Reeves gives ‘deluded’ conference speech as Labour goes to war with itself

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:14Camilla: Labour is in crisis. The Prime Minister is the least popular in history. It's day one of the Daily Tea at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool.

1:23Tim: We've spoken to Keir Starmer's best friend, Nick Thomas-Simmons, and to Andy Burnham's best friend, Lisa Nandy.

1:30Camilla: And we're going to be trying to make sense of it all. Welcome to The Daily Tea from Liverpool with me, Camilla Tomini.

1:35Tim: And me, Tim Stanley.

1:47Camilla: Tim, we're on the Mersey. We're on the Mersey. Oh, I love the Mersey.

1:51Tim: First night in Liverpool and, of course, everyone was drunk already. We're staying on Hanover Street, which is nicknamed Hangover Street by the locals. First thing I heard stepping off the train was a girl in white boots and a plastic cowboy hat saying, you've just got to dump him. Let it go. It's not worth it. I'm home. Love this city so much.

2:09Camilla: This is why we're in. This is the best place to have a party conference, let's be honest. Absolutely. Best place to have a party. With no disrespect to Manchester, Birmingham, Brighton. We love Liverpool. Yeah. We've just come out of Rachel Reeves' speech at conference. I mean, it was really well received. The ladies in the lavatory afterwards, absolutely loved it. Forgive me, but I sat through it and thought, this is one of the most delusional speeches I think I've ever heard. She's banging on about fiscal responsibility, not overspending like the Conservatives. Borrowing is set to hit a£100 billion high by the end of this Parliament.

2:45Camilla: At every turn, she's contradicting herself. There was that very powerful part of the speech where she talked about being the daughter of primary school teachers Textbooks were taken away. We were moved into porter cabins. As if it was some sort of hell.

3:00Tim: She said she was herded into a porter cabin, to be precise.

3:04Camilla: Hang on a minute. Weren't you a child of Thatcher whose working-class parents succeeded under the Conservatives in getting you into Oxford University? Yes. And yet apparently that's kind of a hell. And also, what about the line that she repeated? Should we just listen to it? Because we literally heard it, I think probably a dozen times. So, conference, don't ever let anyone tell you that there's no difference between a Labour government and a Conservative government.

3:33Rachel Reeves: The Tories didn't do it and they still don't get it, but Labour does. So don't let anyone ever tell you that there's no difference between a Labour government and a Conservative government. So take pride. Take pride in our values, put into action. And conference, don't ever let anyone tell you that there's no difference between a Labour government and a Conservative government.

4:02Camilla: The biggest cash investment into council, social and affordable housing in a generation.

4:09Rachel Reeves: So conference, don't ever let anyone tell you that there's no difference between a Labour government and a Conservative government.

4:18Tim: Two problems with that line. One, the Conservatives are supposed to be irrelevant.

4:22Camilla: Yes.

4:23Tim: Labour's supposed to be bringing the fight to reform. But if you keep mentioning the Conservatives, well, if that's the people you're comparing yourself to, it just feels like you're a bit out of date. And secondly, who goes around saying there's no difference between a Conservative and a Labour government? No. So she's always hearing this. Who's she saying?

4:38Camilla: She's saying that to the left, though, obviously. This is the key thing.

4:40Tim: Who does say that? Who was this speech really aimed at? It was really for internal consumption. The big message of the speech was we've got to keep spending restraint. She wouldn't tell us what taxes would go up or what spending would be cut. No, she didn't use the word tax. No. So she didn't talk about how she would achieve this spending restraint. And in fact, there were a couple of goodies thrown out to the conference hall. One is that she wants to make sure that every primary school has a school library.

5:05Camilla: Noble aid. You could point to a lot of libraries being closed under Tony Blair, but never mind. Right.

5:10Tim: But that doesn't sound too bad. So there were some extra spending. She wouldn't say how she'd achieve that spending restraint. But we were sitting in a part of the hall where we were next to the MPs who were led in at the beginning of the speech, like the March of the Siamese Children.

5:23Camilla: They were herded in.

5:25Tim: And many of them are under 25. And it was quite a sort of Blairite progressive bunch. It's certainly a Starmorite bunch we were sitting next to. And when she was talking about spending restraint, they were going, here, here, here, here. But as I say, if you're not going to say what it is you're going to cut, you're not going to say what taxes you're going to raise. but also I'm sure one or two of the MPs in that group of people voted against or helped to block the welfare reform package. And in fact in the middle of the exhibition hall we noticed is an advert for motability cars. They've got a giant motability car and it's sort of mixed messages here.

5:58Camilla: We want to solve youth unemployment but we did have a massive package of welfare cuts that was so opposed by MPs that basically we're not really cutting welfare at all. That's what I mean about the contradictions at the heart of this offering. And it almost sums up the problem with Starmerism in itself. She's basically giving a speech that plays to old Labour, lots of mention of steel workers, construction workers. She was introduced by somebody who was a member of the GMB union. He made a nice joke about, I'm not in a suit. He was in his working man's clothing, so to speak. So it's a massive appeal to those people who clearly they're worried about going to reform.

6:36Tim: It's appeal to reform.

6:37Camilla: But it was also some kind of reassurance that they are Blairites, even though the person that is challenging Keir Starmer now for the leadership has pivoted fully to the left, recognising that the Blairite offering isn't being sold well on the doorstep by MPs who privately, it's all like this, isn't it, on the surface, everything's going so well privately. You say, well, off the record, how's it going? Oh, my God, it's terrible. We can't sell him in. People don't like him. People don't like him. And you're going, oh, my God. And then the central question, of course, is always, what is Starmerism?

7:10Camilla: And because you can't define it, because all Starmerism has been so far for the last 14, 15 months, is reacting, reactive politics. There's no central vision there. What does he stand for? We just don't know. It's very hard for the delegates here, I think, to see a positive future because he looks like he's in office and not in power. And it's giving me shades of Theresa May in 2017.

7:32Tim: Yes. Well, the two things haunting this conference thus far have been Andy Burnham, who's been going to various fringe events and giving talks about hubs and trams and sort of showing a bit of leg to the delegates. There was an implicit criticism of Andy Burnham in there, wasn't there?

7:45Camilla: Yes, with the whole Liz Truss reference. Shall we have a little listen? There are still people who peddle the idea that we could just abandon economic responsibility, cast off any constraints on spending. They are wrong. Dangerously so. And we need to be honest about what that choice would mean. Because when spending gets out of control, when market confidence is lost, that doesn't just show up in some OBR reports and some difficult headlines a few months later. It is felt immediately in the growing cost of essentials and rising interest rates.

8:27Tim: And of course, Nigel Farage and reform. That's what Labour's really worried about. Never mind all this constant talking about the Conservatives. They haven't yet worked out how to deal with those two problems. No. And they are leaning into a number of contradictions. So Rachel Reeves' contradiction is to tell the conference floor, we are raising spending, we are giving lots of breakfast clubs to people, but also we need to have fiscal restraint. And in fact, that's part of Labour's DNA, don't you know? Yes. The other contradiction is on immigration. At the weekend, the Prime Minister came up with this new formula that reforms policy is racist, but people who vote for it aren't.

9:03Camilla: Yes. And by the way, Shabana Mahmood, who is the new Home Secretary, is basically going to take a reform, indefinite leave to remain light policy and put it before conference because, by the way, everybody now, any shade of politics, wants to get immigration down.

9:20Tim: Yeah, precisely. They want to drape themselves in the union flag

9:22Camilla: even though they had previously denounced it. The Prime Minister himself has suggested that border control was inherently racist but no, you know, they're criticising Farage and yet they're absolutely singing from his hymn sheet just some slightly different notes.

9:36Tim: Well, the real policy change that we've heard thus far at the conference is on immigration and it's about making indefinite leave to remain much harder to get so that in future you will have to volunteer, have very good English, have a certain income, not be on benefits, not have a criminal sentence, etc, etc. That's not much different from the kind of barriers that reform wants to put up. I mean, reformers barriers are much more dramatic. They're about pushing people, a part of the Boris wave, out of the country. Whereas Mahmoud is about making it difficult to remain. Yes. And at the same time as Labour's doing that, Rachel Reeves in her speech also championed a new policy on EU migration.

10:16Camilla: Yes, youth mobility scheme.

10:17Tim: So that young people can, yes, go and work in Europe, but also the EU doesn't... The EU is not one directional when it comes to negotiations. The deal will be that Portuguese and Spanish kids can come and work here. And when Starmer talked about there being growth must be everywhere, I thought he meant Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. I didn't think he meant Portugal or Crete.

10:38Camilla: But there's still kind of a slight globalist Davos crowd here, isn't there? It got a big cheer. Some people are supporting the ID card scheme because it seems to homogenise us with Europe, who all have ID cards bar I think it is Denmark. So there's that going on in the background. Should we talk about the protests? Because I think that's the interesting characterisation of this conference as well. A little bit like the Tories where you have a conference with people saying publicly something and then saying the complete opposite privately. Protesters outside. Steve Bray's here. I mean, I know the guy never has a day off.

11:08Camilla: You know, Mr. Anti-Brexit man who's got a loud hailer. We've got people protesting against ID cards, people protesting for and against Gaza, people protesting on the farming tax. That's not normally the environment of arriving at a Labour Party conference, which is interesting, point one. I no disagree with you there. I think they've been there at every conference I've ever been to.

11:29Tim: The difference was the Corbyn years.

11:31Camilla: But hang on a minute. Normally they're protesting against the likes of you and me. Yes.

11:34Tim: Now they're protesting against the Prime Minister

11:36Camilla: because they think that he is like the likes of you and me.

11:39Tim: Yeah. Well, that's the switch, isn't it? Last year's conference was a celebration conference. This year's conference is a, oh, my gosh, what's gone wrong conference. But the protesters have always turned up to Labour events. The difference is that in the brief Corbyn period, they were inside the tent.

11:52Camilla: Yes.

11:52Tim: You would actually find them at fringe meetings or even speaking on the conference floor. The striking thing this year is that, yes, the protesters are outside doing horrendous things like they were laying models of dead babies out at the entrance representing killed Palestinians, etc. By contrast here, there is a big controversial motion about Palestine. The rebel one wants to recognize that it's a genocide and to demand tougher sanctions. Attending the debate for that, every speaker was against the motion. And the speakers were also jolly reasonable and often quite posh. Yes. There was one lady who began her speech against this motion by quoting from the Financial Times.

12:33Tim: Yes. And I thought, when delegates to a Labour conference are quoting from the FT... Rather than the socialist worker. You know that something's changed. And at this conference, I'm left thinking, if you are a young person, an activist, a socialist, why are you here? Yes. Why would you come to this strange gathering of people who are milquetoast and in the middle of everything and promising a bit of something to everyone, but also emphasising fiscal restraint and were also loyal to Keir? I know. Again...

13:01Camilla: What person under 25 wants anything to do with that? Its contradictions abound. Shall we just talk about the heckler? There's a moment in Rachel Reavey's speech. Let's just listen.

13:09Tim: Again, happens every year. Let's just listen to that.

13:11Camilla: We're introducing new legislation to put our economic security first.

13:23Rachel Reeves: We understand your cause and we are recognising a Palestinian state, but we are now a party in government, not a party of protest. And I am proud to stand here as your Chancellor, the Chancellor that means free to minimum ways, a Chancellor that is introducing free breakfast clubs and free school meals, a Chancellor that has overseen five cups to integrate. That's the difference we make, and that is the difference we make in the world. in our not-true process. I'm part of this case, and that is why I am standing here, proud to be your Chancellor of the Exchequer.

13:59Camilla: I actually thought she handled it quite well, because she said, we hear your cause, we've recognised the state of Palestine.

14:07Rachel Reeves: Yes.

14:07Camilla: Now you and your flag must leave. And to be fair, they left pretty sharpish. They did. So it wasn't something that infected the speech. We've seen other heckling attempts that have actually gone on and on and on. So it was well-contained. I thought she held her nerve, which was good. But it's still, you know, the debate is still... It begs the question, you've recognised Palestine and still on it goes.

14:26Tim: It wasn't a witty reply.

14:28Camilla: No.

14:29Tim: I thought Rachel looked nervous throughout much of her speech.

14:31Camilla: She got more confident as she went on. She did, yes. But I was watching her and the video that they played at the beginning, of course, was like the smiliest she's ever looked. I'm so happy in my job. And, of course, you can't help but contrast those scenes with her crying in the Commons. She can never escape.

14:48Tim: I can't not think of it.

14:49Camilla: No, and Keir Starmer came onto the stage and they looked very warm towards each other and there was lots of kissing and hugging afterwards and I thought, that's great. But deep down again, another contradiction. We know that you are constantly undermining this woman.

15:01Tim: Yes.

15:02Camilla: The other narrative that is bubbling beneath the scenes here is a huge amount of dissatisfaction with the operation inside Number 10, which is too blokey. I've spoken to a lot of female MPs here who have made the point, you know, are there any women left in Downing Street? OK, I get that the deputy leadership race will perhaps redress that balance because it's Bridget Philipson versus Lucy Powell and it looks like Lucy Powell will win overwhelmingly with support from the membership that are giving a sort of two-fingered salute to Keir Starmer over it all. But we've also had slightly sort of Stasi-like behaviour, which actually Andy Burnham leaned into in an event last night.

15:38Camilla: You know, why are you attacking your enemies?

15:41Tim: You said there was a climate of fear in the Labour Party.

15:43Camilla: And also Paul Bristow, who's the Tory mayor for Cambridge, did a funny little tweet about how the leadership was in trouble. He was meant to come here to represent Cambridgeshire, basically, in a kind of non-partisan way. They then rescinded his application. So it's like, on one hand, it's all free and open and progressive and everyone's welcome, but actually not if you're a dirty Tory.

16:06Tim: Yes, yes. I also found much of what Reeves said shallow. So she emphasised that she is a woman. Of course, that video that was shown at the beginning was, don't let anyone tell you that girls cannot achieve things. Yes. So she did the whole, I'm the first female chancellor. Okay. And before Hervé Cooper said, and I just, this was such a reach. It was extraordinary. She said, and I am only the second female foreign secretary. Oh, no.

16:33Camilla: My sister's brother's cousin's sister-in-law was once a female.

16:38Tim: It was even better than that. She said, I'm only the second Labour female foreign secretary, because, of course, there have been Tory female foreign secretaries. So how desperate do you have to be to try and pull that one out of the bag? I know.

16:50Camilla: Just elect a female leader, people. You can solve this. Just try your best.

16:56Tim: As for Rachel, we've heard that her parents were teachers a billion times before. Yes. I'm not convinced that makes you working class. I'm sorry. I don't think teachers equals working class.

17:06Camilla: Well, the only person that can play that card, in my mind, is Angela Rayner. I mean, left school, no GCSEs, single mother.

17:13Tim: And she's no longer on the stage.

17:14Camilla: I haven't seen her. Have you seen her? No, I have not seen her. Where is the lesser spotted? I don't know if she is here. Angela Rayner, which is interesting, isn't it? Because if she, I hear she's also plotting.

17:24Tim: Right.

17:24Camilla: Of course she is. Her people are plotting. There are many people here that want her to be plotting. Yes. But she's obviously doing it more privately than Burnham. Yeah.

17:31Tim: And speaking of the doe-eyed king of the north, Andy Burnham. Dreamy. You spoke to one of his best friends yesterday, Lisa Nandy.

17:37Camilla: Lisa Nandy, thank you for joining me on the Daily Tea. MP for Wigan, Culture Secretary, all-round Labour top bird. I'll tell you what, it's a bit of a difficult start to this conference. We've got Keir Starmer's approval rating having tanked. Your mate Andy Burnham seems to be more popular. What's your general view of how things are for the party right now?

17:57Rachel Reeves: I think you could see the Prime Minister came out this weekend talking about the fight for the soul of the nation. I think you can see and you will see over the course of these next few days that we're a party that understands that everything is at stake for the country at the moment. I've just come for an event where I was talking about the fact that I'm the first Labour Cabinet Minister of Indian Heritage. My dad came to this country in the 1950s from India and as an academic went on to write the Race Relations Act with Roy Jenkins. I haven't seen as much division and fear on our streets since I was growing up in Manchester in the 1980s and I think we've got the fight on our hands to fight for the country that we believe in one that's big enough to include all of us where everyone can play their part where everyone is seen, heard and valued so I think this is the moment really that you're going to see all of us rise to the occasion

18:53Camilla: Do you think people are galvanising around the Prime Minister now because there's a recognition that he has been in some trouble. It's not been the best 14 months. The polls aren't looking great for Labour. They're looking really good for Nigel Farage's reform. And can we talk about this Andy Burnham sort of I'm not ruling out a challenge? That's not particularly helpful. What's your view on that as a fellow Northern MP?

19:15Rachel Reeves: Well, I'm a Mancunian by birth and we're not shy of saying what we think. I don't think we should be, actually. When I think about devolution, I'm a big champion of devolution, as you know, Camilla. Part of the reason for that is I think in too many parts of the country people haven't been heard for a really long time. And when I look at the system of government, I think often what you've had is a way of governing that essentially makes decisions from behind desks in Whitehall, hands those decisions to the rest of the country, while the rest of us are clamouring to be heard. Probably best encapsulated by the approach of the last Tory government with levelling up where you had government ministers sort of wandering around the community handing back bits of our money to us for leisure centres that we didn't want and park benches that we didn't need when there's so much that we could have done if we'd been put in charge.

20:07Rachel Reeves: So I think it's really important that Andy uses his voice and his platform to be able to shout very loudly for people across Greater Manchester and the North.

20:15Camilla: But that's not what he's doing. He's shouting very loudly for his own leadership prospects.

20:18Rachel Reeves: Well, look, but I also think if you look at what we're doing as a government, we're heeding that call so over the last year we've legislated to bring the railways back into public ownership so they can be run for people not profit we've cleaned up our waterways massive fines for water bosses who break them we've already changed the planning rules so that we go making progress on building those one and a half million homes that we need in my own area we promised football fans we put them back at the heart of the game we promised them that five years ago. It's been drift, delay and broken promise after broken promise and we've passed that legislation in a year.

20:52Rachel Reeves: I think the job for us is to relentlessly get on with delivering for people. I take what you're saying about the polls and I knock on doors every week in Wigan, I hear what the frustration that people have about the circumstances of their lives and the opportunities on offer for their kids but that's why we've got to relentlessly focus on making people's lives easier and better and reminding people actually that in this country We are brilliant at film, TV, music, fashion, sport, all the things that, in my brief, we need to recover our sense of self-confidence again.

21:24Camilla: How worried are you, though, that MRP polling kind of names some Labour big beasts that might lose their seats, and you're one of them, and I looked at that and thought... God, you just called me a big beast. I know, I don't mean it. You know how I mean that, Lisa Nandy. I mean it in terms of stature in politics, thank you very much. But, like, Lisa Nandy loses Wigan? What to reform?

21:43Rachel Reeves: Yeah, stop saying that, please. You've given me...

21:45Camilla: But it's a worry, this. And also, you're talking about it's such a divisive time. Does it necessarily help to have the Prime Minister describing people who may support that indefinite leave-to-remain policy being, quotes, racists? They're not, are they? There are many people in Wigan that actually look at Farage and think, I actually like what he's saying. Immigration's out of control. We've got to control it. I don't trust Labour. I don't trust the Conservatives. I'm going to go with reform. They're not racists.

22:12Rachel Reeves: No, I mean, you know, one of the things we're discussing, with lots of friends, family, constituents the Tommy Robinson march in London a few weeks ago and the challenge for us is, I have no truck with people like Tommy Robinson and his ilk they've come to my town before kicking up problems, attacking the police displaying racist conspiracy theories, we don't want that in our town, but the real question that the whole nation has to come together and answer is, 150 ,000 people on the streets of London cannot be racist. I knew people on that demonstration, ordinary decent people who if I'm honest, a decade ago would not have wanted anything to do with something that that group of people who organised the demonstration were part of.

22:59Rachel Reeves: They're increasingly being pulled into it. So the Prime Minister needs to choose this language carefully. Look, we all need to choose our language carefully but I think the point he was making was the right one is that more and more we're seeing people being drawn into these movements and these movements, people who are really decent, who've rejected hate over and over again. The story of my town isn't the story of the racists who come in and try and whip up hate. It's the story of ordinary working class people who for a hundred years have driven them out of town over and over again. And we've got to ask ourselves, why are people attracted to these things?

23:31Rachel Reeves: I'll tell you why, it's my honest assessment, is that I haven't met a single person knocking on doors in my town who really thinks that reform have all the answers to the problems that the country has but they want to believe that they have people who are fighting every single day to make life better for them and their kids and that's the job that we've got to rise to we're doing it we've been doing it for a year we're 14 months we you know we're the fourth ever Labour government in history we're determined to make every single minute count and we know that people can't wait but the challenge is that we've got to get out there and show people that we're straining every sinew we're pulling every lever that we're not wasting a minute in trying to make their lives better.

24:11Camilla: Forgive me, I should probably know this. Have you declared who you're supporting in the deputy leadership?

24:15Rachel Reeves: Yes, so I'm supporting Lucy Powell. How come? So I've known her and Bridget a very long time, and I really, really rate them both. I think they're both strong women. It's driven me to distraction watching it described as a proxy battle between two men. I mean, this is the sort of nonsense that we've had to put up with for too long, and it's 2025, for God's sake. I think people should give their heads a wobble. The theory behind that, by the way, just to explain,

24:38Camilla: is that Bridget Philipson is Keir Starmer's candidate and Lucy Powell is Andy Burnham's.

24:42Rachel Reeves: Yeah, it's just...

24:43Camilla: This is sisters doing it for themselves, isn't it?

24:45Rachel Reeves: It really is, and nobody could meet Lucy or Bridget and not think that they have their own views. But the reason I'm supporting Lucy is because I think I've seen her stand up for us across Greater Manchester, where we're both MPs, and the north of England for a really long time. She's not afraid to say it how it is. She will give members in every region and constituency see a real voice and a seat at the table, which I think is the job of the deputy leader. And doing it outside of the cabinet, she can do it without fear or favour. But I also, I do feel really strongly that our politics is far too London-centric.

25:21Rachel Reeves: And for, you know, Lucy lives in Manchester, she brings her kids up there, she uses northern transport, northern healthcare, northern schools, she has skin in the game. And those of us who don't live in London and the South East have really struggled to get this across in recent years. The Prime Minister has listened. He's heeded that call. I remember a really powerful speech he gave just before the election where he said for far too long we've had a one-word plan for most of this country, redistribution, and we need to respect the contribution that people have to make. I think that was a real turning point for our movement, but I think Lucy will continue in that tradition and help us be heard.

25:57Camilla: Final question, because you made the point about it being rather sexist to suggest that these two women are proxies for men. Are Labour women all right? We've had Bridget Phillipson complain about a degree of sexism in general towards her. Number 10 seems to be quite a blokey place right now. Good old Steph Driver, who was the head of communication, she's the last to leave, kind of got forced out by Tim Allen, a bloke. Lots of briefing against Labour women. It's not great.

26:21Rachel Reeves: Well, look, I mean, I think politics is a tough place to be a woman. And, you know, when I first got elected as the MP for Wigham, 15 years ago, I used to go into schools and say to young men and women, but especially young women, you know, if you look at the system and you want it to change, if you've got views, if you want to listen, think and change this country, you've got to get involved, we need you. I don't say that anymore and it makes me sad to think that I don't, but I just, I've watched what a lot of the women that I was elected alongside have had to go through, you know, the stuff that's been thrown at Rachel, for example, as the first ever female chancellor.

27:01Rachel Reeves: And, you know, it does make me hesitate before I say to young women, yeah, come and get involved. I think we've all got a responsibility to really rise to this moment, and the reason that I just sort of lost my rag a bit about the way that the female, two strong women in a deputy leadership contest have been characterised as proxies for men is because I think I've learnt from really great colleagues like Jess Phillips, like Stella Creasy, like Yvette Cooper, like Tessa Jowell before them, that you have to call this stuff out. It's incumbent on us to do so. So here I go again. Sick of it. It's 2025, everybody.

27:33Camilla: Give your heads a wobble. Lisa Nandy, thank you very much indeed for joining me on The Daily Tea. Thank you. Let's listen to the Prime Minister's bestie next, Nick Thomas-Simmons. He's the Paymaster-General, but he's very, very close to the Premier.

28:12Camilla: We'll be right back. can handpick the perfect holiday for you. Simpsontravel.com. Because your time is precious.

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29:17Camilla: Nick Thomas-Simmons, the Paymaster General, joins us now. Thank you for coming on The Daily Tea. Lovely to speak to you. Is it fair to say that you're a close personal friend of the Prime Minister's?

29:27Andy Burnham: I think that's a fair assessment. I've known the Prime Minister for many, many years and obviously worked with him very closely in politics, not just this period when he's been the leader of the party. I was obviously a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet, obviously now a senior minister. But he's someone I've come to know extremely well over that period, but obviously knew him before that as well.

29:48Camilla: How do you think he's coping with the negative publicity around his leadership at this conference? Because we had that poll, which must have been upsetting for him. He's the least popular PM in history, apparently, down to, I think, a 66 % negative approval rating. That's lower than John Major, lower than Boris Johnson, even lower than Liz Truss after the mini-budget. That's got to hurt, hasn't it, when he's only 15 months into his premiership?

30:15Andy Burnham: Well, firstly, I would say that we always knew it was going to be difficult with the inheritance that we had. But Keir is probably the most resilient person that I've ever met. He's got this extraordinary resilience. And look, we've been through difficult periods in his leadership when we were in opposition. If you think back to 2021 and you recall the Hartlepool by-election, I'm sure, Camilla, which seems like a political world away now, but the then Conservative government, I think, was very high in the opinion polls at the time. But what I've seen from the Prime Minister is when you have moments of difficulty, it tends to reinforce that centre of resilience about him.

30:59Andy Burnham: He really thrives under that level of pressure, and I think that is what we are going to see in his conference speech tomorrow, and what I've seen of him at this conference, that resilience seems to be on show.

31:13Camilla: Can I ask you about his comments yesterday to the BBC about reform's policy on indefinite leave to remain being racist? You do appreciate that a lot of Telegraph readers quite like that reform policy and we're going to see the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, actually ape parts of it. So is it racist? Are people who believe in those sorts of immigration policies racist?

31:37Andy Burnham: There's a distinction here, though, between what Shabana Mahmood is saying, what the government is saying, and what reform are saying. Because what Shabana Mahmood is saying about indefinite leave to remain is that living here in the IT kingdom, getting indefinite leave to remain, in our wonderful country, is a great privilege. She is looking at, for example, the period of qualification going from five years to ten years. Looking at that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Having a debate on immigration is probably a reasonable thing to do. What the Prime Minister was specifically calling out as racist is a policy where you have people, not people who've come here illegally, we would all agree that where people who come here illegally and are found have no right to be here should be removed.

32:21Andy Burnham: This government's removed about 35 ,000 people. What the Prime Minister was calling out is where people already have gained that indefinite leave to remain. They've already got the right to be here. They are living here perfectly quietly, perfectly lawfully, often making a great contribution to our economy. Saying to those people who've been through that process, and these will be people, they may well be our neighbours, they may well be people that we are working with, suddenly you are at risk of deportation. That is a million miles away from a reasonable debate on immigration. And that's why the Prime Minister was quite right.

32:55Camilla: But she's saying that if you want to get indefinite leave to remain, you have to be off benefits, volunteering and speak good English. What Nigel Farage said in that press conference is that half of those who are on indefinite leave to remain are actually claiming benefits and claiming welfare. And therefore, they're a net negative, not a net benefit contributor to the tax system. You must have sympathy with your own constituents and voters thinking to themselves, I'm really struggling here with the cost of living crisis. I'm doing really long shift work. and I feel like I'm worse off than people who have come here, OK, albeit as legal immigrants, but they're actually not contributing to the tax system at all.

33:35Camilla: They seem to be better off. And that's a massive problem for Labour when you're meant to be the party of the working class.

33:41Andy Burnham: Look, I've no doubt whatsoever, and we'll see, I'm sure, in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech today, announcement that she's making, that we have to tackle the issues around cost of living. But the point here is, it's a really important point of principle. Yes, people, when we're talking about indefinite leave to remain, needs to realise living here and staying here is a privilege, absolutely, and I think that's a reasonable debate. But the important principle, the line that has been crossed here by Nigel Farage, and that's why the premise is right to go out, is where people are already here lawfully.

34:18Andy Burnham: It's not that they've come here illegally. It's not that they've not followed the lawful post.

34:23Camilla: But the term, I think it's the term racist. Are you saying that even though you don't agree with the policy, people who do agree with Nigel Farage's policy are racist? Because if the policy is racist, then the people who support it are racist. And that could be your voters.

34:38Andy Burnham: I'm certainly not calling voters racist. And I've, you know, I've had this debate, I think I've had the debate with you on migration many times on your show. And that is a perfectly reasonable debate. But the point is that if you are saying that someone who came here, who went through that process, has every right to be here, that our own laws, our country's laws are racist. No, I get your argument.

35:00Camilla: I get your argument completely. You've articulated it really, really well. But what I'm saying is if the Prime Minister turn around and says the policy is racist, what he's actually saying is that British people who support the policy are racists. That's the implication. And this is rhetoric. He keeps on entering into people who are involved in the Southport protests were far right. concerns about people outside epping migrant hotels. Now he's saying that people who might support reforms, immigration policies, are, by association, racists. That's such problematic language for somebody who wants to fly the flag tomorrow and talk about patriotism.

35:33Andy Burnham: No, no, no, I don't think it is, because I think what the Prime Minister is saying is absolutely in line with British values of fair play. And the British value of fair play is, if you come here, you follow the law, you follow the rules, you then get indefinite leave to remain. Standing alongside those people, standing alongside a principle that if you've played by the rules you're entitled to be here, is in my view squarely in the British tradition. What absolutely isn't in the British tradition of fair play and why the Prime Minister called out what Nigel Farage was saying is racist is saying to people who've made their lives here on the basis of our laws, living here perfectly peaceably, that suddenly you're at threat of deportation.

36:14Andy Burnham: That's not the British way, and the Prime Minister has got it to call out. It isn't about voters. It isn't about the very legitimate debate that we're having about migration. It is about something that Nigel Farage said that the Prime Minister has got it to call out.

36:26Camilla: Can we just have a quick word about ID cards? Have you thought through what the sanction might be if someone turns around and says, no, I don't want one, this is Stasi-like, it's Big Brothers watching you, I don't subscribe to it and I don't want to do it? What sanction do those people face? Jail?

36:42Andy Burnham: Well, there's one very obvious sanction that's going to be here, which is that people are not going to be able to work if they do not produce their digital ID. And I should say on this, this is hugely important for two reasons, it seems to me. First of all, it is unquestionably a pull factor for legal migration to the United Kingdom that people can come and work here in the gig economy, the underground economy. So actually introducing that simplistic way, hold me up on the telephone at the moment, Camilla, on your telephone of digital ID, is going to be a way, a universal way, of checking that people have the right to work.

37:20Andy Burnham: So I think that's the first point. But the second point as well is the whole idea of citizenship, if you like, in the 2020s, it's very, very different to what it was 10 years or even 20 years ago in terms of being able to access services. And people listening to this will be familiar, you have to produce your driving licence, so you have to produce your passport, you have to produce your utility bill, all these are the things that you're expected to produce. There is going to be a simplicity about it, a convenience about it to the population more generally. The public doesn't want it, though.

37:48Camilla: Two million signatures on a petition within 48 hours of it being announced.

37:54Andy Burnham: Well, that doesn't necessarily mean that that is the view of the entire public, and I think what we will be doing is making the case for the benefits of this. I think there is a benefit most definitely in terms of illegal migration, But I think there is a wider benefit we'll make the case for as well.

38:08Camilla: Final cue, as one of Starmer's besties, what's your message to Andy Burnham? He's gone too early, hasn't he? This isn't helpful to the Prime Minister to have the brown-eyed boy of the north, the king of the north, freelancing and on manoeuvres.

38:23Andy Burnham: Do you know, though, Camilla, I've been coming to party conferences for well over 20 years. I've forgotten the number I've been to that had leadership speculation about something.

38:33Camilla: It's often a Conservative Party kind of concept to have the leader on stage and then his main rival having people queue around the block. Come on, this is giving me Theresa May 2017 Boris Johnson vibes. What's Burnham playing at?

38:48Andy Burnham: Well, look, you'll have to ask Andy about that. Well, look, I think Andy has done, and he's doing a fantastic job, obviously as the Mayor of Greater Manchester. But in terms of the party leadership, I think we have an excellent and indeed the best leader of the Labour Party we could have at this moment. You will see that, I'm sure, in case of tomorrow. Have you had words, Nick?

39:06Camilla: Have you sent the odd WhatsApp? Come on, mate. Wind your neck in.

39:10Andy Burnham: I've actually, over the course of recent months, worked very closely with Andy Burnham, actually, on issues like the Hillsborough Law and others. And, of course, I worked with him as the Mayor of Greater Manchester. But, look, we have the very best leader of the Labour Party that we could have.

39:23Camilla: Nick Thomas-Simmons, lovely to see you today. Thank you very much for coming on The Daily Tea.

39:31Camilla: We're both writing pieces now, Tim, aren't we? What are you writing? You're sketching?

39:34Tim: I'm going to be sketching Rachel Reeves, yes. And I just want people to stop telling me that there's no difference between a Conservative and a Labour government. I can just go one day without someone telling me that.

39:43Camilla: Yes, I know. Well, maybe when we get home, I can't imagine anyone saying that to us outside of this Liverpool arena. And I'm going to be writing a piece about whether it's all a bit too little, too late for Starmer. It's not looking good. I appreciate that some people have galvanised around him. I also appreciate that the general consensus is Burnham's gone way too early. But I feel he's on a sticky wicket.

40:04Tim: Yeah, I think I probably agree.

40:06Camilla: We'll be back tomorrow with more fun and frolics from Liverpool, 5pm.

40:35Andy Burnham: spring is here for a limited time get a free pura for diffuser when you subscribe to two cents for 12 months layer in fresh transportive scents for a brighter lighter spring visit pura.com and refresh your space today

40:52Tim: acast powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend howdy howdy ho and welcome to fantasy fan fellas i'm hayden producer of the fantasy fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things sanderson and i'm steven your bookish

41:09Andy Burnham: internet goofball but you can call me the smash daddy and we are currently deep diving brandon

41:13Tim: sanderson's fantasy epic miss born but here's the catch steven here has not read miss born before

41:20Andy Burnham: that's right hey hey so each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter

41:25Tim: and along the way we'll do character deep dives magic explainers and steven will even try to guess what's next spoiler alert he'll be wrong newsflash i'm never wrong episodes come out every

41:35Andy Burnham: wednesday and you can find fantasy fanfellows wherever you get your podcasts a cast helps

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