so my question is do you think the practice of stoicism is more a matter of the mind or of the heart insofar as like what would you say to a student of stoicism when they encounter more emotionally charged matters like heartbreak loss of a friend that kind of thing.

38:36Yeah. Yeah. I think the most beautiful writing that Seneca did, he wrote these four essays that are called his consolations and they're him consoling people who have lost someone. In one case, it's his mother who lost him. He's been, has been exiled. And so I think this idea of the Stoics is having no emotions, being emotionless, having no heart, it totally misses it. It's about not being overwhelmed and ruled by or destroyed by those emotions, but it's certainly not stuffing them down and pretending they don't exist. So, you know, sometimes it's about, you know, using the minds to work through and get, understand, well, here's why you're feeling this way.

39:20This way is not rational. This isn't a good way to feel. And then I think in other times, you know, you've got it all perfectly worked out in your head and the heart needs to come and overwhelm that and be like, it's, you know, it's more complicated. There are people involved. So I think it's like we're talking about with formlessness. It's sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

39:44So whatever I've learned about Ryan is like about 19 year old cool kid came across this stoicism and just made it his life. I don't think anyone would have said cool kid, but okay. So how was Ryan before he turned 19 and how it influenced all his journey from that point? And what really happened at that point in life that just turned everything around? Well, I wish Robert was here because he knew me then. So he could give you an answer. I was reading. So I got Marcus Rios when I was in college. So I was reading it in my college apartment. I guess, again, that I'm reading some obscure school of ancient philosophy by myself in my college apartment goes to the not cool kid idea for sure.

40:35I don't know. I think what struck me about the Stoics was what I was really looking for, which I think a lot of young men and women are looking for today, but have always looked for throughout history, which is like, how am I supposed to be? What should I do? What should I not do? I was looking for what I think ancient philosophy is at its best, which is a guide to the good life. And that's what I have tried to articulate and explain in my books, is to take that guide and make it as accessible and interesting and practical as I can for people. I would add that knowing a little bit about your life, that you were a reader.

41:17You grew up as a reader and a family of readers and reading also exposed you to infinite number of ideas. And that gave you this opportunity to be exposed to this book that you may not otherwise have been exposed to. Totally. That was the question I like to ask. What should I read? What should I read? What should I read? And, you know, I asked the question enough times that I found the book I should be reading. And that's a discipline and practice that people can choose. For sure. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, two more. We got to just do two more, guys. Hi, Ryan. Hi, Guy. So I have a quote by Confucius.

41:54It's one of my favorites. It goes, to keep the old warm and to provide understanding of the new is to call yourself a teacher. And you and Robert and Guy, it reminds me of that every time I read it. Thank you. And you've inspired me to be a teacher, and I want to do the same, keep that chain going throughout history. You know, we just hand it down to the next generation. what's your one tip to be an effective teacher and to keep the old warm as when i'm a teacher i'm a little bit talking down yeah two people so i think uh what i learned i'll give you what i learned from robert which is that you show you don't tell so the reason robert writes in stories is the same reason that jesus spoke in parables it's the same reason lincoln told stories which is that it is the most disarming and effective and interesting way to deliver information to people.

42:49And I think, you know, you do this in the podcast, you get people to tell their stories, you don't have, here's the 16 tips, you go listen to this story, and then people take things out of it. And I think listening to stories and telling stories is the oldest and most effective way to deliver information and for some reason it remains the least utilized. And that's what I try to do in my books and that's what I think all the things I like all have in common. So they're great stories. I think the best teachers never cease to be students. It sounds like a cliche, but it's true. I teach younger people about the craft of what I do, but I'm also learning from them all the time and learning from other sources, trying to get better at what I do because that makes me better as a transmitter of information.

43:37So that would be my advice. Never cease to be a student. Thank you. I'll put those both into action. Thank you. All right. Last one. Last one, guys. I'm sorry. One more. One more. Yes. One more, yeah. As I said. So considering, first, Ryan, obstacles away, change my life. Thank you. Considering Trust for Me Online, the media landscape, what can we do? It's just driving me nuts. like we're believing lies, like half the population is? Yeah, I would say everything I was talking about in that book, it's worse in most ways. But what I think, the couple things that I think are interesting or encouraging to me, I think we live now in a sort of a subscription economy where people actually subscribe to things, which is one of the main things I was talking about in the book, the sort of disintermediation of media is what created the sort of endless war for attention and clickbait and all that.

44:35And then I think, you know, podcasting as a medium, which was really not much of a thing in 2011 when I was writing the book, you know, when you sit down, you listen to someone's story for two hours, two and a half hours, or you record for two and a half hours and edit it down to an hour, like a long form conversational exploration. There's something I think very powerful about podcasts that are the opposite of most of the negative trends of today's media, which is shortness, virality, simplicity,

45:12dehumanizing people. I think podcasts tilt us somewhat back in the right direction. And I think That's a positive thing. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Before we go, one last question. I have. Just him. Just him. He's 14 on permission. Oh, great. All right. All right. All right. We got it. Hello, Jonathan. Hi. In our, I'll make this quick, I swear. In our increasingly weakening and over-emotional societies, what are the best stoic practices to avoid getting sucked into, like, Twitter wars and other, like, things that are constantly vying for our attention through you know news is just one big uh especially our government uses fear and other emotions to control populations and what are the best practices to avoid um getting suckered into are you sure you're 14 yes i swear um no it's it's a it's a great question i think first off just oh being aware that this thing is not your friend necessarily that we, I think, having kind of an adversarial relationship with the overwhelming amount of information that's out there that you don't have to consume at all.

46:23I just try to go towards sources of information that are perennial. So I think books, you know, I think you can learn lots of new things from very old books, right? And chances are, if they've been relevant or true for a thousand years, you know, there's chance it's going to be relevant for at least a few more. And so I think, you know, deciding that where you're going to get the bulk of your information or what's the primary lens by which you're going to come to understand the world and choosing to do that through more perennial sources as opposed to the latest breaking real time is just a choice you have to make as an individual and that's the choice that I make great question thank you Brian before we go one last question for you what is something that everybody in this crowd, everybody listening could do one simple thing they could do today or tomorrow to make their life just a little bit better going to what we were just talking about with media and information, I would say a real easy one, don't sleep with your phone in your bedroom.

47:44Leave it in the kitchen, in the other room, whatever. Don't charge it next to your bed. Don't let it be the last thing that you touch or look at before you go to sleep. And by definition, it won't be the first thing that you touch when you wake up and sort of creating some very hard, if not artificial boundaries between you and the kinds of craziness and chaos and all of that is one of the best decisions that I've ever made. I'm going to add one thing to that. Okay. The first thing you should do every morning is drink a big glass of water. I promise you it's going to have a massive impact in your day.

48:27All right. With that, I wanted to thank all of you for coming out tonight. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for saving us. It's been so fun. Brian Holiday, everybody. Thank you.

48:48Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoic podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoic store. You can get them personalized. You can get them sent to a friend. The obstacle is the way. You go as the enemy. Stillness is the key. The leather-bound edition of The Daily Stoic. We have them all in The Daily Stoic store, which you can check out at store.dailystoic.com.

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