Troy Baker, Molly Bloom, Alexander Ludwig, And Camila Cabello Share How They Were Introduced To Stoicism

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1:08But, you know, just hearing about that, that's not what stoicism is about. Stoicism is, to me, what you're going to do about it. And that's where GiveWell comes in. GiveWell is trusted by tens of thousands of donors each year because they provide free and independent research that helps you understand how to have a big impact. GiveWell has spent the last 18 years researching global health and poverty alleviation, and they direct funding to the highest impact opportunities. Over 150 ,000 donors have already trusted GiveWell to give more than$2.5 billion over the last several years, and research suggests that these donations will save over 300 ,000 lives.

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2:28Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

3:23Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I have this, I sort of have this dual experience, right? I hear from lots of random people, I'll get recognized and go, oh, total strangers will come up to me on the street and say that they read my books or they watch the YouTube videos. And then every once in a while I'll get like an Instagram DM or a tweet or I'll read it in a news article or something like some very well known person is talking about one of the books. And it's always really cool. And whether it's a regular person or some artist that sold millions of records or some billionaire, I usually go like, how did you find stoicism?

4:04That's like, how did you hear about it? And usually what happened is They were going through something and someone told them to read Marcus Aurelius and they struggled. And so they ended up starting with The Obstacles the Way. They're going through something and somebody gave them the daily stoic. Usually, it's just like how I found stoicism, right? I've told this story before, but I was in college and I was at this event in Los Angeles. I went up to the speaker and I said, hey, do you have any book recommendations for a kid like me? And they recommended Epictetus. I ended up reading Marcus Aurelius and my life was really never the same.

4:36So we all kind of have our little origin story, our introduction story to the Stoics, right? And that's why we're all here together listening to this. But I'm always fascinated in the specifics of people's stories. How did they find Stoicism? What was going on in their life? Why did it speak to them? Who did they start with, right? Part of the reason I wrote The Daily Stoic is having those conversations. People go, oh, you know, I tried to read Epictetus like 30 years ago and it didn't work for me. or I got this bad translation of meditations for free or it was the cheapest one and I just couldn't make my way through it.

5:11I'm just curious about people's introduction to stoicism, what it means to them, what they took from it, why it hit them. That's just something that's always gotten me really excited. And I think these stories are illustrated. They can tell us, I think, by hearing other people's stories, it helps me understand my own. and then it also helps me refer to and talk about stoicism to other people. So anyways, I had an idea for an episode today. It's a question you've maybe heard me ask on the podcast before. You've been curious about guests when I didn't ask it. I wanted to put together kind of a compilation of interesting origin stories with stoicism and that's what we're going to do in today's episode.

5:53You'll hear from Molly Bloom, if you haven't seen the movie Molly's Game, fascinating life story, Alexander Ludwig, an actor, Troy Baker, interesting guy in the video game space, Camila Cabello, who's sold millions and millions of albums, one of the most popular musicians in the world. You'll hear from a bunch of interesting folks on the interesting ways they came to Stoicism. I think you'll like it.

6:27I think almost every review that I read of the movie talked about Jessica Chastain's stoicism, like using it in the lowercase sense. But like multiple reviews that I read all commented on on that, that aspect of her personality. And I, so I was curious, because we've never met how, how much of that, uh, you found rang true in you or, uh, was that what you aspire to be? Well, it's interesting because I think I started out life incredibly sensitive and emotional. and then sort of formulated through sports, through the type of father I was raised by, through watching poker and understanding the value of game theory and other rational.

7:25Then I was a philosophy minor in school, so I developed stoicism to survive myself And because I saw that it was, you know, both important for success in the world, but also for surviving your life. Yeah. When you're kind of wired that way. Yeah, it must be interesting as an athlete, like you have to be super passionate about what you do. And you have to be sort of deeply emotionally invested in what you're doing. and yet at the same time, figure out a way to strip emotion out of what you're doing as you're doing it because you rarely make good decisions out of emotion. No question. So it's like, be all in on training, be all in on, you know, being as committed as you can and then learn how to surrender and detach.

8:27Yeah. And you have to feel the outcomes very intensely, but then also immediately move on from them and wipe the slate clean, victory or defeat. And it's mostly defeat, right? Especially when you are ascending. Anytime you're aspiring to do something, you start out at the bottom and you suck forever. And then you don't one day, hopefully. But yeah. There's a great quote from Ira Glasser. He was talking to someone who wanted to be in radio or something. And he said, when you're starting out, there's a gap between talent and taste. So early on, your taste, or I guess in sports, it'd be like your standards for what is good or not good is almost always going to be much higher than you're physically capable of achieving, especially on at least in any consistent basis.

9:27So you have to be able to, to, to, to be comfortable with that, that like, it feels like what you're doing is shit compared to your heroes, but that's because they're way, way better than you. And yet you can't let that discourage you or you'll never actually get to where they are. Right, yeah. And I think that that's where most people, because you have to stay in that suckiness and that sort of like, it feels so far away and just the effort without return phase for so long. And I think that's where most people give up. Yeah, I'm going through that right now because I'm doing this series of four books in four years.

10:07So usually when you do a big project, there's like the beginning part, It's insane. I don't know what I was thinking. Insane.

10:17Usually you start out of the thing and then there's the curve and it gets better and better and better. And then it gets to whatever the final product is, which is never perfect, but you're proud of it. And then there's usually a big gap. Sorry about gaps. There's a gap between starting the next one. But on these projects, the gap between finished, like after I finished the first book and then was at, you know, page zero of the second one was only a few months. So it was it was disorienting and really discouraging because you're like three months ago you were editing almost. I don't want to say perfect, but almost publishable prose.

10:54And then, you know, three months later, you're in, as Hemingway said, the first draft of everything is shit. you're deep in the shit of it. And if you can't, if you feel that, if you're like, this is shit, so I'm shit, I quit, right? You won't get where you want to go. I have to imagine, because you came back from a number of injuries too, that must be that hard for an athlete in that sense where you're like, I was so good at this. I could do this in my sleep. And now I suck. mm-hmm for sure I mean I you know I was uh my brothers and I were competing in mogul skiing we I was winning all the time I was you know 10 11 years old everyone was super excited about the future and then I got diagnosed with really severe scoliosis my spine was curved at like a 63 degree recurve and they had to essentially fuse my top 11 vertebrae together.

11:56Well, first they had to try to straighten my spine, fuse the vertebrae together, put two metal rods down the side. And so, you know, getting back on the mountain, which was my doctors said, no, everyone said no, but I, uh, I just knew I had to try it, but yeah, to try to learn how to use your body again. and especially at 12 years old when everyone's telling you this is not going to be possible. For sure. To feel also that your body's not responding in that way, but then to just have this sort of, yeah, it was so in me, the fire was so in me that I just, I had to do it. And that was such a profound lesson in my life that, But the odds can be sacked against you.

12:46The experts can be telling you that it's not possible. Your own body and mind can be telling you that it's not possible. But if you can tap into that sort of fury, it can overcome all that stuff. It's a tough way to go against the grain like that. That must have been weird because I remember being checked for scoliosis. Like they would line us all up in school and they would check you, but nobody ever had it. But you apparently actually got it. And I would always get checked in those things. And they're like, you look great. You know, these aren't qualified medical professionals. It's your second grade math teacher.

13:30Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. So that was a trip, you know, but, but I think that that informed me and, and, you know, taught me from a young age that life is more malleable than they, than they tell you it is, you know? But it's not, it's not infinitely malleable, right? Because at some point that road for you as a skier ends, right? And it must be that I, that must be so hard, especially for athletes. But I think for any, it's like, you got where you were by defying the odds, by not listening to pronouncements by rejecting the certainty that this or that was impossible or over or whatever. But you're on borrowed time.

14:20It doesn't last forever. Eventually, they're right. And so knowing when to listen and not to listen is everything. Yeah. Yeah. And so was it, if you have been the person who was like, fuck you, you're wrong your whole life. And then how do you come to terms with the dream ending? that was a another um incredibly difficult but then the lesson that came from it i've used my whole life and so i was at the university of colorado um i made it all the way to i made it to the us ski team i was third overall in north america i and i made it to nationals that year, which was a Olympic qualifying event.

15:14And then I fell and just knew that I didn't have four more years in me. And I went back to, I went back to school. I had just taken the LSATs and I say this all the time because in the movie, my LSAT score was like perfect, but that's not what it was in real life. Like Sorkin inflated my LSAT score, but I did pretty well. And that was kind of the next move. But I always thought that I would end up going to law school after skiing world cup or hopefully going to the Olympics, but that's not how it happened. So I went back to the university of Colorado. I was applying to law schools and I, I was just heartbroken, just couldn't move past it.

15:56I would, I didn't know who I was. I would stay up all night just trying to, what if I had chosen a different line? Like, you know, I couldn't get past it. And so finally I called my dad and my dad's a psychologist. Another thing I always say is growing up with a psychologist for a father when you're a teenager is like the worst thing ever, but it's kind of, it can be really great as, as an adult. Cause you have this therapist on call. And, and he said, look, you know, this is, this is a sort of watershed moment for you. you have to start to be able to establish some agency over what's going on in your head.

16:41Because I was so stuck in this loop and I couldn't separate myself from just this feeling that life was over. And so he and I had lots of talks about, and this was, I guess, my first introduction to mindfulness is being able to observe the thoughts, observe what's going on in your head and rise above it or move your focus to something else or surrender that. And instead of just getting caught into that loop over and over and letting it just destroy you. And so he taught me to be, to kind of train in that. You know, he was like, it's just like training and skiing where you're going to observe these thoughts.

17:22These negative thoughts are going to come into your mind. And, you know, on, on, on your good days, you're going to be able to just detach from it on your bad days, sometimes you got to go to war with that voice. You know, sometimes you got to get inside and be like, fuck this, F this, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm 21 years old. This is not the end of my life. And he really taught me how to start kind of establishing some agency over that. Later down the line, I had to learn it in a much more significant way. But But so I learned how to kind of overcome it through mindfulness and through sometimes going to battle.

18:04Well, it's acceptance, right? It comes down to at a certain point, you have to face facts. You have to accept things. You can't always – no amount of willpower can defy – it's interesting because the Stoics go there's stuff that's in our control and the stuff that's out of our control. which is true. There's, you know, like, and we're really bad at making that distinction, but the reality is there's also stuff that's kind of in the gray area in the middle. And those are the things that you can kind of say, fuck you too. Like there's the stuff that's on the far end of the spectrum that looks at like it's, it's outside your control, but actually it's 1 % in your control.

18:43And if you're super talented and skilled and lucky and all these other things, you can flip what other people think is impossible, but, but it's sort of knowing, you know, the limits of that ability to influence that then, you know, puts you face to face with the stuff that you have to accept. Like, Hey, this is the end of the road for me in this thing. This is what my body can handle or can't handle. This is what I, you know, my heart's not in it or like, just, just like, uh, you know, in poker, you got to know when to fold them. Absolutely. That's, that's, well, you know, I, I talked to Annie Duke recently and she was talking about this is like, we think about like quitting, she was saying is this sort of all or nothing thing when in fact, it's kind of like, I don't think she said this, am I making it up?

19:30It's kind of like a Russian nesting doll. There's like, you know, there's quitting the hand, there's quitting the game that you're in. And then there's quitting playing all together, like period, right? So it's like, just because you're facing facts, you're resigning in one aspect doesn't mean you have resigned yourself completely. Do you know what I mean? I think understanding that accepting something doesn't mean you become instantly passive and given up all agency over your life. You just come to the end of one specific road. Yeah. And I think being able to have that ability to recognize when it's the end of the road, to pivot, I mean, I think that that is incredibly powerful.

20:16I think, you know, so many people get stuck and aren't able to let go, aren't able to surrender something, aren't able to get into acceptance. To me, those are incredibly powerful skills to have. It's powerful. That's not to say it's pleasant. It's unpleasant as hell. When you don't get your way, when you have to walk away from something that you've become so identified with. Well, you have your favorite Churchill quote in the book, the one about going from failure to failure, you know, sort of unbroken. But I also love his famous quote about, you know, never, ever, ever, ever, ever give in. And then he gives the two conditions under which you absolutely should give in.

21:02Yeah. Yeah, he's got a lot of great quotes. Yes. Well, but we don't like that. We like the idea of you never, ever quit. But if you never quit, I mean, that's how you die. You know what I mean? Like that's how you get yourself in serious trouble or you just end up throwing yourself against a wall or you pointlessly play a losing hand. Or you end up getting assaulted by the mob and arrested by 17 FBI agents.

21:36So I'm not sure I can stand behind. you never, ever, ever quit anymore after that experience. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, yeah. What if you're doing the wrong thing, right? Or what if it's the wrong thing for you? Or what if it's the wrong time? I mean, there's a bunch of reasons. That's not to say, again, you quit entirely, you quit working at all, or even that you have to quit that thing. But the idea that timing doesn't matter, place doesn't, all these factors matter about when you should do something or continue doing something. Absolutely. And I mean, you know, my, what I learned, I learned so many things, but one of the things that one of the safety guards I have now in place is I have what I call like my panel of people who I really believe in, in their rationality.

22:25I believe in their, their ability to think things through. I believe that they're not fear-based people, but they're rational people. And so when I have these great ideas or I'm feeling like maybe I'm a little over my head here, I bring it to the panel because I, on my own, will chase it into hell. Straight into hell. Your board of advisors. I think about – I have that group too where like mostly what I want from them, it's like here's what I want to do. Here's why I think it's a good idea. here's why I think it's going to work. Like I, it's like, look, a lot of people, it's like, they're like, I'm thinking of starting my own business and everyone's around them.

23:10It's like, no, you got to get a job. You got to do something safe. Most people, you have the people around you who convince you why you shouldn't put yourself out there. But I think if you're entrepreneur or driven or talented or elite in what you do, you have the opposite problem and you have to cultivate the people around you that can, you can go to and go, tell me why this is a really bad idea. Like, tell me what I'm not. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to hand select those people very carefully. And sometimes you don't listen to them, but I think, uh, I think it's a great exercise. Yes, for sure.

23:48No, I, I, I tried. And one of the things I found with those people is I try to go So like, I want to make sure that I frame it in such a way that I'm not tipping my hand. Like, what do you think of this? Or if I think it's a really good idea, I'll go to them explaining why I think it's a bad idea. Like actually trying to make my own case. So they'll either be like, yeah, I think you're right. Like thinking that they're telling me what I want to hear, but they're actually giving me, you know, uh, honest, the honest take on it. Cause I think so often the reason we don't get that feedback is that people don't want to hurt our feelings.

24:31Yeah. And my panel doesn't care about hurting my feelings. People are like, I'm going to, you know, there's very few people in life that will be super honest with you. Um, and if you can find those people, I think you keep them and you don't discourage them from, cause it's a gift, you know? And understanding the incentives or the bias operating on the people around you. Like I was just talking to my agent about something and my agent's great and we have a long relation. I trust him, et cetera. But I have to be aware of the fact that, you know, this way involves a large commission for him and this way involves nothing for him.

25:11As a human being, that is going to influence how he sees things. Of course. Yeah. You have to, you have to figure all that in and make sure that you're the people that are sitting on your panel aren't going to be by, I mean, for that one, maybe, maybe he's off. Or you just get someone, someone else's opinion to counterbalance that. And if they agree, great. If they don't, then there's something more you have to explore there. Right. Right. No. And so if they were only financial biases, it would be so much easier. The problem in life is that it's more often like someone's identity is tied up in something.

25:52And so you're not even totally sure why they're reacting so strongly to this or that, or steering you this way or that way. And, you know, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with something that happened to them 20 years ago or whatever. Yeah. I mean, human psychology is endlessly fascinating and it is also sometimes a bit sneaky. It's very sneaky. Even to them, because so much of what's going on is subconscious. Yeah, we like to think we're these super rational, super controlled people. And we're the opposite of that. Opposite, super emotional. Yeah. Well, that's what I thought was so fascinating about the games in the book, which is that like you have these super talented, super powerful, super well off people.

26:51and they kind of have this like secret addiction, basically. They're like totally powerless over this like habit or, you know, activity that they're hooked on. Most of them, yes. And I didn't recognize that in the beginning. Yeah. Because I came into it, you know, I basically was just going to take a year off and go to LA because I wanted to be warm for a year. I had been chasing winter my whole life. I mean, even during the summers, we'd go train. places where there was snow. So before I headed to law school, before I went into another very serious regimented life career, I just wanted to be young and be a kid and be warm for a year.

27:37And so I ended up just being a cocktail waitress in the beginning for these games. And I was in my early 20s and from a small town. And I thought people that had made it to the places that these people had made it. Had it all under control. Yeah. You know, I thought their money was endless. I thought their self-control and their agency over themselves in the world was rock solid. You know, you're just, you have these people on a pedestal and really quickly, it became apparent that that was not the truth.

28:31So I heard stoicism helped you quit drinking. Is that true? Yeah. Stoicism has been, first off, not to pump your tires. You are my favorite author. Well, thank you. Hands down. I'll take it. Stoicism to me changed my life. and I'm not the kind of guy and this is something I need to continue to work on that can just sit on a couch and read for hours. Sure. So a lot of the books that I, I, I read, I read with my ears, whatever works, but, um, no, stoicism has, has had a huge impact in my life. Do you remember how you found it? Um, it, there was always like nuggets in other books that I read. Like I loved like a lot of different self-improvement books or whatever, and you'd find nuggets of it.

29:18And I love history. So every once in a while I'd hear these things, like a quote from Aristotle, like freedom is obedience to self-formulated rules, right? Or something like that. And you're just like, huh. And then you hear other things. And then, um, it was really your books that introduced me on a whole nother level to it. And of course, Duncan and myself and Duncan Penn, who I think you had on this podcast, yeah, is somebody who I talk about it with all the time as well. Really? Yeah. Interesting. All right, so walk me through, how does stoicism help you get sober? So people think that rehab, people who haven't been, is like, I think they have this preconceived notion that there's like this pill they give you And suddenly it, it, it just all goes away, you know, and you had to rehab and you come out and things are just fine.

30:11Um, and what I realized it was for me when I was, uh, there, um, is it's a deep dive into why we make the choices we make and why we're so self-destructive. Yeah. Um, as human beings. And after you do, after you start understanding more about what is kind of triggering you on this journey, the, the answer, um, to these, to these kind of insecurities is discipline. Um, and it is a structure and people, it's funny as I've read more as I get older and the more things I've taught myself, I've realized that, um, a lot of, a lot of the spiritual practices or a lot of, um, books that I've read are, are almost saying the same thing in different ways.

31:01Sure. Like the, this, the theme that I found most important to me is that for lack of a better word, discipline is destiny. Um, and, and that has been my way out of, uh, the turbulence in my life back, back in the day. Yeah. I think like, uh, if anyone's ever been to physical therapy or rehabbed from an injury, you get the sense that it's like, oh, I'm going to be worked on. I'm going to go and I'm going to get massages or this kind of treatment or this medicine. But really they're like, no, here's the work that you have to do. Right. And it's the same for, I think the other forms of rehab. Like it's, they don't, you don't go there and then they're like, here are all the secrets to not drinking or doing this or that anymore.

31:47what they're like is here are the things that you have to do every single day of your life. And the second you stop, like, as they say, they say it works if you work it, right? Like if you do that work, then you'll stay sober. If you don't do that work, you won't. And it's really, really hard work. It's like the hardest work because it's on yourself and it's against habits or practices or assumptions you've had your whole life. Yeah. A hundred percent. It's, I mean, and, and some people refer that as refer to that as the program. Yes. Really. It's just your program. It's whatever you need to do every day, um, to, to center yourself and to feel grounded.

32:29And admittedly there's days where I'm not as good. Yeah. Sure. And there's days that I am. And I think one of the things I'm really trying to fine tune right now is, is how to do this when things that are out of my control are taking me out of my element. Like I'm not going to be on my farm in Bastrop, you know, I'm not going to be in my, my, my element. I'm going to be traveling and overseas. And I think that's, that is an art in itself is how to, how to do those, those basic things that will center you for the rest of the day. Cause that's really all the program is once you've understood what is kind of fueling, um, those self-destructive behaviors.

33:06What, isn't there an acronym for like HALT? HALT. Yeah. Yeah. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And then I add thirsty. Cause I don't know why they don't bring that in too. I'm like, I'm like, there's times. And basically all that saying is, here's something I realized. I think whenever you're sitting there and you're going like, man, like I just, I need a vacation. Like I just need to be in Mexico right now. Or damn, like I wish my house was bigger. I just wish I was in a bigger house. I find it so funny because I'm like, do you actually want to be in Mexico right now? Or do you like the person you think you're going to be in Mexico right now?

33:45Yes. And it's the same with that house, right? Or do you like the person you've become to be in that? And I think it's kind of the same theme from your book. It's just like you get what you are. Yes. So just be the best version of yourself as possible. Well, it's funny in meditations, there's a passage where Marcus realizes like doing exactly that. He's like, I know you think you want to get away from it all, like in the country or the beach or whatever. And he's like, but actually whatever you need is inside of you right now. He says like, you can retreat and go on vacation inside your own soul right now.

34:22And I think it's true, right? We think, okay, if I can just get away from all these external things, then I won't feel what I'm feeling. and obviously sometimes that's what we do and then sometimes we do like a substance or a thought pattern or whatever as the other version of escape. But what we really just have to deal with is whatever that feeling is. If you can deal with that feeling and process it and work on it, that's actually a more sustainable and permanent solution to that thing. But I think to me, one of the things that addiction is is like a sort of a proven pattern where whenever you get that feeling, you do that bad thing, that thing you're not supposed to do.

35:04And then the relief becomes associated with that feeling, even if it's also destroying your life at the same time. 100%. And it's your coping mechanism. It is your higher power. It's what you go to. It's like we fall on our habits. And if that's your habit, you're going to fall on that. Right. But I, you know, I'm so grateful for stoicism in my life. And I think that so many young kids right now, especially people growing up in this world with social media and just being flooded by these self-promoting people. And I'm not saying that there's any, like everybody, you know, has their own life and I'm not about to judge them, but But it's just, if I was a kid growing up and like my idols were some of the things that I see now, it's very scary because I think that it just kind of can.

36:01We don't understand that it's not real. Exactly. That it's a performance. Yes. And in some cases, it's literally not real because there's filters on top of it and there's editing on top of it. And you don't understand that that is not actual life. That is fake life. the highlight reel of people's life. Or for some of these business gurus, this is their way of getting you to sign up for something, right? Yes, yes. You think Andrew Tate or whatever is a successful whatever, but actually his only success is selling you stuff. Exactly. Well, speaking of your show Heels, it's like watching professional wrestling and not knowing that it's fake.

36:41Yes. That it's all scripted, that it's designed to make you feel good about some people, bad about some people, vicariously follow along, stimulate sort of very primal urges, which when it is presented as entertainment, there's absolutely no problem with it. The problem is it's not. Like these are, you're following these parenting bloggers and going like, why am I shitty? Because my house isn't clean like theirs. And you don't understand that they picked this location that they're shooting from because you can't see what's on the other side of the couch, which is the same mess that's in your house or that the house is a rental or the car is a rental yeah exactly and and i just feel like it's this it's this kind of teaching for people that that really is the way out because if i could sum up everything that i've read into a few words uh from you, it's, you're going to be okay.

37:37You're, it's going to be okay. Follow this. Like, like, because I think that, um, everyone is being made to feel like they're not good enough right now, you know, in the world. Um, and through this, you realize that you can do that for yourself, you know, through these, these small practices that, um, this everyday routine that you don't need validation externally, that this all comes internally and happiness isn't something to be gotten. It is the way, you know? You know what I like about that HAL acronym though, is that like, I think we think people that are like sober or in great shape or really successful, like we think that they're just sort of gutting it out with sheer superhuman strength all the time.

38:25Right. That like, they just always do the right thing, that they are never tempted, that it's never hard for them. And that's not only is that not true, but the real secret is just trying to avoid the scenarios or the environments where you are vulnerable to not being who you want to be. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you're like, Hey, I make bad decisions when I'm upset, right? You just try not to make fewer decisions when you're upset. It's not like you just magically don't have a temper. No, right. Like everyone has a temper, but you try to be the person that goes, Hey, these are my processes.

39:05These are the systems I have. This is a little bit of self-discipline I have that says, Hey, when I'm pissed off, I write the email by don't send it. Right. Or like my Twitter account is on somebody else's phone. So I don't have the ability to angrily fire something off when I'm in the middle of a contract negotiate or whatever. Right. Like You think about how do you set up processes so you don't make bad decisions when you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I read this study once that was saying most fights between couples happen when one or more of them is hungry. And you're like, oh yeah, right.

39:41I totally believe that. You're not actually fighting about whose fault it was that you're late. You're fighting because you were trying to get to a restaurant and you're not at the restaurant and you're both hungry. And when you realize that, you're like, let's just table this discussion until after we eat. And not only are we not actually going to have to have the discussion later, but like we're both going to apologize. We're both going to admit we're wrong. Yeah. Because we'll be different people then. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. But I also feel like it's – I feel like so many people, including myself, want to follow this – what's the right way?

40:22Sure. What's the right way to do it, right? And the right way is the way that works for you. Yes. And I feel like that's something that I struggled to figure out along the way as I was like, oh, everyone has just what works for them. You know, some people can survive on less sleep and be totally fine. I'm not one of those people. I never have been. And chances are, though, you're not one of those people. If you think you're one of those people, you're probably fooling yourself, right? But like, yes, I get what you're saying. But that's interesting to me because I saw that. I actually read that book, Why We Sleep, that author, right?

41:00And that's like the percentage of people who can actually do that is staggeringly low. You're the exception that proves the rule. Yeah. Well, how much sleep do you get a night? I need like at least eight. I can function on seven. And if it's less than seven, I'm like trash. And are you edgy? Yes. Like you're moody? Yes. Okay. See, so me too. Yeah. Yeah. I need to sleep. And like, obviously when you have kids or you're working, like there's, you know, I was just like, just did this talk and I had to like get up at four in the morning to catch a flight. There's definitely like, I can do it. Yeah, of course.

41:36just, I think what you realize is you're like, what are the conditions that more often than not, I do my best? Yes. Right. Like, um, the other day we, we took our kids to this like water park. And so we spent the night and then we drove back and I came here to the office. We got back at like two in the afternoon and there was something I had to write. And so I get in the office. Normally my routine is I get up early, I go on this walk. I write in the morning and I'm done. Um, but for, for whatever reason, this day it was flipped. Like I got in the office at two. And as I sat down, to record it or to write.

42:09Um, it was just garbage. Like I wasn't feeling it and it was, it's actually, I'm actually really glad it happened because I was like, Oh yeah, this is why I have my routine because who I am at 2 PM is a fundamentally different person than who I am at 7 AM as a writer. I can do a phone call at, you know, at 8 AM and be just as get on the phone at 2 p.m. or whatever, right? I can run at those times. But as far as who I need to be to do my main thing, which is writing, that's the time I have to do it at. And understanding that and then building around that is really important. So it's like, if I'm trying to write it too and it's not happening, I don't like beat myself up and go like, why am I not good?

42:52You know, why are, maybe I'm an imposter. I don't think that. I just understand that I am not setting myself up for success in that environment. And ideally you want to make, you want to build your life and make your decisions when it's in your control around the times and places and tools that make you the person that you want to be. And that's like a huge part of it. So it's like, I think sometimes people think it's about discipline in the moment, which it is, but it's also about the discipline way before that. A good example actually with sleep is like, people go like, I'm not a morning person or I have trouble getting out of bed in the morning.

43:31And that's actually not a matter of discipline. The discipline is you should have gone to bed earlier, right? That was my question for you. When do you go to bed? Yeah. If it's at 10, 1030, then I'm like on top of it. And if it's lingering and lagging, that's like that lapse of discipline doesn't feel like a big lapse of discipline. But the next day or the day after, that's the lagging indicator of whether I made that right decision. And I think this is true for lots of things. It's like someone's sobriety is not just simply like in this moment, do you drink or not drink? Do you accept the past or not the past?

44:09But it's, did you decide to go to a meeting six days ago or five days ago or four days ago or three days ago? right? Like when you, it's when you start blowing off the little things, the lagging, or the, the, the, when you, it's when you start blowing off the little things leading up to it, that you're setting yourself up, you're setting yourself up for an inevitable failure or lapse of discipline when it really counts. Yeah. And I think, I mean, literally that is the theme of discipline is destiny, right? The little things are the big things in life, in your career, in your relationship, in everything.

44:47And that's something that took me so long to realize in my life. You know, and when it comes to drinking, it's like, if you're not on top of your sobriety, your addict is doing push-ups in the parking lot, right? Like it's getting, it's getting ready for you for that moment where it, where it jumps you, you know? And I think I always have to be careful with myself about when I am feeling good, when I do feel like I have it under control, right? Because it's always going to be there. I'm always going to be an addict. It's just where I, you know, where, where I used to put my time and energy into things that were self-destructive.

45:27I now put them into things that are creative and, and, you know, going to help me move my life and my family's life forward. And that can be a huge asset too. So what once was kind of destroying my life is now changed my life for the better in ways I could never have imagined. You know, five years ago, yeah, I was in rehab in Arizona. I had no idea what my life was going to hold. And, And it's actually insane when they talk about the promises and about, you know, all these things that will happen if you just love yourself, if you just follow this program, if you just do the hard work. And even me, it's like, oh, I hope so.

46:11I mean, I guess, I mean, everything else isn't working. So I guess I'll try this. It's insane. I look back and I just go, how was that five years? Yeah. Like the things that have changed in my life is just, it's just magical.

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48:35So how did you come to Stoicism? Oh man. I, have you ever broken up with a friend? I suppose. Yeah. I have broken up. I've had relationships go South and I was a serial monogamist as a friend of mine told me. So I would jump from one relationship to another. No, like romantic relationships, but I'd never broken up with a friend. And this is 2016. You don't just ghost. You actually have a breakup. There was a breakup and which I'm weird, man. I, I went into, this is a separate thing, but like, I was the guy who called my agent. I was like, Hey, can we have a meeting? They're like, yeah. So I went to the new office and then I was like, Hey, so I'm out and we need to find an exit strategy that is to meet with both.

49:19And they were like, wait a minute, nobody, you email us. I'm like, you hired me to do it to your face. But this was a, a relationship that there was so much anger there. And I realized it was like, Oh, here's what's happening. I am preventing you from being the person that you are trying to be. And you are preventing, I'm allowing you to prevent me from being the person that I want to be. So instead of us getting frustrated at each other, this relationship is no longer, it's run its course and I'm out. When I did that, I didn't realize that I had made this person the linchpin in my entire social network.

49:56so once I removed that linchpin I'm now untethered to that social network right they got all the friends and the friend divorce yes and so all of a sudden I find myself lost and I had rock bottom man it was it was the darkest that I've ever been in my life and there are pools of thought that one that I began swimming in that I was like, I might need to reach out for some help. So I found myself, um, in Glasgow, Scotland, I do a lot of comic con conventions and it's really cool. Um, it's a great interaction. I get to hear like things that I've been a part of, what it means to people. And I get to share in that community.

50:43But then also you get like the hotel bar conversations to where it's like people that you never would have thought you would have been across or just kind of random people come into your life, come into my life. And I get to commune with them for a little bit. And then we're onto our own thing. And I ended up opening up to this guy named Igor. In the hotel bar? He's a, yeah, he's, he's with a friend of mine, but he's like the plus one. He's just like the guy that tags along. And I hope he listens to this. He, we're talking about different stuff. And he goes, have you ever read meditations? I was like, yeah, I've meditated before.

51:15He goes, no, no, no. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius and I shit you not, I was like are you talking about the guy from Gladiator? He was like, you know that was a real emperor. I'm like, I'm going to allow myself to be the stupidest person in this conversation openly. So please teach me. He was like here's a book. He showed it to me on Amazon and he goes, it's$4.99. It's the blue Dover Thrift edition. He was like this is the George S. Long translation. It's the one that will retain kind of the King James-ness of it which you will vibe with but you need to get this. It's like 99 pages. I'm like, okay.

51:46Get this, get home, the book's waiting for me because we live in a magical world where things can get to us in 24 hours. See, when I bought Meditations, I had to buy two other books to get free shipping. Oh, cool. Sweet. Because Amazon Prime did not exist yet. Otherwise you had to pay an arm and a leg to get it. Yes. So I get this book and I made this, I don't know why, but I always had struggled with telling people, they said, have you ever read this? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Have you ever seen this? Absolutely. And a few years before then I had been, we're in my apartment and some friends of ours, we had just all auditioned for this aliens game and it was three of my closest friends and we're like, man, I really feel like I want to rewatch aliens.

52:33I'm like, yeah, let's rewatch that classic movie. And so we walked in from my apartment, you could walk outside, go across the street. On the other side of the street was a blockbuster. and so we get aliens we come back home and we sit down and we pop it in and title screen comes up and i press pause like i just want you guys know i've never seen this movie before yeah and it came out like i blurted it out and what i realized in that moment was that the joy that people get to be there for the first time is one of the greatest it's like oh i can't i don't want to watch this. I want to watch you watch this.

53:12And so I found this new joy in, um, humbling myself, getting over, instead of pretending and saying, I want to watch this. So I decided to make this commitment that I wasn't going to just burn through this book. And I was like, I'm going to take time. And there's this old far side cartoon where Gary Larson drew this kid with this really, really small head. And he has his hand up. He goes, teacher, can I be excused? my brain is full. And I said, I will either stop when this book stops me. Um, or I will only read an entry a day. Yeah. And so it took me 18 months to get through meditations. And there's only two books that I've read.

53:54Um, sorry, three, including a graphic novel. Um, why the last man, um, Um, believe it or not, didn't cry in the road. Um, the book or the movie? We don't talk about the movie. We'll talk about the book. Um, one of the best opening lines in a book. Um, if the, if the child was not the word of God, then God never spoke. It's one of the best lines that Cormac McCarthy has ever written. Um, city of thieves city. If you've never read city of thieves, David Benioff, it's a wonderful story about his grandfather. um half fiction half not you don't know which is which um but i got to the end of that and i cried and i got to the end of meditations and i cried um partially because the asper you talk about the beauty of it he dies he dies um he talks about that though yeah and talk about departing this life satisfied and i was like that's the goal depart this life satisfied and to not and he talks about being an actor which i thought was pretty cool too he says don't react yeah curtain and don't get upset because your time is done.

55:00You did your thing to get off stage. It's done. It's okay. I was just talking to someone about this the other day. The more you read meditation, the more experiences you have, the different, you pick up different things. So what I took me till the pandemic to pick up on this fact that as he's wrapping up meditations, he gets probably the plague. He knows that he's dying. and he has to send his son away because they can't be near each other because he can't let his son get the plague. And so you just think about like the period on the sentence of all of the things that Marcus goes through. However flawed Commodus is, and Commodus seems to be about as bad as Joaquin Phoenix's character presents him as.

55:47He was his only son that was still alive, right? So he buries all these children and then in his last moments, because of the job and then because of, as it was in COVID, it was during the Antonine Plague. You die alone. Yeah, you die alone. And still he manages to pull out this kind of beautiful, hopeful passage that's full of gratitude and appreciation and almost like a fearlessness for whatever's happening. do you know that's that's that's practicing what you preach i guess are you familiar like what's attributed to be his last words yeah go to the rising sun for i am setting what i've heard was um and now if you will grant me um i will take my leave and pass on ahead of you which is the the other one was um uh don't weep for me um or why he get almost like angry yeah why are you weeping for me is like, this is not my first death.

56:53This is my last. As I understand it, he said something like, why are you crying for me? Think of your own death and think of the death of all of the people that have what I have. But yeah. And you know what Antoninus's last words were? So Marcus's stepfather. So basically they think that you have these last words and then there's sort of this last word, either it's made up or it's some sort of part of the transition from power. the emperor kind of says some word. This is what you say when you die. Yeah, yeah. They think Marcus's was go to the rising sun for I am setting, meaning I'm not the emperor anymore.

57:30Go to the rising sun. Yes. But Antoninus' last words was equanimitas. Which means what? Equanimity. Or stillness, or poise, or peace. And so yeah, there's some kind of like with your last breath, kind of a how do you sum it all up to it. There is that notion with me that I hope, by the way, I have to say it's incredibly intimidating. And I, the conversation about comparison, it is incredibly intimidating to try to quote or even remember in front of you. So I'm, I'm acknowledging that. Yeah. Well, we'll play video games. I'll school you. Yeah. The, there is that romantic notion within me and maybe that's something that I need to surrender where it's when I've, when I come to that point, um, by the way, the first copy that I have of, uh, meditations is, yeah, it's in my safe.

58:25Um, I love first editions. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a book collector. It's my, it's been my souvenir. Wherever I go in the world, I go and buy a book and I've got some really cool ones that I'm proud of. Um, one is, um, a first edition of F. Scott watch Fitzgerald's play, The Vegetable. And in the card, it says that it was received so poorly by not only the audience and the critics, but including the director himself who left before the end of the first production. And I'm like, I have to buy that because to know that you can go write the great American novel and then write a piece of shit. There's both of those, the capacity isn't within both of us for goodness and just utter shit.

59:07But that first copy is, the cover is worn, the pages are, it's been used and it's all marked up. And there's something that I hope that when Traveler, whenever, whether he's 40 or 14 or whatever, decides that's not his copy. And it sits on our safe and I've done the dedication to him, which is a message just between he and I. but it's also like, I want you to know, just like I have these tattoos, this was my first underlying. Yeah, sure. So if I were to go back through and read it now, there's all sorts of stuff that would stand up to me, but this is the thing that hit you. And I did it in one color.

59:46It's like, I want yours to be a different color. That's beautiful. What's going to hit you when you read this? Well, I have a leather edition that I'll give you that might stand up a little bit better. Yeah, I do. Because, yeah, I have the paperback of the Gregory Hayes translation, which is the one that I love. That's the more modern translation, is that right? Yeah, it's for the modern library, but I think it's not King's James-y. It's very sort of poetic. And there's some people, they dispute certain things, they don't like it. But I think it's whatever. It's like you got into whatever music you got into, right?

1:00:21So I love that one. But mine was really starting to be worse for the wear, and so I decided I would start fresh. And so this leather one is great. I'll give you that. But you can think about this like where's Marcus's copy of Epictetus, right? Does he have the exact same discussion with Commodus? And then Commodus probably doesn't listen at all. But maybe he gets it to one of the other sons that don't make it. But yeah, the idea of like this thing changed me. And every time I come back to it, I'm different because I was changed by reading it the first time. And then I'm also different because of the things I went through.

1:01:00and you kind of never come back to the same, you never come back to the same book. You know what I mean? I agree. Because you're not the same. The book is not the same. The world is not the same. And there's this kind of really cool process of returning to the same ideas over and over and over again because they're not really the same. I think there's this misnomer. I've had this conversation with my brother-in-law. He's a blue-collar scholar. He's an incredibly intelligent person and where he's decided to devote his study, practice, whatever, is within more of the fundamental beliefs of the Bible.

1:01:37Yeah. And I'm ravenously devouring content from all sides of different things because I do love discourse. I love debate. But I think there's this misnomer that anything that ends in an ism is somehow a religion. And the thing that I found for me that was revealed to me through this is that this is as much of a religion as a diet. It is a practice. It's a protocol. It's a way of thinking. It's a way of operating. But it is not a religion that is venerating. I have a tendency to venerate these people like Epitidis and Seneca. And my rock stars would be going all the way back to Zeno. And it's like, how cool is that?

1:02:20And there's these stories that I've helped propagate and learn and have loved discovering about. And maybe I do fall into the same pattern I did when I was reading about the disciples and everybody else who was in the Bible. The difference though is that this doesn't replace anything of that. It builds upon or it goes alongside. I was going, my first reading, I started reading meditations and then I would go over to Alan Watts. And so I was like doing this East and West thing and seeing the crossover between there. It's a similar vibe. There is. It's a completely different approach to the same thing.

1:02:58And I can see how the thing that I love that Alan Watts did was that he would talk about is like, first thing to understand the history of this. And so the very first part of the way of Zen is just kind of in the same way of like the book one of meditations is like, I'm going to go through and acknowledge all these people. but if you want to understand why the importance of this is critical to the, and foundational to understanding the rest of these chapters, know who these people were in my life, why he thinks his stepfather, why he thinks all of the people, some of the people that even tried to hurt him, what he learned from that.

1:03:28Sure. That's, that's an incredible forward. I have a tendency to want to skip past that, but I, but sometimes I wonder, cause we don't actually know that he wrote it that way. So it was compiled that way. I mean, maybe he wrote it that way, Or maybe that one was the way it was and then everything else is compiled differently. But it's also, it's interesting. Like, what if that was just, he just woke up one day and he's like, oh, what did I learn from Sextus? Or what did I learn from Antoninus? Do you know what I mean? Or maybe it was, I don't know. It's also, it's fascinating to think we don't really know when he wrote it, how he wrote it, why he wrote it, how he ordered it, what it looked like.

1:04:07You know, we don't. That wasn't until like the 19th century or something like that. Yeah, I mean, we have copies that go way back, but it's like we don't have the copy, right? And he certainly didn't publish it. He'd probably be mortified. Wasn't it, it's to himself, right? It was supposed to be, it was never supposed to be, this is where it gets, there's something that I've been, I don't want to say dreading, because that sounds way too dramatic even for an actor, But I have been avoiding journaling. Interesting. And the reason why is because I understand the power of journaling now. even writing down my thoughts, there is ownership in them.

1:04:55And so there is this incontrovertible reflection of my thoughts that if I keep them just up in my head, not even myself has to recognize them. And there is this, again, this weird comparison with Marcus never wanted people to read this. Well, what if you wrote 500 more entries? And we only saw the ones that we saw? Yeah, yeah. Maybe I got rid of all the bad. But even still, that's not the point. And it's something that obviously you talk about exhaustively, about the practice of doing this. And I was like, yeah, I should do that journaling. And there's a lot of people that are like, I'm going to do my daily devotional.

1:05:38And even daily data is very much of like, here's a bite-sized thing. Read this, take it in. But I love vinyl because there's a relationship that the listener has with the material that it's finite. You know, after 22 minutes, you're going to have to get up. And if you want to continue the experience, you have to flip that record over, put the needle down and begin side B. There was a whole, I never listened to side B of Joshua Tree for like years because I just loved where the streets have no name with or without you, all of that. That's all that I wanted to listen to. So before it would flip over, I would rewind or I would just drive the needle over to the very outside edge and then I was driving and I had a tape and like an old tape players for you young kids who don't know you didn't have to turn the tape over into this auto flip thing and so all of a sudden I didn't press stop rewind or whatever fast enough and I started hearing oh wait there's other good songs Red Hill Mining Town and that became one of my favorite U2 songs and when they came back through LA, they did this world tour where I'd seen them on every tour but Joshua Tree.

1:06:53And so they did this 40th anniversary of Joshua Tree and I came back and they played this one song and all of a sudden I start hearing those guitar tones of those delay tones of The Edge playing Red Hill Mining Town. And I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I get to hear this song. They get done and I shit you not, Bono goes, he looks at The Edge and he's kind of nods, he goes, we've never played that song live before. That was the first time. And a buddy of mine was at the show the night before, and I was like, did they play Red Hill Mining Town? He was like, no. They played this song. It was like, they just played Red Hill Mining Town, and they never did that.

1:07:27So I got that moment. And so I think about all the other things where, because I won't allow myself to have a relationship with that, what am I missing out on? What's the Red Hill Mining Town moment with journaling that I have that maybe I do want to preserve that, to be able to look at my tattoos and go, man, I don't like necessarily this, but now I can appreciate it because that has grown into this. I don't like the colors of this. I would never do that again. But how grateful I am that I have that written down as a marker to remind myself of the person that I was, if for no other reason than to measure the growth of where I'm currently at.

1:08:07This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This time of year is wonderful. It's quiet. It's peaceful. It's beautiful. It's also stressful and bleak and dark. And then there's the whole family stuff. You got to make sure you're taking care of yourself and you got to make sure you're taking care of your mental health. This time of year can be not just stressful, it can also be lonely. And therapy can help you make space and time to focus on getting well and feeling good. Consider trying BetterHelp Online Therapy in December as a way to close the year with clarity rather than chaos. With over 30 ,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally.

1:08:51And it works. It's got an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of yourself. And our listeners get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash dailystoicpod. That's betterhelp.com slash dailystoicpod. Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck.

1:09:30What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck.

1:10:12Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours.

1:10:49What I've noticed is that like as you turn down the outside world, so you're not doing as much stuff, you're not as busy, you don't have as much going on. it sort of reveals to you, like, like my anxiety became more apparent to me. It became much more obvious that I have anxiety because it wasn't drowned out in other things. Do you know what I mean? And so I'm just curious, like, have you, have you started to get in touch with energy in your own life? I mean, I was, I was kind of fucked before the pandemic started. Like, I feel like my anxiety was like at an all time high before COVID happened.

1:11:27I was like, and I was kind of working through it. Like I was like filming a movie. My album had just come out. I was doing promo, but I was like, at the same time, it was just like, I think that's why I really took in the last year, like my own healing and meditation and like all of these and exercise and nutrition, all these things super seriously, because I was, I was doing these things. I was like doing promo and filming, but I was just suffering so much because of my, my state of mind. And I think I had, I had suffered from anxiety, like from years before, like I think like it, but it really hit its climax because I don't think I paid enough attention to it.

1:12:09And I was just working through it, working through it, working through it. And I think when over the last seven months that I was able to stop in the beginning, it was my anxiety specifically because I had time to be aware of my thoughts and what I was thinking and my thought processes, as opposed to, I got to go perform, fuck everything I'm feeling. Cause I got to do a good job, which is kind of what I did before. I was just kind of like override all of my, uh, you know, just, just my, my internal struggles, because I was like, I got to go on stage in 10 minutes. I can't be thinking about this, you know?

1:12:47And it just really gave me time to be able to be in the awareness of what thoughts were causing me suffering and anxiety and feel it and go through it because honestly, because I had the time and I hadn't really had the time to really look at what was going on inside myself for like seven years. You know, I was just constantly, I felt like my life was revolving around how to do a good job in my next performance, how to do a good job in my next writing session, whatever. And it's like, it feels like that's like the short-term solution, but it's not the long-term solution because you're actually sacrificing your authenticity and like your truth to just like do a good job as opposed to like be who you are, how you are?

1:13:38Well, what I found too, is that because you're good at what you do. So in your case, it's singing for me, it's writing is that the writing or the work is always as difficult as it is and unpredictable as it is. You have way more control over that than other things. So you can kind of channel all those energy, all that energy towards whatever you're supposed to be doing, like putting on a show. Or for me, it's like, I know I can go sit at my computer and stuff that's valuable will come out of it. But like dealing with my feelings or dealing with, you know, the more complicated stuff is much less predictable.

1:14:15And so you kind of end up sort of focusing on work at the expense of everything else. Totally. And it's scary. It can feel scary to be with, with, with your thoughts and feelings because it is like, that's also why, I mean, I, I feel like honestly, stoicism and meditation have helped me the most in the past year. Like both of those things, like the kind of, I feel like stoicism is kind of like the cognitive reframing of stuff, which is so important because when I, the tools that I get from meditation, not even meditation, really mindfulness is the awareness of what my thought processes are. And I'm like, no wonder I have fucking anxiety because look how I'm thinking about this situation.

1:15:00And then stoicism gives me the tools to be like, well, there's no use in thinking and obsessing about that because I can't control what's going to happen in the future. I can't control when I, the performance is tomorrow. There's no amount of thinking today that's gonna, to, if anything, it's just not, it's not useful, you know, but like, I found that the most important thing and the thing that really has given me more peace, most importantly, because I'm, I think as I'm getting older, I'm like, I feel like peace is even better than like moments of joy sometimes. Like, it's just like so much better.

1:15:35What's giving me more and more peace and, and more like authenticity when I do my work and when I write and when I do go to, to work on my, my craft is like that mental training. I think it's so huge. And I'm like, honestly pissed that I didn't get taught those tools in school because I'm like, what the fuck? Like, I feel like I, I had to search and search and search and, and go through so much suffering. Like, I don't know what's been your like experience with, with anxiety, but like, I, it was fucked. Like it's, it's, it sucks. like feeling anxious, like it sucks. And I feel like I was like feeling anxious more than not like eight, eight months ago, you know?

1:16:19And it's like, it's so invaluable to have tools. Like, you know, you're, you're not your thoughts. You're the observer of your thoughts or, oh, how can I reframe this situation? So I don't stress about it or whatever, breathing, like all of these things, like I feel like have are changing my experience of life. And it's like, that's your mind is your life. Do you feel like you can sort of gut it out? Like you can perform well, anxious, you know, you can write anxious, but then it's sort of realizing like, oh, actually when you're doing it from a place of stillness or peace or, you know, when you're not being driven by your thoughts, it's just that like a whole other level.

1:16:59Definitely. I mean, I think like there's been so many times where I remember like specifically a couple of times, which is, it was last year, really, there was, it was really a span of like seven months where I feel like I was really struggling with anxiety. And like, I've talked about this openly before, like six months, it was just like at a peak. And I had two performances that I specifically remember AMAs and SNL. And like, I finished SNL and my team was like, my manager was like, that's the best performance you've ever, you've ever done. Cause it does feel like in performance, I can channel, we were talking about energy.

1:17:35It's like anxious energy or suffering or pain is a lot of energy. And so it felt like I could really channel it and, and almost like put all of that energy into every word or every movement. And it almost like, it's like when Beyonce has said before, nerves are actually a good thing because it's energy. And it suddenly, if you were hitting a move like this, that energy makes you hit it like this, because there's so much kind of coming out. But I do think that it's not a good trade-off because especially for example, in something like writing, when it is coming from a place of stillness and peace, like I've seen in the past few months, even like writing for my next project now, it's like, it's so much more authentic.

1:18:25It's so much more truthful. And I'm so much more proud of it because it's not coming from a place of that day, trying to get a certain outcome or trying to impress the other person that's in the room or really thinking about anything in the future. Like what's come from me kind of training myself to be present and just be truthful. and it coming from a place of stillness, I think is so much better, so much more rewarding. And honestly, fuck the result of the performance. It's like, you actually end up, your life changes. Like you're like, you're able to make connections with people because your mind isn't, you're not being like, your life isn't being drowned out by the noise of your mind.

1:19:16Like there's just, it's so worth it to, I feel like invest in that mental training. Cause I think a lot of times people are like, look at it as almost like, I don't have time to do that. Cause I have to go do my work and I, and I have to do all of these things, but it's like investing in yourself and in kind of like training your mind to work for you, as opposed to be this thing that actually stops you from, from being your best self and like blocking you. It's like, it's so, so worth it. And it makes everything else better, you know? I know exactly what you mean. It's weird to me talking to you because like, I think you're the first guest that I've had that I'm older than.

1:19:58I'm so used to being the young person because that's sort of like you, my career started very early. So all the authors that I've known or, you know, managers and agents, everyone's older. But I remember when I was, I had this sort of epiphany when I was about your age, it was realizing like, okay, so it's working for me, like the anxiety, the intensity, the energy, I'm getting good results out of it, but it's not sustainable. Like I don't want to do, I don't want to be in that sort of adrenalized state for the next like 30 years. Like you're not going to survive that way. And so it's sort of realizing like, you're not having any fun doing it.

1:20:36And if it's not coming from a place of stillness and contentment, like you're going to burn out or die if you keep going this way. A hundred percent. Well, I think what happened to me right before the pandemic was I did burn out. Like that's what it felt like for me. Like I felt burnt out. I felt honestly, like I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore, but it, it wasn't doing this. It was the way that I was doing it. You know, it was like, I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. It's so much anxiety, so much stress. I feel unhappy. I feel like my, my mental health, therefore my physical health is suffering.

1:21:14Like I wasn't sleeping well, like all of these, you know, I wasn't sleeping well. I felt like my nervous system was out of whack because I, I feel like it was just a habit for me to be in this kind of fight or flight state. And what were you just saying before that? Well, just like how, how you can sustain this. Cause I think what's interesting is like most, most singers in your position, it seems like they, they have a meltdown in their mid thirties, right? Like it doesn't seem to last. A hundred percent. Well, I think that I would have, I would have at some point it would have been unsustainable.

1:21:49And I would have been like, I actually have to stop. I don't know when I'm going to come back and do this, but at this point, my health is suffering and I, and I have to stop. And I was kind of forced to stop by, uh, by everything, by everything that happened. And I, it was like, it was really necessary time. Like it was necessary for me to kind of go, go through really just like, I wrote this article about like for mental health awareness month about OCD and about anxiety. And it's like with anything, it's like with your physical health, if you break a leg, like you got to heal the leg and nobody's like judging you for it.

1:22:31You just like take some time and you, you know, you get a cast and you can't walk for five days because it's, you got to recover. And I think like with mental health, it's like, it's different. It's, you know, nothing's going to happen if you just do nothing, but it is worth taking time to be, to treat it. You know, even if it's like 10 minutes a day of like doing exercise or doing something that you know, that is good for your mental health or, you know, like really there's, there's so many different things. But, um, I, in the past eight months, I feel like I've like, literally my life has changed.

1:23:07Like, I'm like so thankful for it because I think that I would have spent a lot of years being unhappy. And at the same time, this weird thing of just like, not like just keeping going because you think that's what you're supposed to do. And yeah, I'm just like, I'm so thankful for this time because I, I feel like I'm like, more and more just the boss of my own mind and, and the boss of my own life, as opposed to feeling kind of like victimized by anxiety and, and, and, and mental health struggles. Like, I feel like that was like constantly something that I had to overcome to do things. And now I kind of like did it the other way where I'm like, I'm going to get to the root of this fucker so that I can, you know, so I can just like be free of it.

1:23:58And it's totally possible. That's something that Stokes talk about, which is like, what good is success if the result is that you don't feel like you're in charge of your own mind or your own life? Like how is that success? Exactly. And that's like not what we as a society are taught. And actually so much of, I feel like healing is being like, what of this is like, what I actually want and what of this is just like what everybody else is doing and I'm doing it because everybody else is doing it like that, you know, and stillness is the key. Like that really resonated with me. Like what's your definite and ego is the enemy too.

1:24:37And it's like all of these questions about like, what is success to you? Like is success being famous and having these awards? And I, I, I feel like it's especially a necessary teaching nowadays. Cause I have like, you know, my little cousin who's like eight years old and I'm like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And she's like, I want to be TikTok famous. And I'm like, it's like these values of like, no, what's important is, you know, how content you are with your life. Like the level of, of gratitude that you experienced the most, most importantly for me right now, like the connections that you have with your, your family and your friendships and your community and the, your purpose.

1:25:16Like you're, I genuinely do feel like my purpose is in, in art, you know, I don't think I actually, even though I, it's always been my passion, my favorite thing to do. Like I feel like in the past eight months, I, I really was like, oh no, this is like what I, what, what I want to do. You know, like this is like what I feel like my, my purpose is. And it's like not doing it for any out, any outcome of like being famous or success or what people think of you, which it can subconsciously, like, I know, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but like, even when you don't say that to yourself, like, I've never been like, I want to be the most famous.

1:25:56I want to be number one. I've never said that, but I remember like reading ego is the enemy and being like, but then at the same time I go to do a writing session and I care so much about what these people in the room think of, think of me. Like, I'm like so insecure and, and afraid. And like, that's ego too, because I'm still not doing it for the right reasons. Like the, the, the right reason is to tell my truth. That's it. Period. There's a great Marcus Reelius quote. He says, um, we care about other, we care about ourselves more than other people. He says, but we care about other people's opinion more than our own.

1:26:33Right. I love that quote. It's so true. Like you pour yourself into this thing, doing it the way that only you want to do it, you know, and then, and then all of a sudden it comes out. And then what you're thinking is like, did other people say it's good or not? And sometimes you need a project. I did a book a few years ago, this book called Conspiracy, which I think is my best book, but it's sold the least well out of all of them. It didn't like fail. It just, it just didn't do maybe what it could have done. And what was really freeing about that experience was it totally decoupled like critical success and sales for me from like what I know is good.

1:27:10And that's like, it was such a huge breakthrough. It was such a huge breakthrough for me when I saw like a couple months ago, I was, I was like, you know, I read ego. I read obstacles the way, like, I think like two years ago. And I, that was actually my, my, for my second album, I read, um, a friend of mine gave me, uh, that book. And so I read it and it told, I remember like reading it. And then for the next like two months while I was reading it, like my writing sessions were like amazing because everything, even, even my own insecurity and my own like fear, I was kind of using it to fuel, you know, I was doing that, that, uh, stoic teaching that I love so much, the Amor Fati, the taking everything and, and even the bad stuff and loving that it happened, not just accepting it, but being like, oh, I'm going to use this now.

1:28:04And that's the first time I read that book. Then like two years later, um, I read stillness is the key. And that was actually when I was, when I was, that was like a year ago, actually, that's when I was going through the height of my, uh, my, my mental health crisis. And, um, that really impacted me. And then during quarantine, I read Ego is the Enemy and I started really getting into stoicism and I got like the Daily Stoic Journal and I was reading the Daily Stoic videos. And one video that really resonated with me was the one where you're talking about how stoics define success and, and the internal scoreboard and how it's like there's success.

1:28:48That's like, okay, how many views did this get? How many likes did this get? How successful is this song or this album going to be? And that's all the things that you can't control. So if you measure success like that or what other people in the room think of me, then you're going to be unhappy your whole life. But if you change your definition of success, which I've really been practicing when I've been writing for this album, if I change my definition of success to how honest was I today? How vulnerable was I today? how, you know, did I, did I show up completely as myself? Was I kind to people, you know, was, did I see people?

1:29:27Did I make this a fun experience for everybody in the room? Like if I just keep it in, in terms of, if I just focus on what I can control in this moment, then at the end of every day, I was like, it was, it was a successful day. Even if I did feel anxious or nervous, I was like, my metrics, my metric of success was, Hey guys, I feel a little nervous, you know, and I was truthful. And therefore I met with my like standard of success. And it's like, that's so much more important. Like, it's so much more important to be the person that you want to be and lead with, with that than like how other people perceive you or what people perceive you.

1:30:08Like, that's like what I, what I love about stoicism and like what I feel like is going to be my philosophy of life forever is like, which it wasn't before. Like, I feel like I was leading with what I was doing instead of who I was being, you know, it's like, you know, I was, I just like, now I'm, I'm so conscious of like me being brave and courageous and kind and, you know, and truthful. And, you know, me, me, my character comes before any of the things that I do.

1:30:49Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

1:31:23We'll see you next time.

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