There Will Always Be People Who Don’t Get It | Hasan Minhaj Tests Ryan Holiday’s Stoic Knowledge

0:00Ryan Holiday: Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, into the real world.

0:14Ryan Holiday: There will always be people who don't get it. Do you think everyone understood why Cato was so alarmed about Caesar? Do you think everyone understood why Thrasia or Agrippinus refused to bend the knee to Nero? or why Rutilius Rufus made a legal martyr of himself when corrupt interests brought him up on false charges? Of course they didn't. In fact, Rutilius' friends begged him to defend himself. Cato and Thrasia and Agrippinus were seen as obstinate, alarmist, even annoying. People are busy. People are misinformed. People have skewed priorities and conflicts of interest. They're not always going to understand.

0:56Ryan Holiday: They're not always going to get it. whether it's politics or business or personal. You just can't expect everyone to see what you see. Honestly, if they did, it would probably mean that you're heading in the wrong direction. That's what Chrysippus said anyway, that if you wanted to follow a mob, he wouldn't have become a philosopher. Stoicism isn't about being appreciated. It's not about fitting in. It's about doing what's right. It's about saying what needs to be said. It's about being who you feel you need to be. So if you're waiting for your friends to understand you, if you're holding back until you get approval from family members or colleagues, if you hope 100 % of your audience is going to be on board, you're waiting for something that may never come.

1:41Ryan Holiday: Do what you believe is right. Do what you believe is just. The rest isn't up to you.

1:57Ryan Holiday: I don't know if you've seen a video or a talk from me lately, but you can tell I'm kind of on a sweater kick. I don't know why exactly that started, but the problem with this sweater kick is like finding ones that actually look good, that I like, and I'm not paying like an absurd, let's call it unstoic amount of money on them. And that's where today's sponsor comes in, quince. They've got great design, great styles, great fabrics, everyday essential that are effortless to wear. They're not too hot. They're not too cold. They're not too thin. They're not too thick. They work with top factories, cut out the middleman.

2:31Ryan Holiday: So you're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just great sweaters and clothes that you'll like. And you've probably seen me wear them in some of the Daily Stoic stuff. I got this Mongolian cashmere sweater. I got 100 % organic cotton sweater. They're comfortable. They're high quality. That's always the thing. Stop overcomplicating your wardrobe. You don't need a closet full of options. You just need some great staples that actually work. And right now, if you go to quince.com slash stoic for free shipping, you also get 365 day returns. That's a full year to build out your wardrobe and love it.

3:07Ryan Holiday: And you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to QUINCE.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. QUINCE.com. So I told you I was at this Airbnb here in Maui on this trip we took and, oh man, the mattresses were not good. I did not sleep well. The kids did not sleep well. I wish that they had Helix mattresses. If you've ever slept on a Helix, you will know why so many people love them. basically you take this helix sleep quiz that matches you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and sleep needs we've got the midnight mattress at our house it's you know medium firmness not too firm not too soft and that's probably why it is their top selling model helix is the most awarded mattress brand tested and reviewed by experts like forbes and wired they've got free shipping seamless delivery and the whole process is super simple they deliver the mattress right to your door with free shipping in the u.s and you can rest easy with the happy with Helix Guarantee that ensures seamless returns and exchanges.

4:15Ryan Holiday: Risk-free, customer-first experience. The Helix Guarantee is designed to ensure that you're completely satisfied with your new mattress and includes a 120-night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. Just go to helixsleep.com slash stoic for 27 % off. That's helixsleep.com slash stoic for 27 % sign off. Make sure you enter our show name at checkout so they can know we sent you. HelixSleep.com slash stoic.

4:45Ryan Holiday: Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Okay, so in the fall, I went and I did something in New York. And I posted about it on Instagram or something. And I got a text from Hassan Minaj, who said, hey, why didn't you tell me you were in town? We should have linked up. And I said, I didn't tell you I was in town for two reasons. One, I thought you live in like Connecticut. And two, I just didn't think you would want to hang out with me. And he said, no, no, no. First off, I have an office and a studio in New York. And I would love to see you tell me when you're going to be in New York next.

5:20Ryan Holiday: And we'll do the podcast and we'll get together. And I was like, sweet, that's amazing. Hassan, Minaj, and I, first off, I'm a huge fan of his comedy. but we had very different yet also very similar childhoods. We both grew up in Northern California. Although when people think Northern California, they don't think Sacramento or Davis, but that is Northern California. And it's a very, well, Joan Didion was right when she called it the Midwest of California. Anyways, I've gotten to know him. We got connected, I think, over something with the Sacramento Kings. He's a Kings fan. I'm a He'd read some of the books.

5:59Ryan Holiday: Anyways, he did have me come out to the studio, and we had a really awesome conversation. I want to bring you a little chunk of that. If you don't listen to his podcast, Hassan Minhaj Doesn't Know is hilarious. It's produced by Lemonada Media. You can watch it on YouTube. You've almost certainly seen a million of the clips. He's hilarious. It actually does a really great interview, and I thought I'd bring you a little chunk of that. Go listen to the whole episode. I'll link to that. But in the meantime, here's me talking with my friend, who I'm glad that I told I was in town.

6:38So we're going to play a simple game. I'm going to read you a quote from one of these 12 philosophers. You tell me who said it.

6:47Ryan Holiday: Okay. However, there is a catch. Some of these are from Kanye West. So will I know it by the virulent anti-Semitism? I mean, you're going to have to navigate this yourself. All right. Are you ready? Yes. Okay. Let's go with number one. The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts. Marcus Rilius. Classic. If a man knows not to which port he sails, no wind is favorable. Seneca. We suffer more in imagination than in reality. Giving up is harder than trying. That sounds like Kanye. Kanye West. Our work is never done. Kanye? Kanye. Correct. The fates guide the willing and drag the unwilling.

7:26Ooh, clientes. If you accomplish something good with hard work, the labor passes quickly, but the good endures. Musonius Rufus. Oh my God. I am a Nazi. Ah, ooh. Hmm. Just really, really think about this one.

7:39Ryan Holiday: Yeah, that sounds like Kanye. Kanye West. Why did Stoicism speak to you at a particular period of time in your life? I think it spoke to me for the reason it speaks to a lot of young men, which is, you know, how to live a good life, but also an interesting life, how to deal with setbacks and how to be resilient, how to sort of take these feelings and this energy inside you and direct it properly, that's not what they talk about in school. And it's not even really what they talk about in church anymore, right? And so Stoicism or ancient philosophy as as a framework for living, a way to design your life, I think that it was addressing a big hole in my upbringing.

8:27Ryan Holiday: And I think that's historically what, like imagine. But what was happening in your life that you didn't get from dad, coaches, the church, cousins, teachers, and more? So both me and Ryan were NorCal kids. Yes. So what was not happening at Granite Bay that needed to be filled here? Because by the way, dad didn't hug me, that part of the algorithm, that's catnip to me. Yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't say my dad never hugged me, but like I wasn't getting that sort of guidance about like, this is how to be a man. This is how to be a person. This is like, this is what we do. This is what we don't do. There's just kind of this assumption that you'll like, you'll pick it up as you go.

9:07Ryan Holiday: You know, there isn't like a tradition. There's no, you know, like there's no sort of, this is the coming of age thing. This is what we do when you turn 13 in our culture, right? There wasn't any of that. And so I think - You went to church, right? I did. I grew up Catholic until we moved across town. So you have mass, you have - Church was too far away. Okay. But were you baptized and all that stuff? I'm a confirmed Catholic. So I do think Stoicism resonated in a way because the teachings of Stoicism and Catholicism are pretty, they share the same cardinal virtues. Like cardinal comes from the Latin cardos, which means pivotal.

9:44Ryan Holiday: And so courage, discipline, justice, wisdom, those are the virtues that Zeno lays down in the fourth century BC that also are inscribed in every Catholic church. And what was it about specifically those teachings that resonated with you more than, say, Old Testament, New Testament, that stuff? Because a lot of this stuff predates the Bible. Yeah. I mean, what I think is interesting about the Stoics and a lot of philosophy is they're making a rational argument. They're not saying, hey, do this or don't do this, or you'll end up in hell. I think fundamentally, Stoicism is saying, like, don't do this because your life will be a form of hell, right?

10:21Ryan Holiday: Like, to not be in control of yourself, to... Like, the quote you mentioned from Musonius Rufus, he says, you know, if you do something easy in the pursuit of pleasure, the pleasure goes by quickly, but the shame endures. And then he says, but if you do something hard in pursuit of something good, the labor passes quickly, but the good endures. That is, I think, that overlaps with the sort of Christian teachings. But nowhere are they saying, like, also God will be mad at you. You know, like, also you will rot in hell. What they're trying to do is, are you saying basically it grapples with physical reality on earth as we see it, feel it, and experience it?

11:00Ryan Holiday: Yeah, I think it's making a relatively rational argument, a logical argument for why some things are good and some things are bad. How do you think it's so popular right now with titans of industry? You'll hear that Bill Clinton loves meditations. He'll read it every year. He revisits it. That's not new. I mean, first off, Stoicism was popular in the ancient world with the quote unquote elites, right? This is what you would send your son or daughter. Masonius Rufus writes this fascinating essay, you know, 2000 years ago about how, how the question is, should women be taught philosophy? And then the other essay is like, is virtue the same in a man as in a woman?

11:41Ryan Holiday: And his argument - Is he writing New York Times op-eds? Yes, yes, hot takes. but he's saying, yeah, ultimately like virtue is virtue. It doesn't know gender. So like the Stoics are grappling with sadly some of the same things we're still grappling with today. But the argument then was like, this is what you want to teach young people so they can grow up to be not just good people, but contributors and leaders in society. So I think it's sort of relevance with those people today shouldn't surprise us. I think it's more interesting that your sort of regular folks are interested in it. And that probably says something about what a train wreck the world is right now.

12:20Ryan Holiday: Like stoicism is not resurgent and popular because everything's amazing and going super well. Right, perhaps a guidebook or a handbook to the craziness that people are experiencing in their day to live. Yeah, like Cato's in the fall of the Roman Republic. Marcus Rillus is in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. Zeno is there, you know, when the sort of world created by Alexander the Great is falling apart. So, you know, it's popular again, you know, in the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Age of Revolutions, you know, the American Civil War. It's popular when shit feels like it's coming apart.

12:57So stoicism, from what I understand, is not a partisan philosophy. But it most recently has been hijacked by different partisan groups. And I wanted to talk to you about that because you're someone who has tried to research stoicism, dare I say, stoically. You know, like, hey, let me be cool, calm and collected and write about what these men were teaching. And you're a big reason why stoicism became so popular. But there's also been a huge rise of what I call broicism. Yes. The Manosphere loves this shit. If you just go to Twitter right now and you type in any of these names from the quiz, oh my God.

13:31The accounts that are reposting them, you know, I don't know if they're people that I would want to be like per se.

13:37Ryan Holiday: Which is weird because when I went to my publisher in 2012 and I was like, hey, I want to write about this obscure school of ancient philosophy. Yeah, yeah. They were not like, oh, that'll crush it with dudes. Like this is all an interesting turn of events. For you. For me too. Really? I mean, I understood and thought it could be popular, but I didn't think that it would be this enormous thing. You didn't think nerdy tech titans wouldn't read this stuff and be like, I could be Gerard Butler in 300? There is something about that idea of like. I mean, the Roman Empire for most dudes is the Roman Empire.

14:14But Ryan, now it's Michael Jordan, last shot. Marcus Aurelius quote. Kobe Bryant, final game. Marcus Aurelius quote. Like this is now a cottage industry, but it's something you talk about in the new book. And I'd love to ask you, what is the main difference between stoicism and broicism in your opinion?

14:32Ryan Holiday: There seems to be this tendency to look at the cardinal virtues of stoicism, which are courage. discipline, justice, and wisdom and be like, I don't have to bother with the third one, right? Like, I like courage. That's cool. I like self-discipline. I like moderation. I like resilience. And then obviously, you know, reading and learning and being smart, that's all cool. But you're telling me that I have to ascribe to a certain, you know, list of ethics that I have to give a shit about other human beings. I don't like that. And I get it. I mean, my primary and initial interest in stoicism is like, what can it do for me?

15:09Ryan Holiday: Right? Like, how can it make me better, stronger, faster, smarter? I get it. That's when you're 19, that's what's gonna be interesting to you. But like the thing Marcus really talks about most in meditation, it's like the phrase that appears the most is not, you know, like destroying your enemies or, you know, mastering your emotions or, you know, being super productive. He uses the Greek phrase, he's writing in Greek, but the phrase for the common good, which he refers to 80 times in meditation. So it was inherently a philosophy about our obligations and our responsibilities to and with other people.

15:49Ryan Holiday: And so broicism to me is stoicism when you remove any of the moral elements. So it's this recipe for being a better sociopath. And in some cases, I think being a better psychopath. And that's, you know, whatever Pete Hegseth thinks stoicism is, is not what I'm talking about. Sure. I don't know if you've seen Bobby Kennedy Jr. He was banging out pull-ups with Mr. Duffy, just like, hey, this is how we're going to fix infrastructure in this country. This is how we make people healthy again. You need to bang out 20 pull-ups right now. And there's a lot of people that go, you know what? Marcus Aurelius was a dictator though.

16:24At night, he writes in his journal, wastes no more time arguing about what a good man should be B1. But the next morning he's just out here butchering people and I'm sure denying them basic human rights and or democratic rights.

16:38Ryan Holiday: This is where studying the past requires putting on your sort of big boy pants. There's a Jeffersonian element to it. Like all men are created equal is a beautiful sentence that he didn't fully believe, but we can take it literally and we can sort of try to get a little bit closer to it. Like there's a passage in the beginning of Meditations where Marx Reuss thanks one of his friends for introducing him to Stoicism. And he says, you know, he's like, for introducing me to Helvidius and Cassius and all these different Stoics. And he says, because the Stoics conceived of, you know, a world of equal rights and personal liberty where rulers respect the rights of their subjects.

17:22Ryan Holiday: And he's describing a beautiful world, which the Roman empire was not remotely like. But that idea, again, it's Jeffersonian in another way, that is the world that inspires the founders 2 ,000 years later to take a big step towards getting to the ideals of the Roman Republic and the sort of classical virtue. So they're certainly not perfect. and we could list the innumerable flaws of the Stoics. And I have no problem holding Seneca both up as a inspiring heroic figure and a tragic, disgusting hypocrite. And I think that's perfectly acceptable to do.

18:19Ryan Holiday: Appreciate it. We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in the couple years we've been doing it. It's an honor. Please spread the word. Tell people about it. And this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say thank you.

18:51The semi-annual warehouse clearance event is happening now at Mattress Warehouse. This is your chance to save big with up to 65 % off mattresses warehouse-wide. Plus, get a free adjustable base with Solite Sealy mattresses, or get a purple mattress and save$300. These limited-time warehouse clearance deals won't last, and with our lifetime price guarantee, you can rest assured you're getting the best deal. The semi-annual warehouse clearance event, only at Mattress Warehouse. Visit mattresswarehouse.com to find a store near you.