The David Cross Episode

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1:09Ryan Holiday: If you're hiring now, then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. We just got back from an amazing vacation in Italy. I'll bring you some clips from it over the next couple weeks. I recorded a bunch of stuff while we were there, although it was as hot as it has literally ever been. It's one of the best family trips we've ever had. And we stayed in this amazing palazzo that we booked on Airbnb. It was like 500 years old. It had all these Roman funerary headstones in it, which is this crazy Memento Mori thing. It was like staying in a museum. The hosts were incredible. They lovingly restored this place.

1:47Ryan Holiday: They took amazing care of it. And by listing their place on Airbnb, they get to share this amazing experience with people from all over the world and get funds to put towards upkeeping and restoring their place. If you're planning a trip this summer, it's worth considering listing your place on Airbnb. It can be a great way to help offset the cost of your vacation and earn a little extra money to put towards your next adventure. Your place might be worth more than you think. And all you gotta do is go to airbnb.com slash host to find out more. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

2:28Ryan Holiday: Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. cast, I guess people think of Stoicism as being very serious about self-command, about containing emotion. So where does that leave humor? I actually think the Stoics are hilarious. There's a bunch of jokes all throughout the Stoics, especially in Marcus Aurelius' writing. I mean, there's even a Stoic who dies of laughter. The joke, sort of one of those, you had to be there. It's funny to hear that Chrysippus died of laughter. So I guess that's funny too. But my point is humor and stoicism, they're certainly not mutually exclusive.

3:07Ryan Holiday: And in fact, I think some of the best stoic observations are funny. In any case, a stoic is not going to go around getting offended, insisting that other people take things very seriously because, you know, that's focusing on something that's not in your control. And I think humor is a sign of wisdom as well. I have a chapter about this in the wisdom book. I've been trying to get my kids into comedy. been listening to stuff. Stuff that's, you know, a little bit more appropriate to them. Been listening to Jim Gaffigan and Nate Bragazzi, little Mitch Hedberg here and there. I have not let them listen to today's guest just yet, although they've seen some clips of him from Arrested Development.

3:48Ryan Holiday: David Cross is one of the funniest people in the world. He's a comedian, he's an actor, he's a writer, best known for co-creating and starring in Mr. Show with Bob and David. He was Tobias on Arrested Development. And had a very long career in stand-up, political satire, absurdity, ridiculousness, social criticism, and then just, you know, just straight up funny. And in today's episode, David and I get into a little bit of all that. We talk about comedy. We talk about free speech. We talk about political correctness. We talk about parenting and more. And I think I really like this. I loved his new special, The End of the Beginning of the End.

4:26Ryan Holiday: You can watch it on the 800-pound Guerrilla Media YouTube channel. He just did this new documentary with Bob Odenkirk, his longtime collaborator and friend. Bob and David climb Machu Picchu, where they climbed the Inca Trail in 2024. He has a whole bit about that also in the special. It's funny. I thought that was one of my favorite parts. David won an Emmy when he was writing on the Ben Stiller show. His work is great. You're going to like it. This is funny. Stoicism doesn't have to be super serious. and we will just get into it. You can follow him on all platforms at David Cross Official and do check out his new special.

5:05Ryan Holiday: You can watch it for free. As I said, it's great. And let's get into it. There's someone else we both know, Maria Semple. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She just wrote a book about stoicism. Really? Yeah. Her new novel, which is going to be huge because it's Oprah's book club pick. I loved the first one. Bernadette? Yeah, I loved it. So this one is, the main character is a stoic philosopher. And she's a tutor to these two rich kids in New York City. Okay. But she was just here a couple weeks ago. Yeah, I just saw her. I was in a play and she and somebody else I know came to the play. Yeah, just saw her. But I hadn't seen her in quite a while.

5:47Ryan Holiday: Yeah. At least 10 years. Yeah, you would have known her, I guess, from Arrested Development? Yeah, and I think prior to that, because I knew her ex-husband or partner from the Simpsons group. I knew a bunch of people who went over to the Simpsons and wrote kind of around the Mr. Show, after Mr. Show. So just, you know, the same community. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, I'll give you a copy. It's really good. But there's not a lot of good novels about Stoke philosophy, so that's interesting. How did you come to find any of this stuff? uh stoicism yeah i didn't i mean i uh it's not a it's not something i practice or anything i i know i have a a loose idea of what it is i know it's you know something i learned in high school at some point never really put into practice or anything like that but it's basically i could be no i want to hear it this is fascinating it's basically uh we have no control over external situations yes uh how we respond to those things is and the and the way we respond by not being um i i'm i'm thinking of these like corny bumper sticker things like not letting not letting it get you down right but um uh that seems simplistic but not um how you respond react to those things that you don't have control over and understanding that and not letting that get you off track too far.

7:20Is that something? No, no, I think it's very close.

7:23Ryan Holiday: And also not letting it make you a bad person or, you know, like, is that just like, how do you not get rattled by stuff? But how do you sort of stay on whatever the path that you're supposed to be on is? Right. Like, how do you, because obviously there's, there's the little things, like how do you respond to a heckler or whatever? And then there's also, how do you respond to some kind of personal disaster or betrayal or like a financial totally uh change yeah or just the shitty events of they're happening in the world how do you not let it change you or make you despair or make you bitter or make you not radicalize you know like how do you how do you sort of stay on the path that's what it's kind of all about okay all right i believe that's it i believe you well it's it's Funny, though, because I was watching your special and you have the whole thing about is it possible to be a good slave owner?

8:19Ryan Holiday: And there's this opening. So Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is like the famous text in Soap. Say it again. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, the primary text in Soap philosophy. OK. At the beginning of it, this is the emperor of Rome. And he's sort of like reflecting on his life, you know, what he learned, what went well, what he's what he's proud of. and one of the things he congratulates himself on is that he never laid a hand on any of his slaves like so he's actually doing exactly what you're talking about in the bit and because you know all these things are relative right like he's he's looking around not going uh it's like like the chris rock bit about um you know i i hang out with my kids yes like yeah that's what you're supposed to do yes congratulate yourself for but you do you look around and you go well uh everyone owns slaves.

9:08Ryan Holiday: So the idea of conceiving of a world where that doesn't happen is a huge leap for most people. So he's just saying, well, I'm not as bad as these people that are beating them or raping them or murdering them. And it just, it struck me as a very, that even like the wisest people are falling prey to exactly what your bit was about. Yeah. And there is, there is a certain logic to it yes and i know i i'm also kind of uh having fun with the idea that i know that people are going to it's going to take a second for the logic to work its way through it sounds what you're hearing is slave owner yes and the idea that well i would have been a good slave owner you know The fact that you own slaves is a bad thing.

9:59Yes. But if you own slaves, there's a way to be a good slave owner. Yeah. And just messing with that illogic logic.

10:10Ryan Holiday: But I do imagine most people, when they think about the past, their first assumption is, well, I just wouldn't have participated. I wouldn't be. I would have been with the good guys. Of course. And the majority of the people were not with the good guys or it wouldn't have been a majority issue. You know, like like we first we just conceive ourselves as being exempt as opposed to just participating and behaving more or less like everyone else. Right. And, you know, it also depends on what era you're going back to, you know, and and for a long time, I mean, until in historic terms, extremely recently there.

10:50It was just a given. I mean, there's a caste system in India, you know, and it's not out and out slavery, but it is understood. This is cultural, you know, this is you have this skin and you're from that family, so you do this. And, you know, that's that's the idea of people, you know, collectively saying this is wrong is relatively recent, you know, and it you know, we were the last kind of industrialized nation

11:23Ryan Holiday: to stop slavery. Yeah, we had to fight a huge war about it. Yeah. Like a lot of people are like, I would literally rather die than live in a world where I don't get to own other people. Yeah. It's nuts. But I think the funny part of the bit is like on the one level, you're like, yeah, what kind of slave owner would I be? What would I have been? But obviously. I have to say for anybody listening, taken out of context, there's a contextual thing. It's like we keep talking about, oh, this bit that I do about being a good slave owner. And yeah, it's kind of a thing in the bit, but it really is just less than a minute long.

12:01And it's contextually a part of a bigger thing.

12:04Ryan Holiday: no no i wanted to get to the bigger thing because i thought it was a fascinating bit because to me the subtext is like that's that's obviously the extreme example you're you're like i'm a good person in a bad system but like aren't we all uh good people in bad systems or so we think we are like you could you could apply that to any issue at basically any time where you're like i'm not as bad as the rest of those people i i mean sure in in theory i just think uh with um the luxury and ability to to uh look back at things in our in our current situation and people who say i never would have been a nazi soldier yeah like well that's not true i mean right maybe you personally but you can't just say there are people that i mean you know uh that book hitler's willing executioners you know so it's about your neighbors yeah and we we see what's happening with ice i don't i don't think we're you could draw a you know direct line i don't we're not there yet and we're not hopefully we never will be but you can certainly see it happening here with the same people who would say oh i i mean that's where i would draw the line what are you willing to subject another person to if someone's telling you it's okay to do it we think we wouldn't do horrible things right but but everyone is capable of doing those were what 70s the 1970s so not far removed historically and yeah the people yeah i mean i'm i'm basically you know uh supporting that idea like those experiments told us that the same people would be like i would never do that yeah willingly did it yeah or you're like look i know you everyone vaguely knows what happens in factory farms and wouldn't be okay with it.

13:50Ryan Holiday: Like you wouldn't run if you were a farmer, that's not how you would do business or so you tell yourself. And then you're like, but I am hungry and there's a McDonald's right there. Right. And so, so we, we, um, we have the idea and then historically it's very clean. And then the, just the sort of realities of day-to-day life, we make a lot of excuses and rationalizations. That's to me, that's what I took from the thing is that like, you like to think that you're different, but you're not that different. Yeah, I don't think that was like a conscious thought that I had. And that actually, that bit, for a while I was trying it because it just occurred to me.

14:28I don't know why or how it did, but it did. And I didn't have a context for it until I attached it to the Machu Picchu Inca Trail thing. Yes. And I had done it like three or four times when I was, you know, working out new material. and it did not land the way I wanted it to land. And people weren't comfortable with it and I couldn't really defend it because it wasn't that funny. It was an interesting idea. And then I later found the, and I probably dropped it for a while, and then I found the context to put it in there to make it kind of a flow as one linear idea. And then it worked great.

15:09Ryan Holiday: Well, and the reason I was relating it to sort of the current day and how we sort of are able to rationalize things differently is you're talking about the sort of Inca Trail and then you make a reference to like World Cup stadiums. Like we know at some level this is how these things occur in other countries and then people are like, but I do want to go see, like before I die, I want to go see a World Cup match. Right. Or they're walking around the stadium and they're like, this is nice. And it's right beneath the surface. I feel like it's not exactly the same thing, but comparable to recycling.

15:45So I recycle pretty much everything. I don't think it has any real effect at all. I mean, when you look at what the Defense Department does, I mean, what is my washing my tuna can out and then putting in—

16:06Ryan Holiday: It's like one airline flight is like 500 ,000 cans or something. It's like it's and and and what am I doing? What the what the and I tell myself because it's true. Well, at least I'm not contributing to but even just consuming something that comes in that packaging. I mean, it's a thing that sort of makes you feel better, even though it actually makes me feel worse because it just points up the absurdity of the situation we're in. And, you know, but look, if everybody had that philosophy, then we'd be OK if everybody recycled, but everybody doesn't. Driving from the airport in Lima, Peru, to kind of the city center, and Lima's huge.

16:56I mean, you have seven miles of just garbage. I mean, just before it gets nicer. Yeah. And I'm like, what am I doing? Rinsing out my tuna fish can. It doesn't matter. But it does. But it doesn't. You're sucking on a paper straw.

17:11Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And you're like - Oh, that's it. Yes, exactly. Paper straw. Okay. Sure, I'll do it. There's a similarity there, I guess. Although, like, being the kind of person that's like, fuck this, I'm not doing any of it, I don't think that's good for you as a person either. No, like, absolutely. The people who find joy and gleefulness in that, I'm sure he had it in Texas, Roland Cole. Roland Cole. Yes, where you put the exhaust thing on your car. Yeah, it's a southern, it's like they did it in the south a bunch where they, and they're, that makes them happy. And they're all, you know, and they're like, fuck you, you know, hippies or whatever.

17:54I'm going to pollute even more. So and that was like a reaction to what they perceived as, you know, don't tell me I can't have a plastic straw. Yeah.

18:04Ryan Holiday: Like the political correctness thing is kind of that, too, where it's like, OK, look, it can be obnoxious to like police people and have to be overly sensitive and whatever. Right. There's there's obviously some some level which that's onerous and obnoxious. The same time, being a dick on purpose is not good for the world. It's also not good for you to be the kind of person that's like, fuck your feelings. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a bad contribution to humanity. Yes. But I also don't think it's good to be that like it makes the world worse. But it's it's good to have like boundaries and rules where you're like, hey, I don't do that because I like I care about other people.

18:41Yeah, I would imagine mental health wise, but who knows? I mean, I would imagine those or a bunch of those people get a sense of well-being and a satisfaction from sticking it to the end, you know, just an umbrella group, an archetype. like I'm nobody's going to tell me what to do. And then you feel good about it, maybe. So maybe it is good for them because they're they sleep better and they're healthier and they don't you know, they don't have as many stomach issues, gastro, you know, IBS, whatever that, you know, they're like, yeah, I fucking rolled some coal. I showed them and that I did my part.

19:20Ryan Holiday: Yeah, there's something weird about this. Like, I'm going to stick it to the man. But it's like, in this case, the man is people who are mentally handicapped. You know, like, who are you sticking it to by using the R word or whatever? Like, the weirdness of, like, pushing back. But, like, you're pushing back against a person who has nothing. They're not the man. Well, what about rich, retarded people? What do you do in that situation? Sure. A conundrum. Yeah. The idea of punching down is sad and gross to me. You know, the idea of finding joy and making fun of and making other people laugh with you at this, you know, marginalized group is just sad.

20:03Ryan Holiday: Yes. But again, to be empathetic to those people is they they don't always see they're not like waking up and they're like, hey, how can I pick on these other people? No, I think it's a, as you were saying, it's like a reaction to don't tell me what I can and can't say and freedom of speech. And even if that freedom of speech is an offensive derogatory word or phrase or something. Yeah. Yeah. And usually it comes from some kind of insecurity, literally or figuratively, where you're just uncomfortable. So you're like, how can I lash out? Like my kids. You know what? I want to stop and interrupt.

20:42And I don't know. That, to me, sounds it sounds kind of smug and condescending in a way that would make that person go. see see see what they think and i think it's helpful to be careful about not kind of doing what they're doing sometimes which is just a broad brush of oh some you know liberal progressive know-it-all you know because i get that a lot i get that accusation and i think sometimes it's warranted i hear myself and i'm serious i sometimes i hear myself and i'm like

21:24Ryan Holiday: Like, oh, shut the fuck up. Yes. You just sound like a dick. You sound like everyone. You're making it worse. I'm talking to myself now. And I think that is a if we want to truly affect which and I agree with all of your positions and philosophy on this. We have to be careful about not engaging in the same kind of thing. Yeah. Mark Maron's thing about annoying people into fascism is very real. But what I mean is that most people do not think most people when they're punching down probably aren't saying to themselves, I am punching down in their in their mind. They are thinking, yes, this person is a worthy target or I'm actually attacking this bigger interest that's behind that.

22:16Ryan Holiday: Like, I don't think people think I think it's the latter. I think it's the the idea that I've experienced. And I'm in stand-up comedy, so I experience it a lot where there's, and I've been on both sides where it's like, you know, don't tell me what word I can and can't use. But I think they, most of these folks, it's about, oh, this makes you uncomfortable? Then I'm going to say it. Yeah. And there's not a whole lot past that. Right. It's a lot of like, don't tell me what I can and can't say and freedom of speech. And and I agree. I don't think they see it as punching down and I don't think they care on a surface level of if it's hurting an individual person.

23:02It's more important to them to. Oh, it bothers you. You're going to tell me what I can and can't say. No, you're not. Yeah. And, you know, I agree.

23:12Ryan Holiday: I could it could come off as condescending. I'm just saying, I feel like as you get older and you experience more, you become less, you're able to question that impulse a little bit more and go, hey, like, I get why I'm having this reaction to it, but I'm going to decide whether it's worth the cost over here. Yeah. And again, the context is everything, like the slavery thing. Like, here's the logic. That's why I'm saying this, and it's in the context. I can defend that. But there's sometimes you can't. And if I found that I couldn't and I knew it was upsetting more than a couple people, like it's not worth it.

23:47I'll drop it.

23:48Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And it'd probably be different if someone was saying, like, hey, if you say this, you'll go to jail or, you know, like where there would be actually some principle at stake, even if you didn't care that much about it. You're able to just go, hey, as a human being interacting in society, here's how I'm going to decide to be considered or not. Like one of the things the Stoics talk about is like how like, look, if you're if you take offense to something like you're at fault, like somebody said something and then you're choosing to be hurt by it. That is like one of the Stoic views, which I think at some level is true.

24:21Ryan Holiday: Right now, like no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Like you decided to give weight and meaning to those words. I agree with that on some level. I also, though, in my life, don't go around trying to hurt people's feelings because I don't give a shit. So like there's a tension there. Yeah. I think there are groups of people who it's easier for one group of people to make another group of people feel bad. I think it's in a sense easier for like a wealthy white guy to say, hey, man, don't let him get you down. than a poor black lesbian, you know, whatever, because they're fighting multiple fronts.

25:07And if that rich white guy is saying something, it's easy for somebody to go, hey, man, don't let him get you down.

25:16Ryan Holiday: Or as you say in the thing, it takes more muscles to frown. That might be literally true from whoever did that study. But that's not that's not much solace to someone who just got diagnosed with terminal cancer. And and like someone else with terminal cancer might be able to say that to the fellow diagnosie. But like you as just a regular you just understand, like, it's not your place to say that. You haven't earned being able to say this to the other person. You're going to sound like a douche. Yeah, of course. Hey, man, I know cancer's bad. We all we all got the memo. But listen, cheer, cheer up.

25:58Turn that frown upside down. Yeah.

26:01Ryan Holiday: Right. Well, like the thing about like dudes walking around telling women to smile. It's like, you don't know what this person just went through. Like, right. Just like stay in your lane is also what we're saying. Although I still have this kind of it doesn't come up that much anymore. But my wife, who's a pretty active feminist, I think our daughter was, I'm going to say, like two and a half, maybe, maybe two, maybe three, maybe. And we were in the TSA line at the airport and she's she's in a stroller. And and my daughter wasn't crying or anything. So this guy who worked, you know, at the airport is like, hey, and whatever he said, it was very cordial.

26:47And, you know, what's your name? And hey, how about how about a smile? And my wife took that as like, oh, yeah, guy, a man telling a woman or a girl to smile. I'm like, honey, he was just being nice to a kid. Right. And she, yeah, she was, she was, that was like a source of contention. And I still, to this day, I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you? It's not, it's not a sexist thing. Right. Oh, but it is. Oh, it's, you know, the patriarch. She didn't say that, but. It's more like an adult baby thing. Yes.

27:22Ryan Holiday: Not a, not a, not a gender thing. No, yes. It was, it was, so there's, you know, there's a point. to do all of this, I guess. My kids do that. Like, they just don't participate in any, like, you know, adults are like, hey, like, they'll try to shake their hands. You know, like just - How old are your kids? A nine and a six-year-old. But they're just like not interested in making adults feel good about like engaging with them. They just won't, they just like, I don't know you. And it's like this sort of polite version of you is you're like, hey, don't do that. And then the like, oh yeah, don't humor and engage with complete strange adults who are telling you to do stuff.

28:07Ryan Holiday: It's like this mix of like horror and pride at the same time. Yeah, my daughter's nine does the same thing where, you know, actually when the examples I'm thinking of are like people that I know, you know, or at least have, she's seen that I think this person is safe, you know, get enough information. But that's also shyness and you should be. And I know exactly what you're saying. I know that thing. I'm like all about it. I'm like, you do not. I don't want to shake that guy's hand. I don't know who he is. I would like there to be less touching, period, like among strangers. You don't need to do this.

28:46Ryan Holiday: Also, like, I just saw you touch everything in the bathroom. You're actually doing this guy a favor by not shaking his hand. over 70 percent of americans are chronically dehydrated and 90 percent don't get enough potassium a key electrolyte responsible for energy muscle function and clear thinking that's why so many people are tired foggy crampy or even off even though they're drinking tons of water i'm uh down at the beach with my family in florida i've been running in the morning walking the dog going to the beach i like just can't get hydrated i just can't it's just so hot i'm doing so much i can't get hydrated on water alone.

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30:02Ryan Holiday: It's Instant Hydration's best offer available. That's instanthydration.com slash stoic, promo code stoic. We just got back from this trip to Europe and it was so ungodly hot there. Like it was the hottest it's ever been, which exacerbated another experience if you've ever been to Europe, just how bad the mattresses are there. So I was excited to be home because we've been gone for a while, but I was really excited to be home and sleep on my eight sleep pod. I missed it every night I was gone. It cools the mattress, cools my wife's side differently than my side. It doesn't matter how hot the room is.

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31:19Ryan Holiday: You can use my code dailystoic at 8sleep.com slash stoic for up to$350 off, and you get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't love it. You had a funny, another one that I watched you talking about the other day where you were talking about this with your kids where you're like you have a rich kid and how do you how do you both take care of your kids and then also not uh spoil them rotten i mean i don't think i'm i suppose it's relative uh what spoiled is my daughter would certainly have a different idea than what i do but she is spoiled and and the whole bit is about the resentment i have for how easy she's got it and i'm and i do that annoying thing uh i try not to but like i can bring it up organically and it kind of works because she she knows and she'll ask me questions but um yeah i never had that and i had to go do this and this well you know i didn't have a parent at home we were latchkey kids and blah blah and um just because she doesn't truly appreciate yet but she's also nine yeah but she also has and we have a nice house we have a brownstone in brooklyn and uh it's huge you know it's the biggest place i've ever lived in yeah and it's not huge compared to like texas huge but you know it's i also live in brooklyn so it's never going to be that big but i mean most people live in apartments and all of her friends you know are like live in these like apartment buildings or units in a brownstone.

32:59And so she's aware of that. And what I'm trying to do is ride the fine line of, I don't want to say guilt, because that's not the right emotion I want her to have, but just the understanding of what she has, what other people don't have. This is not normal. Yeah, but we also have a fair number of friends who are astoundingly wealthy. Yeah. And they have multiple homes and they're friends going back to before they were crazy wealthy. And, you know, we're a drop in the bucket to what they have, like a country estate and they have a, you know, a triplex in the city and they have all these, you know.

33:44Yeah. And it's crazy. They have a stable, you know. I mean, so it's all relative and I try to keep that in mind.

33:51Ryan Holiday: Yeah, it's like I'm stressing about, okay, do I have to sit in like a shitty seat on this airplane because we're flying together because I want to build character? And then I'm picking you up from school and the guy behind me is in a Lamborghini. Like I could probably, you know, like there is a relative nature to it. She travels a lot, you know, because we do and my family's - Yeah, you want to take them with you. And what was it? Fairly recently, like a year and a half ago, I want to say, maybe two years ago, uh we were flying it was a longer flight maybe it was going to la from new york and somehow we got bumped up and it wasn't like anything i didn't use points or anything like that and was also one of those newer planes i think it's an american american airlines where they don't have they don't have business class it's a newer plane and it's called premium economy And so it's kind of in between business and Comfort Plus kind of thing.

34:54It's nicer than what we usually get the Comfort Plus extra six inches. And that's it. That's all you're getting. That's all I need. We're fine. It's okay. And it was just her and I. And we got bumped up somehow. And we were in this premium economy thing, which is nice. It's like business, basically. And from that point on. Yeah, that's the new normal. that's like and she gets it but i she and i told her it was a very special thing i don't know why but you know and uh but from that point on like um can we get the can we no we can't why why because it's expensive and i'm not gonna pay for that and this is this seat is fine we're fine honey but the other one they gave us free whatever and it's big and no honey it's and And so maybe it's a good thing because after that, we still were back in comfort plus.

35:48And it's like, look, see, this is fine. This is fine.

35:52Ryan Holiday: And probably as a parent, it's like, you're like, I got to build character, not make them entitled. I don't want them to think life is easy. And it's like, life's hard for everyone. Her life is fucking easy. I mean, it is. I know it's tough being a kid regardless of your station in life and where you live. It's, you know, even wealthy kids have difficulty navigating social norms and, you know, kids in their school and there's a mean teacher and all that stuff. But, you know, she's she's she's doing all right. And what I mean is what ultimately shapes you more as a person, the handful of perks you get or just the fact that shit is always happening and it's never the way that you like.

36:35Ryan Holiday: There's this idea, at least that's what I got from my parents. It's like, oh, it builds character. And it's like, is that what builds the character? Is where you're sitting on an airplane or what kind of car you're driving? That sounds like an excuse, Ryan. That sounds like an excuse to bump yourself up. No, but I'm just what builds character? Is it that? Is it like your access or lack of access to material things? Or is it actually like how they see you going through the world? What kind of person you are? It's both of them. And it's also it's a lot of stuff. And it's also how you appreciate the things.

37:10If you think it's normal, if you think you're entitled, if you think. And we've seen plenty of examples, certainly in celebrity and whether that's athletics or actors or singers or whoever. People who come from limited means and then they just feel entitled. They haven't had good guidance and they treat people, you know, shitty and they feel entitled and they don't say please and thank you. And they don't stop to reflect on exactly how this all happened. Why? They just think, well, of course, I'm I'm talented. Yes. You know, I'm a really good, you know, at this thing and people love me. And so, of course, I should bathe in Evian water or whatever.

37:59And, you know, what I'm trying to do is keep her grounded as much as possible. But to answer your question, I think it's all of those things. And it really is about understanding and appreciating that stuff for what it is.

38:17Ryan Holiday: I think that the thing that people struggle with is understanding that having money or luxury things or attention or that, like, it can be nice, but it doesn't say anything about you as a person. Right. Like like to have it, but not one become like the normal, like the baseline, like, hey, this is this is my this is what I expect when I arrive. These are the basic levels of accommodations or whatever that I feel entitled to. But also that like, I'm sure it's like this with fame or with power, it kind of intermingles with your soul and you go, I am this kind of person who, you know, should be treated this way.

38:59Ryan Holiday: I get this because I'm special. And if I don't get it, you're depriving me of my specialness. Right. And then so that it's where it sort of merges with you on like a cellular, a soul level, as opposed to, hey, I would rather sit on a comfortable seat on an airplane than an uncomfortable one. I'd rather, you know, live in a nice house than a not nice house. But the problem is when you think like what kind of car you drive or how many followers you have or attention you get as any kind of bearing on your worth as a person that makes you better than others. Yeah, I get that. Sure. I think the best thing, I'm saying this now, I haven't sat down with a pad of paper and really thought it out, but I think one of the best things about growing up poor, not having those luxury things, is that when you, and then you do attain them, but when you are in a position where you have to, I mean, this is just the way things are, you have to sleep on this bench.

40:01Yeah. You know, it's it's you're tired and there isn't a comfortable bed and we're in the middle of nowhere. Whatever the thing is, you just do it without you may go. That sucks. But that's it. And then you go to sleep. You can handle not having you can handle. I think when people say I think when people say like, oh, they've got a lot of character or this this builds character. All it means literally all it means is you don't whine a bitch about certain things. You don't whine and bitch because it's cold or it's hot or this pillow isn't, you know, the thread count. You just don't bitch. You don't cry about it.

40:40That's what I think what people mean when they say it builds character. You know, she's got a lot of character. That old lady, she's a, you know, that's what it means. They don't whine when it's 90 degrees. You just get on with it.

40:54Ryan Holiday: Yeah, it's funny that we use the word character there because what we actually kind of mean is like resilience or adaptability. Character is like to me has like a moral component, like your ability to sleep on a bench is not like a statement of character, because I mean, there's lots of people who have to sleep on benches for no fault. I wouldn't say that's as has anything to do with their character. That that's a social injustice that we should we should rectify. Meaning going back to your thing about on the plane, like, oh, it builds character to sit. That's what people mean. It means you don't whine about having to sit there later on when you've.

41:29Ryan Holiday: Yeah. You've been at the airport when you see people fucking flipping out. Yeah. And they're yelling at somebody that had nothing to do with it and cannot control the situation and make it better for you. Because this, you know, this dude is going with this fucking cell phone out and waving it going. And I, you know, I my seat was business and now I'm in the back and it happens and it sucks. But don't be that person. You're yelling at somebody who has can't not do a thing about it. Yeah. And sometimes you can even just you're like, it feels like splitting hairs. But it's like, OK, if the airline fucked up, I get why you're a little upset.

42:11Ryan Holiday: But this is a storm. Like this is like every plane in the entire airport is on the ground because there's a lightning storm. Right. And you're you're thinking that if you're just super rude to this person at the computer, they can fix that. Yeah, exactly. Yes. That's a better way to put it. Just like, well, sir, it's hailing. Yeah. And we cannot fly. Oh, did you say you really have to get where you're going? I said no. Yeah. OK, well, we do have a plane for people like you. Yes. Right. But going back even to the punching down to, I do try to remind myself that these as as abhorrent as this behavior is, I try to go.

42:51Ryan Holiday: I have no idea where this like how many hours this person traveled to get here. How many horrible things have happened to them along the way? What kind of anxiety they're bringing to having had my own share of like, wow, I really wish I'd handled that better. I do try to go this person as horrible as they're behaving is not having a good time like something is is wrong inside. I mean, that's that's noble that you try to remember that. And that's a good thing. I don't know if I'm I have done that as much as I should have or could have. But yeah, it's a it's a good. But there also is a line. Of course, I'm not saying it's it's funny, like with Daily Stoic, like we have a customer service person.

43:33Ryan Holiday: and when they like show me some of the customer service. What is the Daily Stoic? Daily Stoic is, so it's all about Stoic philosophy that we're talking about. And it's like a daily email, it's social media, it's this podcast. But like, you know, we sell stuff and it's funny to see the people who write in to customer service and how fundamentally un-Stoic they are. Right. As if, again, like, it's like, hey, you're not yelling at a computer. Like, this is a person. She sits right over there. And like, I wonder if people have kind of started to assume that just everyone and everything they're dealing with is like a computer bot so it's okay to yell at them but it's like that's a human that you're talking to yeah i i'm not sure about that i think they just it's about venting and it's about you know the classic karen uh thing yeah i mean because i you see enough of it i mean these these fucking viral videos of somebody at a mcdonald's you know like you didn't you put the wrong sauce and then they're throwing milkshakes at people it's just awful yeah you know road rage road that wasn't a thing until it was and then it was like everywhere you know yeah but like when i watch some of those videos not to excuse them i'm like this person is having some kind of psychotic break you know like this person is not well like obviously what they're doing is not okay and then this is obviously gets into things like, hey, maybe it's not a good idea, given a certain percentage of the population is not mentally well, that we should just flood the country with millions of guns.

45:04Ryan Holiday: That seems like, you know, an explosive combination. But sometimes when I'm watching those videos, I'm like, okay, this person who's screaming at someone at Costco, and they're in slippers and a robe, and they're yelling. And it's like, obviously, what they're saying is inexcusable. But like, this person needs to be like, medicated. Like this is this person is not well. Well, I mean, sometimes, sure, but sometimes I think people are, it's that sense of entitlement and it's kind of the similar logic of when there's a really long line for something and you're in that line and the thing that you're in line for is, let's say, to look at a painting.

45:50Yeah, this isn't the best example, but and you're in that line the entire time going, come on, just move. All right. You've been looking at it for a minute now. Enough. Move on. There's other stuff. That's your process. That's what's going through all the way until you get to like. Three back and then you're like, well, I've waited in this line. I'm going to take my time. you know what i mean it's that kind of um again not the best example but that that idea of you know i am at your store and you're supposed the customer is always right and the and these this just the sense of entitlement that everybody has in any situation you know yeah yes the uh the it's

46:38Ryan Holiday: my turn to get what's mine uh or i mean we see this with all these like nobody paid off my student loan debt or whatever. It's like, okay, but it was a fraction of the amount. Whole groups were excluded from attending the college when you went. But also, also, also, this will benefit you. This is a thing. I know in your brain, you're like, that's not fair, but this will directly benefit you. If this person has less debt and they, I mean, this is Keynesian economics 101. on. And then they have now all of a sudden they have money so that they don't have to work three jobs. They're not tired behind the wheel.

47:20Their kids are better adjusted.

47:22Ryan Holiday: I mean, it just goes. Yeah. That one is so weird, too, because it's like it's the people who are mad about how unfair it is are the people who like to say life's not fair. You know, like like, yeah, it's kind of not fair. You had to do it. And now they're not. But it it's not taking anything from you. Like it's It's not it's not it's actually giving it will benefit that person. Be that as it may. It's them them getting something that you didn't get is not taking anything from you. Right. I understand. Yeah. There is that sort of immediate childlike part of us that's like, well, everyone should get the same.

47:57Ryan Holiday: It should be fair. And it's like, that's not how it works. Isn't the whole point that the world is supposed to be better for the people that come after us? Like, isn't that what our one of our main jobs as a human being is, is to, like, make things less hard for the people coming after us? Like, that's I feel like that's kind of the point of a civilized society. Right. It's certainly a worthy goal. Yeah. But I don't know that that that getting angry about other people getting stuff is a very animating force and sort of always has been. Yeah. I mean, especially when it's the government, you know.

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51:33Ryan Holiday: Tell them the Daily Stoic sent you to support the show. The special is very, very political. I mean, you open with the Trump thing and you have some other stuff. It's not really. I guess you're going to consider the abortion stuff political. I guess it is. I think I would. Yeah, all right. I'm not saying it in a bad way. I admire that. No, no, I know. I just— I'm trying to turn people off. I didn't take it that way. I just—and I suppose I'm being a little defensive here because I have been really careful and worked hard at all, like, the last five, six specials, whatever, of delineating, like, so a third.

52:14and no more than a third of the hour and 15 minutes is a quote political unquote or uh you know talks about religious stuff and then a third i try to make just really silly dumb jokes which i have plenty of they're had nothing to do with anything they're just dumb jokes and then a third are anecdotal things this thing happened and i observed this and this is what i think of that And I often I think because the political content is can be kind of sharp. Yeah, I think I and I'm just this is a defensive posture. And I so I apologize for that. But it's just like people will kind of pigeonhole me as a political comic.

52:52And I'm like, I'm not I'm a comic who does stuff about politics. So that's where that came from. And I apologize for.

52:58Ryan Holiday: No, it's actually what I was going to bring up, because like it feels like that word doesn't capture what it's like. you're not like talking about like the marginal tax rate or something. Do you know what? Like it feels weird that we have to say like politics about, you know, what feel to me like basic issues of the social contract and like how, like what's happening in the world. And then people are like, well, why are you being so political? And it's like, well, because I'm alive and I have eyes and I haven't turned my heart off to other human beings and what they're going through. So I feel like I have to say something.

53:35Ryan Holiday: but I would like not to have to say something because I would like this not to be happening. Right. But what I was going to ask is it feels like you make a choice to talk about it, even though you understand at some level it's going to upset some people. Oh, yeah. I've never cared about that. And I'm very, you know, I'm a polarizing figure and I know that. And I'm not going to do anything to, you know, I mean, at this point, The ship has sailed about trying to please everybody and be like a clean comic who doesn't take sides. But I have no interest in that. And I never, ever, not once have I ever thought, hmm, I need to figure out a bit about women's rights in this country.

54:20It just occurs to me when I'm reading, thinking, walking down the street, whatever. And then you work on stuff on stage. And but I do consciously, I will go, this feels this hour and 10 minutes, 15 minutes feels too, too political. Yeah. And I need to take some of this stuff and maybe I'll do it in the next special. But, you know, so I do kind of, I guess, the reverse where I think, OK, this is too much about this. Let's get let's have some fun.

54:54Ryan Holiday: But you also go, hey, you can't just be talking about silly, ridiculous stuff when the world is on fire. It just has never worked out that way. Interesting. There's always... There's always too much. There's always something to... Yeah, it really is about pulling that stuff back going, this is too much. I don't want to do... And I've always... I prided myself on... And this special doesn't do it so much. But the last, you know, several tours where it's like, I'm I'm not going to even get to this stuff until we're 30 minutes in. So if you get upset and you walk out, you know, and that happens, you know, I know that the first 30 minutes were inoffensive, had nothing to do with religion or politics or it's a story about whatever.

55:47You know, there might be a line here and there, but like I know you got at least 30 minutes of entertainment before you went, fuck you, you know.

55:58Ryan Holiday: And you chose to do this one not in a sort of theater, the kind of glamorous, maybe like special that people see a lot. Can we turn the AC down? Warmer or colder? No, sorry, off. Oh, it's going to heat up real quick. No, no, no. Out there, the ceilings are like 20 feet tall. Right. But in here, it's small. So like the AC is very concentrated in this tiny windowless room. So it either gets very cold or very hot in here. But when it gets hot, I'll ask to... No. I have no character. Yeah. Growing up in the South, you do get used to just being way too hot or way too cold. It's like it's never the right one.

56:43I grew up in Georgia. Yeah. So I know that thing, but the inverse is true when you go like in New York and you have a particularly hard winter and you are bundled up in four layers and then you go into a bar or you go to a restaurant or you go to a movie theater and it's fucking broiling. Yeah. And now you've got to take everything off and basically strip down your shirt. And then you, yeah, you have the kind of similar thing. And then also in the summer if it's hot, you know, and then you go see a movie and you're freezing.

57:20Ryan Holiday: Like, Jesus, guys. I don't know how people lived here before. Like, the idea that air conditioning is not that new of an, or not that old of an invention is kind of crazy. Yeah. Like, it's. Oh, and they used to wear wool suits. I know. It's like a Hasidim. Yeah. You know, like you look at those old pictures, you know, New York, Lower East Side. Yeah. And these guys, you know, it's like 92 degrees. Yes. And there's people in these three piece suits and hats and like, oh, God, that's and it must have stunk. Right. Oh, I feel like they don't talk about that. Like, and what was the laundry situation?

57:58Ryan Holiday: Like, these are in many cases like poor people. So it's not like they have a closet full of 50 suits and they're rotating them. They would wear the same shirt and just change the collar. So how disgusting must have everything been? And then they're riding horses. It's just disgusting. I don't have any idea how it worked. Well, I mean, that's what they knew. Yeah. And so... It seems normal. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. I wonder, too, if some of the brutality of the world back then was just like everyone was so uncomfortable and miserable all the time. It was hard to have like a scale of like what was good.

58:34Well, there I lived in London for a couple of years and, you know, AC at newer, newer places have them. But like if you went through any kind of heat wave like we get here, I mean, there's most places don't have AC, you know, where people live. Yeah. And they've got, you know, the fans that the plug in. But that only does so much. I mean, it's it's it's tough, you know.

58:59Ryan Holiday: Thousands of people die every year in Europe from just the heat. And that's obviously going to be one of the consequences of climate change. More Europeans dying? Well, it's not an American news story. It's actually similar. I could be making this up, but I remember reading an article that was like, gun violence versus heat deaths across Europe are fairly similar. So we murder a lot of people every year. But like in other countries, they just keel over from from from the heat. And like that would have been just background noise in the world for hundreds of years that just like in the summer, sometimes you die from from from sweltering in your in your tenement apartment.

59:45You've been to Phoenix.

59:46Ryan Holiday: Yeah. So there's a handful of places in the United States where I'm like, why? This should not exist. What the fuck? And if you go downtown where they have like, you know, kind of concentrated corporate, you know, fun town things. Yeah. And all the like outdoor bars and the sports bars and entertainment centers or whatever. When you're downtown in Phoenix, all of them have these things on the outside on the street that missed you. Yeah. And that's so you don't die. Yeah. Like the city, in order to live there and work there and congregate and go out to dinner, you have to be wet by the city. Watered down.

1:00:35The city has to wet you down because you might die. Yeah. Why the fuck would you move to that place?

1:00:45Ryan Holiday: Right. And the irony, too, of like it's hot also because everything is concrete and cement. so it just like it sucks in the heat and then and then it like phoenix if no one lives there obviously it's still a desert but like nature does a decent job of making that somewhat hospitable because it's like it's hot during the day but it's cool in the shade and it's cool night but then modern man comes in and actually makes it this like concrete oven that's like slowly releasing the heat throughout the day so it actually is hotter longer it's it's madness Yeah, especially when we know there are measures you can take to rectify that situation, to reverse it.

1:01:29Ryan Holiday: But people really like golfing. They love golfing. And that's where they do the golf. They're like, what is the most water-intensive, green thing we could have? I guess we could put that anywhere in the United States where the climate makes sense. But what if we actually put them in Palm Desert and Arizona? That seems like the best place. Yeah, just that's what we're going to spend our water on. Yeah. Well, it's like, they're like, there's nothing here. Let's build. And it's like, there's nothing here because it's inhospitable and horrible. Yeah. That's why. It's madness. Hopefully, we'll go to the moon and build some golf courses up there.

1:02:08That'll be way spread out. Won't need this much water. I don't know how we get the water. We'll figure it out. Yeah.

1:02:15Ryan Holiday: Doesn't George Carlin have a thing where he's a golf? Arrogant game. What? An arrogant game. Like, we need all this space for one person to hit this tiny ball. It is madness. Yep. You want to see the bookstore? Yeah.