Ryan Holiday And Robert Greene Talk Strategy And Philosophy For Turbulent Times

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1:52Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic Podcast. On Sundays, we take a deeper dive into these ancient topics with excerpts from the Stoic texts, audiobooks that we like here or recommend here at Daily Stoic, and other long-form wisdom that you can chew on on this relaxing weekend. We hope this helps shape your understanding of this philosophy, and most importantly, that you're able to apply it to your actual life. Thank you for listening.

2:35Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to a weekend episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I am recording this from my closet in Texas. I'm not at the office today. and although I am in Texas now, the episode I am bringing you came from Los Angeles, where I just spent the last month or so with my family, saw some relatives, saw some old friends. The kids went to summer camp. We escaped the heat. It was an awesome trip. Got a lot of editing and writing done, but most importantly, I got to drive over and see one of my favorite people in the entire world, someone who's changed my life in so many ways, the one and only Robert Greene.

3:15Brought back some memories. I used to drive over to Robert Greene's house when I lived in Los Angeles many years ago, and I'm picking up a book or dropping off a book or some papers, something he had me research or do, and then I might hopefully get a minute or two to ask him a couple questions, ask him for some advice. And that's sort of what today's episode is. He and I sat down and talked for about 30 minutes about stoicism, about philosophy, about mastery, about slowing down, some questions that were just on the top of my mind when we sat down on his back porch. But actually, the reason I headed over there, the reason we wanted to chat is that he and I are going to be doing two live events together, September 19th in Los Angeles, September 21st in Seattle.

3:59You can see Robert Green and I on stage in conversation. You can ask us questions. There's some VIP tickets if you want to have a sign a book or whatever, come to the meet and greet. Anyways, always a treat to talk to Robert. We wanted to prep a little bit. We wanted to record some stuff for coming up for that. And I wanted to tell you that you can come and see us. You can grab the tickets. I'll link to it in today's show notes, or you can just go to ryanholiday.net slash tour. And I think the tickets are through Ticketmaster. So you can also just go to Ticketmaster and search Ryan Holiday, Robert Green.

4:32That's the 19th of September in LA, 21st of September in Seattle. You may have listened to the conversation I did with Guy Raz in San Francisco. That was supposed to be with Robert. And then he got really sick. So we had to cancel and reschedule. We added this LA date. And then I wanted to do this little conversation. I'm bringing that to you now. I hope you enjoy. And then I hope to see you in Seattle and Los Angeles in September. And I'll just leave it to me and Robert talking in Los Angeles about a week ago. Enjoy.

5:18I was thinking the most stoic law of power is always say less than necessary. Because of the discipline and the self-control and then also the indifference to what other people say or think. So always saying less than necessary, not needing to prove someone else wrong, not needing to explain yourself, just sort of being contained with who you are and not worrying about anything else. Yeah, that's part of it. There's also the law about never win through argument. It's about demonstrating your ideas and not arguing. The self-discipline ones are that. despise the free lunch and in victory know when to stop.

6:12Like, don't go past the mark that you aimed for? Yeah. It feels like actually, like, almost all the laws of power are in some way rooted in some kind of self-discipline. Yeah. Yeah. And the idea that, I think it was Seneca, you said, no one is fit to rule who is not first master of themselves. Yeah. Like you first have to have power over you for you to be able to play the game of power in some way. Yeah, I agree with that. But there's some that are a little bit more than others. But yeah, you can look at each one of them that way. Because in the introduction I make it clear that the main law is to have power over yourself.

6:58I mean yeah it doesn't matter if you are there's a Seneca I think he was talking about Marius the Roman general said Marius commanded armies but ambition commanded Marius so like if you're if you're not ultimately in command of yourself your power over others or over the world won't last very long that's right yeah I mean look at Vladimir Putin but we don't know really how long he's going to last the game he's playing. He seemed to be someone who had mastery over himself, so cool and icy, but it's revealed that he doesn't. And it's kind of going to be his undoing. Does having command over other people and over things for too long, does it maybe even atrophy or command?

7:47It makes it harder to be in command of yourself? Well, it does in the sense of... Are we recording?

7:59Yeah, in the sense of your ability to make the right decisions depends on knowing the situation kind of in a John Boyd sort of sense. and when you have power and it accumulates and time goes by, you start isolating yourself from that kind of OODA loop type situation and you start listening to what other people are saying about you. You become more inside your own little tower and you have less access to the world and to information and your decisions start to become delusional to think it's what's happening. Yeah, I think in the 33 strategies of war you talk about how you have to take to reality like a spider in its web.

8:48And the longer you are powerful or important or people are telling you you're amazing, the harder it is to keep your grasp on reality because you don't know what's real. Because people are deceiving you and you're deceiving yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So, God, I love it when people quote back my own book to me. I don't even remember what I said. sounds good yeah um your your heightened sensitivity to your surroundings well that the main law there is don't build fortresses yes um your heightened sensitivity to people and to what's going on around you is your only salvation and um you know power creates this dynamic that generally tends to isolate you and so you know in in the consulting that i've done the main thing that happens to people with power is they kind of sense that something isn't going right things aren't quite how they want them all right let me ask robert maybe what what could help yeah and then i try and give them advice but they don't want to listen because it's not just that other people do it but they're getting enclosed in a certain way of thinking doing things so they're not open to learning anymore they don't have that kind of humility that kind of Socratic idea that I don't know what I know so in each step of the way you have to kind of step back and say am I really connecting to what's going on around me or am I giving in to the version that people are feeding me that my desires are kind of coloring things and that ability to step back is so difficult when you're on that drug of attention well yeah you think about putin in the long table that he sits at that's like a that is a a fortress isn't necessarily around you it could be you're inside but the fortress is the distance between you and the other people or the you and the unpleasant facts on the ground yeah I mean it's not like an overnight thing it's not like he suddenly became isolated it was probably a process of building up yeah of having so many kind of creating so many enemies and having paranoia and fear about the loyalty of those around him and some small levels of betrayal and anxiety and then that kind of it can happen to you it happens to me it happens to all of us we know that feeling right that kind of anxiety and so you your tendency is to retreat inside of yourself and you're not even aware of it happening i'm editing the book that i'm working on now and i've noticed this trend it might be true for you also and i wonder how you think about it which is each one of my books is getting longer than the last book and i tell me about it and so you're not at my level yet we just thank god I don't know if I could survive.

11:56I certainly couldn't publish as much as I write. If I, your books are like, one of your books is like four of my books, I think. So that's why it takes longer. No, I mean, I think it's a different level of mastery, but I guess what I'm saying is like, because I'm comparing it against my own books, not other people's books, but I'm, I, it's either I'm getting better in the sense that I'm being I'm I'm being more accurate more nuanced you know capturing everything or I'm getting more self-indulgent so it could be either it could be the fortress around myself like because I've been successful because the editor the publisher will let me do what I want because I think I know what the audience wants I'm getting more and more long-winded or actually my standards are getting higher and that tension is something I think about that's that's very important but the answer is you'll never know the answer inside your head the answer will be the reader the world the world will judge that sure so um because if you get self-indulgent and the book reads kind of long I mean that's but that's not going to happen to you because you've acquired the skill of reading your own work and sensing things that aren't necessary.

13:12That's what I've been doing the last month. I had to cut like 10 ,000 words, which was so painful. It's the worst. I was trying to tell myself the fact that it's painful and I'm doing it is a very positive sign. But sometimes you cut and you make things worse. True. Because you give a certain kind of glibness to it. That's what I'm worried about. You have ideas, but they're not backed up. They're not defended. They're not illustrated. And you leave the reader going, that's interesting, but I don't understand it. And a sentence extra would kind of explain it. Or assumes facts, not an evidence. Yeah, that's why I'm worried about that.

13:49I'd rather someone say he repeats himself a little too much than he didn't make the case. Yeah. You know, editors and publishers, they go crazy over repetition. They don't understand. Readers don't care. Most people don't read an entire book in a day. They read it over the course of 10 days a month, two months. They're not noticing. Yeah, there can be things that are repeating. But sometimes the repetition is nuanced. It's different. It's not repeating the same thing. I don't know. Yeah, but even probably a self-indulgent, long-winded person is never considering whether they're self-indulgent or long-winded.

14:35So even thinking about it is probably a good sign. At least that's how I reassure myself. Exactly, exactly. You're aware of the potential problem. You know, like, this is going to sound ego, and ego is the enemy. But, you know, human nature is 580 pages, and the laws of power is like 420, I think. it lost human nature has sold better than the 48 loss of power in the same amount of time really yeah we're like over 800 000 at this point that's incredible and it's a 580 page of course a lot of over audio but over a lot less sexy topic yeah you know what which is probably even more of a sign that it's like to be able to move almost a million copies of a book that doesn't necessarily tell people what they want to hear exactly different feet exactly of course it's a little bit of a bias there because I built up an audience.

15:31But still, you know, you have to get over this idea that, well, of course, a lot of people are buying, getting an audio and then they see, I don't know how many hours, it doesn't say the same thing as 580 pages, but. Discipline's Destiny is the fastest selling of all my books too, which is a very weird thing. Like in most domains, you're, you peak and then you decline. what's cool about writing and I think it's that form of mastery is that it is one of the few professions that you can do for a very long time and get better at it as you get older most things you get worse at like what well sports science right I think in in mastery don't you say like most scientists make their discoveries in their 20s yeah it's all down the hill from there yeah I think it's even before not to get too controversial but most scientists don't win Nobel Prizes after they get married.

16:26Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I said, it's not good for you and I. But, yeah, and then, you know, musicians don't usually, they usually peak out at the great chess players. Yeah, how can you write your best work when you're 20? It's crazy. Yeah. Well, whose best work would be that? Well, just so many huge albums are band's first albums when they're so young. They're not even at their peak musically, but they're at their peak expressively and emotionally. Well, that's the power of music, and that's why. I mean, there are composers, not rock stars, who get better with age. Yeah, that could be more the market than the objective quality of the work.

17:10Yeah. I mean, personally, I could say that the 48 Laws of Power, I was younger, I was more energetic, and it just spilled out of me. and it has that visceral appeal. And then I would say, but as I got older, I've kind of learned more. Yeah. And I've kind of made more nuanced arguments. Now, that could be me justifying my own aging and decreptitude and putting a little sauce on it. Or there could be some reality to it. You know, as I get older, I come to this idea of continually reminding myself that I don't know. I've been reading a fair amount of Plato lately. and soccer is spinning through my head a lot.

17:53But this idea of you think you know something, but you really don't know at all. Your knowledge of an event or what you think the world is, it's just like the summit hitting the surface. And the mind doesn't, it's very hard to realize that. And so the humility of saying, I don't really know the answer here, and maybe I kind of missed the mark, or I've got a thing. I'm constantly going through it as I'm writing now. You know, that idea sounds exciting, but it's not really true. And re-examine it, re-examine it. There's a physicist, John Wheeler. He's like the inventor. Sure. His line is, as the island of knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of ignorance.

18:41Yeah. And so you're either understanding that you're learning more or your understanding that you're bumping in to what you don't know. Those are simultaneous expansions. Yeah. Yeah, I'm bumping into a lot of shoreline lately. Well, and also what I think ego fundamentally is, is ego is like, look how big the island is. And then humility and wisdom is like, look how big the shoreline is. And which one are you, are you looking backwards at what you've learned? Are you looking forwards at what you're bumping into that you don't know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you and I are going to be doing two talks in September.

19:22Are we? Really? Yes, yes, hopefully. Okay. One here in Los Angeles and one in Seattle. Yeah. Very exciting. I actually, it's funny when we were trying to think of the, I think you and I were thinking of much more of a discussion and they were thinking, well, what are you going to tell people? But I think actually, if you think about things more as a discussion, you learn more. Yeah, yeah. I like to keep things a little bit open-ended. And I've noticed myself that the times I think I understand that I had the most control, I've written everything out and organized it. I do the worst jobs. But if I kind of keep my mind open in the moment and just...

20:03We had a good time when we did that in Los Angeles before. Yeah, we did one here, the LA Live Talks, I think. Yeah, we didn't prepare for that. No, we didn't. Not that we're not going to prepare or that we're just winging it, but it'll be September 19th in LA and then it'll be September 21st in Seattle yeah and I think we're talking power mastery strategy philosophy all of ego yes all into the bucket of life how to get better at life yeah so how do you get better at life Ryan in a nutshell you ever have people ask you that in interviews well they go so you just spent all these years working on this but tell me about it in a couple sentences.

20:46And I go, if I could do that, I just wouldn't have written a book. If I could have written one to two sentences that would explain everything I thought about this, I would have stopped there. Right. Right. But fortunately you haven't. Fortunately or unfortunately. And then there is also this sense that, like, years later after you finish, you're like, that's what that book's about. Like, I wrote Ego's the Enemy, and I thought a lot about ego and humility. And only after the book was out and published did the Aristotelian meme in the middle hit me, which is confidence. So sometimes you have to sit and think and meditate on the thing for many, many years before you get it.

21:32So that's actually when I'm trying to just generally go slower at everything that I do. Oh, really? Yeah. Because it's easy for me to go fast. So instead of one year to write a book, you're going to take like 14 months or something. Well, I read this interview with Joyce Carol Oates, and she was saying when she finishes a novel, she puts it in a drawer for a year before she edits it. Oh. So she has just a year of... Wow. And that's interesting. And apparently Lincoln did this with the Gettysburg, or with the Emancipation Proclamation. Like, some people think he sat on it for political and strategic reasons, which he did, and that took a lot of discipline and patience.

22:09But also he was messing with the language the whole time. You know, this is the part of the shoreline and the ocean metaphor. So when I have that thought, you go, yeah, that's interesting. I like that idea. But then the other part of me goes, I'm not so sure about that. Like you write something, you're in a mood, you're in the spirit. You have an idea that kind of lives inside of you. And you look at it a year later and you go, what the hell was I thinking? Now that's not right. And you start messing your own mind up. That's true. In Zen, they call it putting a head on top of a head, right? So you're overthinking things.

22:48Sure. And so I don't know if a year is the right thing. I would say maybe like a month. I'm just trying to give it more space. Although you, actually you told me this, my research methodology, which is, you said you read a book. You mark all the pages up, but then you let it sit for a little bit before you go back through and do your notes. Because then you come back and you're like, I marked that, but I don't actually care about that. I don't actually agree with that. So the letting it sit. It's like when you put dishes in the sink and you tell yourself that you're letting it soak before you put it in the dishwasher.

23:20You've got to let it soak. Yeah. Oh, I'm definitely in favor of that. And I'm definitely in favor of. So I write it. Now, my extremely laborious, boring process. It takes me four months to get to a first draft, which is where I'm at now, three months. and now I'm going back to the original story in the chapter going what? that's really odd so I'm giving myself a three month gap anyway just by my horrifying process that I go through and those three months really make a difference I think it's easy to hit in some ways it depends some people are perfectionists and they need to cultivate the muscle of hitting publish and then other people are eager and enthusiastic and passionate and so their impulse is to hit publish and they have to learn how to back off and I think I'm more the second one You've always been that way?

24:15I think so, yeah, in school I would always like turn in a test and be like, are you sure you're done? And then you would tell yourself that They would be like, are you sure you're done? And then I'd get it back and I'd have invariably made a bunch of sloppy mistakes So you learned the hard way, it's not like your natural instinct I didn't really, I'm still learning it but I am trying to slow down So this book I'm taking longer than I've taken on any of the other ones Well, you know what the great enemy of any kind of work is in a heart or a book or anything? It's anxiety. Sure. And the anxiety is, first of all, I've got to rush and figure out the answer here.

24:51I'm not going to take the time. My ego wants to get that book out there. I want the attention. I can't wait for it. And it spoils it. and you have to like relax and you have to take the idea that the you know maybe uh if i give it a few more months it's actually going to get better after yet that takes a lot of calming down yeah because your natural impulse is i want people to read this i need to get feedback i want you know you want that that uh that kind of drug rush because writing is a very lonely business it is you know yeah and like publishing as a journalist you're constantly getting feedback social media are constantly getting feedback, but at book you're working on this, you're on this book now like three years, four years.

25:35Three years. Yeah, so, and you've been thinking about it for longer than that. So people are asking you about it, but also there's some part of you that wants to know, am I right? Is it good? Is it, am I doing a good job? And you don't know until people tell you. And so, but to delay that gratification is the hard thing. It's very difficult. It's not, it's not natural.

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27:12So Ryan and I are going to be doing two events that I think you should consider coming to. It'll be very exciting. I'm excited. The first one is Tuesday, September 19, 2023. Let's get the year right. Is it wrong on there? No. At the Wilshire Ebell Theater in Los Angeles, a very nice theater. I've been there. Oh, you have? Yeah. And then in Seattle, Robert Green and I are going to be there on September 21st at the Moore Theater, which I have not been to. I don't know that one either. It's going to be us live in conversation. We're going to talk about books, philosophy, mastery, the ideas in your books, the ideas in my books, and then we're going to take questions.

27:53and we'll sign books and stuff like that so it should be fun and you can buy tickets at ryanholiday.net slash tour and you can also go to let me make sure you can also go to ticketmaster.com to get tickets for either of them and I don't have a link on my website we just made one link we're just putting it everywhere ryanholiday.net slash tour okay Okay. So anyway, Ryan and I have known each other for 17 years. I think that's about right. That's crazy. I know. Yeah. I was, I was, it's getting close to... Half your life. Yes, half my life. How old are you? I'm 36. Oh. Yeah, I think I'm 36. So will I ever catch up?

28:40Will it ever be half your life? I guess so if you do the math. Well, not half my life, but it's approaching the point where I've known you for longer than I've not known you. Like, because I think I met you when I was 20. I was right up the street at the Alcove. That's where we met. I don't think so. That's where you told me you were researching for the 50th line. You needed a research assistant. I thought we met with Neil Strauss where we had lunch with him and Tucker Max. And that was at a restaurant on Sunset Boulevard. I don't think so. I think it was at the Alcove. Really? Yeah. So I met you there before I met you with Tucker and...

29:17No, no, I think Tucker was there, but I don't think I met you with Neil. So that was the second time with Neil. I don't think we've ever gotten together with you. This is all riveting. Yes, well, I have a memory. Really? And, of course, I've had brain damage, so who knows if it's correct, of us at a restaurant on Sunset Boulevard that Neil Strauss kind of... Because you know how he likes to find the perfect place that no one's ever been to? Yes. At a restaurant, a weird restaurant sunset. It was dark, and I remember we walked outside, and Tucker was there, and you and I started talking. That shows you how little I, you know, where my brain is at.

29:54That's what I remember, but... I think it's very unlikely that that would have happened, and I would not have... I think you have not... I'm sure you had dinner with Neil, but I don't think I was there. What I do remember is that I had just gotten a new cell phone. So you asked for my cell phone, do you remember this part? I gave you my cell phone number, but I gave it to you wrong because I didn't have my new number fully memorized. I don't remember this at all. And then you called me to offer me the job or something, but obviously I didn't answer, but someone else answered, and they pretended to be me, and they told you I was sick in the hospital, and I'd been hit by a car, and they strung you along for a period of days about this thing, and then finally you were like, you ended up getting my number from someone else.

30:34But I do think about, one, that's kind of a funny prank to do to a wrong member. But second, I also think it literally could have changed the arc of my entire life. Well, you'd probably be better off. I don't know about that. I'm fairly certain that that's not the case. But I would love to meet the people that did this prank. You know, it's really sad, Ryan, that I don't remember any of this. But you do remember the meeting we didn't have with Nils Strauss.

31:03I have a very vivid memory of walking down Sunset Boulevard and you kind of tagging along and then I started talking to you No, I didn't meet Neil. I met Neil for the first time in 2011 So that was much later Maybe it was just lunch with Tucker and you weren't there. Yeah, I don't think I was there Weird. Very weird. Weird. Okay But we've only done one live event ever before, which is the one we did here in LA like several years ago But we've done podcasts and other things. We have a history of Well, I'm saying that the events we're doing on the 19th and the 21st in September in LA and Seattle It's basically the first time we've ever done something like that.

31:42Or it's very rare that we do Live events. You and I actually either that are open to the public and then we've basically never done them Except the LA Live Talk except the LA.com. And people can look that up. It was a lot of fun. Yes, we posted clips of it a bunch of times. It's doing very well. And so people can come, and then they can be the, if you notice, a bunch of people asked us questions at that event. We answered a bunch of questions. You can be the people that are answering those questions. You can grab tickets at ryanholiday.net slash tour. Or Ticketmaster. What is the Ebbosall Theater?

32:14Where is it? Ebbos. Ebbos. Wilshire Ebel Theater. It's an old theater. Yeah. Look it up. I will. It's an old theater. It's been around. It's on Wilshire Boulevard. It's got some atmosphere. Where is it? Are you seeing it? Yeah, it's on 8th. 8th? Not Wilshire. 8th and Wilshire. Yeah, probably. I used to live right there. Well, hit the images though. I don't have good service on your porch. Oh, okay. Who did you see there? I've seen it. They have plays. Oh. And we saw some theater there years ago. I can't remember just as I can't remember our first meeting at the Albuquerque.

32:59Yes, I would. So when I worked in Beverly Hills, I worked at Wilshire and Doheny. I would drive on 6th, 4th, Wilshire on all the way home and often drop things off at your house. When you were working for Aaron, right? Yes, but then I would have to drop, you know, and you got me fired from that job. We talked about this, right? because I had the 48 laws of power on my desk and and uh the owner of the Italian agency was convinced I was plotting or up to no good but wasn't didn't Aaron have your back he did but then it was a long story but it is interesting to me to think that that was a basic violation of the 48 laws of power to have the 48 laws of power in a conspicuous place that was a mistake but then I went to American Apparel where it was more acceptable yeah yeah but then someone stole that copy off the desk and I am mad about it to the state because that was the first one that I read it had all my notes and stuff in it oh man yeah you could probably auction that just like the Michael Jackson that one's worth a little bit more I would have loved to have bought that one oh yeah do you know who has it uh it was on Sotheby's no I don't I don't I would love to get my hands on it but look if it hadn't been for me you would you would have continued working at that agency and you might have become like a yes of course no it's a very good thing it's a good thing it's a very good thing that it happened okay uh and then it's a good thing that that just shows you insane amount of insecurity it is right so imagine being intimidated by a 20 year old that that that person isn't isn't the head of an agency anymore probably not no i was interviewed a couple days ago by pen you know the organ the writer oh yeah sure about i'm the most banned book in America right now.

34:50Wow. Mostly because of the 48 laws in prisons. The federal prisons, mostly, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, there's some state prisons. And it's also, you're one of the most shoplifted books. Yeah. So you're banned in the sense that a lot of bookstores keep it behind the counter. Yeah. And libraries, too. Yeah. But, you know, the idea that you have to, you think like a prisoner who's in an incredibly weak state of mind physically has no freedom at all that they're going to be able to take a book yeah to be so insecure and that they're going to like use that to like take over the prisoner we better keep that book out yeah it's kind of like your boss yeah yeah no the the the amount of the resistance is usually a sign of either the power that someone has that they don't want to give up or the precariousness of that power.

35:46Like, I'm writing about this with the civil rights movement right now, but the sense that they, Southern politicians were so resistant to black people just registering to vote was both a sign of what they controlled, but then also how fragile and illegal that hold on power was. And so that's a sign. When someone really is against you doing a thing, you should question why that is. Well, it's a sign of incredible weakness and insecurity. Yeah. And oftentimes we think people are so powerful and in control when they ban, they censor. Yeah. It's a sign of insane weakness and insecurity. Yeah. If you can't have a kid in Texas read a book about what it's like to be gay, what does that say about your sense of sexuality and gender?

36:36It says a lot. Yes. I can tell you. Yes. Things I don't even want to repeat here, but it says a lot. Yeah. Right, you're like, and what is it, yes, and also what does it say about the power of books, that a book could do, that they believe that a book could do something like that, could change a person so fundamentally, tells you that the books are very, very powerful. They told me, these two women interviewed me, that there is actually one book that's more banned than my own. It's like a cookbook about ramen. Why? Well, first of all, they don't want prisoners like cooking. Oh, sure. And then second of all, it's got some advice mixed in.

37:16I don't know. Don't ask me why. I've got to get my hands on this ramen book. They're also banning like fantasy books like Harry Potter and things like that. Yeah. I tried to figure that out. I can't figure out why. It's interesting. Well, that has nothing to do with anything. No, it's interesting. It's very interesting. I get notes from prisoners all the time Are your books banned? They're not banned But, well, in a sense they are Because all my books are still in hardcover And you can't have hardcover books in most prisons And the e-books in prisons Is this whole privatized scam Where they're like$900 a book They don't even have the book on there But it's extremely It's also just a way They've subcontracted it out to a third party Who makes tons of money fleecing the prisoners.

38:07But even on the device that they get, there's only a limited number of books they can get. They won't be able to get the 48 balls of power. Well, you can't have hardcover books in prison because they can take the cover and turn it into either a sex toy or a weapon. Wow. My dad worked in jails when I was a kid. He was a police officer. Every time you get promoted, you'd have to go back to working in the jail and he would bring home these books that had all the covers ripped off when I was a kid and I would read those books. Wow, that's a great story. Wow. The other thing is, though, you can't get email with digital.

38:49You only allow like one page that you can receive on a digital email and an attachment. So people can't email. They couldn't email your book to a prisoner. Right. Interesting. Yeah, it's both cool and a little weird to get an email. or a letter from a prisoner. What are they saying? Oh, it's, you know, it's always... I'm sure your books are immensely helpful to people. The Obstacle is the Way is a big one. That would be the most. Yeah. They tend to be like white... I tend to hear most from white-collar criminals. Oh. Who are... Because they're like... They're like... You know, they went down a bad path or whatever, and now they're trying to turn...

39:24It's usually like drug addiction, or they were living outside their means, and then they found a shortcut, and then they hit rock bottom, and now they're trying to get their life back together. Very interesting. Yours are a little darker. Yours are like, I'm trying to get to the head of this prison gang, and your book is very helpful. Well, that doesn't happen so much. It's more like, you know, I'm 22 years old. I'm in for my first offense. This world is so intimidating and weird, and I have no idea. And your book really helped me, like, gain some self-control and kind of see through people and like know who you're dealing with that law, who's your ally, who's your friend, work as a friend, act as a spy.

40:09Oh, that person's been doing that on me. Sure. That kind of thing. I once had an email from someone saying that they kind of used it to help take over one block in the prison. It's also, I mean, I like the idea of having written something that's intended, obviously, for a much more advanced audience and then to have gotten it, that like someone who's like when you hear from someone they're like I'm in jail I've literally never read a book in my life and they're like I really liked your book and I'm like if I could get ancient philosophy interesting to that person that's very hard to have done and that's I'm excited to have reached that person more than some Ivy League college grad who knows all about Well, think of it this way.

40:57You know, in prison, you're literally confronting your physical confinement. Sure. But your mind isn't confined. Right. So up until recently, the prison library was like a gateway to the world. It was to open your mind. You could travel anywhere. You could think about anything. You could read about Aristotle and Socrates and about Machiavelli and all the great stories. and you can read about biographies and about you know african-american history etc that's what happened to malcolm x right yeah that's what educated malcolm x he had never opened a book before malcolm little he was a small-time hustler in boston a small-time hustler he's in for a drug offense it's a brutalizing system and he's he gets so depressed he starts going to the prison library and he completely educates himself there but the metaphor is that we're all kind of in a prison in this statement.

41:49It sounds sort of stupid and cliché, but what I mean is our minds are actually being programmed as we sit here. Our culture is programming us. It's putting us in a box. These are thoughts that you're supposed to have. This is how you're supposed to behave. And books are a way to get out of that, to expand yourself, to give yourself true freedom. That is the power that a book like yours could have, like Obstacle is the Way. You're kind of trapped in this life, this way of thinking and your book frees them up it's immensely powerful it's very cool well i hope everyone comes and sees this september not everyone because we don't have enough room just until it sells out but september 19th in los angeles september 21st in seattle you can buy tickets to come see robert green and i live in conversation doing some version of this uh you can buy tickets at ryan holiday dot net uh anything you want to tell people about coming?

42:45No, I think you want to tell people about coming? Definitely come. You can buy tickets to come have books signed and ask us questions after. People in the audience can ask questions and we're probably not going to do very many more of these so this is a rare thing. But I'm just saying this is a rare, like these are the only two dates that we have so these are, it's a rare chance to come see both of us and our conversation. And I have people flying from other countries to see this yes yeah and it uh should be exciting yeah it should be very exciting i'm looking forward to it me too well i'll see you in september okay see everyone in september all right ryan holliday.net slash tour okay very good

43:31thanks for listening to the daily stoic podcast just a reminder we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoic store. You can get them personalized. You can get them sent to a friend. The obstacle is the way you go is the enemy. Stillness is the key. The leather-bound edition of the Daily Stoic. We have them all in the Daily Stoic store, which you can check out at store.dailystoic.com.

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