Stop Taking Yourself So Seriously | Chad Goes Deep

0:28Why choose a Sleep Number smart bed? This message comes from Capital One. The Capital One VentureX Business Card has no preset spending limit, so the card's purchasing power can adapt to meet business needs. Plus, the card earns unlimited double miles on every purchase, so the more a business spends, the more miles earned. And when traveling, the VentureX Business Card grants access to over a thousand airport lounges. The VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash VentureX Business. What can 160 years of experience teach you about the future?

1:05When it comes to protecting what matters, Pacific Life provides life insurance, retirement income, and employee benefits for people and businesses building a more confident tomorrow. Strategies rooted in strength and backed by experience. Ask a financial professional how Pacific Life can help you today. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York. Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

1:33Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

2:24Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another Saturday episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I want to take you back to 2019. I just spent a week in New York, putting out Stillness is the Key. I did a book event, did a bunch of media, and then I was flying to Los Angeles to basically do that all again. My youngest son had just been born also, so I think I'd been gone for a week, so my wife was meeting me there. It was crazy, not getting a lot of sleep, just a lot going on. But I was feeling good about the book. I remember I was staying at the Los Angeles Athletic Club. And that morning, I found out that Stillness is the Key debuted at number one.

3:04That was pretty cool. And then I went for a swim. And then this is my memory of it. I could have the dates wrong, but I am almost positive that I don't. And then I had a podcast to record. and they were coming to meet me at my hotel room, which was at the Los Angeles Athletic Club. They were going to record it there. So these two guys come in and they set up their stuff. And then I get in my chair and we start to go. And they're just two of the biggest bros you have ever heard in your life. Your biggest California bros. And I just remember going, what is this? Is this real? Am I being pranked?

3:43Is this a test of my stoicism? Should I be really polite? Should I get up and leave? Is this like a Borat situation that's like testing my good humor? Am I supposed to play along? I just could not wrap my head around what this was. It was hilarious. They were very nice. And then that was the end of it. And then later, later, maybe they broke character or later somebody told me like, no, this is like a bit. This is what these guys do. And you've probably seen them before. This is like one of their famous clips. All right, counsel, it is 1.15 a.m. Chad. What up, counsel? My name is Chad Kroger. First of all, hang on just a moment.

4:28So you may have a seat until I call you up. Thank you very much. First, I just want to say thank you. Nothing gets me more stoked than six hours of civil service. I come to you from a land called SoCal. and also just want to say that I'm honored to be in this newfound land of Delaware. I wasn't aware that the government had inducted the 51st state, but I'm stoked that you joined America. Welcome. According to our sources, an attempt has been made to suppress their right to party. Not to get too lawyery on you, but this is in direct violation of the Constitution. Our forefathers valued the right to rage without government restriction.

5:06So basically that's what they do. I don't remember if I vaguely was familiar with that, but I couldn't tell. Like, is this that thing or is this just I'm thinking of that thing? But it's this kind of like low-key satire of where I grew up. I probably sound like these people to some of you with some of the things that I say. And we became friends. We stayed in touch. I did the podcast again a couple years later. I watched their Netflix special, which was hilarious. And it's from that Netflix special that I learned that Chad is actually from Sacramento. He went to a high school that I almost went to.

5:45And then I listened to him on Pete Holmes's podcast, which was a great episode of this podcast also. But I listened to him on Pete Holmes. And I was like, oh, this guy's like, obviously, I know he's smart because he wouldn't be able to do this comedy if he wasn't. But this guy's actually really deep, ironically, and really thoughtful and really nice. And so I shot him a note afterwards and I said, hey, hit me up when you're ever in Austin. I'd love to hang out or have you on the podcast. And he did. He was here for some music festival, which he was performing at. He's the best. We talked about how he pulls off this comedy, which to me seems like it must require a certain amount of discipline.

6:26One of my favorite bits is where he walks up to like people who are really into their cars at like classic car shows and stuff. And he just quotes lines from Fast and the Furious as if he made them up. Or another one where he listens to the Fifty Shades of Grey audiobook loudly in his car at gas stations or red lights and just doesn't let on that this is the most absurd thing ever. And he sort of sits in that discomfort that it creates, again, like a Larry David or a Borat. And there's just something, you know, I couldn't do that. I would bust up or I'd be overwhelmed with shame. So we actually did talk a little bit about shamelessness.

7:02Talked about self-consciousness and does that get in the way of happiness or humor? Talked about leaning into your weirdness and then the craft of comedy and a lot more. Chad and JT's podcast, Go Deep, is hilarious. You can check out their YouTube channel. Chad has another YouTube channel called Academy of Chad, where he has a bunch of satirical videos called Chad Philosophy. Let me play a clip from his video, Find Lasting Happiness with Epicurus. You ever feel like you're striving for too much like too much money too much fan too much status And you feel like the stoke is just out of reach and then one day you're out surfing You just got barreled you're in between sets a new tan is coming in the sun's about to set and you think whoa This is peak stoke.

7:46I am now at one with the universe Well, so did epicurus who's all about finding froth in the tranquil joys of friendship and the epicness of existence In his philosophy the pursuit of simple pleasures. Let's freaking dive in dude You can catch him performing stand-up all over the country as well. You can follow him on Instagram at Chad Goes Deep, on TikTok at Chad and JT, and on YouTube at Chad and JT Go Deep. Not everything in stoicism has to be so serious. I think this is really funny. I think you'll like it. And I was really glad he came on the podcast. And I hope you like this episode.

8:27i think the first time i met you was one of the weirdest experiences of my life yeah you guys came to my hotel room yeah yeah yeah and they told me absolutely nothing they were like no it's these two guys they have a podcast this is like 10 years ago i think so like podcasts were still like not real they're like it's two guys they have this podcast they're gonna come to your hotel room you just record it but they didn't tell me it was like this kind of weird satire like yeah joke thing yeah so i was just like who it was like borat or something you know like you're like who are these people and then it's like it was in this uncanny valley between like real and not real and then you guys went you sat down this would have been weird even if it wasn't in character you just went directly into an ad read for like for like for people who you do like the intros and the ad reads separate when they're not there so they're not sitting there but you guys went directly into an ad read for like a manscaping company and these people are in my room for the next hour what is oh man i forgot we used to do that we used to do the ad read right with the guy yeah you know that was really early on with our podcast too because uh we were kind of unsure we just started having guests yeah and so it was in a moment where we were trying to just always be in character so we're like they're like do we be in character do we ask questions in character and we first started out and started like gaining some like traction all of our meetings and like we met with like producers yeah we did them all in character and uh it worked for some but for others they're like yeah you can't they're like what are you doing yeah and we to us we were like no we have to stay in character like we were at this one guy And he's like, guys, stop.

10:15And then our agent was like, hey, if they tell you to break, you can break. And we're like, okay. I don't remember what book it was for. Stillness is the key. Okay. So this was, I guess, six or seven years ago. There's a thing that publicists do, which is like, on the one hand, they're trying to get all the big things that move the needle. And then there's just like other things. They're just trying to like fill up the list, you know? And you never know like which one you're going to get. Yeah. But sometimes they obviously, it's like they have a relationship with someone and they know something.

10:45And they're just like, just trying to get, because it makes, I mean, they're like, hey, I know you have this book about philosophy. You should talk to Chad and JT. That's like your perfect audience. Yeah. So, so like the fact that they booked it was hilarious. And then they just didn't brief me on it at all. They were like, okay, this is out of your wheelhouse, but it's going to be really fun or whatever. Like they didn't tell me about it at all. I know you were like you're doing NPR later in the day you know you did the evening you did like the local news yesterday and then we're just squeezing in Chad and JT nothing nothing we need to tell you about this yeah it's just an ordinary interview and then I'm like what the fuck is happening that's so funny I yeah I didn't uh man it's so funny to look back on that yeah and we probably just left and you're like what was yeah I would love to I like the only reason i haven't gone back to watch it is that it might ruin whatever like i i think so fondly of it but i'm just remembering it being like what is my life right now and and are these people like this yeah because i grew up in california so like it's i think that's what is so compelling about the characters is that they are in the uncanny valley of like you don't if you i think you have to be pretty dense to be like borat this is real right you know like yeah there's a whole world that you would have to go in to buy that.

12:06But like, if you come from California, like this isn't that out of the ordinary. It's weird, but. Yeah, I mean, it's very close to who I am. You know, it's my brother is sometimes like, that's who you really are in a sense, because like in real life or when I'm not sort of like, you know, playing Chad or whatever, I'm like kind of a little bit guarded and not guarded, but just a little bit more introverted. but when i'm like feel like kind of fully like safe with people that's like when i'm and he's like chad is who you really are like on the inside so there's like a michael scottness to it where it's like what is a person who doesn't feel shame which like shame is a constraint on all of us so imagine if you removed shame or self-consciousness uh-huh there's something very freeing but then And also kind of terrifying about that guy.

13:01Totally. Yeah. And I've always admired that those are always my favorite characters in TV. You know, Kramer, Michael Scott. It's like people who go through life who were to you. It just looks like they're in their minds. They're always winning. Yeah. And they're always kind of crushing it. And they're not even aware of like what other people are thinking or what other people think of them. And I always whenever I would watch that, especially watching Seinfeld, I'll always be like, it just felt so freeing to watch for me. Yeah. And so I think that's why I kind of gravitated towards playing, you know, a character like that, because it's just that's kind of how I want to be in life.

13:35Did you ever do the Seinfeld reality tour in New York? No, I haven't done that. But it's like led by the actual Kramer. Is it? Yeah, yeah. It's like that whole thing is real. So, yeah. Remember, there's like an arc in later in the season where Kramer does the Peterman reality tour because he's Peter. It's the whole thing. but um kenny kramer was a comic that jerry and larry david were friends with or lived down the hall from them or whatever they based it on him and then as the show blew up he kind of became famous but he didn't participate in it right he started a real bus tour and i went on it when i was like in high school or something yeah and you're like it's kind of like cool behind the scenes but you're also like there is something like sad and weird about it that like you're like oh it actually wouldn't be fun to be kramer because like in real life this is what kramer is doing exactly yeah doesn't actually have anything going on yeah it's like his main thing but yeah it was weird it's interesting how like movies or tv shows can kind of glorify that like i think a good example is brad pitt's character in once upon a time hollywood yeah cliff booth because he lives in a trailer he's single you know he's quentin tarantino he's like he's basically a loser yeah but when you see brad pitt playing him you're like i want to be that guy yeah and there's an And it's interesting how, you know, in TV and film, it's able to do that.

14:50Yeah, it is. You know, Michael Schur, so he has this book called How to Be Perfect, which is actually a book, it's very smart, but it's a book about moral philosophy. And they have this section in it about like, whether it would be awesome to be Michael Scott or not. Right. Like, is actually that the greatest person to be? Because you're like the Dunning-Kruger effect where you're like stupid, but you're not smart enough to know that you're stupid. Yeah. Ignorance is bliss. And then he kind of goes like, would maybe a better example is like, would it be awesome to be Ron Gronkowski? Right. Because like the problem with Michael Scott is his life is objectively very sad.

15:23Right. He's, you know, cooking bacon for himself on his foreman grill and no one wants to be with it. Like until the relatively close to the end of the show, like his life sucks. but like is there something about this sort of like oafish but good-natured and mostly hitting green lights on the course like would you rather be that than someone with self-awareness yeah i mean the the kind of golden retriever who's crushing it yes yeah exactly i mean that sounds awesome to me yeah he that's ron gregowski seems like a big golden retriever like a derpy dog Yeah. Who actually, from what I've read, is actually pretty smart.

16:06He's like, I only live on my endorsement money or whatever. It seems like he's playing a bit of a character, actually. Yeah. But there's something about self-consciousness, I think, that is probably at odds with happiness. That's different than self-awareness. Right. But that sensitivity to how you're coming off. Well, oftentimes if we're shooting something and like we're kind of in character, it is very freeing. That freeing sense of like just being totally unaware of how other people are feeling is very, yeah. Kind of like what I was saying earlier. That's kind of why I gravitate towards that because it's like that's kind of how I want to live.

16:46Yeah. I'm the fifth child. So I think I was always kind of branded as that when I was growing up. Because you're the baby to everyone? So you're like cute and funny. I'm the baby. They're like, you're going to win the lottery. You're just lucky. Yeah. You know, you just kind of like, you're just kind of cruising through life. And like I studied philosophy in college and, you know, like my older brothers in finance, you know, they're just all very focused on successful. And then I was like, yeah, I'm going to study philosophy. They're like, what are you going to do with that? I'm like, I don't know.

17:12Comedy. Yeah. Steve Martin did it. Yeah. It was funny speaking of self-consciousness because I did this talk this morning. It was like a thousand people. The venue is supposed to seat a thousand people, but you ever get in front of a group and it's like, it's not, I wasn't supposed to deliver the audience. So it's not on me, but you're just like, you're like seeing empty chairs and you're just like, it could be full or it's not full. Why are they not here? Do they leave? So now you're thinking about what you're doing as you're doing it and what you're not doing is doing it. I think art, comedy, writing, sports, like the second you're kind of like seeing yourself as you're doing it, you're out of it.

17:49And there's probably something about being in the character because the character doesn't think about any of that. You don't have to think about any of it and you're just in it. Yeah, I used to, or I still do, like, really enjoy bombing because especially when I started doing that kind of on stage, like, I'd sort of develop the persona on stage. And it's like sometimes, especially early on, audiences would just be like, well, what are you doing? And, like, to me, that was so satisfying because I'm like, oh, they think it's real. And so I kind of found there's, like, a freeingness. Whereas if I'm being more myself, you can kind of hone in, like, you know, if everyone's laughing but there's one guy.

18:23Yeah. not he's like kind of looking at his phone he's just like kind of like looking around you just hone in on that and it's it does kind of like break you from that kind of like performance kind of flow it must be weird for you because if the audience is in on the joke like they know who you are yeah that's much more favorable to you yeah than when you're performing in front just like if you're just going up in front of a at a club or if you're like in front of a city council meeting or whatever, like the character kind of thrives on the, the not receptiveness to it. So in a way, like a bad audience is a good audience for you.

18:57And a good audience is kind of a bad audience. True. Yeah. Like if people, if people are familiar with me, then they're kind of in on the joke and then the surprise isn't there as much. So you kind of have to work to, to, you know, whereas if it's an audience that doesn't know who I am, you know, sometimes it can really pop because it's like the surprise is there from the jump. But as soon as I walk on stage, they're kind of like something's off. And if they buy into it, they're on board for the whole ride. And so it doesn't even really matter about the writing. If I'm doing stand-up, if the writing or punchlines, those matter.

19:33But it's more in just my way of being that I think makes them laugh, which is something I noticed with Sebastian Maniscalco. Are you a fan of his? When I watched him on stage for the first time, the way he walked up made me laugh. And I was like, oh, I want to do that where he had this like Italian kind of like swagger. But it was just so funny to me. And I'm like, man, if you can just like exude like a funny, weird confidence as you walk on stage. Well, because he's playing a character. He's acting like it's him. But he's closer to like Larry the Cable Guy than he is Jerry Seinfeld. In the sense of it's like it's this thing that he's doing.

20:13Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like that's his persona. that's sort of the side of himself that he's honed in on that's that's funny yeah i like stand-up comics who are more like writer comic like they're just doing it to me when it feels like they're performing right then it it gets more towards like one man show or spoken word and then it just it punctures the illusion for me like i think to me great stand-up comedy even though it actually is a highly honed performance that they are just reciting a script for i like the feeling that they're like what am i going to talk about next you know what i mean like that to me that those are more my favorite yeah where it's it's sort of stream of consciousness it feels like stream of consciousness like this even though they know exactly the hour they're performing yeah when they're hitting all the spots but it feels like they're just saying the stuff like i don't like um ted talky right speakers either where they're like they've performed the hand gestures and they like took a class on charisma or something yeah and where it's all scripted and yeah kind of yeah Yeah.

21:13Whereas like Bill Burr, I think Bill Burr is really good at that, where he can rant on stage and it feels like it's all coming from his, or Chappelle. You see Chappelle, he always feels like it's unrehearsed. And he's like, this is just what I'm feeling. And yeah, he's really good at creating that. Because sometimes you'll watch his specials. I'm like, did he just practice this at all? Or is this just how he talks? Yeah, but he must have. Oh, yeah. No one's booking a theater and paying for production to be like, let's hope it's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's like another level of talent where it's...

21:51Yeah, I mean, it's all about making it look effortless or that you're not trying.

22:02Human. Your body has a performance superhighway. 60 ,000 miles of blood vessels that deliver oxygen and nutrients to every cell. This, of course, is your cardiovascular system. It's the foundational system that powers everything we do. Both elite athletes and longevity experts invest directly in the cardiovascular system because supporting healthy blood flow is critical for energy, recovery, mental clarity, and overall performance. That's where human comes in. That's human with two Ns. They started out of research at the University of Texas, near where I live, and have 15 years of experience making award-winning supplements for nitric oxide production and healthy blood flow, now used by over 160 pro and college sports teams.

22:50Human Cardiovascular Health Daily is a plant-based and made from clinically studied ingredients like grapeseed and seed kelp extract. It supports nitric oxide production for healthy blood flow and energy while also supporting blood pressure and helping support the delicate interlining of your blood vessels. Just two capsules each morning will power energy and recovery while also playing the long game by supporting long-term vascular health and healthy aging. Human has an exclusive offer for our listeners. You can visit human.com slash stoic for an extra 15 % off your first purchase. That's enter code S-T-O-I-C.

23:23Stoic at checkout. That's human with two N's dot com slash stoic for an extra 15 % off with code stoic at checkout. We just took our kids to an outdoor performance at the Nutcracker. They had a snow cone and then they went insane in the car ride home. And one of the things I try to remind myself when that's happening is that I don't control my kids' behavior, especially when they're too far gone like that. But I do control how I respond, right? That's stoicism, but it's also what Dr. Becky talks about. Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and a best-selling author, and she founded Good Inside, which is there to give parents practical, actionable tools for handling those everyday challenges with confidence.

24:06My wife introduced me to Dr. Becky's books. I love them. I've recommended them a million times. I've had her on the podcast. And as it happens, Dr. Becky is hosting two live Q &A events for Good Inside members. I am one of them. She signed me up for it about a year and a half ago. I've loved it ever since. On December 1st, you can join Dr. Becky for her How Not to Raise Assholes event, which is about avoiding entitlement and raising kind, empathetic kids. And on December 15th, she's hosting her How Not to Lose It Over the Holidays event, which I'm sure we could all use. As I said, I'm a big fan of Dr.

24:43Becky. She's been a great influence for me as a parent and just as a human being. And Daily Stoic listeners can join for 15 % off with code STOIC15. You just got to head over to goodinside.com to catch the events.

25:03It was funny because so after you guys came, I was like, what the fuck is this? And then a couple months later, whatever, I saw one of the sort of viral clips. And it was very triggering for me because when I was 20, maybe I just started at American Apparel. I think I've told this story before, but I just started American Apparel and the company was like a disaster. So he would just like, there would just be these like girls in his life. He's like, I think we should have another store in Toronto. Go figure it out. You know, he would just like assign these people who had no idea what they were doing to like open a store for a company doing$500 million in sales.

25:39And so he had done this in San Francisco and he had sent this girl to open this store in the Mission District. And actually the Mission District had some weird San Francisco-y law that banned big box retailers, but their definition of a big box retailer was any restaurant or retailer with more than 10 locations. Oh, interesting. So suddenly, to open this store, they thought they'd sign the lease, they're going to open it, they put up the coming soon sign, and then it all came to a screeching halt when these community activists were like, no, no, you're a big box retailer, you can't come gentrify our neighborhood.

26:14and it was going to be subjected to like a city council meeting with like public opinion. And so they were like, Ryan, you have to go. I didn't do this. Also, I have no training in this whatsoever. But they're like, no, no, you need to go address this like city council meeting. And so I go, they told me I would speak first. I had five minutes. So I prepared five minutes of remarks. Well, like so many hundreds of people came that they, I get up there and they're like, actually you have two minutes i don't think i've ever spoken in public before and i so i have to somehow i do my remarks they don't go well and i'm wearing an american apparel shirt like a gray shirt and uh have you ever read a man in full no it's the tom will film i'll give it to you in there but there's this scene between like a lone agent and the the main character of the book and he's like my goal is to give him saddlebags and they go what's saddlebags he's like i'm gonna lay into this dude so much games he's like you're gonna start to see the saddlebags under his arms So you can see pictures of this because it was like covered and I'm just like soaked.

27:14I'm just like, I'm out. I'm losing it. Anyways, so I do my thing and I go, okay, I did my part, whatever. That's as bad as it's going to get. And then they direct me. I have to sit in the front row and then be addressed by the community for the next two hours. Oh, no. Yeah. And these are wackos from San Francisco. These are community activists from San Francisco objecting to a, what they think is a big box retailer gentrifying their neighborhood. So, yeah, I just sat there and I got yelled at. So you were representing that. Representing for two hours. And, you know, it's like this woman gets up and she's like, I was hoping to open like a vintage sex toy store.

27:55Like that was a real thing that she said. And I'm like, what? Vintage sex toy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then this one guy gets up and he goes, and this is why I thought of you guys. It was like pros and again, right. And he's like, he gets up as a pro. He's like, I was here to speak in favor of American Apparel, but that's because they paid me. He was doing performance art where he was pretending that he was a paid plant and then was ripping the mask off to show that he was actually against it and that the corporate interest was trying to bribe the community. and it was just like i'm like what is happening like this dude is doing like there's not even television cameras like he's just doing this art like for himself and then there was just all the people like like what you guys do where they're just getting up and they're just talking about right totally like i can't get my television to work you know or whatever and so i just sit there for two hours one person earnestly spoke in favor and then two hours wow of nose and then i just had to go home when you're sitting there like how are you because i'll watch the council when they're berating the council the council will kind of just like kind of like yeah not even well where you just sort of just yeah and i'm like 20 years old like i have no idea like and and then yeah i'm and it's like i didn't it wasn't my idea to open the store it wasn't my responsibility to open the store i've worked at this place for like six months i don't know fucking nothing wow and i was it was just like what is my life right now i mean now it's hilarious to me but i was just like in the more i was like what is happening yeah did they uh did they give you a script did you write it like i wrote like a little i wrote five minutes of remarks yeah i mean if i'm like hey go up do five minutes tonight and then as you walk on stage they're like actually two you're like this is like a whole there's a whole rhythm like yeah i can't like two is a world of different yeah difference than five and so i think i you know i barely got through my things which i'd written out and even Even if I delivered like some Rudy-esque speech, they would have been like, no, there's nothing I could have said.

30:03It was a foregone conclusion. We should have just eaten the lease from the beginning. Yeah. The punchline to the whole thing is like the Mission District is now one of the most gentrified neighborhoods in San Francisco. It was totally pointless. Yeah. But that was. And did you guys end up, you ended up opening the store? No, I don't think so. Oh, no. No, no. I think they just ate a 10-year lease. yeah i uh that's so interesting because um i'll watch the council too i mean they'll have people just screaming at them every meeting they'll be like calling for them to be you know arrested yeah and then they'll be like all right next agenda item like they're so like they deal with that so much that they're able to just kind of i think they're compartmentalize that yeah yeah kind of like there must be some briefing you get yeah the day after you get elected and they're like, okay, let me tell you how a city council meeting goes.

30:53These are the 20 people that attend all the meetings. This is what they talk about. You cannot engage in any way. These are the red lines that we enforce. And then, you know, just think about what you're going to have for dinner or whatever. Like, because there is a kind of a, they're having to be very self-controlled. Yes. I've only seen a couple instances where the council has responded, usually LA city council, because it gets so heated in there. Right. You know, if someone from the public is saying racist remarks or something, I've seen them actually engage. Yeah. But other than that, they're very, they're able to just sort of take it in and they'll be like, okay, well, I propose this change to the agenda.

31:33Yeah. Meanwhile, someone's just called them a terrorist or something. Yeah. So when we get in the council, actually, people, they enjoy it. They're pumped. Well, because it's totally off topic, but it's not like alarming in any way and it's like it's i don't know it's like a puppy just ran up or something yeah what's he gonna do yeah exactly although some of it's weird it's not like creepy like it yeah you know like yeah it's positive trolling that's what we call it yeah yeah positive trolling yeah yeah it's a lot of fun yeah what is the difference between positive trolling and regular trolling like where do you draw the line i think uh positive trolling is Generally, the joke is on us.

32:11Yeah. So we're always trying to make fun of ourselves. Negative trolling is, I think, when you come in with the intention of trying to elicit a reaction from them. Right. And usually attacking someone or being offensive in a way to get a negative reaction from someone. Right. The famous one where he does the thing during the National Anthem. He sings the National Anthem. He's trying to trample on whatever they hold most sacred. Yeah. you're like just going on this like benign rant around a seemingly nonsense issue. Exactly. Yeah. Sometimes trying to have like a hidden message underneath, but a lot of times it's just being silly and just trying to, you know, put the joke.

32:54That's our main thing is the joke is always on us. We always try to, we never really want to be punching down or making fun of someone. And then if someone gives us a negative reaction, that's sort of on them. Yeah. Like, I remember when we did, like, a video where we were handing out masks in Huntington Beach in, like, 2020. And we were just trying to be as naive and innocent as possible because it was during, like, the, like, lockdown protests. And so we just had a box full of masks and we were handing that in Huntington Beach. And Huntington Beach is, like, weirdly conservative, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:25It's like kind of a— Very conservative. It's like a MAGA, like, dot in the middle of California. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we knew what we were doing. Yeah. it was maybe actually that was maybe more trolling than just positive trolling but the the naivete that we it's like oh we're just handing a mask and then like allowing people to kind of decide about how they want to react is so if it's negative that's sort of we it's on them if that makes sense i feel like weirdly the stoic thing for you guys is like the one standing character must be difficult but like the restraint to take the thing you're doing seriously must be tough Like when you pull up and you're blasting the audio book of Fifty Shades of Grey at a gas station, or you're just going up to these dudes who really care about cars and you're just quoting Fast and Furious as if they're real car observations.

34:17Yeah. Like it only works if you act like it's not the dumbest thing ever. Yes. Yeah. Where it's, they say in comedy, it's like to the character, it's not comedic. Right. character it's you know if you're if you're playing if you're in comedy you're playing a character and you're trying to be funny like michael scott you know steve carell you know i think he's playing that where he believes that whatever he's doing is is right and it and it's like kind of that's what makes sense to him it makes sense makes sense to him yeah yeah so i think yeah it's sort of buying into that where uh you're not uh i think yeah that's just the golden rule is not trying to be funny right it's taking yourself so seriously that it comes but That's the self-consciousness thing that you have to conquer, right?

35:03Yeah. You have to be in the thing doing it. Yeah. Even though if you zoomed out, you know that you set up the premise. So you know the premise is funny. Yeah. And you're doing it to be funny. And yet you have to embody this space, this physical body where you're insisting that it's not funny. Yes. And that would require, I think, a lot of self-control. Yeah. Yeah, the kind of if someone's laughing, they're laughing at you and there's that temptation to kind of break the tension and laugh with them. Like smile to match the you're having to not match the emotion of the person across from you. Yeah.

35:39And your instincts would be like, yeah, smile, break the tension. Let them know that you're joking. Yes. And kind of let them know that you're not. Yeah. Insane. But then the kind of I guess the craft of it is sort of like, no, go deeper into the to the opposite of that. like get more serious get get more and that's actually why it's tough during when we started doing podcasts trying to interview in character because there's like 60 minutes you know yeah and we're like and at a certain point you're like man like i just want to let him know

36:11there is that that is like a discipline i think to to kind of discipline to that kind of performance yeah you have to do that when you have kids where it's like they're telling you something and it's like the dumbest thing ever right and you have to be like oh yeah that's like not just like oh you have to listen to you know the acting of like listening to boring stories but more like i have to take that what you think is a grievous wrong very seriously yeah even though it's comically absurd yeah you know yeah or like you have to take the fear serious you can't you can't just be like no no it's all right or like no it doesn't matter like you have to you have to like first engage with it as serious and then sort of talk them out of it or talk them through it right But your instinct is to be like, what?

36:55You know, like, and you can't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. How many kids do you have? Two. Two. That must be fun. It's a lot. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot, yeah. Yeah, they're like maniacs. How old are they now? Nine and one turned six yesterday, the day before yesterday. But yeah, it's also funny, like my oldest, he took like an improv class in school or in like a club. So then I was like, what happened was I made a huge mistake, which is that I was like, I told him the Michael Scott thing from the first season, The Office, where he's in improv. And in every scene, he like kicks down the door and he just goes like, freeze FBI, which he immediately thought was the funniest thing of all time.

37:36And then he told the other kids in the class. And so it just like essentially broke the class. They all did that. Because like on the Michael Scott level, they just immediately, like they understood what Michael Scott understood, which is like, that's the most intense thing you can do. Right, right. Even though, you know, and so like watching this performance and they're all like trying to do it, you know, it was funny. But then I started showing him other stuff. Like I showed him stuff in the office and then we watched like Saturday Night Live. And now he just like quotes stuff from, and you're just like, oh, how are we like getting the same?

38:07Right. We're like enjoying the same jokes. Yeah. That's weird. Like he really likes like the Nate Bergazzi, like George Washington one, like, because like life is absurd and he doesn't understand why it's like, cause he's always like, how many is several? You know, like, uh, you know, like, so, so at some level he's getting, he's already sort of picking up on like the fucked upness of like why things are the way that they are in the world, you know? Yeah. That must be a trip. Like, uh, it's cause you know, seeing them from a baby to when they're actually starting to develop a personality and like understand things.

38:44And I'm sure that's kind of like, oh, you'll actually understand. Well, to understand something enough to see what's funny about it is like another level of understanding. And then it kind of sneaks up on you like when that's happening. There's one, it's called King Brothers Toyota on SNL. Oh, it's like, it's probably not funny for anyone listening, but it's a Toyota like sales commercial for like some local dealership. But the local dealership is having trouble selling the cars because they put in a Raisin Canes and a Chick-fil-A like near the exit. And you know how like how the drive-thrus back up?

39:21Yeah. And so like the whole thing is about how you have to take exit 260. But if you get in the right lane, you'll get stuck and you can't get into the thing. Right, right, yeah. And it's like going over. And then like we were driving yesterday and we passed like the Chick-fil-A that's in this town. and he goes like hard get hard in that left lane you know and he's like doing the thing and it's like this is what i remember doing with my friends as a kid and now like you're already you're like quoting now we're now we're quoting stuff back together that like really snuck up on me yeah it's so interesting what age do you think you can watch dumb and dumber because i'm trying to think i'm trying to like i'm going back through and like what are things that you know like and and And then it's like, sometimes you watch, oh, fuck, I forgot, like somebody kills himself in the middle of this or whatever.

40:07And then you're like, it's not cursing I don't care about, but it's like some, it's like, oh, wait, there's a weird, like, orgy scene or something. You're like, what is this? So I'm trying to think, when did I watch Dumb and Dumber? What's funny is I think I started watching those movies pretty early. Yeah. I was watching Seinfeld in, like, first grade. And my teacher was like, I was like, what did you do last night? I'm like, I'll watch the series finale of Seinfeld. And she's like, what? and like jt my like comedy partner he was watching like heat when he was like five um so for both of you this is not like an endorsement of doing this early up it's like oh this is why they ended up the way exactly yeah so maybe maybe i'm like you should wait yeah um i remember watching austin powers when it came out i was seven so is that comparable to dumb and dumber i think i think austin powers is more adult than yeah dumb and dumber i think if you're nine i think you're i think you're ready okay you grew up in sacramento right i did yeah where'd you grow up i was so carmichael and east sack so my dad lived in east sack mom lived in carmichael got it yeah yeah and you were were you granite bay well in high school i grew up in fair oaks i was born in gold river and then uh we moved to fair oaks and then we moved my parents didn't want me to go to bella vista okay where'd you go high school you went to granite bay okay yeah yeah yeah all my friends went to jesuit yeah yeah yeah i I think my parents had some illusions of me going there and then like didn't do any work to make that happen.

41:34So then I just. Right. You had to go to. You had to do all this testing and stuff. Yeah. And you had to go to like Sunday school. Yeah. Which I didn't grow up religious. So it was like kind of like I was. My parents sent me to boarding school. So. But my dad was actually considering Granite Bay. Yeah. He's like, should I move to Granite Bay to do Granite Bay or. It was like the new. It's like, you know, when like they opened a new high school is like the best one. Yeah. So like they just, I think they just opened it. Yeah. And that's why they, yeah, they moved there. My grandfather, my mom's dad was a German teacher at Bella Vista.

42:06Oh, really? So like, but for like 40 years. So I think there was like, no. Yeah. Sacramento. Yeah. It's a, it was a great place to grow up. You thought so? You know what? I think I went to a boarding school for high school. Yeah. On the East coast. Yeah. Yeah. And I think something about growing up in Sacramento is like, as opposed to other parts of California, like San Francisco, or if you grew up in LA, it's kind of, I think it grounded me a little bit more, just like kind of, it was a little bit kind of away from the glamour of Hollywood or like San Francisco or something where it's, you're around more normal people, I would say.

42:45Yeah. See, I think that was the problem for me is that it was just normal people. Like, obviously, none of my parents, friends or my friend's parents were writers, but I don't think any of them were entrepreneurs. I think they all had jobs, like all had as normal, boring a job as you could imagine. Yeah. And so if that's what you're meant to do, that's very comforting. I think it is limiting in terms of like your sense of what's possible. Right. You know what I mean? I haven't thought about that. Yeah, because I guess I went to, I was kind of like, went to boarding school. Their parents probably did all sorts of incredible things.

43:21So, yeah, I was exposed to, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, so that's an interesting point because I, to me, it was always sort of like having that foundation of Sacramento. And then kind of going into a world that's a little bit more glamorous and kind of, but yeah, I never really thought about that. Well, like the Nepo baby thing. People think it's that they opened doors and I'm sure they did. And it's just like if your parents are well off, like you're you have more freedom to do things. But I think a big portion of is like your parents showed you that that was a thing you could do.

43:54That's the job. Like Steph Curry growing up in basketball arenas probably contributed as much as the genetics did. He was like, this is a place you go to work. This is how it works. This is what you have to do to qualify for this line of work. You know what I mean? Like, I think if either of my parents had gone to private schools, they would have understood the process for getting your kid into a private school. Yeah, there's legacy admissions, but also just like, you know how that system works. Yes. And so they didn't. They were just like, well, our kid's smart. Can he go here? And it's like, no, there was like a process you had to go through unless you're a genius.

44:30And they didn't go through the process, so they didn't get it. Like knowing like the rules or the norms of spaces, that's, I think that's like the real privilege that gets passed on it. To me, that's the Nepo baby thing. It's like you understand how the system works. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because I remember when I first moved to Hollywood to like pursue acting, my dad approached it. He's a doctor. So he approached it from the academic doctor. He's like, I want you to go to J.Crew, get some sweaters. Yeah. Yeah. Get a haircut. Yes. Like you're going in for a job interview. Yeah. And then you realize, you know, very early on, it's like, no, if you were like quirky, you need to be quirky in order to like stand out.

45:08Oh, it's so funny you said that because so I, so I went to Riverside and because I was like, I want to like Southern California is where it's at. Even though Riverside could not be further, like I might as well have just stayed in Sacramento. Yeah. First off the drive, one's an hour and a half drive and one's a five hour drive. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, but I just thought like Southern California, that's where it's at. And then I remember I got like through someone, I got like this interview for like an internship at like a record label. So I told my parents and they were like, same thing.

45:37They were like, here's our credit card, like go buy a suit. And I bought a suit. I showed up to an interview at a record label in a suit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like I lost the job the second I stepped in. You know, like you would have been like, hey, go buy these 50 albums and listen to them. But to my parents, just like to your parents, not understanding the system, they're like, you got to dress up and then you got to show up and have good answers to the questions. It's like, no, you're actually precluding yourself from having the job by the way they're showing up. So it's like it's understanding how the logic or the incentives of different systems work.

46:13That's like the real power. Yeah. And it's so, yeah, because the first year I was in L.A., I was wearing button ups and I was wearing like, you know, kind of like preppy clothes. and people are like, what are you? Like, this isn't you. And I'm like, and then once I like, I started doing standup and I started teaching surfing as like a day job. And I started to like, you know, get tan and kind of blonde streaks in my hair. And then people were kind of responding to that. It's like, oh, like that's who I should be. Not this kind of like. You got to act like you've been here before. Exactly. You're acting like no one wants, you're acting, you're showing that you're a tourist.

46:49Yeah. and my dad was always like starting off he's like he's like you know i really think you should try to get a job as a soap opera actor because it's it's consistent it's a day job he's like he's very focused on it's very you know he's very he's always thinking about our futures and like worried about it he's like he's like this is like the most consistent thing you could do this for 40 years and get a steady paycheck you may want to kill yourself but he's like he's like general hospital that's that's my dream yeah yeah yeah that's so interesting yeah it did take me a little bit because uh a while to to embrace that like no you have to embrace your weirdness especially in something like entertainment yeah um you know kind of lean into it we almost moved when my parents were thinking of the granite bay thing they were also like my dad got a job offer in tahoe and so they were thinking and i think about like i think i would have become chad or jt if do you know what i mean like because we had some i had a friend in sacramento and they're around the same time yeah they moved to you know and like i think about like what he's doing and how his brother i'm like oh okay this is actually like a huge you probably don't want your kid to grow up in paradise i thought about that too my dad said he had like an offer to work in san diego yeah and he also almost worked in redding but not quite paradise not quite paradise but san diego So growing up, I'd be like, what?

48:09Yeah. La Jolla? And he's like, I don't like it. It's cloudy. I'm like, what? But yeah, looking back on that, it does seem like a little bit of a hindrance. Because I feel like it might create a lack of motivation. Yeah, or you're just around. I don't know. Maybe it's who you're around. Yeah, it's something. Because it's funny that you mentioned San Diego. Because I used to go like, why do we live in Sacramento? And they're like, it's close to San Francisco, close to Tahoe. And I'm like, so it's primary selling point is its proximity to two other better places. Yeah. It's like the parking lot. Because now they retire.

48:46They live in nice places. And I'm like, why did you live 50 years in a place that sucked for hopefully 30 years in a place that doesn't? Yeah. And so I'm like, San Diego, you could have just split the difference. Yeah. But yeah, I think there's probably something good to grow up in like a normal, regular place. Like, yeah, kids who grew up in Manhattan. I'm like, what is your life like? Oh, yeah. I went to high school. Kids. Yeah. It's it's. But I like what you're saying, too. It's like there's there's that mix of like of like having kind of sort of a grounded base that kind of keeps you humble.

49:18But also being exposed to, you know, people who actually who really kind of. You need to know it's possible. Yes. And I think like it wasn't until I went to college. Actually, I just I just invited. I spoke at the college I went to. and like so what happened was like i got in and they sent us like in the summer before we started to this like seminar that was taught by this professor who was a novelist yeah and we had to like read her novel and we get the book and it's like a real book like from a real it says like new york times bestseller like it was a real and i'm like oh this is a thing that people do like i i loved reading but like i had the same relationship to books as i did to movies you know I know they exist, but I have zero conception of how they get made and who gets to make them.

50:05It's like a rock star. Like, yes, there's 20 people who get to do this, but it's not a thing that regular people can do. And I met this woman. Her name is Susan Strait. And she's sort of a California novelist. And it's like, oh, you're a regular person and this is your job. I got more out of that in the college experience than any classes that I learned. Like just the immediate exposure to how a whole field or like a world that I didn't know existed existed. Yeah. Which if I stayed in Sacramento would not have occurred. Totally. Yeah. I think for me, it's being exposed to the kind of people where you know it's possible.

50:47And for me, it's like I knew nothing about Hollywood. I knew nothing about how the same thing, like movies get made. I wanted to shoot a sketch. I didn't understand really the lighting. He's like, we need to set up lighting. I was like, what? I had a huge amount of naivete. But I think that served me well in the sense that I had seen people, been around people who had kind of followed their dreams. And so I was like, yeah, I could do that. There's something like there's this weird confidence where I could totally do that. And then when you get in it, I was like, you kind of learn everything. But I think that that kind of just having that knowing inside your head of like, oh, I could totally doing that.

51:27And there's just thrusting yourself into it. Well, that's so obviously my contention is that ego is generally bad. Yeah. And it fucks people up. Yeah. But you do see, especially in the arts, that ego, because it sometimes resembles confidence or because it ignores obvious dangers or worst case scenarios or like logic or appropriateness. it sometimes is advantageous yeah so like naivete can be helpful because like you don't know like yeah you you just tried to do something the odds were a trillion to one but then there's also like the ego of like yeah i'm worthy of this you know like yeah like i you should you should give me millions of dollars to do this thing or yeah like i'm totally qualified to do this yeah and like the ego like i've i know this one author i've known him a long time and like i think his superpower is he asks for stuff that he has zero business asking for do you know what i mean like and he never feels uncomfortable about it and i don't i don't think he's like pushing through the discomfort yeah and i don't even know if it's like confidence i think it's just more like he's not even aware yeah that it's a thing that a normal person would be like what yeah

52:52Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation. location getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

53:37We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you.

54:16Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

54:30I like an ego's enemy, you know, always be a student. I always try to remember that, just having that mindset of like learning from people and always trying to get better and working on the craft. But yeah, I think there's kind of a mix of like that, always being a student, like that humility and having that mindset. But also, yeah, just this, do you call it ego or something of just like this kind of like, oh, yeah. You're going to go up to the head of a network and be like, you should give me a show. Yeah. And it's like, you can't do that. but it sometimes it works for that there's some people that it works for totally and then you're just like fuck wait is that what i'm supposed to be doing yeah or is that also that person's achilles heel yeah yeah i think it there's probably more cases where it totally doesn't work and then there's like there's few unicorns where they're like it just works out for them yeah they just walk through raindrops like their whole every time they ask they never hear no yeah they get the right person at the right time.

55:29They just get stuff they have no business getting that other people had to work very hard to earn. There's just a kind of like, yeah, it's like what they say, like, may you have the confidence of an average white man, you know, just like, just the world is my oyster. Yeah. It's like, okay. Yeah. Do you think there's something to that mindset where like it just in the way you come off to people or something where it just creates scenarios where things tend to work out or i think if you're not looking very closely or you're not very informed yeah like you're not savvy ego and confidence look very similar right like mania can look like charisma yeah but if you so if you've never been around someone to be like oh this is what a crazy person does yeah you're like i'm pumped around this guy you don't realize like it's gonna crash at some point yeah and i think especially if you're not confident that the confidence of egotistical or narcissistic i mean like you look at the first couple people that i work for i was clearly searching for something you know like some daddy issues stuff yeah yeah um and it's funny because i look at my my sister has that so it's like clearly something in the upbringing we're like we want to work most people see that kind of boss and run the other way we're like i love it here yeah this is normal, you know?

56:51But yeah, I think there's a lack of awareness if it works for you until it doesn't work for you. And then you tweet something and you're like, what? You know? What do you mean? Totally. On a long enough timeline, it becomes a disadvantage. That's why I think you can confidently go like, ego's the enemy. But it clearly, I mean, there's obviously an extraordinary amount of very successful, very egotistical people. Yeah. I just think it's two things. One, like the myth of, was it Krosis, where it's like you can't, you got to wait till the end till you judge a person happy. But I also think unless you're really, really studying them closely, you're not seeing all the ways that they actually could have been more successful.

57:35Right. So it's like maybe, yeah, that person's ego makes them shameless enough to ask for stuff that they have no business doing. But by the same token, they tend not to do the work to then earn the thing because they think they're entitled. Like, you know what I mean? Like the confidence to get like, it seems like confidence to be like, give me the shot. Game's on the line. but like actually a great athlete is like they know they have to do the work to earn that you know yeah and if you're just like no no give it to me but you don't have the goods yeah then you're gonna lose said game when it's on the line yeah i see what you're saying i think that's yeah it's it's the the confidence to to want to get the opportunity to to to put yourself in that position even when i was starting out is it was like you know there's these things called bringer shows for stand-up have you heard of that like basically you get stage time if you bring five friends you if you bring the audience you get stage time so early on i like did like an open mic and i like there's a bringer show that yeah we can give you stage at the we can give you stage time at the comedy store and i'm like amazing yeah and yeah just bring five friends so immediately i was like yeah i'm already on stage at the comedy store this is crazy and then i quickly you know I wore out all my friends.

58:49I'm like, they were like, dude, we're not coming to any more shows. I'm like, oh. And like, it was this thing where I had like the naivete or to be like, no, I can be on stage at the comedy store. But then quickly learning, I'm like, oh, no, it takes, what it really takes is two to three open mics a night. Yeah. Every night for 10 years. Yeah. You need a certain amount of shamelessness to get up and do the thing when you're bad, which you invariably are at the beginning. But you also need like the humility and maybe even the self-loathing to like think that you're bad. Yes. So you do the work to get good.

59:27Sometimes people will have just the confidence or the chutzpah to be like, I can fucking do this. Yeah. And then they get up there and they so live in their own bubble that they're just bad, but they're not feeling the shame of being bad and then doing the work to get good. But so you're, you just, that's how you stay shitty for a long period of time. And you see that a lot. Like the people who will get off stage and be like, man, I crushed. And you're like, no, you didn't. Yeah. If you walk off feeling that you crushed, it's like the best in the world don't feel that way. No. So that you feel that way.

1:00:01So that's where ego is the enemy because it's making you stay as you are. It's probably more pleasant to not feel shitty. Yeah. But the shitty is like Ira Glass talks about this. He's like, there's a taste talent gap when you start and you have good taste, which is, you know, what is funny or, you know, what's beautiful or, you know, what's good writing. But like you can't do it. But the desire to bridge that gap is like the propulsive force that makes you good. But if you're just like, maybe you have good taste, but then you're also biased when it comes to yourself or you're delusional when it comes to yourself.

1:00:39that's a problem because now you're just not you're just like confidently being shitty like just because you believe you can do something you're not gonna be able to do it but just because you believe you can do something is not even close to sufficient to being able to do it yeah it's always having this kind of a this mindset of like no there's always room for improvement yeah like you're never perfect always a student that's one of my favorite things is just because like you know you'll see like bill burr go off stage at the comedy store and he to me i'm like he just crushed yeah but to him he's like oh that one bit like i i'm not getting it right you know he's there's that criticism there's like self-criticism of like no i need to improve this to really kind of it's always perfecting it it's kind of never reaching that destination i think well dr drew did a study many years ago of he as guests would come in to love line he gave them like this narcissistic personality test because like it's interesting like you you'd think you'd be able to study narcissism, but most really successful narcissists are obviously inaccessible to like clinical research, right?

1:01:44Most studies are done on like college students for class credit, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was able to give this narcissistic personality test to like all the guests. So like a range of celebrities and musicians, and then also like reality TV stars and whatever. And what I remember from the study is that they found that, yeah, like most celebrities have some level of narcissism but it's this interesting question of like are narcissists attracted to celebrity or does celebrity make you narcissistic it's probably a little of both but one of the things they found was that the more technical the thing you did was the less narcissistic you were so like drummers might be very famous because they're in a huge band but what they do is really fucking hard yeah and it's like a craft that you love so it's like inherently humbling and it's inherently about like solving this like puzzle you know versus like someone who was on the real world road rules challenge is like attractive in good shape made a good like pitch video yeah and then is maybe like dramatic so like they they're both famous but one is getting their ass kicked by the craft of the thing.

1:03:04And the other one is mostly just thinking about like, how can I get more on TV? Yeah, it's like the craft itself humbles you and keeps you in check. Yeah. And yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think to just be an actor and then become famous, obviously acting is a craft, but it's not a craft you get as many reps in as other things because it involves other people, right? but stand-up is like a thing you're going and doing every night and it's whether you're doing it for a thousand people or 10 people it's fucking hard and you get humbled by the audience yeah if you're not improving if you're not constantly putting your a game forward the the audience will humble you and i feel like for actors if you're making your living as an actor most of the time you're not acting yes that's what i mean yeah you're not getting that many reps yeah you're you're acting you know maybe six months out of the year and a lot of time it's just hurry up and wait You're just sitting on set.

1:04:00Like how many movies is even a great director going to do in their life? Yeah. I mean, five. Five. You know? Yeah. So a lot of times you're not doing the thing, but you are, if you have succeeded, you're being the person. You're being the noun versus the verb. Right. You're walking around, you're on panels, you're talking to classes, you know, you're negotiating contracts, but you're not like, fuck, how do we get this shot right? Yeah. You know? It's more people asking you, like, how do you come up with that? Yeah. How did you come up with that shot? And you're like, oh, well, you know. Yeah. I feel lucky because, like, my first book came out and did well.

1:04:36And then I wrote this. But the Stoic stuff was much more gradual. And then I know people who, like, their first book had just, like, crushed. Now you're the person instead of, like, trying to be the person. You know, I spend a lot of time, a lot more time writing than being the writer. If your first thing just crushed, now you're the guy. Yeah. The person who did the thing. And that, I think, can be destabilizing and disorienting. When you first started writing about stoicism, was there like a light bulb moment for you? Well, actually, Dr. Drew introduced me to stoicism. Really? You didn't know the story?

1:05:10Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, no, it's ridiculous. I was writing for the college newspaper in Riverside. And I got this call one day. No, I think they put like a slip in my mailbox at the paper. Anyways, Trojan Condoms was sponsoring like a conference of college journalists. And they're like, do you want to go? And I was like, fuck yeah. You know? And so I went and he was the speaker. And afterwards, because I used to listen to Loveline in my room every night before bed. And I was like, hey, you seem really smart. Like, what books would you like tell a kid like me to read? And he was reading the Stoics.

1:05:42Really? That's how I got introduced to it. Wow. So I read the Stoics first. Like I read it when I was 20. And it sort of blew my mind. I was like, this is what I want to do and I want to write about. And I had a blog. Like I started a blog the day I graduated from high school. So, which I just realized is 20 years from like tomorrow. Oh, cool. You know what? Like, so I've been doing this. I realized I've been doing this for 20 years now. Yeah, yeah. But that's what I wanted to write about. And then I had this marketing career and I knew I wanted to write about that, but I understood at some level that no one was going to let a 20 year old write about ancient philosophy.

1:06:17Right. So that's why I worked for Robert Greene. But I knew I had to do the other books first. And then I could write about what I wanted to if I, after you have a little bit of heat, then people are willing to take a shot on something crazy. Yeah. You worked for, what did you do for Robert Greene? I was his research assistant. Oh, you were? Okay. For the 50th Law and Mastery and then a little bit on some of the other books. Yeah. He's awesome. So I was maybe like 23 or 24 and I wrote this article about stoicism and this publisher found it and they were like, we'd like you to do a book about this.

1:06:50and I was like Robert like I have a book deal what do you think and he was like no and I was like what do you mean he's like he was like really blunt yeah it was nice but he was like you have to say no to this he's right he was like it's too early you're not qualified to write this book you'll be a better writer later and I'm very glad I listened to him but like you think you're ready and you're probably not ready it's similar in stand-up like when you start you if you're getting laughs a lot of times it's it can be just the you know joke structure or whatever and but you as you keep doing it you notice a difference in laughs and it's and it's you know when i was like 24 i'm like oh i'm gonna talk about partying in college because like you know and you don't realize at the time that how much life experience informs like that your relatability and like how much you can connect to an audience like no like most audiences they don't want to hear from like a 23 year old who just totally that's exactly what robert was saying yeah and and like you think these people are screwing you over by not giving you shots yeah you know like you're like just if they would just let me do i can do i'm ready and they're like no wait yeah you think you're being like helped like i remember on my first book so i i hired a publicist for trust me in lying i remember it was twenty thousand dollars i had to pay twenty thousand and they were like here's what you do you make a list the campaign we agreed to is i picked twenty thousand dollars and i picked 20 outlets that i wanted to be on the daily show you know cnn i picked all the things right yeah and like that's what i was paying there's obviously no guarantees but that's and they got zero of the things right like not one of the things yeah i have subsequently checked i have subsequently gotten almost all the things on that list like over the next 15 years i did get all of those outlets.

1:08:35But I thought like either they were not doing a good job or like these gatekeepers are like fucking me over. And like, if I had gotten any of those 20 things the first time, I feel like maybe my whole career would have turned out differently, like in a negative sense, because I thought I was ready and I wasn't even close to being ready. There's a story I actually have in my, in the wisdom book about this like samurai master and the student comes to him and he goes like, I'd like to become a master. How long will it take? And he says, like, it'll take 10 years. And he goes, no, no, I'm very serious.

1:09:08I'll pay extra. Like, I'll work really hard. How long will it take? And he goes, 15 years. And then he goes, no, no, no, you don't understand. I don't have that much time. I want to speed the process up. What do I have to do? And he goes, okay, it'll take 20 years. Right. And like, you think you want it to happen sooner or faster and you almost certainly don't and if you got the opportunities not only you're not getting screwed over by not getting the opportunities early you're probably being given a gift yeah we kind of experienced that with um we got a show on netflix yeah and it was great the whole experience was great and and but to me it was like actually i was listening to ego as the enemy a lot during because I'm like I was like got to keep the ego in check like don't become like too and you know it kind of like it was like the dream especially growing up is like if you're a comedian like getting a tv show you're like that's the career maker and to me I was like when this comes out I'll you know I'll be cruising you're a made man a made exactly and like a whole experience is awesome and and we're really proud of how it came out but it came out and next day it was you know you're kind of like yeah and nothing happened where's the parade yeah exactly yeah yeah and i'm saying i'm like i was miserable for like two weeks where i was like and and um my fiance was kind of like what's your deal you just expect everything to be easy from that point and to and then but it kind of humbled me in a sense to where i was like i was like oh i just i need to get back to that open mic mentality of just getting back to the craft and yeah and just putting the work in every day like there's there's there's never going to be a moment where you're kind of just on easy street.

1:10:51Cause you think for someone else, you're like, if they would just put this on the homepage of Netflix, it would blow up. Yeah. And then everyone will, and you think that you think that's what you want. Yeah. I remember once I read this thing from one of the founders of Google where they were saying like early on, they knew that the algorithm was getting better every day. Right. And so that actually understanding that made them not feel anxious or slighted when they weren't getting press. Right. Because they were like, every day later the press comes, the better it will convert because the thing is better.

1:11:23Again, I'm like, I'm thinking, hey, I need to be like, this is my first book. It's about this thing. Why am I not on The Daily Show? Why am I not getting this thing? And it's like, first off, I would have almost certainly been an underwhelming guest because I'm 25 years old. I never like, I think for my first television appearance, I'm going to go into the fucking lion's den of like one of the funny, you know, like, who am I to think I'm going to pull this? off, right? And then also, let's say I had, then however many hundreds of thousands of people are watching, some percentage of them are going to buy that book.

1:11:55And you know what they're going to think? This is an okay first book. I'm much happier that it happened 10 years later, and I had gotten 10 years better at the thing. Obviously, this is contingent on you not quitting or, you know, like bouncing out, like you have to have that sort of stick to it-ness. But yeah, the idea like to know, like, no, I'm getting better every day. So actually, like, I don't need the attention right now. I'm just going to keep doing the thing. It's probably a better when people go, wait, isn't humility like a disadvantage? No, that's actually it's actually kind of a confidence because you're like, I'm not going anywhere.

1:12:35I'm getting better. I'm just going to do this fucking thing. And like, yeah, if you're like you get a show on Netflix, you're like, I made it. I'm amazing. that's like as good as you're going to get. But if you're like, and I'm doing standup tomorrow, then you're going to be that one rep better plus a TV show. Exactly. Yeah. And it's, you think like, I remember I was like, oh, I'm sure, you know, after this show comes out, we're going to be playing theaters, standup, you know. And I'm so glad it didn't turn out that way because like we didn't really tour before that. So it, you know, it gave us the opportunity to tour, which is amazing, you know, but it's, you know, it's clubs and it's, and you go from like standup in LA to where you're doing like 10 minute sets.

1:13:13And you realize very early on that like holding an audience for 30 to 40 minutes is something entirely different. And giving people a show is something entirely different than doing 10 minutes at the improv. I'm so grateful that it humbled me in a way to where it's like, oh, now I understand how to put on a show. Now I understand what I want to, if I go on the road, if I'm playing to a crowd of people, I know what I want to give them. I now have the skills to give them something to where they leave feeling satisfied yeah and if everything you'll see that too with people like early on if like the industry is very hot on them they're like they're like you you're the next chapelle like it kind of ruins their trajectory totally no i think um one of the blessings and curses of social media is that it can just it can skip all that and so if you don't have the goods, you're not going to develop the goods.

1:14:11It's like if you decide to get into sports because you're really tall or you're just really strong or like, you're not going to develop the technique. You want to be genetically gifted, but not so much so that you're used to coasting. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah, you notice, like, I noticed this like with people who like, they have a big podcast and then like, they'll sell a book or like a TV show, but it's like, it's not that podcasts are easy it's just that you didn't start as a writer yeah and so you just think that because you succeeded over here that transfers over here and it's like no this is a totally different medium and that's it's actually a much more demanding medium because you're doing all the work yeah and so i'll notice it's like oh you have the goods to carry on an hour conversation or even a three-hour conversation yeah but you can't do a book that might take 20 hours to read like that's so much like yeah that's it you just realize like people were blessed by the algorithm but they were also cursed by the algorithm because they're not developing like the all-around skills required to succeed in different mediums yeah and and you see it too of like and people nowadays are I just keep citing like Bill Burr and Bargatze, but like they were, you know, in their 30s.

1:15:31Comedy is interesting because it's one of the few that you actually do get. Like music, it's like, sure, but culture also favors you when you're young. So there's something raw and authentic about it. And then there's an exploration. It's like sports. Whereas like comedy, oftentimes the biggest comic in the world does have 10, 20, 30 years of experience. Because it's not as, it's not photogenic. But there's something not like where we're more generous with who we allow to succeed in the medium. Yeah. And that's so it's that's a it's a really good example of like, no, no, fucking do your act. Get really good at it.

1:16:05That's how you succeed. Not like these tricks and whatever. I'm being maybe a little bit dismissive of social media, too, where it's like you also see people who are like I see this where like there's people who know more about philosophy or know more about like the technical stuff or maybe they're even better writers. and then they think like the social media stuff is easy. Right. And it's like, I don't think you actually understand how hard it is to take a complex philosophical lesson and make it accessible to millions of people because most people not only aren't interested, they're anti-interested.

1:16:40Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like they were dying. Like people are like, oh, he's a popularizer or something. And it's like, people weren't dying for me to do this. Right. You know what I mean? Like they had - stereotypes preconceived notions yeah they were not like there's a headwind yeah and so yeah it's like that that's where ego is the problem you like the midas touch is a cautionary tale like if you think you have the golden touch you're gonna fuck shit up because you're not gonna do the work yeah to be careful about the other thing totally and it's um there's also conversely with social media there's people who come along and be like i know the tricks of the algorithm like here's like how you know here's how you hook the audience and and so and then so So people who are trying to like make it big on social media, they'll, you know, they'll create kind of trash content because they're like, oh, this will get views.

1:17:27And but they're garbage views. Garbage views. They might get the views, but there's no substance to like whatever following that creates to where there's no actual relationship because there's nothing there. Yeah. You're not creating like if you're trying to create fans, you're not creating true fandom because it's just. Yeah. So I think it's having that realization that in every there's no there's no, you know, free parking or yeah you know well i bet for you like the viral uh city council meeting stuff yeah probably does the best yeah but like who goes and sees that person yes in a in a theater because it's not a city council meeting exactly so you have to you're like would i rather have the city council thing do 10 million views yeah or this like funny sketch or bit that i came up with to a hundred thousand views one is much smaller but probably much actually better for you yeah because the goal isn't just to have a large number of numbers yeah next year account it's to have fans yeah oh yeah i learned that too it's a it's like virality does not translate to you know uh a career in the sense of like of like yeah you need to yeah creating a relationship with the fans or like getting that like people go to see certain comics because they love their stand-up yeah and And so it's not like just by being popular.

1:18:49And a lot of times, too, sometimes people will become popular and then they'll get people to come out. Yeah. But they don't have the goods and then they just ruin that. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's like, so it's understanding that there's, you got to work hard at everything. Yes. And were there any other notable figures in culture kind of talking about philosophy in the way that you were? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, this was definitely, I started writing in 2000, I mean, I started writing about stoicism in like 2007 and 8. So like well before even social media and well before influencers.

1:19:27So that wasn't really the model. That came later. Like in the 80s, there were some authors that did books about like Machiavelli or books about Genghis Khan or the art of war that popularized them like to Wall Street. Right. And I'd read about that. I was like, oh, that's interesting. They were able to like take this thing and make it popular to people who were trying to use it in a different sphere. And then obviously I knew Robert Greene and Robert's sort of a model for that too. So I had some sense that you could take something that was esoteric or impractical and make it accessible to people.

1:20:01So I had that. And then I think people always think there's some plan, you know, they're like, you know, like, how'd you know? It's like, I was actually writing about marketing books. and then I wrote about like the order didn't exactly happen in the way people thought it did right I was at a day job so kind of like none of it really mattered you know but then you you add it wasn't like I was like okay I'm gonna do this and then this and then this and then in here it's more like I'm doing this thing that I really like and then I'm looking at other people it's like oh like here's here's Instagram well like people post quotes let's do that and then I was like we noticed like for instance we would post like the quotes and then i'd be like i have a new book out and then they'd be like who who are you yeah i was like oh they're following the account for the quotes but i don't know that that's i'm doing it and so part of the videos and the other stuff came from like needing to make the connection between stoicism and me that sort of translator popularizer of it right and so it's kind of you make these individual decisions as you go and then later people are like well this was obviously the plan right no i was just going from cool thing to cool thing yeah that's cool yeah it's um i remember when i first read because when you first came on our podcast the book was stillness is the key and so i read it and why did you guys even have me did you know who i was or was it just you like thought it was a funny pitch you know uh jt's girlfriend at the time yeah my co-host oh we got an email i think for you from your publicist and uh his girlfriend at the time was like oh i love his books you just have him on yeah yeah and um but then i like i i read the book and i studied philosophy and i love it and so it's just like what i love to read about the most and i think the way you were able to deliver it in like a way that's just you know sometimes you read these philosophy books they're so dense you're like i was reading like nietzsche i'm like what is going on yeah exactly it's like It takes like so long to get through a page and understand what you're reading.

1:22:04And then you're like, is this actually good? Or is someone just telling me that it's good? Right. Like, I don't know. Yeah. I even reread Meditations during COVID. And even that, you know, it's, you really got to take your time. And so it was such a cool thing, you know, stumbling upon your work. Likewise. Yeah. Oh, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great meeting of the minds. Yeah. You want to go check out some books? Yeah.

1:22:36Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

1:23:04Look, ads are annoying. They are to be avoided, if at all possible. I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like the daily stoic going so if you want to support a show but not listen to ads well we have partnered with supercast to bring you a ad free version of daily stoic we're calling it daily stoic premium and with premium you can listen to every episode of the daily stoic podcast completely ad free no interruptions just the ideas just the messages just the conversations you came here for.

1:23:58And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public. And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into Stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium, and we are offering a limited time discount of 20 % off your first year. Just go to dailystoic.com slash premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away.