You Should Be In The Thick of It | How Oprah Discovered Stoicism

0:00Ryan Holiday: Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

0:14Ryan Holiday: You should be in the thick of it. It was the center of the world. Rome was the Caput Mundi, the head of the world, and the Forum was the center of Rome. It is there in the forum that you found the Stoics. Cato was there giving speeches. So was Cicero. Helvidius challenged Vespasian to his face there. More than two centuries later, Marcus Aurelius stood on the Rasta and delivered a funeral oration for Antoninus Pius there. The Stoics were not at home with their books. In the early days, they had been in Athens, when Athens was the center of the world, but they came to Rome from there, literally in a famous diplomatic mission led by Diogenes.

1:01Ryan Holiday: Tell the story and lives of the Stoics. Marcus Aurelius, it was said, refused to allow Rusticus and Arian to remain as pen and ink philosophers. He got them to participate. He wanted them involved in things. It's a shame today that philosophers are so removed from society. You might see them on a university campus, but probably not on Capitol Hill. What issues of our time are they speaking to? What relevance does their work have? Are they starting businesses or leading social movements? Why not? More to the point, what are you, a philosophically inclined person? Or you wouldn't be listening to this.

1:40Ryan Holiday: What are you doing? How are you getting involved? How are you making your impact felt? How are you bringing your beliefs and your virtues into the world?

1:59Ryan Holiday: Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. So back in January, feels like an eternity ago, I got this Instagram message. And then I think a thing came into the bookstore, customer service or whatever. And honestly, I thought it was phishing. There's this kind of scam going around these days. There's actually just an article I was reading about it where people impersonate a famous person and then they invite you on a podcast or to like a FaceTime or whatever. And then they're like, oh, it's not working. And then they send you a link and you click that link and that's where they get you, right?

2:39Ryan Holiday: They get you like you're almost on, you're almost connected with them. And then they, oh, here's this troubleshooting thing. And then boom, that's where they get you. So just FYI, if you see or hear anyone talking about this, like if you suddenly get an Instagram DM from Joe Rogan or somebody, that's probably what it is. Actually, I got one from Aaron Andrews and we almost fell for it. So I got this message from someone who claimed to work for Oprah. You know, Oprah's production company is Harpo, Oprah backwards. and they asked if I could connect with them. They're like, I know it's a weekend, but can you connect with us?

3:15Ryan Holiday: I sent them a message. They got right back to me. Well, it turns out it was real, and they asked if I wanted to do Oprah's podcast. They said, there's only one downside. You're going to have to come out to Maui to do it. I said, oh, no, would I really have to go to Hawaii in the middle of the winter? But we did. I flew out to Hawaii. My grandparents used to live in Maui, so I have a lot of memories there. So I ended up taking my kids. We stayed right down the street from where my one building over from where my grandparents lived. It was this wonderful, nostalgic, beautiful thing. Got some long runs in.

3:49Ryan Holiday: I was just then starting to train for the ultra marathon I was going to do. And I took my in-laws with us, too. It was just like a lovely, lovely family trip, family time together. And I'm going to cherish that forever. But the cherry on top of it was at the end, I got to sit down and talk with Oprah. Now, you might be asking, why did Oprah have you on and how did she hear about stoicism? Well, if you've read Maria Semple's new book, Go Gentle, it's this novel inspired by stoicism. That's the answer. Maria Semple wrote this amazing novel about where the main character is a stoic philosopher. And that made its way to Oprah.

4:29Ryan Holiday: I'm stepping on the story. I asked Maria about it because I had her on the podcast. We had an amazing conversation. Let me set the table with Maria. And by the way, you should absolutely read Go Gentle. Before we get into some of the Stoic practices, because I do think it's practical, I want to talk about how you are part of a Stoicism origin story for Oprah Winfrey. How does this how does this like because it's this it's a crazy chain. Like I think about, OK, like somebody hands Mark Sturelius meditations. Right. Somebody hands Admiral Stockdale Epictetus. Somebody hands like it is this unbroken chain of thousands of years of people going, hey, like this worked for me.

5:16Ryan Holiday: I think you should try. And you are the person who gave stoicism to Oprah. How does this happen? It's so amazing. Right. Right. It's so crazy. So I was I'd written Go Gentle, you know, and and when when you write a novel. That's your stoicism inspired novel. Exactly. Exactly. And so so I wrote Go Gentle, sold it. It takes a year and a half for it to come out. And during that year and a half, your publisher desperately wants it to be an Oprah pick. Yeah. And that's like kind of the thing that everyone wants. And authors obviously want that, even though you don't even dream of it because it doesn't happen to you.

5:51what happens to other people, you know? And so, so they, um, my publisher sent it to the Oprah book club team and they all loved it and gave a copy to Oprah apparently. And, um, and she read it and loved it from what I understand. And then I get this phone call out of the blue. Um, and the first thing she says is, you know, I pick your book and I'm, you know, I'm, and I'm in that moment acting extremely un-stoic, just screaming and going, my life has changed. And this is the biggest thing that's ever happened to me, which is like literally undoing every single thing that I should have learned my life about stoicism.

6:31But so after I freaked out, she said, I knew I was going to pick this book in that first scene when Adora is teaching stoicism to the boys, to the, you know, because my character Adora Hazard.

6:46Ryan Holiday: They wanted a pair of expensive shoes or something, right? Exactly. And then she's trying to explain about externals. Yes. And what, you know, and she's obviously taught them. So it's basically she's the private moral ethical tutor to a rich family and their two little, like, rich kids. And the family has said, like, try to, like, teach, like, drill some character into these kids. And so she has her after school every day. She meets them, and then she uses the examples of stoicism and philosophy. And so they want expensive sneakers, and they don't get expensive sneakers. And then or one of them got the expensive sneakers and the other one ruined the expensive sneakers because he didn't get them.

7:24So she's saying like, OK, what's an external? And there's like things that you that you want that you don't have. And she's like, OK, close enough. They're 11. So let's just give it them. And so what she's saying is she's saying the thing about externals is even if you get them, they make you miserable. Right. That this is like the thing that she's choosing is that once you get them, then you're in a state of fear of losing them. You know, and then you get like deranged and anxious about like, how am I going to keep it? And so she's giving this lesson to these little boys. And so anyway, Oprah, love that.

7:59Ryan Holiday: What did she say to you about stoicism? Do you remember? Well, so, yeah. OK, so so so what happened is so she then said she said, I knew that I would pick this book as soon as I saw that scene with the little boys. And she said, I'd never known about stoicism. I didn't know what it was. And I read your book and I got so into it that I started reading the Stoics. And I'm really, really into it. And I can't wait to talk to you about it and talk, you know, tell the world about it, basically. And so that was just, I couldn't believe it on all these different levels. Like even just that, that I thought, wait, Oprah Winfrey now knows about Stoicism because of my novel.

8:37It's so wild. And then you can explain your origin story with your Oprah origin story.

8:43Ryan Holiday: Well, then I got it. I got an email from her producer asking me to come out to Maui to do an interview because she had read my books after she had read your books. Yeah. And I do think there is something kind of beautiful about that. Like somebody somebody told me about the Stoics. Yes. And you can't you can't pay them back. Right. But you can pay it forward. And you think about, yeah, why does, you know, 2 ,000 years ago, there's this philosophy teacher teaching this kid who he knows is going to be, not kid, he's in his early 20s, but this kid is being groomed for power. And he goes, hey, I think you need to read the works of this slave.

9:20Yes, yes.

9:21Ryan Holiday: First off, he reads it, right? How many book recommendations do you get? And you go, eh, I'm not interested. Right, right, totally. But he reads it, and then it changes the course of his life. Yes. And history. And how many people since found Epictetus or Mark Surrealis and said, hey, I think this might work for you. And that that's kind of this journey that we're all on. It's not quite evangelism because you're not actually obligated to do it. But it is, stoicism is this thing that you just didn't know existed. And when you do hear about it, you're like, this is exactly what I was looking for.

9:52Exactly. And then you get excited. And if you're an enthusiast like I am and like you are, you can't wait to, like, talk to people about it. And you're not trying to, you know, lay on any religion. But it's just it like really has helped me. It is it has saved me in so many ways. And I'm just a life of meditation, therapy, all California stuff, you know, that I did. I've tried everything. And I really feel like this is as as come close to saving me.

10:19Ryan Holiday: And it's funny, like, you know, for you, it came through a novel. I remember my book, The Obstacle is Away, made its way through professional sports. And somehow Pete Carroll, who's the coach of the Seahawks, reads it. And he's reading this thing. And then he calls the team psychologist into his office. And he's like, Michael, do you know about this thing called stoicism? And he was like, yeah, we all studied it in school. And he's like, but I didn't. He's like, I was a football player. And so it's like some people know about it. Yes. And it's this kind of open secret. And then there are these other people, usually people who are too busy doing things or out living.

10:55Ryan Holiday: They just didn't know that there was a philosophy that could help them with their life because that's not what we think of philosophy as. We think of philosophy as theoretical and abstract or, you know, that it's academic. It's not a thing that you would have a tutor come teach your kids so they'd be better human beings. But that's what they did 2 ,500 years ago. Right. And the Romans really turned it into pop psychology, you know. And that's what I love about it is it really is. And it's, you know, AA, it's CBT. It's all the let them theory. I mean, I'm sorry, but I'm just like going to say that all of that is stoicism, you know.

11:28And so so it is psychology. And that's that's how I kind of trick people into reading it. I'm like, it's really just self-help. And they're like, oh, really? Because people love self-help. They don't read philosophy, but they want to read about themselves.

11:41Ryan Holiday: It was surreal to have Oprah when we did the interview. She's like reading. She's like, oh, and this is my favorite passage. She's reading out some thing, which is me just riffing on the stoics. But it's just like, you know, when I sat down to write about an obscure school of ancient philosophy and my publisher was as uninterested in it as they could be. Of course. Wow. This is not where I expected it to go, you know, 12 years later. To be in Oprah's house in Maui. Yes. Having her read parts of your book back to you. Exactly. Exactly. So crazy, right? It's totally crazy. It's so weird. And I mean, I feel this with you.

12:16I feel it more with her, which you understand because she's whatever. But but it's like to be sitting across from the person, you're like, wait, what? Like an Oprah, I'm sure you felt that you're in the middle of an answer. You were like, wait, hang on a second. I guess Oprah Winfrey's right there. It's crazy, right?

12:32Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And that this is I mean, I guess there's probably some people who are not upset, but they're like, well, what? I'm like, I want as many people to know about this as possible. And I don't really care the entry point that you come in. Like she has such a direct line to so many people that, again, would not think, oh, I want to learn about philosophy from a bunch of old dead white dudes. And what could they possibly tell me about my modern life? And it's actually a lot. And so anyone that wants to be part of that thing, whether it's Oprah, I got to talk about it on Joe Rogan, I'm all about it.

13:06Ryan Holiday: To me, no judgment. If you have a platform, if you have an audience and you want to take this to them, how can I help? Okay. So Oprah loved Go Gentle and she made it her book club pick, right? And then I've noticed this about like successful, interesting, influential people is when they're interested in something, they go down a rabbit hole. This is my habit, too. Like I hear about something, I read about something in a book or whatever, and I go, I got to know more. Now, sometimes they have an assistant track this stuff down for them. Brian Grazer famously had like a curiosity czar, like he had a full-time assistant whose job it was was to chase this stuff down.

13:47Ryan Holiday: So anyway, somehow Oprah went from Maria to my books. And I know she went to my books because as we were talking, I could see Oprah's marked up copy of The Obstacles Away. It was just an absolutely surreal experience. First off, that she's doing it's the new 10-year anniversary edition. Like 10 years ago, if you told me, hey, Oprah's going to be reading. Not only is this book going to come out and eventually find its audience and do well, but you're going to do a 10-year anniversary edition. and then Oprah's going to read that 10-year anniversary edition, and then you're going to be talking to her about it in Hawaii.

14:21Ryan Holiday: I said, dude, what are you talking about? That is deranged. But that's exactly where it found us. And we had a lovely conversation. You can listen to the whole thing. You can watch it on YouTube. But I thought I'd bring you my favorite part. So here is me and Oprah diving in to a little stoicism.

14:42Now, when I read Obstacle is the Way, I was struck by how simple the idea is, and yet how radical it also becomes when you actually try to live it, that the very thing, y 'all, blocking your path might actually be the path. So Marcus Aurelius, emperor of Rome around the year 170, wrote, what stands in the way becomes the way. Yeah, and I had not come across that as a philosophy or... How does what's standing in the way become the way, Ryan?

15:19Ryan Holiday: I think what he's specifically talking about makes it very clear. So the obstacle he's referring to, because he's writing in meditations, which is just his private thoughts. So he's not saying it to us. He's saying it to himself. And he's talking about difficult and annoying people. He's saying difficult and annoying people can get in our way. They can cause problems for us, right? Our opponents, our competitors, anyone can cause problems for us. But they can't prevent us from moving forward because they're actually presenting us a new way to move forward, whether it's patience, whether it's forgiveness, whether it's creativity or perseverance.

15:54Ryan Holiday: So for the Stoics, when they say the obstacle is the way, look, sometimes you can transform what you're dealing with into some huge opportunity to move forward in a professional capacity. But always in a personal capacity, we're being challenged and tested. We're given an opportunity to practice some kind of excellence, some reach for us that maybe we wouldn't have done under ordinary circumstances, but this circumstance we're in gives us the chance to do that. That's what he means. what he means. Well, one of the, one of the sentences, the first sentences that stood out for me is it doesn't matter what happens to us.

16:32It can be for the best if we use it to be better for ourselves and others. I think that's true. Sounds crazy, but also really challenging to apply. And in order to make it real, you organize the book around the three principles, perception, action, and will. Yeah. Okay.

16:51Ryan Holiday: That's how the Stoics try to approach every situation they're in. First, how do we think about this? What's the story I'm telling myself about it? What's my view on it? The Stoics remind themselves that, you know, it's not things that are the problem. It's our opinion about those things, right? The story we tell ourselves about it, you know, this was unfair. This was cruel. I was humiliated. These are all subjective interpretations of an objective event. So first, how do we see this? That's really, really essential. Well, that's so interesting because since reading so many of your books and other people's books about stoicism, I now ask people, I used to say, oh, say, tell me what happened.

17:31I now I've now caught myself saying, what's the story you're telling yourself about this?

17:37Ryan Holiday: As I said, you can watch the full episode on Oprah's YouTube channel. I believe she also just did this new deal with Amazon Prime. So I think you can see it on Amazon as well. You can listen to it anywhere you get your podcasts. And go read Go Gentle. And I had Oprah sign the book that she wrote with my friend Arthur Brooks, which is also lovely. And I will link to that in today's show notes.