What Ryan Holiday Would Ask Marcus Aurelius

0:00Ryan Holiday: Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

0:14Ryan Holiday: One of the questions I get asked the most is, if I could ask Marcus Aurelius any question, what would I ask him? Usually, I somewhat cheekily say, I'd ask him, man, what the hell happened was Commodus. And it is fascinating, right? Like, how does someone who's so decent and diligent and responsible and dutiful, someone who is so philosophical, someone so committed to these ideas of Stoicism, how do they leave their empire to a son who is the opposite of everything they stand for? Like, was he blind to Commodus' faults? Was he negligent as a parent? I don't know, right? It's so easy, of course, to turn children into moral referendums on their parents.

1:02Ryan Holiday: And anyone who has kids knows that that's not exactly how it works. But I think we all know something clearly went sideways. This was not how Marcus wanted it to go. And so I think it's worth exploring and it's worth contemplating. And it's what I talk about with today's guest, Professor William O. Stevens, who is Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Crichton University and the author of a fantastic biography on Marcus Rillus called Marcus Rillus, Philosopher King. He's written extensively on Marcus, on Epictetus, on the practical demands of Stoic ethics. And so in today's episode, we are riffing on what went wrong with Commodus and also the history behind it, because history and politics and precedent and tradition all play a part in how this decision came about.

1:58Ryan Holiday: And that's not to excuse Commodus, who is probably worse than people think. Like you watch the movie Gladiator and you go, oh, Joaquin Phoenix is an incredible actor, but this is fictional. When you read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Gibbon presents Commodus as even worse. And at the time, the Romans thought he was one of the worst emperors to ever live, right? How does this happen? One of the best emperors leads to the worst. And that's what we're going to explore in today's episode. You can watch the full interview of this on the Daily Stoic Podcast YouTube channel, which I will link to this in today's show notes.

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5:05Ryan Holiday: Whatnot users spend something like an hour a day on the app. They're not just browsing, they're engaged, they're buying, they're coming back. You go live, you show up products in real time, and you turn what you love into real income. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store, download, and start selling right away. Sometimes people ask me, you know, if you could sit down with Marcus Aurelius and ask him a question, what would you ask him? And there's so many philosophical questions I would want to ask. But I think practically, like the big one for historians is like, what happened with Commodus?

5:38Ryan Holiday: How does such a great man have such a, I mean, flawed doesn't even begin to capture it, you know, with regards to his son. So I imagine you spent a lot of time thinking about that. What do you think he would say or what do you think the answer is? It was the first time in generations that a Roman emperor had a biological son who could succeed him. Yeah. Hadrian did not have any children. And Trajan, you have to go back, you know, 100 years, 150 years, approximately, I think, right? Several generations. So this is how it used to be done, number one. So that's the traditional way to pass on power was from the emperor father to the emperor to be son, number one.

6:30Number two, we really have a lot of confidence that Marcus was really rattled. He felt so betrayed by Avidius Cassius. If Marcus did not have a surviving son who was old enough, who was close enough to adulthood to ascend the throne and rule when he died, then it seems like avidius cassius would have been a very natural choice for marcus to handpick because he was a proven general he was very successful he's respected by his men there's no substitute for that there's no more successful more highly respected military mind who could command men right who could rule over men than avidius cassius and the whole thing with the letters with Faustina convincing him that, oh, Marcus is frail and he's about to die and Commodus isn't old enough to take over.

7:33And if Marcus dies, then we're going to get killed. I, Faustina, and my son, my young son, Commodus, are going to get murdered. We have to have somebody who's strong to step in now and take Marcus's place because he's not going to make it. He's going to die. He's frail or whatever. He's going to get the plague. We mostly just don't know, Right. So there are rumors that, you know, that might have been, you know, letters that in the letters that Faustina sent to Avidius Cassius. But we do know that he he led a revolt or maybe he was egged on by his men. You're great. You're the great commander. You should be emperor.

8:13And there was a precedent for that in Roman history. Very, very successful generals who had the loyalty of their troops could decide, you know what? I don't really care for this emperor. I want the power. I've got the military might. I'm going to seize the throne myself by the sword. And Cassius decided that's what he's going to do. And so he started marching his troops west. And Marcus was like, holy cow, I count on this guy more than anybody else. This is a disaster. And he never had to face him in battle. Because before that, Marcus marshaled enough troops and it didn't work out for Videas Cassius.

8:51He was killed by one of his own men. And so having been betrayed by Videas Cassius, you know, what other choice does he have? Right. If he can't trust that guy, right, to enforce his will, and he's not an option for a hand-picked successor, and he's got this son, that's the natural choice. That's the traditional choice. Marcus couldn't see the future. Sure, he might have had concerns about Commodus' character. Was he studious and serious and taking his responsibilities seriously? Yeah, maybe not. You know, but he's young and he, you know, Marcus had his friends to advise Commodus and try to help him with his upbringing after Marcus was gone.

9:35You know, he's a little bit too into, you know, the gladiatorial displays like Lucius Varys was. He was not, you know, he was an okay, not great co-emperor. So maybe he thought, well, maybe Commodus will be as good as my adoptive brother Lucius was, and he'll get enough. He will have learned enough from me that he'll take it seriously. But he didn't have the character for it, not by a long shot.

10:00Ryan Holiday: Don't you think the tragedy of Marcus here is not just that he had a son who was flawed, but he had several sons and they kept dying. I imagine that if you were just trying to explain Commodus and you're like, well, he was the sole surviving boy and watched four or five of his brothers die. Or, you know, that plus his dad was gone a lot for work. You'd be like, oh, that screws somebody up. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, just amazing that Faustina had so many children. Yes. approximately 13 children, and four of whom live to be adults? I mean, it's a black parade of tragedy. I can't even imagine.

10:52Can you imagine nine of your 13 children dying? I mean, the grief, just the devastation. And so, yes, I mean, so I think that's insightful. I mean, he must have cherished Commodus. He loved all of his kids. yeah how could he not you know and stoics are so misportrayed right it was like oh well stoics are going to be indifferent yeah they're not going to be affectionate loving with their kids come on epictetus says explicitly once you have a child it's no longer up to you not to love it that's that's a direct quote from uh from the uh discourses right and marcus you know he got that yes of course he loved his kids all of them and his heart was broken every time one of his babies died.

11:39And so he's going to cherish Commodus. Sure. Right.

11:43Ryan Holiday: Like you could imagine any parent who's busy and has a hard job is going to, you know, maybe make some allowances for their kid, going to do so out of guilt, going to do so out of, you know, understanding that they didn't ask to be born into this life. And then you're right to layer on top of that, that he held so many of his siblings in his arms as they died. It would skew your compass. I mean, every parent is blind to a certain degree to the faults of their children, but I imagine it would be really, really, really hard to see the pros and cons of your child as a future emperor of the world when you have seen so much loss and devastation.

12:35Yeah, and how much discipline can you actually impose on a son who is, you know, destined to become the next emperor? Yes. There's a life of privilege and then there's the life of the most privilege. Right. As you've described before, right? So, you know, unless it's the case that Comet has had that kind of introspective, you know, driven inclination to gain self-knowledge and be mindful of his weaknesses and then dedicate himself to overcome his vices and his weaknesses of character, as we suppose Marcus did pretty well, right? Yeah. Unless he was a special child like that, then the temptations surrounding him are going to deform him as they did with Nero and Caligula.

13:34I don't know.

13:35Ryan Holiday: Sometimes I think about when you're sort of judging historical characters, right? So Marcus obviously makes a choice here to pass the throne on to his son. And we know ultimately the choice ends up badly. He didn't know that it would end badly, but it does end badly. There's no dancing around that. Commodus is horrible. Notice that he does the same thing that he did with Lucius. They were co-emperors. Right. So that was an innovation that Marcus did. Yes. The empire had never had co-emperors before. And Marcus insisted to the Senate, you want me to be emperor? I will agree to do it only if you make my adoptive brother co-emperor.

14:14So he's right from the get-go, sharing the power with someone else. Right? Yes. And so he does the same with Commodus. He makes Commodus co-emperor, the younger co-emperor, just as Lucius was also younger than Marcus. Right.

14:29Ryan Holiday: And we suspect I think there's two things there. One, this is codifying effectively what Antoninus had done with him. Right. Sharing power. And then secondarily, I suspect or I think we can suspect that Marcus probably wanted some version of that with his sons, plural, you know, had had this worked out with it. So, yeah, I do think that's a good point. But as far as, say, not passing it to Commodus, right, that people go, well, why did he do it or he shouldn't have done it? I think it's important that we ask ourselves, are you expecting something from someone that has ever been done before? Like, is there any kind of precedent, right?

15:09Ryan Holiday: Is there any kind of historical precedent for a king or a queen who had a problematic child to say, no, I'm going to deprive you of your so-called birthright, right? I'm not sure there's any precedent or example for that. Has anyone else in the thousands of years of history before or the thousands of years of history since been able to look at the character of their young child and say, you're not cut out for this. we're going to create an entirely new form of government in response to that, or we're going to totally rewrite the laws or the traditions of our society in response to that. I do think that's a lot to ask of a dying old man.

15:57Right. Absolutely. You know, Marcus, of course, is going to be aware that that's Commodus' expectation. Sure. He is the rightful heir to the throne. And so if Marcus picked someone else, then, I mean, this is Game of Thrones stuff. We know what happens here, right? That choice is the choice of civil war.

16:19Ryan Holiday: He is choosing to throw Rome into a civil war. It's bloody civil war. Absolutely. It's going to be a total power grab. How is that going to be a better legacy for Marcus that he picks one of his other trusted generals? Oh, well, Avidius Cassius didn't work out. Well, this guy might do OK. Sorry, Commodus. You know, we're bumping you aside. He's promised not to murder you in your sleep. You know, like this is why exactly this is why, you know, as much as I enjoy the movie Gladiator. Yeah. You know, that story, that plot line is is utterly ludicrous. There was no Russell Crowe for Marcus to pick.

17:02There was no Maximus Decimus Meridius that he wanted to be the protector of Rome and give the power back to the Senate. No, no, no, no, no. He had a perfectly legitimate son, and he didn't want civil war to erupt by picking someone else, even if he did have those doubts. Yes. Yeah, no, that wouldn't have played. That wouldn't have played at all. Marcus was smarter than that. Sure. And he couldn't have known the future. You can't see into the future. All of those considerations, right? The tradition, he's your blood son. You know, as you were saying before, I mean, as I recall, Commodus was a twin.

17:43He had a twin brother who died when he was like six, six or eight, I think, maybe around six. And Marcus was devastated. He thought, as you were saying, they would be co-emperors, both sons, two sons, and he died. Right. So it's like Commodus is the last son standing, right?

18:02Ryan Holiday: Totally. Totally. And look, he's trapped in a stupid form of government, okay? Like, it's a dumb form of government. The idea of passing it to your child, it almost never works out well. It's a bad form of government. And so, of course, it ended badly. That's right. And it more often, the history of the Principate more often was ugly. That's why was an exception when you had the rare examples of Trajan and Hadrian and Antoninus Pius and Marcus. And I mean, look, this is true even in the modern age. I mean, your Queen Elizabeths are rarer than your Prince Andrews, right? It's not good for people and it doesn't tend to engender competent, selfless, you know, ethical people.

18:48Ryan Holiday: And again, this is what makes Marcus Aurelius such an extraordinary story in history that he was basically groomed for this from a young age, and he didn't end up that way. And this is why in the book, I push back against a certain trend. Donald Robertson is a friend of mine, and he's an outstanding scholar, and I love the guy. And he likes to heroize Marcus, right? His earlier book on Marcus. He really heroizes the guy. And it's natural to do that. If you want to look for, you know, if you're looking for heroes, Marcus is a natural choice if you're moved by stoicism. I think it's better to see Marcus as deeply human, not as superhuman.

19:34Marcus had flaws. Marcus congratulates himself for not, you know, raping, taking advantage of sexually his attractive slaves. Ouch. You know, he has wars. He had a temper, right? Christians were persecuted in his reign. They were. My judgment is that, given the evidence that I've assessed, Christians were not really widely known. So they were a fringe sect that not a lot of people knew about. And the provincial governors were the ones who, under pressure from the populace, when they decided they wanted to scapegoat somebody, the Christians were natural targets to scapegoat. And the provincial governors were the ones who were principally responsible.

20:21But yeah, but Marcus was following the letter from Trajan, the previous letter from Trajan that outlawed that made illegal being a Christian. So, yeah, there are, you know, there are certainly warts. There are certainly flaws in the man. But that just makes him more fascinating to me. Yes. Because he had virtues and he had weaknesses. He was a real human being. He was not a sage. He was not perfectly wise, but he recognized that as a prescriptive ideal, trying to be sage-like, trying to become wiser, trying to enact justice in your own life and live in a kingly way, as you were saying, quoted from Musonius, right?

21:10That's his challenge. That's his goal in life. And that allows for many good things to happen in his empire as he's fighting wars and battling the plague.

21:24Ryan Holiday: And ultimately, that's where I come down on Seneca as well. In a way, his complicated, contradictory life presents endless opportunities for moral examination. And you don't get anything if you just condemn him outright. But if you look at the complexity, it can make you better.