Stephen A. Smith On Debating, Working, And Living With Authenticity

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1:17Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. That's toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

1:32Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:20Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. You probably notice in my books, in my writing, maybe if you follow me on Instagram, I am a sports addict. I grew up in Sacramento, so I'm a Kings fan. I have gotten to visit with and talk to a bunch of different sports teams. Certainly, I was not thinking when I wrote this book about ancient philosophy that I would get to connect with these different teams, but that has been a very cool experience. And one of the things you've noticed in these locker rooms, in these front offices, is they're just running the same sports shows that the rest of us are watching.

3:05You might think, you know, you watch these talk shows on ESPN, like, who are these people talking to? They're not just talking to fans. Like, they are talking to the people in the industry, which is crazy. Even if people in the industry say they don't know what they're talking about, they can't stop watching them like the rest of us. And I guess I've been watching my guest today, Stephen A. Smith, for longer than I can really remember. He is one of the biggest names in sports commentary, certainly one of the biggest to not have come to it from the field. And he has a new book that came out in January called Straight Shooter, a memoir of second chances and first takes.

3:49And it's about the highs and lows of his careers, his thoughts on all the controversies and arguments he's gotten in, his thoughts on the biggest stories in sports. and his quite nearly fatal bout of COVID. And, you know, it's in the same style as all the Stephen A. Smith stuff that you've seen. But when I had the chance to have him on the podcast, he wasn't someone I was thinking would be your typical Daily Stoic guest. And that's why I guess I was looking forward to having him on. And we had a great conversation. Stephen played basketball at Winston-Salem State University. He wrote for the New York Daily News in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

4:32He's been on ESPN's first take since 2012. He's an analyst on NBA Countdown, is the host of NBA in Stephen A's World, and he has a new podcast called No Mercy with Stephen A. Smith. I thought this was a great conversation. I was a little nervous to go toe-to-toe with one of the Mike dominators of our time, but we ended up having a great conversation, And I thought the book was really interesting and I had fun reading it. Check out Straight Shooter, a memoir of second chances and first take. But first, my conversation with the one and only Stephen A. Smith. He's at Stephen A. Smith on pretty much every platform.

5:13And you can find his podcast, No Mercy, on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere else.

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7:11How good is it to be in a world where the Sacramento Kings are good again, man? it's a great feeling because i think that um when you look at d 'aaron fox who's really emerged as a superstar you look at malik monk the way that he's been balling the coaching job my vote for coach of the year obviously was everybody's coach of the year mike brown he's done an exceptional job you never saw that coming and for them to be irrelevant for so long and then a bust on the seen, the only thing you find yourself feeling is, damn, what if they get beaten by Golden State? It's a crying shame. As much as we would all prefer that Steph Curry continue to play because he's just the ultimate superstar and their style of play in Golden State is fascinating to watch.

8:02It's a damn shame that if they won, that means Sacramento has to go home early because you'd like to see them playing for a long time as well. Number one offense in the NBA, they're very entertaining to watch. I remember as a kid, we would go to Sacramento Kings games and they were so bad that we would hope they would get 100 points because there was like free tacos the next day. It was like a promo. And now to go from free tacos to light the beam, it's just, it's the best. It's special, man. I think it is. I think it's special and I don't think you can get around it. It's great for basketball.

8:35It's entertaining for basketball and to see an emerging star like De 'Aaron Fox blossom before our very eyes. I think that goes a long way. It's the only argument that I've ever gotten into with Irvin Magic Johnson, my buddy that I've known for many years. I begged him to draft De 'Aaron Fox. I said, don't, don't draft Lonzo. De 'Aaron Fox is that dude. That's the guy you want. And I kept insisting upon that. And it's the only thing that I've ever been right about against him, you know, Because he is a basketball savant, if ever there was one, the greatest point guard in the history of basketball, unless you prefer somebody the likes of Steph Curry.

9:13But Magic Johnson, the ultimate leader, the five-time champion, phenomenal point guard. That might be the only thing that I feel I've ever been right about arguing with him. I don't know if anyone could have predicted he would be so clutch. Fourth quarter Fox. I mean, you can tell someone's going to be good, but it's hard to predict someone's going to be clutch. And there's no question about it. But that's what makes stars. You know, Kenny Smith for TNT always says it. In a regular season, you make your name. In the postseason, you make your fame. And that's what De 'Aaron Fox was doing before our very eyes right now.

9:47And I got to tell you that, you know, he deserves a lot of credit. There's no doubt about that. And I give him a lot of credit for it because he is a star. He's unguardable. He's not just quick, but he's fast. He's both. Usually it's one or the other. He's both. I've heard you say that you have the best job because either you win the argument or you learn something, which strikes me as a good life lesson. I've heard people say you either succeed or you fail. And when you fail, you succeed because you learn something. Absolutely. I mean, I think that's the right attitude to have. You know, when you go in there and it's all about being right, that's counterproductive.

10:28Yeah. That's not going to get you very far. It does a disservice to your loved ones, those that you're close to, the people that you work with, the organizations you represent, et cetera, where there's this commitment and this fixation towards being right as opposed to, you know, putting yourself in a position where you give folks an opportunity to learn and to be enlightened. And for me personally, most of the time, I believe I'm absolutely right when I'm debating somebody. And I mean, that is definitely the case. I'm not trying to run away from that by any stretch of the imagination. But if I'm wrong or if somebody has a cogent point that, you know, that illuminates in my mind and makes me stop and pause and say, hey, that's a damn good point.

11:12I get where they're coming from. I pride myself in being that kind of person. is it hard when you're good at arguing uh to i imagine being good at argument arguing is kind of a disadvantage in that people have to not just be right but they have to be better than you at arguing to get you to see the error of your ways or to see their point i disagree with that um Because I'm not attempting to be right. That's the key. I believe I'm right. But I'm not attempting to be. I'm not striving to be right. I have a conversation with you. This is my point of view. I believe it's right. It doesn't mean that I shut off my ears and refuse to listen.

11:58I think that I'm right. But as you make your points, it's not like you have to be a better arguer or a better debater. You simply have to make a point because I'm the kind of person, I'm not going to be married to making sure I come across right. I'm man enough to step back and say, that's a damn good point. I didn't think about that. You're kind of right about that. And I give it to you. You got me there. You know, I don't have a problem of being that way. A matter of fact, when I look at politicians in today's day and age, I think that's one of our biggest problems in the nation. Everybody is trying to be right.

12:38They're not opening themselves to the possibility that they could be corrected, that they may have been ill-informed, or there just may be a better way, a better strategy, a better agenda than the one that they've had. And because they're so fixated and married to that kind of thinking, it eradicates the possibility of compromise. And when that happens, all you have is tension and friction and very little action getting done because both sides are committed to being right and making sure there's a constituency out there that sees their point of view rather than even entertaining the possibility that there may be a better point of view than the one that they're providing.

13:25And I think that that's an incredible problem. And the reason why it's such a big problem is because when you have elected officials who have dominion over our lives in terms of the taxes that we pay, you know, health care, you know, education reform, immigration, the list goes on and on and on. When you have folks in a position as elected officials that have that level of dominion and compromise isn't a part of the equation, while how on earth is compromise going to trickle down to the people they hover over? It's not going to happen. You're going to follow. You're going to find people taking sides and it's going to contribute to the divisiveness that exists.

14:08And I think it plays an integral role in the country being the way that it is right now. Yeah, we learned a bad lesson in the early 2000s. Remember, John Kerry was a flip-flopper. We should want our politicians to change their mind if they thought they were wrong. You don't want a flip-flopper who just says whatever everyone wants them to say. But you do want someone to reconsider their old positions if new evidence comes. Well, that's where the constituency, the populace, the citizens of this country come into play. And we're just as much, if not almost as much to blame as they are. because we don't want them to flip flop.

14:44Yeah. We don't want them to say, I was wrong. I need to correct the error of my ways because a lot of people look at it as weak. Yeah. Or they look at it as you not being as thorough as you needed to be. So because of that, they lose faith in you. And as a result, they don't vote for you. And because they're not going to vote for you, you're going to lose your power, which you don't want to do. So you have to do everything you can, excuse my language, to cover your ass. And that's what they do. And so because of that, that just trickles down. We need to do a better job of forgiving. But in the same breath, the level of cynicism that we harbor, I can understand where it comes from.

15:22It comes from a place where especially if you're a politician and you've been elected into office and you've had this position and that was why somebody voted for you, then you change that position after you've been after you've reached office. Then that then then that constituency is going to feel betrayed because they're going to feel like they were played. And that's where that comes into play. And so you've got to draw a fine line and you've got to make sure that you're doing things that would eliminate the feeling that someone who's voted for that a voter would have towards you about being about feeling hoodwinked.

15:59You have to make sure they don't feel that way. You have to be genuine in your communication and making sure you express and disseminate the message. Look, I made a mistake. I didn't I didn't feel this way back then. I thought I was right. I might have been wrong. OK, and because I might have been wrong, I have to correct the error of my ways. There's a there's a great exchange in one of Cicero's dialogue. Someone someone points out, hey, you thought this, you know, a while ago and now you think this. And he says, don't quote me against myself. He said, I'm a free agent. I change my mind based on what I see.

16:33And I think this idea of being a free agent as far as ideologies go is really important to people want to keep the same opinions as their tribe. but sometimes your tribe is wrong. And just because you identify as Republican or Democrat or whatever it is, it doesn't mean you got to buy into every position that that has. I totally agree with you. But the question is, will they ever adopt that kind of thinking? See, for me, I don't blame them if they looked at somebody like me, meaning the politicians, and they said, well, that's easy for you to say. Yeah. Because I'm not looking for votes. Right.

17:09So I understand where they would come from if they were to say such a thing. What my retort would be, I got guts. I'm not scared of somebody disagreeing with me. I'm not scared of somebody getting on me because I had to acknowledge I was wrong. If I was wrong, I was wrong. And if that comes with some cynicism, if that comes with some comeuppance, so be it. It's okay. I'll live another day. It's all right. Well, it's funny. People go, we don't want to piss off the base. But if, if you can't say what you think or do what you think needs to be done without losing your base, you don't have a base.

17:52The base has you, right? I think about this as a, as a creator, like if you're afraid to, to, if you're constantly afraid, you're going to lose the audience. You don't have an audience. You just have some people who know who you are. No question. That's the point. But here's the problem. The problem isn't what you just broke down, Ryan. You know what the real problem is? Hit me. They've accepted it. Yeah. The real problem is that the politicians accept it. You don't have a base. They have you. And their mentality is, yeah, they have me publicly, but privately, they don't know what I'm doing. Privately, they don't know what my relationships are with these lobbyists.

18:32Privately, they don't know who I've networked with, the kind of connections that I have, the kind of power that I'm able to wield because I have this connection with an audience that thinks they have me. But I really have them. This is what they do behind the scenes. And so because that's the mentality that they likely have, I don't know it definitively, of course, but that's because one could deduce that that's the mentality they likely have. Where does that leave us? Yeah. You know what I was thinking about people who are afraid to be wrong is, you know, those stats about how like coaches should go for it on fourth down more often than they do or take certain shots more often than they do.

19:12Like the reason they don't, the speculation is, is that they don't want to be criticized. Right. And I think, I just think it's funny to think of some NFL coach who's getting paid millions of dollars a year who's trained their whole life for this moment who has overwhelming statistics telling them one way or another but part of them is like i don't want to get roasted by steven a smith tomorrow and that is affecting the play i don't believe that's the case i think you're wrong there i think they're scared of losing their jobs i don't think they're scared of the criticism scared of getting fired.

19:47Sure. There's a difference. Because ultimately, you lose your power position. If they can hold on to their power position and they know that they're secure in that, they're not worried about criticism. Not in professional sports, because you understand it comes with it. As a sports fan, you never believe that you don't know. Yeah, you might not know who's getting traded where. You might not know that inside information, but I'm talking strictly as it pertains to what you see. You can't tell a sports fan anything. They think they already know. All they want to know from you is whether you agree or disagree with their position and why.

20:27Right. So they could have an argument. That's it. They don't think that you know more than they do. And so as a result of that, you understand that if you're an athlete, you're a coach, you're an executive, you're an owner, criticism and skepticism comes with the territory. And you accept that with ease so long as you know you're going to be able to still keep your job. But I do think there's a part of every person that wants to be, that wants to see their, that would prefer to avoid criticism than seek out praise. Right? Nobody wants to get roasted. So we do less than – we are risk-averse because we are afraid of getting roasted, even if not publicly on TV, than at the staff meeting tomorrow.

21:18But you're using the word risk. And what I would say to you is that it's not so much the prospect of being criticized. It's about being wrong. And everyone knows it. If you're criticized, but you know you're right and you know it can't be proven that you're wrong and it's just people criticizing you because they didn't like the decision that you made. You sleep well at night. You'll get over it in most instances. It's the specter of someone being right about what they deem the label as your incompetence. Yeah. OK, how ill informed you may be. And based off of that, you're looking at it and you're saying, now they've got a reason to question my credibility.

22:05If I'm watching the Knicks game and I say to you, Julius Randle is averaging 29 points a game and he's playing lights out and stuff like that and the Knicks are going to win this series. It's not that the Knicks win or lose. It's that, damn it, Julius Randle's been awful. in two of these three games. What do you mean he's averaging 29 points per game? That is false. He's not even 29 % from the field or from three-point range, rather. He's really, really struggling. So now that you misquoted that stat and you seem to not know what's going on in this series because anybody who's watching this series wouldn't say that your credibility has now come into question because you don't know.

22:56Not because you said the Knicks are going to lose or the Knicks are going to win and something else happens. It's because the details that you used to highlight your position were off. That's what people want to avoid. They don't care if they're wrong. All right, I picked the Knicks to win and they lose. As a Knicks fan, I don't care because I'm a Knicks fan. But as a pundit, so what I was wrong. I've been wrong before. I'm going to be wrong again. But you can't be wrong about the facts that you portrayed to be spewing. Sure. And those facts prove you're ill-informed. Does it ever surprise you how much people in sports watch shows like yours?

23:35Like, I'm always surprised whenever I go into a sports team and they've got ESPN or Fox running in the background, watching the opinion shows. Is that surprise you? Not at all. Why not? I think people who are surprised aren't paying attention to what's going on. Okay. In the society that we're living in, everyone has the news within five minutes. The minute a story breaks, it's worldwide within five minutes. Sure. It's the perspective people are waiting for. That's why they watch. Tell me what it means. You look at your podcast right now. It's the Daily Stoic. Ryan provides a perspective. You're not breaking any news.

24:22When people are listening to you, because they're listening to the perspective you provide, along with the perspectives that you peel from others, and that perspective gives people a food for thought. They're able to say, well, Stephen A. said this, and Ryan said this. Well, this is how I feel about it. Here's why. While taking into account what you said to decipher whether they agree or disagree with your point of view. That's everyone. Sure. We've just happened to make a business out of it. Yeah. It's not just sports. Politics. Well, you know what's going on in Ukraine. You know what's going on with illegal immigration in this country.

25:08You know what's going on with the borders. You know what people are saying about the Biden administration. You know what's going on with crimes in the streets. You saw Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, saying X, Y, and Z about the immigration crisis in New York City, how he needs, you know, billions. And he's only gotten about four to eight million. You know, you've seen all of this stuff. You know the news. What you're looking for is the perspective. Is he right about this? Are they right about that? What's their position here? Does this make any sense? Why would they say something like that?

25:44Where did that come from? Even with the war in Ukraine. All right. There's a war going on in Ukraine. Are they going to win or are they going to lose and all of that stuff? That's one angle. What's the biggest angle? Russia's unjustification for doing so. Well, why were they unjust? What exactly did they do? Do they believe that territory belongs to them? Is this the path they should have taken? Should they not have negotiated some kind, something, so they could have gotten a piece of the land? They got Crimea for crying out loud. Got all of this stuff going on. People are looking for perspectives because they learn more when they listen to those things.

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28:35It's funny. I remember I was in a hotel eating breakfast one morning and First Take was on and CNN was on One TV, MSNBC, Fox News, and the sound was turned off of all of them. And it was actually really helpful to me when it struck me that all four screens were doing the exact same thing. What you're doing is entertainment, right? Because that's what sports ultimately are. Although you talk about important cultural issues too. But it was actually really helpful because it changed my media diet when I realized that the panels on these other shows, whether it was a right wing or left wing panel, that they were doing the same sort of speculation and guessing and perspective creation.

29:20Right. And that watching Fox News, let's say, or MSNBC is not informing ourselves the way that we think it is. Well, that may be true. But it may be false. Okay. If you are someone, like for example, you have a lot of people that want to talk about what's going on in sports. Sure. And what goes on in certain locker rooms. They don't have players' numbers on speed dial. Right. I do. They don't have coaches' numbers on speed dial. I do. They don't have executives' numbers on speed dial. I do. They don't have owners and commissioners numbers on speed dial. I do. So the perspective that they might try to provide is a lot different than my own.

30:23Because you never know where my information is coming from. But if you're not connected to the sports that you talk about, I know where your information is coming from. That would be nowhere. but just reading articles and watching TV. Well, the same is applicable to politics and news. When you have folks that are in the trenches, they come from an informed perspective. That informed perspective, albeit perspective, is still educational because they're giving you a backdrop and they're giving you nuggets of history that you may not have otherwise known. Because they were there. When you have a war correspondent that's on the streets of Ukraine, that's a little bit different than some dude that's sitting in a New York studio talking about what's going on in Ukraine.

31:18You see what I'm saying? And so it's not you can't always shun and shove aside perspectives. Some perspectives are very informed and informative. We just believe otherwise from time to time because we can't always tell you the source of our information. because if we tell you the source of our information, they get burned. And they get burned and then you won't have any sources of information. That's what you're guarding against. That's what you've got to be mindful of. But don't think for one second that because people are providing perspectives, it doesn't mean they're educational. They're very educational.

31:55Well, I think what I'm saying is that when you're sitting there, you're debating, you know, is LeBron James the GOAT or not? You know, is so-and-so doing great? Should this team trade this team? Your agenda is fundamentally different than when we're watching the news where two sides are trying to battle out for the dominion that we were talking about earlier, right? Like there's something pure about what you're doing compared to what's happening on TV where they are trying to spin and change and create narratives that actually do impact and direct future reality in a way that sports ultimately as a spectator experience is a little different, if that makes sense.

32:41Well, listen, I will tell you this. It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it's understandable. Yes. Because you're talking about, forget the politicians for a second. Let's take into account contributors and pundits from both sides of the aisle. Surrogates. surrogates their mission is to protect the agenda and the narrative that has been put out there so if you listen to the right you might listen to Sean Hannity then you turn around and you listen to Clay Travis and you turn around and you listen to Mark Levin and you turn around and you watch pundits for CNN, MSNBC Fox News and they're echoing and articulating the same relative thoughts because it's widely recognized that the right has this agenda.

33:42The RNC, the Republican National Committee, and the influence that they wield. This is our directive. This is what our target message is. This is what we believe will influence folks to make sure they veer towards our side, blah, blah, blah. And then the left comes on, and it's the woke culture. And yes, we don't want folks talking about Biden's son, Hunter. We don't want folks talking about the immigration crisis at the borders. We don't want folks talking about the lack of labor participation in the market and stuff like that. That's not a winning formula for us. But what is is the transgender issue, the woke culture, et cetera, et cetera.

34:24So we want you to focus on that. And then you see people coming back and they start talking about whatever it is that they're talking about on the left. I'm saying both sides are doing the same thing. It's just that each is trying to send their own message. And so because that is the way that it is, and we're talking about votes at stake, you know, potentially for elected officials, their agenda in their eyes are of a higher calling. And the genuine, authentic delivery and dissemination of information is compromised. Yeah. Because too much is at stake. And they're saying this is what we got to do to make sure our side wins.

35:10That's why I don't fall for, for lack of a better phrase, the okie-dokie from either side. They both have their agendas. I know what they're doing. And it's not, I joked around one time when I was on a podcast and I was on TV because I've known somebody like Sean Hannity for years. And I joked and I literally said this. I said, listen, somebody could get home in the middle of the streets of New York in broad daylight. Okay. and the crime was committed by a Republican. First words out of Sean Handley's mouth is going to be, they did it first, meaning the Republicans. Of course. They did it first.

35:50He's going to try to show you the equality of it all or the discrepancy that's being exercised. When Trump, I'm watching some show on TV last night for the first time, it was called Accidental President, if I remember correctly. It was some kind of docuseries on Trump winning the presidency. And, you know, it was talking about when, you know, Access Hollywood, when he got caught on tape, his voice saying, you know, you can do anything. You're rich, you're famous, you can even grab a woman by the you know what. And he instantly said those were just words. But the actions of Bill Clinton far usurped that.

36:28And Hillary were going after those women. But all of a sudden, you know what, now I'm the villain. And then when he showed up to the debates, he showed up to the women who had accused Bill Clinton of these actions. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Playing that game. Yeah. Because the whole thing was, look, as bad as I was, they're worse. He was creating a narrative, trying to spin the narrative in the other way. But I'm just saying, both sides do it. Yeah. It's a working formula. And so for me, where the skepticism never dissipates is when you hear the other side lamenting, what their opponents are doing, acting like they never do it, when we see them do it every day.

37:10Of course. It's the gamesmanship, and you just have to accept the fact that that comes with it. No, and I think it's helpful to watch sports and watch it happen in a more innocent context where people are just arguing about this and that and then realize that that same thing is happening in a more serious context and that the consequences of that are different. Yeah. I mean, the consequences are a little bit different in the world of sports, but still, you can find yourself in hot water if you're fabricating stories, if you're plagiarizing, if you're making stuff up or whatever the case may be.

37:44There are tenets that are applicable no matter where you go. When you have a microphone, particularly with a camera in front of it, and you're disseminating things that you know to be untrue, that is definitely something that will come back to bite you. That's not wise and nobody should do it. So let me ask you a question. I'm always curious when someone is like the best in the world at what they do, what they think their killer advantage is, what their sort of secret sauce is. For you, I mean, so many people dream about being the guy that gets to have opinions about sports on TV and you're the top dog there.

38:21When you look at yourself, what do you feel like your greatest attribute is? What makes you, you? I'm my authentic self. As you talk to me, what you see is what you get.

38:42My life, as I look at it, I have a job to do. I'm going to do it. It's that simple. I don't need applause. I don't need attention. I get a lot of it. I get a lot of the other side too. But at the end of the day, my man, I'm coming to work to perform and fulfill my obligations to my respective employer. I finished the job, pay me and I go home. It's that simple. You don't have to do anything else for me. I don't care. I'm not looking for anything else. I have family and friends and loved ones. You know, I haven't. I'm not some recluse that has no life outside of my job. Yeah. I'm not devoid of love and affection in my life.

39:43You know, I got four older sisters. I got 15 nieces and nephews. I got two beautiful daughters. I've got phenomenal friends, both on the male and female side, who love me to death and never hesitate to show me that. Yeah, I'm good. And so because of that, my claim to fame, what works for me is that I don't get caught up. I'm not, I'm not this dude that walks around. Well, I'm Stephen A. So that makes me better than you. Yeah. You know, I don't live like that. I don't think like that. You know, excuse my language. I shouldn't bleed just like anybody else. You know, I don't think that there are things about me that's more special than the next human being.

40:33What I get mad about is when people treat me as if I'm elevated, as if I'm special, and then get mad at me, you know, when I don't respond the way they want me to respond. That pisses me off because I'm being normal. I'm myself. And they call me a star and, you know, the face of ESPN and all of this other stuff. I'll tell you something that I've heard many stars say, and I totally, totally agree with them. When you become a star, it's not that you changed the people around you have changed sure their expectations have changed their your obligation what they feel should be your obligation to them has changed right they treat you differently they come to you with their hand out figuratively and literally it's not always about money it's about favors you know it could be the littlest thing to the biggest thing it doesn't matter They're always coming to you because you have what they want, but that one is no longer a one.

41:41It's a need in their eyes. Suddenly, every damn thing is an emergency. Every damn thing is of utmost importance. Every damn thing they got to have because if you don't give it to them, you've just squashed their life. But they were doing just fine without these things before they knew you had it. You see, these are the kind of things that happen. and you just have to have the kind of balance in your life to say, fuck off. That's not true. You know it. I've done this for you. I've done this for you. I've done that for you. I can't do every damn thing. You do get to that point. You got to be self-contained.

42:27Yeah. You got to, But you self-contained from the standpoint of just understand you're a human being. Yeah. You know, if a bullet came your way, it'll hurt you just like it would hurt any other human being. Sure. Got into a car accident, it would hurt you just like it hurt anybody else. You know, you got cancer, it'll hurt you just like it hurt anybody else. You know, I mean, you break your knee or your leg or whatever, it'll hurt you just like it hurts anybody else. You know, and when you come to that conclusion, there's a level of normalcy that hits you and it's easy to embrace. And that's what surrounding yourself with those loved ones, with that inner circle really, really helps to insulate you from the BS.

43:15Because you're able to say, hey, you know, I'm very normal. I understand normalcy. they might be looking at me like I'm abnormal, but I know I'm not. And I'm good with that. Yeah. You, you talk towards the end of the book, which I thought was really interesting. You talk about your, your bout with COVID. Was that, was that humanizing for you just to be like, it knocked you on your ass. It sounds like. It almost killed me. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't breathe. And, um, to be in a hospital on new year's Eve, as I wrote in my book, straight shooter to have a doctor tell you 90 minutes before the ball is dropping in Times Square that we're going to try these steroids and these antibiotics if it doesn't work we need to call your family because you're in pretty bad shape you might not see next year to have them show you an x-ray where you're looking at your lungs and a little spot in your lungs could potentially show that you have pneumonia and my entire lungs was covered in white it looked like clouds in the sky you saw nothing but white there on the x-ray yeah um you know i had double pneumonia um to have to go through that to wonder for those three hours, because they said that's how long it would take the medication to kick in.

44:53Yeah. That in three to four hours, you'll know whether or not you're on the road to recovery or not. This should do the trick. To wonder about that, to sit there for those three hours and wonder if I was going to see my family again and stuff like that. Was that a long three hours or a short three hours? How do you feel in that moment? I will tell you this. It wasn't a long three hours because I started feeling the effects sooner. So what I measure, and I'm always good about this, I measure my moment of hardship, my moment of misery or whatever the case may be. And everything is compared to that.

45:38Yeah. So even though I wasn't well, after I took the medication at 1030, by midnight, I knew I was feeling better than I felt at 1030. I wasn't out of the woods. I still wasn't feeling great. But I knew I was better than I was 90 minutes earlier. Right, right, right. And so because of that, it wasn't like, oh, three, four hours later, I felt better. No, incrementally, you felt yourself like gaining a little steam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and based on how I had felt the previous two and a half weeks. Yeah. I knew that I was getting better. It's like in sports. What direction is the momentum going?

46:22That can determine the whole series. That's exactly the case.

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49:09I thought it was really moving too. You said as you were laying there in the hospital, you know, potentially, you know, facing your own death, you thought, why haven't I spent more time with my kids? Yeah, because growing up poor, again, as I mentioned in my book, Straight Shooter, to grow up poor, to struggle the way that I did, to struggle the way that my family did, you grow up with different priorities. yeah like I'm one of those guys that um I thought I knew I thought I knew what love was because of my mom because I loved her so much God rest her soul she's the greatest woman I've ever known and when she passed away in 2017 it's a misery I have not nor do I believe I will ever get over because I miss her so much but without question, I never knew love like the love that I feel for my daughters.

50:17I mean, it's just, it's, it's paralyzing. Yeah. Seriously, because there isn't a moment in a day where I'm not thinking about both of them. What are they doing? Who are they with? Are they safe? Are they good? Are they healthy? They smiling. I'm thinking about the call I'm going to get when they get out of school and they say, Daddy, you know, which is the greatest title I've ever had. The best. All of those things are true. But having said that, because of my upbringing, Ryan, and because of how much we suffered, because of my dad's negligence, I'm one of those dudes, and I've apologized to my daughters about this on many, many occasions.

51:09Daddy will always spend as much time with you as I possibly can. I love you to death. We'll talk every day. see you every day or whatever but the hours in a day what I'm doing is working to secure your future because

51:31it's not an option for me for them to suffer you want to give them what you didn't get I want to give them what I didn't get and it's just not an option man I make sure they know how much I love them I tell them every day every day and all of that stuff All of it's true. But if I have to sacrifice time with them to ensure that I'm securing, providing a better future for them, I've made it very, very clear to them both. that is a sacrifice daddy is going to make and one of the things that makes it a nugget easy and i don't think i've ever said this to anybody but i'm just thinking about it right now you know what makes it easy for me i'm on television they can see you gotta do is click on the channel yeah and they know daddy's working you see that's a big deal yeah to all the men out there that are listening to this, I'm not encouraging anybody to work as much as I work and to make the sacrifices that I make.

52:41I understand I have my own cloth. Other people do their thing. I get all of that. Um, but it's important to me. Like when I'm working, I tell them I'm working. Like I tell them what channel I'm on, exactly what I'm doing. Here's where you can find me because when they're with their friends or they're around loved ones or whatever. Where's daddy? Daddy's on TV. Daddy's right there. See, even if they're complaining that I'm working, they know why and they know exactly where to find me. And I think that kind of quells, you know, the cynicism that you might have because daddy hasn't been around all day.

53:28Well, I think it's a good example. Let them see you work. Let them see someone who cares about what they do, who's good at what they do, who thinks that what they're doing has a positive impact, let them see it. But also know I'm doing it for them. Yeah. See, I'd take more vacations if it were just me. You know, I wouldn't feel this insatiable need to get as much as I can while I can get it if it were just me. Yeah. I would be confident I'll be all right because all I got to worry about is me and I know how to do it out. So I don't have to have everything. Sure. But when you want to make sure the education is right, when you want to make sure to close on their back, the roof over their head, you know, the cars they have access to, you know, everything else that comes with it.

54:12Life. When you want to make sure you're securing their future. You do worry about having enough to provide for them. And so that's the mentality that I take. And I remember that I didn't know where my father was or what he was doing. Right. I just knew he wasn't around. and that he wasn't helping my mother pay the bills. Sure. Well, last question for you. I've always seen you as, and I mean this as a compliment, as an opinion generating machine, right? Sports happen every day. Things happen in the world every day. And you've got the first take on them, right? That's what you do. Do you find, and that's your professional skill, that's your job.

54:52But also, as one goes out through the world, one of the things the Stoics talk about is they go, hey, remember, you always have the power to have no opinion about stuff, right? Because if you have opinions about how everything should be all the time, that's also a recipe for misery, right? Can you turn that off? When you're on TV, you're the opinion generating machine. Are you like that in your private life or is that a skill you can turn on and off? It's a skill I can turn on and off. There's a lot of times in my personal life I have nothing to say. It's none of my business Yeah I know It's ironic In so many ways That I have been A professional journalist For so many years Who morphed into this personality You understand And I am An absolute professional At minding my damn business There are certain things That have nothing to do with me And I'm not even asking I'm not even asking You know You know I know many stars I communicate with them and what they loved about me is I never asked.

55:55You remember years ago, Jay-Z was dating Beyonce. I would go to the 40-40 club in New York. I saw Jay-Z on many occasions. Sometimes I saw Beyonce. I not, one time did I ever ask a single question. It is none of my business. I never asked. I don't have any comments, you know? I mean, because I just feel that's the appropriate position to have. Now, having said that, because of what I do, by virtue of what I do for a living, when I show up on TV, I'm supposed to have an opinion. That's not just ESPN. If I show up on Fox News or MSNBC or CNN, I'm supposed to have an opinion. They're asking me a question.

56:34I got to give them an answer. You know, you're not turning or leaving the TV on the screen to hear me say nothing. You wanted to hear where I'm coming from. And what facts have I deduced to provide the perspective for me that I have? You want to know that. And I have an obligation to tell it to you. But there are many, many occasions where I'm approached in the streets, where I'm home or wherever, where people are asking my opinion and I don't provide it because I'm not there for that. Yeah. And think of all the things that we have an opinion about where our opinion doesn't make a difference. The weather doesn't care what you think of the weather.

57:11The weather is the weather. You know, how you want things to be or how you think they should be, it doesn't change what they are. Yeah. And that's the way it goes. And I mean, there are certain things that don't require an opinion, but there are certain things that are born out of frustration. Yeah. Like. If I left L.A. and it was 85 degrees and the sun was shining and I was driving in Beverly Hills and it just looked like, you know, Beverly Hills and it looked gorgeous. And then I hop on a plane and six hours later, I'm in New York and it's 40 degrees and it's raining and cold and windy. I'm going to say this weather sucks.

57:55Okay. I mean, it's not, it's not something to argue about or whatever. It's of an opinion that I spewed because damn it to me, it's fact and I'm disgusted by it. So I expressed an emotion to exhale. So you're not, you're not a Buddhist monk. You haven't perfectly been able to turn off the opinion generating machine then. No, I'm just, I don't think it's an opinion to me. It's a fact and it's just born of frustration. So it's not something to be debated. It's not like somebody is going to look at me and say, no, it's sunny outside. If it's cold and raining and it's 40 degrees and it's windy, who's debating?

58:31You're just making a comment. It's true. Well, it's a fine line, though, between a comment and a complaint. Well, it could be a fine line, but it also depends on who you're talking to and what platform you're in when you say it. If I'm in a car service or my car and I'm driving home and I spew it to somebody that's in the car with me, that's nothing. If I take an opportunity to go on the weather channel just to complain about the weather, that's different. I love it. Well, you told me you had to go, so I'll get you out on time, man. This is a cool opportunity for me and I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

59:07Take care.

59:14Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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