Why Stoicism is Having a Modern Resurgence | Mick Mulroy (PT 2)

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2:04Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

2:54Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. This is part two of my convo with Mick Moroy. Big news in my life, other than this cold, which you're hearing, and screwing up my nasal passages and thus making this not the most listenable intro. The episode is much better, I promise. I started the fourth book in the Stoic Virtue series. So the Wisdom book is now underway. The Justice book will be out this summer. And then I can't even wrap my head around dates and when the next one will be out, but it is in the works. Production has begun. So I am now got that part of my brain operating.

3:35I think I'm both happier when I'm writing and more miserable when I'm writing. But what I love to do is have conversations with people who are interested in stoicism or better yet, applying in the real world. And that's where today's guest comes in. If you listen to part one, Bic Moroy was a deputy assistant for the Secretary of Defense in the Middle East. He served under Secretary James Mattis and Secretary Mark Esper. And he's a former CIA officer, former United States Marine. Fascinating guy. He spent a lot of time at the Pentagon. and then since then he's become a national security analyst for ABC News, a special advisor to the United Nations, and a cause near and dear to his heart is ending child soldiering, which we talk about towards the end of the episode.

4:16Just a fascinating conversation. I was really glad to have it. I'm so glad he came out to have it, and I think you're really going to like listening to it. You can follow him on Twitter, at Mick Mulroy. I'll link to all his different organizations in today's show notes, and I hope you enjoy this episode because I really enjoyed having it. And I'm going to get back to doing my writing.

4:47You know, it's funny. I interviewed Captain Dave Carey. He was sitting right where you are. He was in the Hanoi Hilton with Stockdale. And what he was saying, he told me some incredible things, but he was saying what was interesting. He's like, I never met Stockdale once. He was separated from the other guys. And it was this kind of osmosis. His strength spread through the prison by osmosis. And then his ideas were being passed around. And it's not like they were all getting together and he gave these rousing lectures. It was the power of his example. They heard what he did when he tried to kill himself to avoid being used as propaganda.

5:24Right. And just his sort of example of leadership and self-containment. but he was saying that he'd gotten in there and he's been in there a while. He learns the language and he hears the tapping on the wall. And they say, CAG, which is what they called Stockdale, CAG wants you to remember what Epictetus said. And he goes, what? He's like, I'm a 22 year old fighter pilot. I don't know who the fuck Epictetus is. But just the idea that Stockdale just thinks everyone should know Epictetus and he just says it. And then, of course, when that eventually is sort of translated, it's like, look, there's some things that are in your control, some things that are not.

6:05Focus on what's in your control. But I just love the idea of the power of this example from someone thousands of years ago being in someone and then passed through like literally the walls of a prison. And then it's stealing those people for this incredible trial that they're being subjected to. It's just, I mean, he said to himself, I am leaving the world of technology and entering the world. Entering the world of Epictetus. Exactly. And I think one thing that I've, because I talk to people who haven't heard about it before and I see stuff that resonates with them. I think one of the things when you say, yeah, everybody knows Marcus Aurelius, right?

6:47He's in movies and stuff. but another towering figure of who he thought was a slave. Yes. Right? And then people go, oh, wait a minute. So this isn't some elitist thing. No, it's not. It's not elitist at all. It's not really anybody has access to it. And people who might be in the worst situations like prisoners, sometimes prisoners that got there for good reason. Yeah. Right? Sure. In fact, one of the persons right in a chapter in the book that I referenced, Andy Smalls is in the UK, a prison official who has found stoicism and uses it to help other prisoners. They're not just prisoners of war who don't deserve to be there.

7:29You can commit crimes and be guilty of those crimes and then still wrestle with the, still find value in the idea of the dichotomy of control. I don't control that I'm here, but I control who I am while I'm here. And when I get out. Yes, and who I'm going to be after. Right, after I pay my dues. But I think that's another thing about Stoicism is it isn't just like the Roman emperors. Yes. Right? It is literally, you know, a teacher, a boxer, a long-distance runner, a slave. Yeah, it is remarkable, right? It's not just like, oh, it encompasses all these figures. I think it's worth pointing out Marcus Aurelius, the most powerful man in the world, holds Epictetus up above all the other philosophers.

8:14So the emperor of Rome is being directly influenced by a powerful person being so influenced and changed by a utterly powerless person. That's right. It's not just, oh, anyone can be a Christian or something. It's fundamentally rooted in the sort of humility of the lowly, and that's exalting the person on high. That's right. So your value isn't tied to what you have. It's what you are. Yes. It's how, like Seneca says, if you want to be beautiful, make beautiful choices. Yeah. No, Apictetus says that. Yeah, Apictetus says that. Do the right thing. So beauty is in what you do. Right. It's in how you live.

8:56So Marcus Aurelius is not great because he was the emperor. Right. Marcus Aurelius made the position of emperor great. That's right. I think that's the core of it. Yeah. And everybody should be able to see that. And it's within your power to do it. It's in your power. If it's not true, don't say it. If it's not right, don't do it. And we talked about it already, but one thing I think really helps me, and I do podcasts and write on stoicism, but it really holds me accountable. You know, if I, I don't like hypocrites. Like I really, if, if you're going to say you're something, even if you're saying you're a bad dude, I don't like bad dudes, but like, at least he's owning it.

9:37You know, he isn't like pretending to be something else. So I've literally gone, I've done a podcast. I've gone, you know, like running with my dog and live in Montana. And I don't think I had a certain amount of time before I get back. And I see this guy walking down the street. He's a vet. He's a little disabled. He's going to VFW. Now I could turn around and go get him. And then I'm not going to have enough time to do my thing. But if I wouldn't have done that podcast, I'll be honest, I probably would have gone and done a run. You would have just ignored someone who could use your help. Right.

10:06And he does it almost every day, right? So, and, but I, you know, I told myself, not toot my own horn here or nothing, but I was like, you know what? I can't just go talk all that talk and then not do the right thing. Because there's a right and wrong thing right now, right? And, of course, I turned back around. He's like, I don't want your help. What's wrong with me? But the point, the lesson was for me, like if you're going to talk about that stuff and you're going to say you're that, you have to hold yourself accountable. You will be a better person because of that, I think. I think it's actually a little bit deeper than what you're saying.

10:41So it's not just, hey, if you're going to talk about stoicism, you got to live up to it. Actually, the purpose of stoicism is in that. You're supposed to talk about the ideas, so then you're more likely to do them. So meditations is Marcus Aurelius reminding himself, it's like he's repeating the rosary or something, right? He's going over the ideas. He's saying like, you know, when people upset you, you have to remind yourself that there's an opportunity. He's saying that because later in the day, he's going to meet someone who forces him to act on that very idea. And Epictetus says this too. He says, take these ideas, talk about them, write about them, speak about them.

11:27He's saying you're supposed to be actively engaging with the ideas. That is the philosophical practice to bring out the real life day-to-day practice. So it's this kind of, this is not a work of recording the Stoic ideas. meditations is Marcus doing the stoic practice in the way that meditation is the Buddhist practice. So then when you're in the world, you're more mindful and centered and aware, right? And so he's saying, he's saying, like, look, this is the back. This is what I have on my head. He says, concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being.

12:08Remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it without hesitation and speak the truth as you see it, but with kindness, with humility, without hypocrisy. Yeah, there you go. That's the same thing I'm talking about. It's like when we were kids and you would have to go write on the blackboard like 20 times. It's about the repetitious practice and it kind of infuses into the body having to do that. That's what stoicism is. Yeah. And one of his most famous quotes or paraphrases, is, you know, don't just talk about being a good man, but, you know, be one, right? And I always read that. It's like, well, I'm a stoic and I talk about being a good man all the time, right?

12:49That's what we're doing right now. But I think it's more about the importance. Yeah. The importance is actually what you do, not what you say. And so that's kind of my point. And I think what I'm saying is that, okay, there's the ideas and then there's doing. And then in between is the stoic practice of journaling and talking about it and sharing it and discussing it and listening to people talk about it. That's the bridge between theory and action is the spiritual exercise of reading this book every night, of writing your own version, you know, of watching YouTube videos about it, whatever it is.

13:28It's a thing you engage. It's not a thing you learn one time and then you just do forever. It's this re-engagement with the ideas over and over and over again. And so in minor situations, you see someone you can help on the street or, you know, they're asking you to do a thing that you know is wrong, but to not do it will cost you your career. If you have meditated on that thing thousands and thousands of times, hopefully you can draw on that in that moment. That's the, to me, that's the full cycle of stoicism right there. That's right. And that's, you know, one of the things that kind of came back to me in my life you know obviously the military but then i was in the cia and to me that's like you know my dad told me the story of uh you know the ring right guy geese and so from from plato's republic if i'm recalling it correctly um a farmer or shepherd digs up a giant and finds the ring and realizes that when he puts it on i just assume it's where they got the lower the ring thing probably um he turns invisible and then the the story the that my dad told me was like what do you how are you going to act when you really don't have a consequence right so now it's obviously consequences to serving in the cia and we have oversight so i'm not but i always kind of drawn back to that because it's you get a certain amount of authority and you're allowed to do things that other organizations can't so if you don't go in there with a solid ethical, moral principle, that can be a problem.

15:06Yes. Right? So I've always looked at it that way too, in the sense that a philosophical underpinning you carry with you. Yes. You know what I mean? Even when there isn't necessarily consequences for actions, you have to carry yourself in a certain manner. There's a famous Latin expression, which I don't speak Latin, so I don't know exactly, but it's from Juvenal, the poet. and it says, who watches the watchmen? Who guards the guardians? Yes. And the answer ultimately, I mean, you design a system with checks and balances, oversight, as you say, but ultimately the final check is philosophy, your personal ethics and guidelines and what you believe.

15:46And you could see meditations as that. Here's the guy with no guardians. No guardians. Do whatever he wants. Right. The final check is the ideas of Epictetus and the ideas of Zeno. Yep. And the example of Cato. and the example of Seneca, right? The counter example, what not to do. Right. And the practice of him reminding himself, you know, of what he believes and what's important. And I mean, the full 10 % of meditations is debts and lessons, right? What Marcus learned from the people in his life. And he doesn't give them that, right? The first chapter. Yeah, the first chapter is a list of all these things he learned from these people.

16:30But again, if you think about it, it was never published. So it wasn't like the acknowledgments on a book. I'm writing to publicly thank people, but also I want them to see it, right? Marcus isn't doing that. So why is he doing it? He's writing what he learned from them to remind himself what he learned, to codify it, to hold. So he's thinking now that Antoninus is dead, he's thinking what would Antoninus do in this situation? What did Antoninus teach me? And that's why the absolute power doesn't corrupt in Marx's case because what watches the watchmen, what watches – what Seneca says, no one is fit to rule who is not first master of themselves or you want to command a great empire, seize command of yourself.

17:15Yeah. Philosophy is the thing that is in command even though Marcus – that's the true emperor. The man is just filling the position. Yep. Well put. I like the guardian who's watching the Watchmen. That's exactly what I was getting at. Yeah, absolutely. So what is Mattis like? Secretary Mattis is what I think people think he is. I mean, it's interesting. That's a very nice, like if you think about the ultimate compliment you could pay someone, they're exactly as their reputation suggests. Right. And, you know, one of my business partners was his exo. So one of his deputies, and I was his deputy assistant in the Pentagon.

17:56and he in some ways he's like a badass professor you know what I mean he has a very academic way about him and he's obviously very cerebral but he's also a marine general and he's spent his whole year his whole career like myself fighting to be frank right so it does tend to give you a hard edge a little bit but he is not one thing I will definitely shoot down this idea of this mad dog maddest thing I don't think he likes it. I can't speak for him, but he's not that. He's not a guy that runs around yelling and screaming at all. He's very cerebral. He's in command of himself. He's very much in command of himself.

18:36But what I would say epitomized him as a Marine for me and my son, who was a Marine and now starts Ranger School as an Army officer this week. he epitomizes like a servant leader, right? So, you know, the stories about him where somebody is driving onto a base and he is Christmas Eve and he's replaced the Lance Corporal at the gate with himself. Because he doesn't, I think the story is that man had a family and Max didn't. And so he said, I should be the one working on Christmas Eve. That's right. And he didn't do it for some future, like people would talk about him or anything like that. I imagine he didn't even expect that.

19:20But when I was at the Pentagon with him, you know, I'd go to get in line to drop my dry cleaning off and who was in front of me? Secretary Mattis. Right. You just don't see that kind of stuff anymore where a guy is going to go down and stand in line who's the Secretary of Defense. He's the most significant military in the world potentially ever. Yeah. And he's going to sit in line and, you know, wait his turn to get, of course, and that's what people remember. I don't think he did it because people will remember him. Right. But that's when you go, wow, this guy, I mean, he is a very significant, very influential, very powerful, if you will, person, but he doesn't take himself too serious.

19:55Yeah, there's a series of photos that I thought were revealing where he was trying to get somewhere and there's like terrible traffic in D.C. And he just gets out of the car and walks. And, of course, the protective detail is losing their minds. But he's like, why would I be late for something that is a four-minute walk from here? I have legs. You know, I'll just take care of this. Because what happens with power and responsibility is that it can make you sort of lose your perspective as a regular person. Right. And become entitled to things being a certain way. That's right. And from my point of view, you never got that way.

20:37And it's a model for that. And I think part of it could be stoicism. Again, I don't speak for it. But it's funny, it's like during the fall of Kabul and, you know, a lot of vets were trying to help Afghans out, myself included, sitting across from my business partner, retired SEAL. And I get a call and it says, Mick, Jim. And at first I thought it was my Uncle Jim. Yeah. Then I realized, oh, shit, that's general manager. So I stood up, you know, there's a Marine in me. I just stood up. The force of general is calling me, yeah. Right. But he's like – and I talked to him about, you know, what do we need to do and help our partners out that didn't get out and stuff like that.

21:15And I sat back down and I was like, you're not going to guess who that was? He goes, yeah, I guess it's Jim Mattis because he shot up like a jack-in-the-box. But so he does have that – you know, people who work for him, I think, universally have that respect for him because of who he is and how he acts. And I do think he's a good model for stoics, modern stoics going forward. He could be that type of person. And it is, you know, go back to the early part of our conversation. I think McBasters was the national security advisor. He was the secretary of defense. And I think in some ways, you know, it was a stoic resistance.

21:54I don't know if they view it that way. But, you know, looking back on it, and maybe I was a small part of it, I guess. there's a there's another funny photo of mattis he was doing something in china when he was secretary of defense and you know there's always the exchange of gifts and they're giving him a copy of a translation of meditations called the emperor's handbook um you know because china emperor right right and he's like thanks like he doesn't have like 500 copies of this book you know i thought it's so funny apparently in his house houses even when he was a senior officer all he had his books yeah right he had like a bed and a bookshelf but yeah so he i think you know i think it is a good compliment what people think is what you know what i saw yes right and he's still um like to my knowledge and i don't want to give but he doesn't have like a staff yeah people i have obviously his info and people know i have his info but i sometimes warn him like if you call he's gonna answer yeah like so don't expect to you know don't waste his time because you're actually going to be taking it from him.

22:57Right. He's going to answer the phone. Yeah. Right. And you're going to say, oh, well, I figured I was talking to your chief staff or so, you know, like, and it's, no, it's him, you know. That's interesting. So there's a humility there around that's never left. I don't, I, I, I don't think he ever left. No, I think he views himself, you know, as that, as that leader that wants to be the servant leader. You know, the kind of the Spartan view is the way that Marine Corps always looks at it. Like if you, you should be almost imperceptibly distinguishable from your soldier. Yeah. Right. You, you're sleeping outside and Socrates exemplified this too, but the Spartan leadership model is very similar to the way U.S.

23:41military views how officers should be. Yeah. There, I heard a story about him once, maybe it's even in his book, but, you know, he sort of met some lower level leader who's sort of getting a bit high on their own supply or, you know, was sort of removed. You know, famously, like in World War II, MacArthur had fancy tablecloths. And he said something to the young man. He said, you know, the privilege of command is command. Yes. You don't get a bigger tent. That's right. You know, and we can think of Marcus Aurelius. He's literally writing in, He's not writing in a portable palace. Right. You know?

24:18He's not getting dispatches from the front about what's happening. Right. He's there doing it. That's right. And, yeah, it's like a mark of great leaders. Cato famously slept on the ground with his men. That's absolutely right. They're - A model of the soldier. Yeah. He is a - I always thought Cato was like the quintessential model of the Stoic soldier. Right? To me. And I think you're right. You see that in Marcus Aurelius. You see it in some of the leaders today, including General Mattis, Secretary Mattis.

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26:13When you go to your point about reputation, you know, I think there's an exchange with Cato where someone goes, you know, why don't they have a statue of you? You know, do you know this story? And Cato, why isn't there a statue of you in Rome? And he says, I'd rather they ask why there isn't a statue of me, then ask why there is. And his point is your reputation is the monument, right? That's the statement of who you are. Whether you're honored or appreciated for it, you know, is secondary. So, you know, Marx realists tried to be Marx realists because that was the right thing to do. And the fact that somehow meditation survives as a quirk of history, and now we see him as this great man, that wasn't why.

26:58You know, Truman was a widely hated president. In retrospect, we understand he's great. Yes. That's a vindication, sure, but I don't think – he wasn't doing it because he knew he would be vindicated by history. There's – and Truman himself is a big fan of meditations. Some of the annotations in his copies of Marx really survive. And his point was you basically – you do the right thing because it's the right thing. and maybe people understand later. Maybe they won't, but you do it because doing it is the reward, but also because not doing it is the punishment. That's right. Yeah, that's a good point.

27:36I think I'm gonna use that Kato story. I didn't hear that before. I thought I heard a lot of, that's one thing about going to these stoic conferences. I don't know what it's like because I want a Trekkie, but when I got there the first time, it was like, holy crap, everybody's finishing what I'm gonna say. Like, it was odd to have that level of commonality, you know? Yeah, and that's, I've kind of had that reaction, though. I think the community is a little insular, and they are under the impression that everyone, like, it's very, it's actually very small. It feels big, but it's actually very small.

28:10Do you know what I mean? Like, I've said, it's like, people go, oh, you know, they'll say that I'm popularizing philosophy. And I go, do you know how many copies The Secret sold? The Secret, the most bullshit book of all time. sold 20 million copies, right? That's more than all of my books combined many times over. A book of complete nonsense, popularizing complete bullshit, right? So like it can feel like stoicism is popular and everyone's talking about it. But I mean, even amongst the military where it's probably vastly overrepresented, I bet if you polled a thousand young Marines, like 10 of them would know what the fuck you're talking about.

28:50Do you know what I mean? It has reached a fraction of the people that it could reach and ultimately that I think it needs to reach because it really doesn't work and it has a big impact. But you get this sense if it's what you are thinking about and talking about all the time, you just assume everyone's operating this way. And again, there's a reason that the serenity prayer hits people, even though it's so basic and so obvious. It's not how people are raised. It's not how humans instinctively are. And it's certainly not culturally what we teach and practice as a society. So I just think there's so much that people don't know.

29:32What's wrong with popularizing philosophy? Of course. You know what I mean? You could accuse me of many worse things than popularizing the thing that not only made an enormous difference in my life, but that I'm most excited and interested in. Are you supposed to keep it to yourself? Is that the idea? But also it's like, hey, that's what I set out to do. Yeah. So you just told me I was – you're not insulting me. You know what I mean? I wasn't trying to be an obscure indie rock band who accidentally found a large audience. The whole point was I said, I really love this stuff. I wish more people knew about it.

30:13And then I sought to popularize it. So thanks. Good on you. Yeah. Thanks. you know like thanks for like i guess i did it yeah right right and and isn't that the whole point isn't that we're talking about if you want to really change the way society appears to be headed and i know every generation thinks this but so i'll caveat it with that but i think a lot even the current generation would say yeah we we need we need something more um at least when i talk to them and i i think this could be part of it and if it gets popular and some guy or gal says well i'm gonna read this book because everybody's reading it great great i mean because there's a lot of stuff that's getting popular that is not great yeah of course right and so i'm all for you so on behalf of a guy who's been a stoic for a long time thanks ryan appreciate it's i mean it's it seems wonderful to talk to more people about it do you know what i mean like it's like the idea that you you're not alone with this thing it's exciting right you know what i mean when i started talking about it people like what is that and the fact that more people know what these names are It's a great thing.

31:15Yeah. But from my vantage point, because I started so young, it does seem like it's – I sit down at a table in Doha and they start going – instead of talking about Gaza and all the stuff that's going on there, they're like, hey, you're the dude that talks about stoicism in the military. That's pretty cool. And these were all like 40-year-old, 40, 50-year-old folks, but a lot of them had just heard it from the first time. Yeah. And I could tell it had a big effect on them. Yeah. Like positive effect. And, you know, as you well know, there's certain groups of people who already mentioned the military, but it also resonates really big that I've seen with business people.

31:57Yeah. Especially people who have been successful. Yeah. And I've asked them because, you know, I've never – I'm kind of in business now, but I've always been in government and military and stuff. And to a man or woman that I've talked to about, it's like, well, I've been really successful at whatever I do, but I'm looking for something bigger. Yeah. I think that's why it resonates so much with successful business persons. It's like, okay, well, I've sold a lot of widgets. And even if it's a really important widget, right? I'm not diminishing. They want something bigger. They want something broader that they can really focus their mind on.

32:34And when you see the, you know, obviously there's nothing wrong with wealth for Stoics, but it's not that important. And they realize, wow, everything I thought was important for most of my life really isn't. I mean, they're happy they did good, but this gives them something else, I think. Well, I think ultimately, if you sort of boil down what Marx really says Stoicism is about, he says it's about people. It's about other people. It's about the common good. And so you can get successful to a certain extent in business just thinking about profit, thinking about making widgets or whatever. But then you realize as you go, it's ultimately about people.

33:10And if you treat people well, if you think about your impact on people, if you focus on those things, success, money, profit, it usually comes as also a byproduct of that. So it's a kind of a different way of framing. I interviewed John Mackey, the founder of Whole Foods, who's interested in the Stokes too. And we talked about that. Obviously, one version of business is like, how do you get things as cheaply as possible and make them and sell them for as much money as possible? And that's basically Capitalism 101. but his sort of idea of a more conscious form of capitalism is the idea of like well how do we make sure that everyone involved from like the pig to the person raising the pig to the trucker transporting the pig you know how do we make it as good for them as it's capable of being you know ultimately the pig dies at the end so it's not that great for them but his point is how do you think about how do you think about everyone involved right like one you're in business and you're it's like if i don't fuck the vendors the vendors are gonna fuck me you know but another version is like well what do they need to be successful what do i need to be successful what do we need to charge the customer to be successful and so it's it's it's a but that creates great businesses that people actually like yeah and and businesses that you aren't ashamed of being a part of right and so thinking about it that way i think is ultimately a yeah a more sustainable and then more ethical and more stoic way of being in business.

34:46Absolutely. So talk to me about the case for a philosopher king. So I've been kind of touching on it. I think that when we teach kids, and I told you this, my dad did, is telling stories, right? So there's a lot of people we could point out in history that we'd all want our kids to emulate. Yes. Right? Marcus Aurelius is a good example. We could go down the list, I think, from Nelson Mandela to... Harriet Tubman. Harriet Tubman. These are people I wrote into. But you could have your own people that you really... Yeah, who are your heroes? Who are your heroes? And why are they your heroes? And teach kids, because it is a story, the story of somebody's life, how you should act through the story, right?

35:39If they're a stoic, great. I tend to favor them, but they don't have to be, right? But in public education, we could teach ethics, not just as some kind of theoretical concept. Here the list. But like, hey, let's talk about this person's life and when they had courage that most people wouldn't, right? When they decided to do something that made a difference, Maybe it made a historical difference. Maybe it just made a difference to another person's life, right? And teach kids that on the idea of what we want to eventually be a leader on any of the fields, not just the president, right, of our country.

36:19But that's the philosophy king concept to me. Like obviously Plato was – and I think Aurelius probably came closest to it. But the concept that that isn't just about the king. it's about any person in society who would have influence over other people which is just about every person in society yeah whether you're a parent teacher you know mailman um doctor that they should have an underpinning that we all agree like this is a person who best epitomized what it's like to be a good man or woman you've read plutarch i'm sure yeah i think when people think biography today, right? They think these big, thick, you know, 700, 800 page biographies that tell you every place the person, you know, when they were born, what their parents were like, their genealogy.

37:12And then so often it's like a catalog of, of how the person actually sucked, you know, like deep down, here's all the horrible things they did. Right. But what, what I get when I read Plutarch and why I think Plutarch, you know, has survived for so long. And by the way, Plutarch's nephew is Sextus the philosopher, who Marcus thinks. Oh yeah, that's right. He does. But when you think of Plutarch as the sort of perennial biography for great men and women, biographer of great men and women of history, but also read by the great men and women of history, it's because he was teaching biography as a form of moral instruction, you know?

37:53this is what they, this is what, this is, you know, Caesar crossing the Rubicon or, you know, this is, you know, Cato challenging Caesar, right? He's telling the great moments, the little things in the lives that teach us about how to be or not be like that person. And his scholarship is not that great. A lot of it's probably wrong or he invented the stories, but he was trying to capture the essence of that person to provide moral instruction and also aspirational ideas for generations of people to aspire to, you know? And I think that's what you're saying. It is what I'm saying. And I think it's something that we could go back to, in addition to teaching ethics, to do it in a way that's more receptive to young people listening to it and philosophy in general.

38:46Like you should know, I think you should know the roots, the history i mean there is some value to knowing dates and who's who and all that but to tell it not just through ancient people um who might not be as relevant to people today but also the characteristics you know the courage wisdom justice and self-discipline which some people have a problem with i mean you know um and how that could be valuable today yeah through the the lives of people they might be familiar with, more familiar with. When if you read old school books, you know, like the ones that would have the story of George Washington and the cherry tree.

39:25It's not true. He didn't do it. Right. But I think they all, I think everyone was aware. I don't think this was bad scholarship, like, or a mistaken understanding. I think the purpose was, they understood that their teaching history was more than just facts and figures. it was about in that case teaching a lesson about honesty it's also I think you know there's a parenting lesson in there too but the idea is you were supposed to learn those big ideas so you could model your character does Cincinnatus exist or not or is it a Roman myth it doesn't matter because what matters is that at the penultimate moment of Washington's life he resigns his commission and decides not to be a king.

40:15And he did that because I think he sensed that it was the right thing to do. But I also think it's because he'd been steeped in a tradition that taught him how that was a form of greatness greater than being the ruler. To turn the power down was to conquer, to be at trends and to an even higher level. And so those stories and those myths, that's the central and most powerful way to teach kids and yourself, I think, these lessons. Washington is not a young man when he resigns his commission and then resigns the presidency. Like he's still steeped in that tradition all those years later. And if it wasn't for that act, we couldn't have no democracy that would exist that was continuous for, right, until it is now.

41:08It was one choice by one man, which is not what a lot of men would have done if they were offered. Yeah, well, King George says if he does that, he'll be the greatest man in the world. Yeah. Yeah. A king said that. Right. Realizing that he would never be that man. Yeah. Right? Yeah, the other part of that story, you know, when he put his glasses on, I've heard that. Yeah, the Newberg conspiracy. Well, when Washington put his glasses on to read his speech, apparently people didn't wear glasses and it was like a sign of weakness. But he did it, you know. Well, so for people to know the story, you want to talk about January 6th as a pivotal moment in American history?

41:46The Newburgh conspiracy, basically Congress has always been, you know, does the right thing at the very last moment, right? And at the very last, basically they screw over all the officers and the soldiers of the American Revolution. some dispute over pensions and pay. And there is this essentially a plot or a coup attempt where the army is going to overthrow the civilian government. And for people, I'm telling the story, I'm sure you know it, but Washington hears of it and he hears all the men are gathered and he walks up and he gives them a speech. And I believe he quotes a line from the Cato play.

42:27He talks about observing events in the calm light of mild philosophy. And he tells a story about, he's pleading with them not to basically undo everything they did, not to undermine all the sacrifices and the cause that just created this new nation out of everything. And as he's reading his notes, he reaches into his pocket and he puts on glasses, which, as you said, is very uncommon. But he was such a powerful, almost mythological figure to these men that when he puts on glasses, they see in a moment that he's an old man. And he says, I apologize for putting these glasses on. I, too, have gotten old in service of my country.

43:09And it shames these people. They realize nobody sacrificed. I'm getting goosebumps even saying it. Nobody has sacrificed more than this guy. I mean, his farm is burned. He loses so much and he's been without his family. And he's saying, I've sacrificed more than anyone and I'm still loyal to this cause. And it basically dissipates the energy of a thing that would have at that moment, could have started a sort of a French revolution cycle of government, then a new government, then a new government. We trace where we are today in America to this singular speech with the symbolic flourish of the glasses.

43:52That's exactly the way I remember it. Yeah, I get the goosebumps too, right? That is where we got our freedom, I think. Yeah, and he's demonstrating at these pivotal moments, you know, the superiority of civilian over military command, you know, that the office is what continues, is not the man who holds the office when he decides not to seek re-election after a second term. Just over and over again, Washington is not talking about, he's being about. He's embodying the philosophy and he's setting in motion a set of norms that more or less every president since has modeled. You could argue until maybe a few years ago, but not even argue.

44:41Basically sets Even the peaceful transition of power to a rival is an unbroken 200-plus year tradition until January 6th, 2020. That's right. And I think there is a connection here, right? If we could have a philosophical underpinning, we wouldn't, I don't think, have all the issues we have today, right? Even if you just go to the basic logic of things. you know one of the things that i always found to be a mark of somebody who's what i would call is you know intelligent yeah is the ability to change your mind yes right and that's not existing today at least in generally speaking and yeah in meditations mark schuil says um if someone points out that i am in error they have done me a favor yes you know he's like because now I'm no longer an heir.

45:30Right. And that's not the way we discuss things anymore. Flip-floppers. Yeah, you're a flip-flopper. Even if you discovered new information that you know makes you wrong. Right? People nowadays just double down on whatever they thought in the first place, and they only look for things that validate it. And they ignore things that don't. And they make somebody who brings up things that don't an other. Yes. Right? So we've gone from a point where we believe in the ideals of George Washington and freedom and democracy to a point where we're now like sports teams. You know what I mean? And I get it.

46:07You're a sports team. You're always going to go for your team, and you're always going to say you got the bad call. But we shouldn't be that way. It's not a sports team. It's not a game. It's not a fucking game. It's not a game. And we're Americans. Yes. Right? And it were not, I would like to see people, not that any of us can listen to me, but just drop the parties, just drop them. Well, you know, Washington said something about that. He did, he did. He warned us about that and we're seeing it now. He watched it ruin his own cabinet. You know, Jefferson basically is the first party figure in America and it is basically a, you know, sort of a backstabbing dick for eight years of Washington's presidency.

46:43And he saw what it was gonna do. Right, and he was right. It was 100 % right. Now it seems like we have two countries in the country, right? And there's not even another space for most people that aren't. When it's also realizing America is not a country. America is a country formed around an idea. Idea, that's right. A set of ideals. And you know what I mean? It's not this geographic quirk of history. It's not a certain race. Not a religion. It's not a race. It's a set of ideas. Right. And it should be you either, you buy into those ideas or maybe we need to bring back the Roman and Greek concept of exile.

47:28Because if you transgress, like there's within reason, you know, we should do this, we should do that, whatever. But if you don't respect the ideas or the norms. Right. Like, get the fuck out of here. Because if you don't, that's treason for one. But like this is the system you play within this system. System's pretty good. It's not perfect. It can be changed and tweaked. But these are the classical ideas that this was founded on, the checks and balance that were proven over time. And at a certain level, those things are non-negotiable. It doesn't matter how much that person agrees with you on other things, how much that person likes to own your opponents or how funny that person is or how good or bad that person is for your tax bill.

48:13You know, there has to be a certain set of non-negotiable things. The peaceful transition of power being one, you know, the supremacy of the civilian government over the military, the idea that no one is above the law. Right. Right down the list. There's some non-negotiables. The democratic process, right? Yes. That is America. You just said it. It's an ideology. Yeah. If you're not consistent with the ideology, you're not consistent with the whole point of the country. Yeah, yeah. Right. Then we could just be any other country that, you know, the strongest person is in charge. Right. Yeah. And we're not.

48:50And we represent a deviation from that. And I think we should be that, you know, shining city on a hill that represents the free people of the world. Right. I know it's like, oh, yeah, whatever. People don't believe that. They should. That's the whole. That's what I think the whole point of the United States. Of the people, by the people, for the people. Right. And to be, you know, that power around the world. We're good.

49:21Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

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52:16So to go to this idea of the philosopher king is I think the emphasis can accidentally or wrongly be on the king part of things. Yeah, the king is a. Yeah. Because Mussonius Rufus, who's Epictetus's philosophy teacher, he says, he actually does. He teaches a bunch of like a Syrian king. He's a philosopher who advises these kings. And one of his big questions, he said, you know, should kings study philosophy? And basically he comes up with, he says, I think this is to me what the definition of a philosopher king is. He says, yes, of course, every king should study philosopher. He says, but also every philosopher should be a kingly person.

52:54And I think it's the idea, like when you think of philosopher king, you think like an all-powerful ruler guided by philosophy. Which, of course, if you're an all-powerful ruler, it's important that you're guided by philosophy. Right, if you're going to have them, you might. But I think what he's saying is that every person, high or low in the social hierarchy, has to be guided by a philosophy, has to be great in whatever that capacity is for them. Do you know what I mean? And so in that way, Epictetus is a king, even though he's a slave. And Marcus Aurelius is a philosopher, even though he's a king.

53:31And when we look at the greats of history, the people you're talking about, whether it's Harriet Tubman or Cato or Stockdale, Martin Luther King, these are Gandhi. These are kingly people who are also in positions of leadership in some form or another. Yeah. And it might be that we look for things that we're looking for. But it's amazing how many people you could just read out that have some connection to Stoicism. Yeah. Whether it's Nelson Mandela reading meditations in Robin Island, right? Yeah. And maybe that's because we look for it because that's what we're interested. But there is an unusual connection to all these people who went on to do considerable things that we all, I think, universally would say were positive things in their life.

54:21whether they were the slave or the emperor, whether they were the civil rights leader or the president, you know, Teddy Roosevelt going down the River of Doubt. You can see his copy of Epictetus. Yeah. I interviewed Kermit Roosevelt Jr. in your chair. His great, great grandson. Was he in the agency too? He was, I think, the founder of the, one of the founders of the agency. Yeah, he did a lot on the influence side, if I recall. Yeah, not maybe our proudest moments. I think he was through the Shah of Iran. Yes, you're right. That's right. Well, that's why I was talking about the ring of Geiges, right?

55:00If you're given a lot of authority, you got to make sure you still have a moral compass to guide you, right? Especially if nobody's going to know. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, no, but there is this remarkable tradition of great men and women being introduced to and then being influenced by Stoicism. And then what I try to do in my books is I'm not saying that, you know, Rockefeller is a Stoic. I'm saying that in this specific part of his personality, he was illustrating some Stoic idea. As far as we know, Ulysses S. Grant never read a single book of philosophy in his life, but he is a great American Stoic.

55:36Yeah. You know what I mean? He exemplifies what we're trying to promote. Yeah. And that's what the Plutarch was doing, but that's also what the Stoics were doing, is they would tell these stories and use examples from people's lives to demonstrate these principles, these ideas. Sometimes the transgression of the principle and sometimes the embodiment of the principle. But it's a long tradition of sort of studying these lives. I mean, Cato doesn't write anything. Cato is a Stoic, just like Socrates, because of the life. That's right. the legacy is is there and the life captured yeah acting on verba is the latin expression deeds not words yeah the other thing that's always um i found interesting is that there's so much of what they thought about back then that matter today you know i was rereading uh letters to a stoic um and his talk about friendship um and i really don't remember ever focusing on that before but as you get older you know some things stand out to you right um and it's it kind of made me rethink like am i doing everything i should be to to be a friend i mean i have obviously like most people you know friends yeah you know unfortunately a lot of mine passed away to be honest um but the ones that aren't have i done everything i need to be you a good friend?

57:10Do I reach out? Because this is an issue with a lot of people today, you know, where social isolationism has become common. And I noticed other friends of mine that do a really good job at it. Like they will bother a friend to come out. Like, hey, what are you doing? I'm sitting, am I doing it? Yeah, you got to come out. I don't want to come out. Yeah, I'm going to come get you. Right? And I'm like, wow, you're kind of being aggressive about being a friend here. And then I was like, well, maybe I'm not aggressive enough. Yeah, sure. You're paying it forward. Yeah. Like I'm pretty content just hanging out with my dog and, you know, reading a book.

57:45That's my personality, right? But is that really – but anyway, so I bring it up because like I haven't thought about that. I wouldn't have thought about that if I wasn't rereading, you know, certain passages going, wow, this guy really considered it. Like you got to be a friend to yourself first and like you got to like yourself. Are you doing everything you need to do? But that's a really important part of the Stoic practice, the reading, sorry, the rereading, the coming back to it. The Stoics love Heraclitus who said, you know, we never step in the same river twice. Seneca has not written any new letters since you read him the first time and they haven't discovered any new letters.

58:23But what changed is what you needed, where you are in your life. And, you know, when I read Meditations at 19, there were certain things that I needed that jumped out at me. And there were things that went way over my head that I never even conceived of being relevant to me. I mean, I also, it never, for instance, I just missed really the fact that a bunch of meditations is Mark's really talking about plagues because he was in the middle of the Antonine plague. And then COVID happens and you go, oh, he's being literal and figurative, you know? And so you see different things that your environment allows you to see or where you are in your life.

59:02There's a Zen saying about how, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. The things that you need in the text come to you based on whatever season of life you're in or what situation you're in. And so it's important that you understand that it's not a one-time read. You have to linger on the works and come back to them and revisit them. And also, sure, Seneca hasn't written any new letters. We haven't discovered any additional books to meditations. But you know what? These books have been translated in the last 10 years alone, multiple new times by new thinkers, new academics.

59:40I'm talking to a Spanish translator of Marcus Aurelius in a couple weeks. Like when you realize if you just take one passage and you look at five different translations of it, you almost get five different books because the author is bringing something new. One of my favorite translators of Epictetus is this guy, Thomas Wentworth Higginson. Do you know who he is? He was a contemporary of Emerson. He was an abolitionist who leads the first black regiment in the Union Army during the Civil War. So his understanding of Epictetus as a man who knows slavery and the abomination of slavery, but also knows war and the worst things that humans do to each other, is going to be different than Robin Waterfield, who's a great British translator of meditations in the 2000s, right?

1:00:33And so it's realizing that you get different things from different translations. And that's a way to rediscover it and reconnect with it in a way that they're not making any new original works of Stoicism, but they also are because each translation is an original new work. And the translator brings their own story to their translation, like what they got from it. Yes. The highlight. No, I agree. And I think that's one of the reasons why people keep going back to the ancient texts, right? And it does, again, connect you to your history. So it is a way to learn about who we are and why we are the way we are at a time you can make yourself, I think, a better person.

1:01:16I mean, yeah, there's translations of Marcus Aurelius from the time of Shakespeare where it sounds Shakespearean. Right. But that's not how Marcus thought a Roman writing in Greek in the year 160 AD would have actually sounded. That was the culture that it was being translated in. Sure. And so, you know, a hundred-year-old translation is going to read differently than a 20-year-old translation is going to read differently than a brand spanking new translation. um but but it's a way i also think it's kind of a way to triangulate what is what he actually meant there because different translators are going to see things differently and bring their own understanding to it and so i think it's you don't just read it once you don't just read one copy of it don't even read your same copy multiple times like you know i have my copy of meditations that i've had since i was a teenager but then i've also started new ones so i am not necessarily just guided by what i noted down or thought the original time you know and re-engaging with the material in new ways gets new ideas exactly right we miss anything anything we should talk about uh you know we have a company that focuses on uh conflicts right yeah but we also have an ngo that focuses on ending the use of kids in conflicts um i if you didn't get the book i'll get you the book So my business partner, Eric Ulrich, and I did a documentary on a child soldier who was in the LRA, forced to become a soldier, and then shot six times, hit in a chest with an RPG, killed the guy next to him.

1:02:58It just sounds like? Well, the way we looked at it is a guy who's had a lot of RPGs shot at, I think the fin, the stabilizing fin, severed his chest and almost took his arm off. right so he was uh thrown in a ditch they started burying him and then one of the ladies that was throwing dirt on him realizes uh eyes were moving so he he gets out he realizes that the only way to be of value as a child soldier when you can't use your arm is to do something else right so he knows how to navigate at night because he was taught that by his dad and then um goes on to be joseph coney's radio operator who is still currently the second most wanted man in the world So obviously as the agency guy, I was like, well, okay, that's kind of important.

1:03:42But aside from that, he ends up falling in love with another child soldier. They start a family in the bush, as they call it, and eventually escape and spend the rest of their life trying to help other child soldiers. So we did a documentary. We're not documentary, man. We were like, we did it with iPhones. But it gets pretty well known because a lot of organizations used it as a way to. Yeah. Get awareness. Yeah. And now it's being made. It's made into a book by a great author from Montana. And hopefully it will. What's it called? So the documentary is called My Star in the Sky. The book is All the Glimmering Stars.

1:04:25It's the same concept. Because once he realized that he could, it also is how he escaped. He realized, holy crap, I'm the celestial navigator. So if I run at night, they can't catch me. Right? Because they're going to look for me to try to tell them how to get in front of them. So why do I bring that up in a Stoic podcast? So I actually wrote a paper. His name's Anthony Apoka. And he hadn't ever heard of Stoicism until me, right? If you know me, you're going to hear about it, whether you like it or not, right? But I started recognizing all these things, you know, that really epitomized everything that I wanted to be as a Stoic.

1:04:57You know, not only courage, obviously, as a soldier. He risked his life multiple times for other soldiers, obviously, to get his family out. He was wise well beyond justice, helping other people. Justice. But also the ability to still have serious compassion when he had all the rights in the world to be an asshole. Sure, sure, sure. You know, I mean. Every horrible thing that could be done. Every, and seen every, the worst part of human nature. Sure. yet I kind of like you know at a time when I was you know I had gone through a lot of conflict and not personal but actual conflict I was a pretty bitter person but I kept talking to him and we really close friends to him now his his two youngest sons are my god sons but I noticed in him what I wanted to be as a Stoic and then you know of course he was listening to me politely about Stoicism but anyway So I wanted to bring that up because the book is going to help fund this NGO.

1:06:02And this is a serious issue. Child soldiers. Child soldiers has always been a problem. It seems inconceivable that that would be a thing. It is not only a thing. In 2019, me and my partner did a paper on this. It doubled in the Middle East. Doubled, right? Because as wars go on forever, largely fought through proxies, right? the guys that started it are dead. And so they're only left as children. And they're expendable. And nobody cares about them because they're kids in countries that people don't care about. And they're from people that people don't care about in the country. So we have a huge problem that's spreading around the world where these superpowers fight wars and kids get slaughtered.

1:06:47Right. We're funding, the countries are funding the wars and indifferent to the actual human suffering and reality of how those conflicts play out. Exactly. And just how they impact the lives of so many young people who then become swallowed up by the worst nature of man. Right. It's not like you spend a couple of years as a child soldier and then you go on to college. Right. That doesn't matter. You're officially, you've been sucked out of the system and it gets worse from there. It does. And the first thing they do for kids that are soldiers is get them to do something horrendous. Yeah. And then they tell them.

1:07:28Like a gang. Yeah. It's like a gang. Yeah. And then you say, like, your society is never going to accept your back. Right? Because you're a horrible person. The moral injury makes reentry into society impossible. Absolutely. And kids are essentially designed to do what adults tell them. Right. So because of the modern technology of weaponry. Yeah. It doesn't take a big guy. you can fire and be devastatingly lethal and still be a small person. They're not turning them into special forces operators. They're giving them a salt rifle and saying, point this over here. Yeah, go in that direction and kill everything you can.

1:08:04So why do I bring it up here? One, because I always try to. It's one of our passions because we've seen it so often on the battlefield. But also because Anthony did epitomize to me. And not just like, you know, you and I had a modern, you know, I'm sure pretty good upbringing. A lot of these kids don't. Right. Right. So they didn't have that shot. But he really did, to me, epitomize it, what I wanted to be. At a time when I wasn't sure, you know. Sure. You know, anger, right? One of the things that certainly Seneca talks a lot about, but certainly something that's really big. And actually one of the more challenging things to people, like he gave me my example of how not to be angry, how not to let things that happened.

1:08:55He has a reason to hold the courage, I guess. Hell yeah, he did. Yeah. But he doesn't. Yeah. You know. That's beautiful. Well, thanks for coming by. That's incredible. Thanks for having me. It's been a great discussion.

1:09:15Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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