The Low Road Will Always Dog You | Why Marcus Aurelius Didn’t Become Nero

0:00Maria Semple: Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

0:14The low road will always dog you.

0:18Maria Semple: That passage from Marcus Aurelius about how the impediment to action advances action, that what stands in the way becomes the way. Do you know what he was actually talking about specifically? It wasn't overcoming an injury or a layoff or financial collapse. It wasn't about a reversal on the battlefield. It was talking about difficult people. It was saying that frustrating, infuriating, thoughtless people, they are opportunities. When someone is a jerk to you, it's an opportunity to practice virtue in how you respond. By not being a jerk back, by forgiving them, by standing up for yourself, by empathizing with what they're going through.

0:56Maria Semple: Of course, when someone is being difficult, you're tempted to give it right back. You're tempted to go, oh, this is how we're behaving these days. This is what passes for acceptable behavior. But you shouldn't. On a recent episode of the podcast, we were talking with the novelist Maria Semple, who has this amazing book called Go Gentle, which is about a Stoic philosopher. She signed a bunch of copies. We have them in the painted porch. It was an Oprah book club pick. Like one of the things she shared was a reminder that she relies on when she's dealing with difficult people. Let me play it for you real fast.

1:32Maria Semple: A quote that I think I made up that's one of my favorite quotes is the low road will always dog you. Like that basically the high road you can go to sleep feeling good about yourself. The low road you might 10 years from now being like walking down the street and going, why did I have to be like cutting to that person in that situation for no reason? And so I think just on a practical level, it makes sense to just be virtuous and be the person you want to be, because then it's like not clogging up your brain with like regret. And, OK, who's the person I want to be? Mark Stavillis actually reminds himself of this in Meditations, in addition to that famous passage.

2:10Maria Semple: He says the best revenge is to not be like that. He was saying that he had no choice about what was done to him, that somebody else took the low road, but he could choose how he responded. He could choose to take the high road. He could choose not to be consumed by anger or a desire. He could choose not to be implicated in their ugliness, which is how he opens that famous passage in book two. He could choose to be the person that he wanted to be. Whenever someone does something to us, minor or major, we always have this choice. We can decide not to be like the people who did us wrong. We can choose the high road.

2:49Maria Semple: And we should, because the low road always dogs you.

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5:50Maria Semple: And it's true, like, you know, he doesn't have a father, he's this overpowering mother, and he knows that he's sort of exempt from the rules, that he's, you know, different, special, has all these privileges. Like, of course it wasn't going to turn out well. Like, we can say that. We look at Nero's, the facts of Nero's life, even with Seneca's influence, and we're like, yeah, it was always going to go this way. That's what makes Marcus Reelus so remarkable, right? Like, it doesn't go well for Seneca, doesn't go well for Commodus, Mark Surrealis' son, why is it different for Marcus? That, to me, is the ultimate question, right?

6:24Maria Semple: Marcus does not become a Nero despite being born into privilege, being marked for power at a young age, being surrounded by status and ambition and flattery and all the temptations that deform and derange someone, right? That would stain them purple, as Mark says in meditations. Somehow he gets the power and it doesn't break him. weirdly, it makes him better. And I wanted to talk to someone who might be able to help us answer what happened there. William O. Stevens is a philosopher, a professor emeritus of philosophy at Crichton University, and he's one of the leading scholars on Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus and Stoic ethics.

7:00Maria Semple: And he's written this great new biography of Marcus Aurelius. It's called Marcus Aurelius, Philosopher King. And so in today's episode, which is going to be a short one, I asked him about Marx's boyhood, the death of his father, what Hadrian might have seen in him, you know, how dangerous it can be for a young person to tell them or for them to believe they're destined for greatness, how not to be corrupted by those expectations. And, you know, this remarkable life that's shaped by philosophy. You can grab copies of William's latest book, Marcus Rurelius, Philosopher King, anywhere books are sold.

7:34Maria Semple: And you can learn more about his work at williamostephens.com. And if you want to do a deep dive into meditations, we have a great guide on that as well. I'll link to that in the show notes. I thought we could talk about Marcus's boyhood, which I find fascinating, right? Because on paper, and we have so many stories and myths about this. In fact, it's kind of every parent's nightmare. Like when you raise a kid amongst privilege and an expectation of power or success or wealth or access, like more often than not, it goes terribly wrong. Certainly it goes wrong in, say, Nero's case or Prince Andrew's case.

8:20Maria Semple: Nice. How does it go right in Marcus's case?

8:24William Stephens: It's easy to speculate and hard to be confident about how one speculates. So let's contrast Marcus's boyhood with that of, say, Commodus. Yeah. So the thing that jumps out to me about Marcus, of course, is that his biological father died when he was quite young. And that didn't make him an orphan because, you know, he still had his mother. but in Roman society, just as in all of antiquity and down through today, although less so today, you're dealing with patriarchy, right? So the death of a father is going to be a huge blow for any Roman boy and including, and perhaps especially so for a privileged young boy as Marcus was, right?

9:13William Stephens: Because his family is elite and they're optimists, right? They're aristocrats. So it's tempting. I mean, I'm tempted to read back Marcus's, let's just be clear and call it obsession with death, right? I mean, as a Stoic, you know, the memento mori, he lived it.

9:33Maria Semple: Yes.

9:34William Stephens: I mean, he faced so much death in his life and it started with his dad. His father died. And, you know, he might have been six, seven, eight years old. He might have been, you know, 10 or 12 or 14, but he wasn't any older than that, right? So historians aren't exactly sure when. And in the Roman world that he inhabited, you know, death came easy. You know, they did not have medicine. They had plagues. They had plenty of quacks that, you know, practiced anything but what we would call medicine. And sometimes patients would recover despite it. And they did learn things from the Greek physicians, but it was really Galen who made the major strides.

10:18William Stephens: And Marcus was very fortunate to have someone like Galen, who was quite a coward, apparently, when it came to facing the plague, but was a brilliant philosopher and scientist with his anatomical dissections and what he learned about the human body. And so that came later. You know, Galen entered Marcus's life when he was an adult. But I mean, that only takes you so far. I think, you know, a lot of it is just going to be is just going to be luck, you know, or genetics or something. Right. He for whatever reason, he was a very serious young boy and he took philosophy. of he really was drawn to reflection.

11:01William Stephens: He was a meditative sort of guy, right? From an early age. And he was impressed by the austere model of philosophers and Stoics in particular.

11:17Maria Semple: Do you think that's what Hadrian saw in him? It does seem remarkable, though, perhaps in the way that a really good scout can see potential in an extremely young athlete. But to be able to spot, because their relationship begins, you know, right around that time, to be able to spot that effectively 40 years in the future, this guy would be a good emperor is a pretty remarkable bit of talent scouting.

11:47William Stephens: Yeah. So Hadrian was savvy in that regard. And, you know, lining up the succession with Antoninus Pius adopting Marcus and Lucius Ferris. Yeah. And so, I mean, it just seems like it's fairly safe to suppose that Marcus did stand out to Hadrian in that respect. And that other boys Marcus's age just weren't as serious, just weren't quite as studious, weren't really quite as serious about taking their duties, even as children, really very seriously. And Marcus did. He was precocious. He was bookish. And he recognized his responsibilities and took them very seriously from an early age. And Hadrian saw that, and that's what distinguished him.

12:34William Stephens: And fortunately for us, you know, that worked out. And fortunately for the Romans under Marcus, that worked out his subjects, that worked out pretty well.

12:45Maria Semple: It's sort of like the law of thermodynamics or whatever, where it's when you try to measure it, it screws up what you're trying to measure it. I'm probably butchering this analogy here, but it does strike me though that the second you identify the potential in someone like that, and then you anoint them or you begin the process by which you're being groomed for power, it could very well swamp all that potential. Like the second you tell a 15-year-old or a 20-year-old or quite frankly, a 50-year-old who's been preparing for this moment their whole life that they're about to become head of state or that they are a shoo-in to be head of state.

13:26Maria Semple: We know what this does to a person. I think it really does give you a sense of what kind of character that you're dealing with it, that he could have been put on this path so young and it doesn't seem to have corrupted or messed with his compass. If anything, it confirmed it.

13:45William Stephens: Right. And this is the point I made last time when we spoke and the conceit of the book. Marcus was drawn to philosophy. That's what he wanted to do. He wanted to be a philosopher. He was called upon to be an emperor. He did not seek political power. He didn't want it. He understood Plato better than we do in the Republic when Socrates says philosophers don't rule because they want to. They rule because they need to, because you need a wise ruler who's dedicated to justice, not wealth, not power. And Marcus is growing up in a world that's all about power. And yes, there's philosophy, but, you know, that's for the nerds, right?

14:33William Stephens: That's for, you know, the bookish types. That's for the longbeards, right? Roman movers and shakers, you know, with their military training and the cursus honorum, right? Of all the different offices, I mean, they learn how to administrate and they learn how to command men and they learn how to project power and gravitas, right? Right. And for Marcus, you know, he saw through that to the extent that what he was drawn to as a philosopher in a literal sense is wisdom. He was a lover of wisdom, but he recognized his responsibilities. He was tapped. He was called. Right. That was his calling. Yeah.

15:17William Stephens: Or rather, he was called upon rather. Right. He was called upon by Hadrian. But his own, you know, vocation, his own personal spiritual calling was to do philosophy and read literature. And he was an intellectual, but that wasn't in the cards for him. That wasn't what was fated for him. And he recognized that. And so, you know, he didn't celebrate being an emperor. He tried to be the best one that he could. And he recognized, and he knew his history too, his immediate Roman history.

15:48Maria Semple: Yes.

15:49William Stephens: He wanted to be a benevolent despot, not not a maniac. Yeah. Not a megalomaniac, not a bloodthirsty monster. He didn't want to be a Caligula or Nero. Right.

16:00Maria Semple: And we do sort of have to grade him on a curve in that respect. Right. Like you can't you can't judge him against FDR, Abraham Lincoln or Theodore Roosevelt. You have to judge him against Caligula or Nero or or basically anyone that's ever had effectively unlimited power. I mean, there are almost no examples, not just of those people being good people. But I mean, you see this right now in authoritarian countries. It's not just that. Like ours, you mean? Yes, exactly. I mean, it's not just that it can draw the worst out of you. It can make you really bad at the job. Like what's interesting is there's a famous story.

16:43Maria Semple: I mean, Hadrian's a cautionary tale in this regard. he's arguing with with one of his philosophers about some issue and i'm forgetting the philosopher's name but at some point the philosopher concedes the issue and uh the friends go to him and say you know why did you do that you were right hadrian was wrong and he said i think you forget the man who controls 50 legions is always correct right and right there's something about not just having absolute power when you're the head of state but even being marked for power like being the kid going places. I imagine that Marcus wasn't always, as a young man, from this moment forward, getting accurate information, constructive feedback, real-time information that he could use was increasingly rare.

17:32Maria Semple: And so for him to not just be a good person as an emperor is I think something you have to give him credit for. Even for being a good writer, you have to give him some credit because I'm sure everyone told Nero he was an incredibly talented poet, right? Like, you're not getting real feedback. So to be even a half competent, benevolent despot is something you have to acknowledge there as an incredible feat, and certainly the exception that proves the rule.

18:02William Stephens: Yes, exactly. And Marcus was clearly very observant. I mean, he learned from his tutors and teachers, but he also learned from his other male role models. He learned from Antoninus Pius and just delivers this extended glowing encomium about how, you know, aptly named Pius in Latin, the core meaning there isn't piety, it's dutifulness. So, I mean, Antoninus the dutiful, right? That's what Antoninus Pius means, right? And so the impression that Antoninus made on Marcus was, you have millions of people who you're responsible for and to. And it's not like our democratic scheme, as you were saying before.

18:55William Stephens: It's not like that at all. And yet, there is this kind of pater familias, you know, the grandfather is responsible for all generations after him. And so to be king is to be a father to everyone. And they don't get to vote. Your word is law. And then this is also wrapped up, of course, with Roman religion, because the emperors are considered to be gods.

19:25Maria Semple: I mean, he has the same title as the modern day pope, right? Like he had a pontiff, his maximus, like he is also the pope.

19:34William Stephens: Well, exactly. And so when it comes to orthopraxy, when it comes to the rituals and the ceremonial practices in the religious festivals that the Romans practiced, they would sacrifice to the emperor, right? They were de-ways. They were divinities. So it's even more exalted than that of our pope today. Right. So, yes, he's the head of the church. Yes. But in addition to that, he's got this aura. He's got this divine glow and people sacrifice to him as a god. And so, I mean, as you're saying, I mean, I think it's exactly right. Everyone around you is a sycophant. They're not going to tell you tough love things that might offend you because they've seen what happens when you become, you know, the most powerful person in the empire.

20:27William Stephens: And it's just all too easy to be merciless and violent and punitive against people and ruin their lives or punish them corporately or kill them and execute them. And so for Marcus to avoid all of that, as we read the memoranda, which I will still call it, you know, clearly there's a lot of humility there. There's remarkable modesty. There's self-knowledge. He's aware of his own weaknesses and shortcomings, and he writes them down, right? He's got a temper, and he knows that that's a big problem. for anyone in a position of power to have a short temper that's an inch away from disaster and a bloodbath, right?

21:16William Stephens: And so he recognizes he's got to work hard at trying to be a good person because he's not going to be a good emperor unless he's a good person.

21:24Maria Semple: There's a famous statue, I don't know if you've seen it, of Seneca and Nero. It's by a French sculptor. The body language I just find endlessly fascinating. You know, sort of Seneca is there teaching. He has his scroll laid out. And Nero sort of hunched over like a petulant teenager, just sort of not interested in this at all. Cringing, yes. Yes. Obviously, we don't have a corresponding Marcus Aurelius statue, but you do get the sense both in practice and in the acknowledgements in meditations or memoranda that he had a very different relationship with those teachers at that same age. And in fact, all the way through to the end of his life, he remained and eager student.

22:06William Stephens: Yes, yes. And that's why book one of the memoranda is so special. Yeah. Because it's a dedication to all of those people who modeled a wide range of virtues to him. And he identifies them. He's taking inventory on all the positive character traits, all the strengths, all the virtues, all the excellences that his tutors and teachers and friends and relatives and parents modeled for him. And he's thanking them and the gods for putting him in this position to absorb all that like a sponge because he needs it. And Rome needs him to be the best that he can be. Right? You mentioned the statue. And so we don't have a kind of pensive pose statue of Marcus.

22:59William Stephens: What we have is the equestrian statue and other busts, right? One when he's a child that I have in my earlier book on Marcus's Reel is The Guide for the Perplexed, which is really fascinating to look at closely and analyze. But the big one, of course, is the equestrian statue. And in Marcus's time, he wasn't thought of primarily as a philosopher at all. He was a warrior. He was a general. He was leading campaigns for years and years and years. And he was in the saddle. And that's the equestrian. So that's what we see in the equestrian statue. And that's what most Romans saw when they saw Marcus, right?

23:43Maria Semple: Because they didn't see meditations. They didn't know that it existed. His reputation as a philosopher would have been perhaps because they saw him with his books in the Coliseum or something or because there's a handful of little anecdotes here or there about him being a studious person. But, yeah, they wouldn't have had any access. They'd see him on the coinage. Yes.

24:03William Stephens: They'd see him on the coins. That's the Marcus they knew. They'd see him in the busts. They'd see the busts, right? Right. That would be made every few years as he aged. We can track that, right? Right. Right. I mean, he was a closet philosopher, right? It was. It was a secret. And he was doing it privately, even in the letters he'd exchanged with Cornelius Franto. You know, they're talking about their illnesses and their aches and their pains endlessly over and over again in their correspondence. But Franto was a rhetorician. He wasn't a philosopher. You know, we don't have, like, Seneca's letters, right?

24:40William Stephens: We don't have Seneca writing, you know, to Lucilius. In Marcus's case, we don't have any of those texts. We just have the Fronto correspondence. But yeah, during his lifetime, he didn't have time to write philosophical tracts. Seneca was in a much better position than he was. And Epictetus, like Socrates, wasn't writing philosophy at all, so far as we can tell. It's Arian who took down Epictetus' discourses. So Marcus didn't have time to write treatises.

25:12Maria Semple: Well, it is interesting with Marcus, we so often go to that idea from Plato about being the philosopher king. But when I think of Marcus, I thought about this when I was reading your book. There's the line from Musonius Rufus, who said that every king should be a philosopher, but every philosopher should be a kingly person. And I think that's the interesting idea there, that it sort of works in two directions, that it's about having the ideas and then it's about having the character. And also, as you said, the presence, the gravitas, the seriousness, the ability to lead and the authority to lead that we seem to think like, oh, we just like our leaders to be a bit more philosophical.

25:53Maria Semple: But we'd also, I think, be better off if our philosophers had a bit more of that sort of practical seriousness and sense of duty and responsibility.

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