Ryan Holiday on Bill Maher: Why Stoicism Is Having a Moment

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1:09Ryan Holiday: If you're hiring now, then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. We were in Rome this summer and my family and I stayed in this amazing palazzo that we booked on Airbnb. I had these frescoes that were twice as old as America, just one of the most beautiful places I've ever stayed in in my life. And in fact, I found out later that the people that owned it were listing their place on Airbnb. They were the third family to ever own it. I just thought it was so cool. Like by listing it on Airbnb, they were not only able to pay to restore and take care of this incredible piece of history, but they were also able to share it with the world.

1:49Ryan Holiday: So if you're planning on being away, if you have a property or an extra bedroom or maybe a vacation home, you should consider listing it on Airbnb. It can be a great way to earn some extra cash while you travel. And that can help offset the cost of your trip or it can go towards whatever comes next. Your home might be worth more than you think, and you can find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

2:34Ryan Holiday: Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. had a cool experience a couple weeks ago, hopped on a plane, flew to LA, got there pretty late at night, woke up that morning, went for a long run, and then worked in my hotel room until about three or four in the afternoon. And I went over to, I guess, what used to be the CBS lot there. And I sat down and talked stoicism with Bill Maher on Real Time with Bill Maher. I thought Actually, originally, they were inviting me to be one of the guests on the panel, which I've watched many, many times over the years. You probably have as well.

3:16Ryan Holiday: I thought that's what they were asking. No, that was actually the interview at the top of the show, the main segment. It was really cool. Everyone there was just unbelievably kind. I walk in the dressing room, and there's an Iron Maiden poster on the wall and an Iron Maiden shirt. The people had just been unbelievably nice. It was so cool. and look, they'd prep me for it for sure. They were like, look, he doesn't give easy interviews. It's not going to be softballs. He's going to test you a little bit. He's going to tease you a little bit. You got to be ready for that. But they were like, look, at the end of the day, this is the stuff he's interested in.

3:54Ryan Holiday: He loves history. He loves philosophy. So if you can gel, like it'll work. And one of the things I wanted to do was like talk to people who knew him, who'd been on there. You don't just go in there cold. So I asked a bunch of comedian friends that I know and have known over the years. Whitney Cummings, who just introduced him and spoke at the Mark Twain Award, which he was accepting. I asked some other comedians that I know here in Austin. I got really good advice. She was like, be prepared for him to just say something that will totally throw you. And then if you can handle that, then you're good.

4:29Ryan Holiday: Then you've proven you can hang. And that was pretty much exactly how it went. And look, I was really nervous. I mean, you're sitting in the green room, presidents, vice presidents, actors, directors, entrepreneurs, aspiring leaders, all sorts of people have been on this show over the almost 30 years that it's been on. And I was nervous. I ran through some Stoic lessons before I went on. I was actually in the green room with a friend of mine and I was sort of riffing on some Stoic lessons before you're about to go on live TV in front of a live studio audience, which is pretty intimidating. Actually, here's what I put together.

5:08Ryan Holiday: So I'm about to go on real time with Bill Maher. Here are five Stoic things I'm thinking about. The first is, how do you prepare? The Stoics talked about premeditatio malorum, a premeditation of evils. I talked to all the comics I know. I talked to people who know Bill. I watched episodes of the show. Like when Seneca said, the unexpected blow lands heaviest. He's talking about not being caught off guard by what might happen. So you want to know what you're in for. The second one has to do with that, which is Mark Sreelius talks about, He says, what is clapping? What is cheering? There's going to be a live audience in there.

5:39Ryan Holiday: He says, clapping and cheering are the clacking of tongues and the smacking of hands. It's not worth pandering to. It's not worth obsessing over. Hopefully they like what I say. Hopefully they cheer and clap. But if they don't, it doesn't mean anything to me. The third one is this idea that ego is the enemy, which the Stoics talk about over and over and over again. Don't let things puff you up. Don't think that you're important. Don't think that anyone knows who you are or what you have to say. go in there and be willing to prove yourself, explain yourself, make what you have to say interesting, which is another important thing.

6:10Ryan Holiday: Zeno talked about how we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. You always want to make sure you don't talk over the person. You don't talk too much. You listen. It's supposed to be a good conversation. The fourth, Mark Schreles talks about, says a rock gains nothing by going up and loses nothing by coming down. None of this stuff says anything about you. It's wonderful to have career success. It's wonderful to be recognized. it's wonderful to have cool opportunities, but it doesn't say anything about you as a person. And I think when you think about that, it allows you to just relax, be in the moment and do what you have to do.

6:42Ryan Holiday: The fifth one is Epictetus says you want to be able to go into every situation and say, this is what I trained for. So the question is like, did you do the work? You don't just show up and have good answers on the fly. This is a result of practice. It's a result of doing the work. You don't have ego. You have confidence. You have confidence because you have done the work. And then, you know, all of a sudden they sort of, okay, we're going to mic you up. You walk down the hall and you're standing there right in the wings. And then you hear your intro and then boom, you're on live TV in front of a live audience.

7:14Ryan Holiday: Then all of a sudden you're out there and you're just in it. And I think we had a great conversation. Let me bring you a chunk of that. So what do you think now here, why are you having so much success with this? Why do you think this is the moment where it caught. To me, you know, it does kind of make sense that people who, especially the younger generations, who think they're in so much pain. Yeah. We both laughed at that. Yeah, totally. But it fits. Yes. Look, I think one of the reasons stoicism is working is because it has been tried and tested over 25 centuries. It's a merciless process of the crucible of human experience, testing these ideas and refining them.

7:56Ryan Holiday: But I think the reason it's having a moment particularly today is we are seeing a collapse in the other institutions and ideologies that used to shape and direct people. People aren't going to church as much. They see that there is a dearth of great leaders and moral examples. And so we're looking backwards to people who from a previous time seem to have figured it out, wrote something down, have something to share and teach us. and it would be wonderful if these ideas were taught in school, but they're not. And so people wake up and they go, especially I think young men, they wake up and they go, well, I know what I don't want to be, but who should I be?

8:34Ryan Holiday: What should I do? And they're desperate for advice. And that is a void that if we don't fill, Andrew Tate fills.

8:49Ryan Holiday: Did my segment that I went back to the green room, Then the two guests did the main part of the show, Andrew Cuomo and Kristen Soltzitz-Anderson, were on. And then afterwards, they bring you back out and you do an overtime segment where you riff about, which was also cool. That was us talking stoicism and politics and culture, how we deal with disagreements. And yeah, I thought it was great. Thanks to the folks at Bill Maher for having me on. They were so nice. They sent my grandmother, who is a huge fan of the show, like this giant bag of Bill Maher and real-time swag, which like seriously, the people were just so incredibly nice.

9:28Ryan Holiday: It was awesome. Thanks to Bill for having me on the show. And then my plane was just delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed. I got home at three in the morning, I believe, and woke up and tried to have a normal Saturday with the family. And now I'm bringing you that episode. Let's get into it. every time you look at your phone there's another chaotic headline and you almost feel like you have to be glued to your screen to keep up but saving for your future doesn't have to be this hard because wealth front helps you tune out the noise and earn more with a high yield cash account and sophisticated easy to use investing products their cash account lets you earn up to a 4.3 % variable apy with fee free checking features and free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts When you're ready to invest, transferring cash into your Wealthfront investment account takes just minutes.

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12:15Ryan Holiday: Now available in Canada and the UK too. Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash stoic. All right, our panel, the host of the Daily Stoic podcast and best-selling author of Wisdom Peg's work, Ryan Holiday. Okay, the former Democratic governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, and she's a CNN contributor and pollster at Echelot Insight, Kristen Zoltis. Anderson. Okay. First one is from the people for you, Ryan. Which book do you think should every American read? Good question. I heard Obama's going to have a podcast just about books. He's, you know, Oprah thing. Book club. I think it's people reading books. Books are like dinosaurs now.

12:56What is that? What is that? What book do you think everybody...

12:59Ryan Holiday: I mean, this is an obvious pick, but I think Gatsby is the greatest American novel, maybe the greatest one in English. Really? I could not disagree more. What? It's a pretty good book. They've made it into a movie so many times, and it always sucks. And the last time I watched it and it sucked, I went, maybe it's the book. Thank you. Well, why do you think it's so great? To me, Gatsby is the American dream, and it's also the careless people smashing things up. Careless, yeah. The green light is the aspiration. I like that, trying to get back to a simpler time. And at the same time, we also have the carelessness of the rich, the indifference of the rich, the ridiculousness of the rich.

13:50Ryan Holiday: And then, speaking of books, my favorite scene is they walk into the library, and he has this enormous display of books. and then Carraway finds out none of them have ever actually been opened. The pages haven't been cut, which is how books were. You know, we talk a lot about books. People have opinions about books. People have opinions about the Odyssey. But if people actually read them, if they actually read them more than once, you know, I think there's something there, too. I have a lot of books in my house I haven't read. I guess. I just love the way books look. I have a whole... I do, as they do.

14:21Do you organize them? I've read books. I've read plenty of books. But, like, a lot of books I haven't read. Do you organize them by color? How do you organize them? I organize them by color. Wow, I'm anal. I'm not that bad. No, I like it, the fact that there's all different colors. It makes for a wall. Nothing else makes a wall, I think. It's a great look, but that's me. Book, what book would you recommend? I would recommend C.S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters. And while it is a Christian book, it's not a proselytizing book. It's a book about what goes on in the mind when you are being tempted away from your values and how we think somebody's temptation to do something bad is like it's obvious.

15:03And instead, it's about how like the little voice inside your head, just tiny little things, little annoyances, like can lead you down a path away from what you truly believe is important. I always thought C.S. Lewis was Christian proselytizing. Well, it is a Christian book, and I don't think it's... Oh, okay. It's not hiding it whatsoever, but it's not a book that is intended to be about, here's why Christianity is great. It's a book that's like, here's why the devil is... So if I read it, on which page would I throw it against the wall? I don't think you would. I don't think you would. That's my challenge to you.

15:33Give it a try. I'm just kidding. Andrew, what's your favorite book? I'd have a book just for Democrats. Uh... Boy, you are true blue. Reason... Even bluer. Reason to Believe by Mario Cuomo. God rest his soul. Oh, Jesus. My father. And it was, it is a very succinct read of what the Democratic Party is supposed to be about with the heart and soul and mission of the Democratic Party was supposed to be about. And we've lost that. Reason to Believe, Mario Cuomo. He was a great voice for it, but he was a better writer about it. Okay. that's your dad yep what are your thoughts on Trump saying he will declare the Strait of Hormuz a territory of the United States I cannot keep up with this guy I mean this every day there's a new version of the Strait of Hormuz it's like Mary Hartman I just now it's gonna be a territory of the United States Wow Okay, but it looks like we don't even control it.

16:45I mean... It means nothing. It means nothing. Like every other statement, it means nothing. We have peace. We have war. I'm going to bomb. I'm not going to bomb. We have a deal. We don't have a deal. What does the panel think of reports that sailors aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln have tried to jump overboard amid terrible conditions and a record 250 consecutive days at sea? That makes my blood boil.

17:08Ryan Holiday: Didn't Trump say today that it hasn't been out long enough? That's what he said his response was it hasn't been out at sea long enough So this is a guy that supposedly supports the troops is that like this is To be away from your family that long for a war. We shouldn't be in at all

17:3250 days they haven't gotten used to it yet. That's what he's thinking. I mean, it's bizarre I've used this phrase before, but, you know, Republicans, they have this patriotic immunity. Like, they can do things that are so unpatriotic, and they don't seem to pay a price for it the way a Democrat would. When I hear about troops being on a ship where the toilets aren't working, and there's not enough food, and they're so morose about this that at least one of them jumped off the ship, it just makes my blood boil. Well, this is also why it's so important that if you are going to do something like commit American troops to a war where war is hell, it has to be for a reason that's a very good reason that you've communicated very well to everybody who's involved.

18:24And for these soldiers to feel on the ship, not only are they being let down by the actual conditions that they are in, but to also not feel like they're there for any kind of mission that is worth fighting. I disagree with that. There was a mission worth fighting we fucked it up how we did it Iran having an nuclear weapon Iran being the actor in the Middle East That has fucked everything up in that region for the last 50 years Changing that dynamic was not a unreasonable thing to try they did it at the wrong time They fucked it up. They should have done it when the people were in the streets.

18:58They didn't and now we're here

19:07with Iran not having a nuclear program, that we are better off, that we have gotten rid of an enormous amount of their capabilities. But we've gotten ourselves into a situation now where folks are deployed in the Middle East who, you know, there are, it's thankfully not nearly as many as used to be coming home on a regular basis during Iraq and Afghanistan, but we're still losing American lives over there. We're drifting away from the point, which is that we, a trillion dollars, a trillion dollar defense budget, and you can't put food on an aircraft carrier? I mean, it's just, some of it speaks to just competence.

19:41And that should go down the chain, as they say in the military. Well, that's almost unbelievable. You know, the first, that he didn't lay out the case to the American people before he started, I think it was a big mistake. Because you're right, there was a case to lay out. He just didn't do it. It was just Venezuela yesterday and now we're going to do this. No, he did. Yeah, once he started. And then we weren't prepared. We have the greatest military on the globe. How are we running out of weapons? I mean, it's incredible. Andrew, is there a legitimate... I know why this is for you. Is there a...

20:14Because you're in this business now. You're in the crypto business. Is there a legitimate real-world use for cryptocurrency, or is it just an avenue for criminals and corrupt politicians? I don't think they mean you by that. But, I mean... But you are in... It's so interesting to me what politicians do. Like John Boehner left politics and went into the pot business. He and I are in the same business now. We are. I'm the woods, the best pot store. It's on Santa Monica Boulevard. John Boehner. John Boehner went into psychedelic. I mean, no, Rick Perry went into psychedelics. That's his business now.

20:58Rick Perry, former governor of Texas. You went to crypto. Why would you want to get into such a dirty business? Yeah, well, dirty business is a broad statement. 2014, I became interested in the industry. I was governor of New York. We were the first to regulate it because the technology, the financial technology is revolutionary and can do great, great things if properly used. This blockchain technology and these smart contracts, it can make transactions faster, cheaper, more accessible for people. I work with a company called OKX. We just did a partnership with ICE, which owns the New York Stock Exchange, which I believe is the best exchange on the globe.

21:40He says as an arrogant New Yorker. But you will be able to buy tokenized stock 24-7 globally with tokenized securitization. I mean, it's going to change the whole industry. But it has to be done right. And it has to be regulated. And it has to be clean. But the whole point of it is that it's not regulated. That's the whole reason they started it, because they don't want regulation. Only in this country. Only in this country. Europe, 30 countries agreed on a common regulatory scheme, have a common regulator. We can't get the Senate and the House to agree for our own regulations in this country.

22:23That's what happened here. We still don't have regulations in place. That's the controversy about the Clarity Act that was supposed to pass and finally put in regulations. Well, whatever it is here, I know it's used by hackers and sex traffickers and kidnappers. What? Am I wrong? Well, it's also used by a lot more... What is the stoic view on crypto? No, really. Where do the stoics come in?

22:54Ryan Holiday: Seneca's line was, it's okay to be rich as long as your money's not stained in blood. So it matters what industry you're in. It matters how you make your money. It matters who you're in business with. So I do think there's some sketchy things about the industry, and there's probably a reason that our president likes it so much. Well, I mean, that's... That's the thing, Andrew. That's why it has to be done right. That's why it has to be regulated. That's why it has to be clean. That's why it has to be compliant. Look, before I was governor of the form. We have that. Like money itself, it doesn't exist either.

23:30It's all about we just believe it. We just believe the bank has the money. They don't really have the money, right? So what's the point of just having this new thing that's just in the air and in our minds? Because that's regular. You're focusing on the coins. I'm focusing on the technology. The technology is different. It's digital ledger technology. It is instantaneous. It is faster. It is cheaper. And it will allow financial transactions disruptive because it's going to reduce the cost by reducing the intermediaries. But literally, 24-7 stock market trading, bringing trillions of dollars into this country.

24:15But moving quickly, couldn't that also be a bad thing? because I seem to remember when there's sort of a run on the market, what they have to do is freeze it because otherwise we'll go... The exchange will still have checks. They'll still have checks on it. So could we just do that? We can stop the trading? It will go through ICE, which is the largest exchange globally. New York Stock... Different ICE. Different ICE. Intercontinental Exchange, which owns the New York Stock Exchange. All right. We'll wind up with this one. And Ryan, are there any modern leaders who you think are doing a good job modeling Stoic virtues?

24:48Good question.

24:50Ryan Holiday: Well, I think these days we obviously see more people modeling the opposite of Stoicism. You know, you have your Elon Musks of the world waking up every day, freaking out about things that are not in his control. One of my Stoic here is modern Stoic here. Most of the people I write about are dead. But I think General Mattis is not just an embodiment of the idea, but he famously carries the stoics with him on his deployments. And certainly watching this situation unfold now, we miss that kind of adult supervision in the Pentagon these days. Yeah. I mean, Elon, a lot of people say, well, it's the ketamine talking when he does crazy stuff.

25:26It's also the social media. It's bad for the brain. No, but he's been... He's not out of school. He's talked about his drug use. Is there a place within stoicism for doing drugs? Well, uh... I'm asking for a friend. Yes.

25:47Ryan Holiday: I might point you to a philosophy called Epicureanism. That seems more your style. But they have more in common than they do differences. All right. Well, thank you very much. You're all very entertaining. You were a fantastic fan. We'll see you next week. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

26:11You