In short
A conversation about surviving the sudden death of a child and what grief is like “from the inside,” including how families stay together, how people misunderstand or avoid grieving parents, and how digital platforms create ongoing “emotional IEDs” after death.
Guests
Danielle Crittenden Fromm, Atlantic staff writer and author of Dispatches from Grief: A Mother’s Journey Through the Unthinkable. She grew up in Toronto newspaper culture (Toronto Sun newsroom) and began her journalism career as a teenage copy girl. Her daughter Miranda died suddenly in February 2024 at 32. Miranda had worked as a TV producer in Toronto, became a fashion model in Israel, and survived Hamas rocket fire in Tel Aviv (2014) before later being diagnosed with a deadly brain tumor (2018) and undergoing a 10-hour operation (2019). Co-hosts: Natalie Brennan and Julie Beck (Atlantic) introduce the episode; David Frum interviews Danielle.
Key claims
grief after a child’s death is unlike grief for parents; healing/acceptance narratives can feel untrue; grieving parents become social “pariahs” after the initial shock; families must consciously “re-knit” to avoid falling apart; digital reminders outlive physical ones, while accessing a deceased person’s data can require court orders.
Notable examples
the “dental hygienist” asking “what’s new”; a hotel front-desk exchange during Miranda’s apartment clearance; Facebook “memories” and car prompts to connect to Miranda’s iPhone; court-ordered access to Miranda’s iCloud photos (with many images of her dog Ringo).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOReflections on Loss
1:31 to 2:23
David shares memories and context about their daughter Miranda and her impact.
“Hello, and welcome to The David Fromm Show.”
Danielle's Journey in Grief
2:23 to 4:17
Danielle discusses her experience of writing about grief and loss.
“Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way because there's hope in hard questions.”
Different Types of Grief
4:17 to 9:30
Danielle categorizes grief and reflects on losing a child versus losing a parent.
“I usually keep these introductions brief, but I will make an exception here to say a little more about Miranda and Danielle.”
The Loneliness of Grief
9:30 to 14:03
The conversation explores the unique challenges faced by grieving parents.
“Those are the two categories of human beings.”
The Pariah of Grief
14:03 to 15:11
Exploration of how grieving individuals can feel isolated from society.
“And so often the answer is, well, just don't go to other people's feasts.”
Expressing Grief in Public
15:14 to 17:14
Discussing the challenges of revealing grief in everyday situations.
“I mean, I did eventually, and you watched this in real time, me trying to get help because I was hysterical half the time.”
Breaking the Silence of Grief
17:15 to 18:59
How sharing personal loss can open connections with others in pain.
“I remember my first dental appointment after Miranda's death and the hygienist asking me, so what's new?”
The Weight of Sharing Loss
19:00 to 21:04
Navigating conversations about loss and the emotional burdens they carry.
“And that used to be the easiest question in the world to answer.”
Writing Through Grief
21:05 to 23:38
The role of writing in processing grief and capturing memories.
“And then, and then the Ringo article, well, my show, I'll tell my story.”
Artistry and Humor in Grief
23:39 to 27:06
The balance of humor and tragedy in the narrative of loss.
“I originally did not want to put Miranda in it because I just felt I wouldn't be able to capture her.”
Show all 23 chapters
Facing the Tasks of Loss
27:07 to 28:00
The emotional challenges of managing a loved one's belongings after death.
“And I now think of them as like, you know, the drunken knights or guardsmen in a very tragic Shakespeare play where everything is so dark.”
Preparing to Clear Out Her Apartment
28:00 to 30:44
The emotional journey of clearing out a deceased child's apartment and the unexpected interactions with strangers.
“and you have to go through their room and go through their belongings.”
Navigating Grief as a Family
30:44 to 33:31
Discussing survival and coping mechanisms in the aftermath of losing a child, focusing on family dynamics and individual grief.
“So you're going to do a lot of podcasts and you're going to answer many similar questions.”
The Complexities of Motherhood and Guilt
33:31 to 37:09
Exploring the feelings of guilt and conflict in a parent-child relationship after the loss of a child.
“from how I grieved, of course, Nat, our son, Bea, our daughter.”
Remembering Miranda: A Complex Relationship
37:09 to 42:00
Reflecting on the evolving relationship with Miranda, her challenges, and the lessons learned through parenting.
“And, and as I said, there were, and the ways I had to come through all of that was by saying, you know what, well, maybe that, that's, that was just inevitable.”
Cherishing Memories of Miranda
42:00 to 44:09
Explore the deep emotional bond and memories shared with Miranda.
“and I felt by the time she died, I mean, we had become so close.”
Understanding Family Dynamics After Loss
44:10 to 48:26
Learn how to navigate family relationships and dynamics following a loss.
“So I want to keep to the theme of survival.”
The Impact of Grief on Physical and Mental Health
48:27 to 49:54
Discover how grief affects both mental state and physical well-being.
“People don't get over this or through it.”
Escaping Into Work: A Common Response
49:55 to 52:08
Discuss the tendency to escape grief through work and its implications.
“And so you're just, you get mental fog, you get very forgetful.”
Navigating the Digital Afterlife
52:09 to 56:00
Examine the challenges of managing digital memories after losing a loved one.
“Well, also, and to put it in slightly more modern terms, I mean, the mother can be working full time too.”
Navigating Digital Grief: Accessing a Lost Loved One's Data
56:00 to 1:00:17
Learn about the challenges of accessing a deceased loved one's digital files and the emotional implications involved.
“And that's just a kind of decisions and assault you get, I don't know, 10 times a day that you're faced with.”
The Grief Industry: Problem-Solving Culture and Its Pitfalls
1:00:17 to 1:03:44
Explore the concept of the grief industry and the problematic narratives around personal growth after loss.
“I mean, these are the people who go to TED Talks, run retreats, write articles about how basically the worst thing that can possibly happen to you is an opportunity for personal growth.”
Finding Purpose Through Grief and Connection
1:03:44 to 1:05:30
Discover how the process of writing and connecting with others through grief can lead to personal growth and purpose.
“and I hope it will bring comfort to people who need comfort, understanding to people who need understanding or want understanding.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Logging off. Rebuilding our attention spans. Trading in smartphones for dumb phones. Why are people trying to get off their screens? And what are they really after? I'm Natalie Brennan, a producer at The Atlantic. And I'm Julie Beck, a staff writer at The Atlantic. This season, we're exploring the often fraught, always changing relationship people have with technology. And examining the ways our devices affect our connection with one another. New episodes of How to Touch Grass come out every Monday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. A few months ago, I invited Atlantic staff writer Charlie Worzel onto the David Frum Show.
0:37As podcast hosts, we talked about the pressures and temptations of the medium. Outrage often gets rewarded. Nuance does not. Charlie doesn't take that bait. On his show Galaxy Brain, he covers the ways technology is changing how we think and how we live. not just the obvious stuff but the subtle ways it shapes what we believe how we talk to each other how we see ourselves and our neighbors if you've ever wondered how smart people end up believing implausible things online Galaxy Brain is worth your time it's thoughtful, surprising and a little unsettling in the very best way find it wherever you listen or watch
1:31Hello, and welcome to The David Fromm Show. I'm David Fromm, a staff writer at The Atlantic. My guest this week will be my wife, Danielle Crittenden Fromm, and we'll be discussing her new book about the loss of our daughter, Dispatches from Grief, A Mother's Journey Through the Unthinkable. Because of the personal and sensitive nature of this discussion, I'm not going to do a book this week. I'm not going to do a preliminary introduction. I'm just going to say how grateful I am to Danielle that she would join me today. And now my dialogue with my wife, Danielle Crittenden-From. But first, a quick break.
2:22where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.
2:43A few months ago, I invited Atlantic staff writer Charlie Worzel onto The David Frum Show. As podcast hosts, we talked about the pressures and temptations of the medium. Outrage often gets rewarded. Nuance does not. Charlie doesn't take that bait. On his show Galaxy Brain, he covers the ways technology is changing how we think and how we live. Not just the obvious stuff, but the subtle ways it shapes what we believe, how we talk to each other, how we see ourselves and our neighbors. If you've ever wondered how smart people end up believing implausible things online, Galaxy Brain is worth your time.
3:20It's thoughtful, surprising, and a little unsettling in the very best way. Find it wherever you listen or watch.
3:43Danielle Crittenden and I met on June 13, 1987. We were married a year later. Then we were married again in 1991 in a religious ceremony after Danielle's conversion to Judaism. Our first child, Miranda, was born on July 26, 1991, in New York City. Miranda died suddenly in February of 2024 at age 32. That death and its aftermath are together the subject matter of Danielle's new book, Dispatches from Grief, A Mother's Journey Through the Unthinkable, published by Infinite Books on May 5th. I usually keep these introductions brief, but I will make an exception here to say a little more about Miranda and Danielle.
4:25Miranda lived an adventurous life, from a parent's point of view, often a hair-raisingly adventurous life. She left university after a single semester. She worked as a television producer in Toronto, then moved to Israel, where she was discovered as a fashion model. She posed for advertisements and walked runways in Europe and Japan, and came under Hamas rocket fire in Tel Aviv in the summer of 2014. In the fall of 2018, she was diagnosed with a deadly brain tumor and underwent a 10-hour operation in April 2019. The operation seemed a success, but it left behind complex health issues. One of those issues claimed Miranda's life in her Brooklyn Heights apartment.
5:03The sorrowful details are candidly discussed in Danielle's book. about Danielle. Danielle began her journalistic career as a teenage copy girl at the Toronto Sun. She started work as a reporter before she had even finished high school. She covered murders and fires and the everyday bustle of a great city. Shortly before his death, my friend Christopher Hitchens published perhaps his most provocative article, arguing that women are inherently less funny than men. I happened to lunch with him soon after he detonated that grenade. I remonstrated with him. I asked him, what about Danielle? Christopher did not often look nonplussed, but that one failed him.
5:43Yes, he had to concede. Danielle is very funny. Much funnier than you, old boy, he said. Every one of Danielle's previous books, fiction, nonfiction, even a cookbook co-authored with our friend Anne Applebaum, sparkled with Danielle's genius for comedy. Her friends nicknamed her the Minister of Fun for her ability to make everyday events occasions for joy. This new book is a different thing. One reason it is already being received with such acclaim by early reviewers and early readers is that Danielle holds back not a particle of truth about loss and pain, yet not even life-shattering tragedy has dimmed the wit of Danielle's ardent mind, as the book shows and as you will hear today.
6:24Danielle, welcome. High from the, high from upstairs. High from upstairs. I don't know how we're going to talk about this. We've talked about nothing else, but how do we talk about this now? How do we talk about this in front of other people? I don't know. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to blunder ahead and I have no idea what we're going to produce here, but. Yeah, it's counting on you as host, Dave. That's a thin read. Okay. A question a lot of people are going to ask is how does a mother write something like this? I mean, you cut the vein, you dip the quill in the blood, and you start on the paper.
7:04How do you do it? That actually is a very good description. Well, as you mentioned up the top that I grew up in newspapers, very old school newspapers, madman era of newspapers. All my parents, my four parents, stepfather, stepmother, mother, father, at one point worked in the same newspaper, newsroom in Toronto. So I just grew up in that environment. And, well, you, of course, knew Pete, my late stepfather, who had been a foreign correspondent. He went on to found the Toronto Sun and just was a famous and prolific writer. and his view was that anything that happened to him, he had to write about.
7:48And so the title, Dispatches from Grief, which has always been the title in my head, is like, I felt like a war correspondent who had been transported into this alternative universe, alternative land of grief. And I just had to write about it. It was the pain I could never have imagined. I've never experienced. It wasn't just emotional pain. It was physical pain. And it was the kind of physical pain, like your heart feeling as if it was going to burst, to which there was no painkiller. Like there was nothing that could stop this pain. And the constant mental distress of this loss because, as you know and we share, that when you lose a child, and especially so unexpectedly, it's like a meteorite has just crashed into your house.
9:02and nothing is the same. And you have to come to terms with the fact that nothing ever will be the same. This book, I think, speaks to two different types of people to categorize broadly. Those who are in grief and those who are in the vicinity of grief. And by the way, none of us, unless we are lookishly lucky, or maybe it's unlucky, was maybe we have to die early to qualify for this law. But none of us will escape it. So we're sort of grief and pre-grief. Those are the two categories of human beings. So for those in grief, what do you want to say on their behalf? And for those in the vicinity of grief, what do you want them to know that they need to know?
9:49Well, in the first chapter, I categorize different types of grief. And my first line is, I thought I knew grief. I mean, you and I have Both lost parents. You lost your mother quite early. She was 54. But in your mind as a child, as you grow up, you always know that you're going to outlive your parents. And so in some way, you're prepared, even, I mean, unless they go suddenly and tragically in a terrible accident, your brain, I guess, has prepared you for this eventuality. And it's the reverse when you lose a child. It's completely out of the order of the universe. And the parent never expected to outlive the child.
10:41So that was what was special and different about this type of grief. And I think why I felt I needed to write about it, because I was, you know, in this pain in this foreign land, and I needed to tell people, you know, oh, my God, this is so horrible. Let me describe to you what is going on. Because I think a lot of, well, as you saw me in the early days going through a lot of grief books, I'm going through them maniacally looking for a cure, looking for healing. When will this pain stop? Answer, never. But I couldn't find anything that spoke to what I was going through. I read a lot of books that were, you know, some quite helpful about, you know, yeah, you might experience this, you might experience that.
11:42But the goal of most grief books is for healing, to get you, as they say, through it. And then apparently you'll come to some eventuality of acceptance or, you know, you'll be fine. And that just seemed to me palpably untrue and palpably unhelpful. And one of the things that, you know, we met together when you wrote that first beautiful article about Miranda and her dog Ringo that appeared in the Atlantic, and you suddenly got emails from people who were in our land who had similarly lost children. And one of the things that really stood out was how lonely they were, that it's such a unique type of grief.
12:39It's a type of grief that very few understand, unlike losing a parent. And people don't know what to say to them. They often get very uncomfortable talking about it. And as the world moves on and as people's lives move on, they kind of expect you to move on. And you don't really move on. And so if you don't have a good support network, if you're not in touch with other families in this situation, I think you just quietly nurse this horrible pain. And so in one of the first responses, I shared some of the earlier drafts with some other mothers. And one wrote back to me and said, thank you. Now I have something to show to people.
13:36And that's the other aspect that you mentioned is that if you know someone who is going through this, it kind of gives you a window into the agony. and I hope will make the person more aware of how they can actually help and genuinely provide comfort. Yeah. One of the things we've both noticed, and a friend of ours remarked this in the language I'm about to borrow, that once the first shock passes from your community, There's a sense in which the grieving person can come to feel a bit of a pariah because you don't want to be the ghost at everyone else's feast, bringing gloom with you wherever you go, but you can't help it.
14:28And so often the answer is, well, just don't go to other people's feasts. They don't want you there. You're just going to lower the emotion. We've talked about being grief bores. And a lot of the rituals of grief actually understand the mourner as a kind of semi-pariah. I mean, in the Jewish rituals, you're supposed to stay at home. You eventually exit your house in a formal process of exit, but you stay at home because you're set apart from the world. But even as the clock ticks, you don't change unnecessarily on someone else's timetable and you remain this kind of ghost of the feast, at least in your own mind.
15:02And is that something you're trying to help other grieving parents to understand that this is your destiny and you don't have to, you can't, it's useless to apologize for it and there's no way you can, so you just have to live it. Right. I mean, I did eventually, and you watched this in real time, me trying to get help because I was hysterical half the time. I do want to ask you what I looked like from your perspective, from the outside, because the book is written from the inside, from my perspective. I must have looked like just a crazy person to you. But one of the other comments I got from one of the mothers was, you know, she was glad to know that lying on the floor, curled up in a ball, weeping hysterically was okay.
15:54Like other people do that too. So it is, so there was a lot of, I think, articulation of what I was going through, which resonated with what other people were going through. and yeah I mean I think what happens when you get through that first very intense months years I mean it's been two years um you you learn the pain doesn't go away I mean it's less controlling it's less overwhelming but you just learn to be quiet about it because as you say, you know, what, you know, in the beginning, I write that I felt like I needed to tell everybody, like, at the checkout, you know, person says, how's your day going?
16:52I go, terrible, my daughter died. Like, I just found myself compulsively telling people that. And of course, it was very unnerving to the recipient. But then that kind of dies down and you just learn to, or you try to learn to quietly nurse your pain without telling, like, do they really need to know this? I remember my first dental appointment after Miranda's death and the hygienist asking me, so what's new? and and i remember just sitting there in in the chair with my mouth propped open thinking probably for half a minute uh do i need to go into this and then i finally said not much um because i didn't want to do it but you're you one of the things we all discover is maybe the dental hygienist needed to talk about it because you as you've discovered through both the process of writing and the process of living.
17:51We are surrounded by people who are in pain, half dead, ghosts of themselves. And they often feel they don't have permission to, it's just burdensome to everybody else. And so they just stumble forward, part ghost, part human. Well, and again, like what would be the point of telling people who are not in this world? And as we discovered, I wrote about that when you land, when you're deported unwillingly to this land of grief, you suddenly not just find out how well populated it is, but as we discovered, even amongst some very close friends whom we had known like 20 years, only then did they say, oh yeah, you know, I lost my sister or my mother lost, you know, or my aunt lost a child.
18:41and only now could they tell us because I guess in the past if they told us, what would we say? You know, oh gosh, I'm so sorry, that's terrible but we'd have no identification with it but when someone tells you that and shares that with you then you feel very open and often they do, you're right, they want to talk too and you talk about it but a lot of the time I feel like it's unleashing a nuclear bomb in conversation, as your example with the dental hygienist, that is especially with mothers who talk about their children and you meet someone and they say, oh, how many kids do you have? And that used to be the easiest question in the world to answer.
19:31And now it's like the most fraught thing. And I have to, you know, you have to get little rehearsed bits when in these situations. So sometimes it depends how quickly I think the convers or cursory I think the conversation will be. I'll say I have three. Oh, that's nice. But if it goes on, you know, how old are they? Well, the youngest and middle one and the third one. And then you're still thinking, do I tell them? Do I tell them? And you say, well, our eldest daughter died. And it's just like, you know, I had this experience very recently in a common situation where I would not have talked about it, but I had for someone who, for some reason, this was a very casual conversation, but it was particularly insistent.
20:20So I got the, how many children do you have? And I said, as you do three, um, and, uh, you know, how old are they? And so I said, well, they're all adults. They're all out of the house. but this went for so many rounds that I finally the one that said where are they living now okay like this is question five so I mean it was literally where are they living now okay I don't know how I avoid this one what did you say well I told the truth and then everything went you know and then it's embarrassing for everybody yeah they get super awkward and then you also feel like well why did you know why have i been postponed then they'd look at you a little accusingly like you led me on it's your fault um you were nice enough to mention my ringo article and i when i think about it's an article i wrote for uh the atlantic i guess in may of 2024 so very soon after miranda died um it's the first thing you were able to write uh no the first thing i was able to write was quite weird is i had a piece in process that had not completed the edits and i had i finished somehow finished editing a piece on Mexican politics.
21:30I don't know how I did that. And then, and then the Ringo article, well, my show, I'll tell my story. Um, uh, so as you'll remember in those early months, I didn't sleep very well. I still don't. Um, I, I would wake up every night around the same time, around the time Miranda died. Um, and I would wander the house and I sometimes go into the room that had been her old bedroom and I would sleep there, or I'd sometimes coming to where I'm sitting now, my office. And I remember one of those occasions, I was in the office and Ringo followed me. He was living with us and sleeping in our room. He always preferred to be with you, but sometimes he would just...
22:05Well, you were, as Miranda once said, assistant number two. And in your article you quote her as saying, Dad, he loves you. He just doesn't respect you. So Ringo didn't have a lot of respect for you. That was true. So I'm sitting here in this very chair, which wasn't then set up as a studio. And there's a chair over in that corner, a red plush chair. And Ringo hopped on that. He began staring at me in this kind of quizzical way. And I would stare back at him. And then I began thinking about my relationship with this. I think I started writing it that night at about three in the morning. And I finished the first draft at about noon or 2 p.m.
22:46the next day. But what I wanted to say, not to just to rehash my story, was to say that the difference between the Ringo article and your book was, and maybe this is the difference between our psychologies or fathers and mothers, is I approach a difficult topic very obliquely. I mean, 80 % of the words in the article are about Ringo, or 60%. Whereas you here really look at the sun. You stare fixedly at the sun and you report, you just, you don't avert your eyes. There's no blushing. There's no obliqueness. It's right there. I think that's one of the reasons that people find that article so, your book so courageous as compared to my sort of oblique stepping, avoiding a lot of difficult things article.
23:26So you look at the sun and you tell us what the sun looks like. Well, as you remember, when I first started writing this, and I was writing it separate from like a journal or something. It was a, I don't know who I was writing to or for, but it was that journalistic instinct that I need to record this and report on this. I originally did not want to put Miranda in it because I just felt I wouldn't be able to capture her. I thought I could keep the lens very tightly focused on grief, maternal grief, what it's like. And I just, I didn't have the confidence I could ever capture everything that she was, which, by the way, you did in your Ringo article.
24:14You say it was oblique, but Miranda was just so alive and vibrant and witty as she was in life. And then I showed it to one of my early editors, and she wrote back, and she said, you have to put Miranda in this. I need to know about Miranda. So I did, and I started weaving her in. But when you talk about staring into the sun, I mean, how do you describe your child, this person you've known and has been so embedded in your life for 32 years? How do you have any perspective or objectivity? And this was the first thing I ever have written where I had literally no editorial perspective on it. And I remember showing it to you in one of the earlier drafts and saying, should I keep going?
25:19I want this to be worthy of her. I want this to be worthy of the experience. And if it's not, I don't want to publish it. And you said, no, no, keep going, keep going. Well, the reason I mentioned the Christopher Hitchens anecdote that I love so much in the introduction is you are a very, or you were, you are a very funny person. And comedy is your natural gift. in every one of your previous books, articles, there's always a comic sensibility, even when the subject matter is not so comic. There's always a comic sensibility there. And you see the absurdity in situations, and you create humor, you create laughter.
26:04And what was from my ringside seat of the writing process, there are even funny lines in Dispatches for Brief, but it's not ultimately, it's a different kind of thing. But what was interesting to me watching it, And you and I, we always added each other's material. And we're pretty direct, especially you. No, I'm really tactful. Yeah. We don't spare it. But as I watched this thing, it was like watching a gothic cathedral go up. It just got thicker and richer with each rewriting and with more. And it got a little bit longer. It's still quite a short book. But the density and intensification and tragedy, which was not your previous usual idiom.
26:52And that was what came to life as you kept going. And the book became finished when it reached its emotional crescendo, not when it became longer and packed full of details. It remains a very short and very spare book. Yeah, I do. There are some inevitably comic scenes. And I now think of them as like, you know, the drunken knights or guardsmen in a very tragic Shakespeare play where everything is so dark. And then Shapesier realizes, okay, we need a little comic relief here. And when you're in our situation, you know, sometimes things happen that are so awful or somebody says something that is so insensitive, it's actually funny.
27:44There's like nothing you can do but laugh at it. And one of the scenes in the book was when, and as you know, there are so many tasks associated with anyone who dies. And it's especially searing when it's your child and you have to go through their room and go through their belongings. And she had an apartment that had been sealed up and we had to, our youngest daughter, Bea, came with me amazingly. She's been incredibly stoic. And we went up to Brooklyn with the goal of tidying her apartment before we got ready to really pack it up and sell it. And so we arrived at the hotel the night before we were going to do this.
28:30And both of us were just so upset and nervous about the next day. And we walk into the hotel. and there's the front desk guy and he goes why hello ladies what you know got any great plans while you're here and B and I are just like stupefied we haven't even it's so early we haven't even figured out how to deal with people who do this and and of course you know maybe we did have great plans but but B very quickly said no um we're we're not really here for that And he said, business, pleasure, not really either of those. But he kept, as you said, that other person, he kept pushing. What about a show?
29:21We're like, no, we're not going to a show. And finally, as you say, you get pushed into the corner. and I said, well, actually, we're here. My daughter died and we're here to clear out her apartment tomorrow. And the grin didn't vanish. It just, he said, oh, oh, what was your daughter's name? And I said, Miranda. And he goes, well, at least Miranda's in a better place now. Am I right? And I looked at him and I said, well, she was in a pretty good place. I mean, she had a very nice one bedroom apartment, you know, in Brooklyn Heights. And, you know, in New York, David, of course, people understand real estate.
30:09And I said, I think she was pretty happy there. And he went, oh, well, yes, yes, I can see that. Well, would you like, can I send you a bottle of champagne? And he said, well, we're not really celebrating. And I said, yeah, you know what? Send us a bottle of white wine. We could use that. And he goes, okay, it's on your way. But I mean, he wasn't even flustered, which was kind of impressive. And it did make us laugh despite of the grim task we were facing the next day. So you're going to do a lot of podcasts and you're going to answer many similar questions. And I'm trying, as I was trying to think, how could I do something worthy of you and worthy of this book?
30:54And that one of the things maybe I can ask are some questions that, um, normal interviewers would, would be embarrassed to ask. So can I ask you about survival, um, and how you survive as a mother, how we survive as a family? Um, can we talk about that a little bit um you mentioned the tasks you had a extraordinary number of terrible tasks including planning a grave site how how is it you stayed in the land of the living yourself well as you know i didn't stay in the land of the living for a while um and i often think and this might again be a question for you too. I mean, we were lucky to have a strong underlying marriage.
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31:41I don't know what would have happened if we didn't. I think it's very common that marriages don't survive this type of tragedy. I sometimes think if there was any sort of blame to the other person, you know, even if it's not fair, well, you know, why didn't you do this or why didn't you do that? That I don't think a marriage could ever overcome. But you were, as I was writhing, and even at one point, as you know, quite suicidal. Not that I was going to act on the suicide, but I remember feeling very strongly that I'd rather be dead than enduring this pain that I was enduring. And as a mother, that's like a terrible thought to have because in some way you're rationalizing that you're willing to leave your living children, your husband, because you can't withstand the pain or going on anymore.
32:57And it was really you and your strength that you just, my impulse was to, yeah, crawl under the bed and just stay there and cry. And you were the one who kept tugging me back to earth, tugging me back to life. And you said at one point, and this is in the book as well, that you said, we can't let ourselves go into our own silos of grief. And that was very true because, you know, you grieve differently from how I grieved, of course, Nat, our son, Bea, our daughter. They were in their own world that had been exploded because they were all very close as siblings. And meanwhile, their parents, or certainly I, was suddenly, as their mother, not able to comfort them, which was also made me feel terrible.
34:01I was just, and they had to watch us cry. I remember Bea, she wrote some things down from the time, which I quote in the book, and she remembers, I think, that first night or two after Miranda died, and you went into her old bedroom, and Bea could hear your wails through the wall. And how upsetting that has to be for children to see these strong parents whom you've always relied on to take care of things. Suddenly, they're not. They can't. So, we all went through a period of, I guess, silos and just trying to cope. But you really were the force that kept pulling me back at one point. And it got so crazy that at one point, you know, I'm apologizing for being so crazy.
35:01I'm just sobbing and sobbing. You were holding me. And I said, I'm so sorry, David. You must think I'm insane, but I can't help it. And you said, and you just helped me. and you said, my God, Danielle, you're a mother who's lost a child. How could you feel differently? But you also, you were probably, I was like physically silo prone, but you were more intellectually or mentally silo prone. And as you said, the way you experienced it was to get up in the night to be by yourself. um i wrote in the book that you are able to retreat into the vast chambers of your of your mind as your listeners will understand you can you could spend days in there you know pulling books out coming up with ideas but that i think that that risk leaving a um i mean to be a false impression and to be candid about it i i had a an immense dimension that you happily and mercifully didn't have, which is I always had a lot of guilt, um, because Miranda and I were very similar people, willful, not inclined to listen to others.
36:20Um, really not inclined to listen to others. Sure, we're right. Uh, most especially sure we're right when we're completely wrong. Um, and, uh, so as a result of that, she and I had had a lot of conflict, um, over the time. And, um, and in some of the cases, it was inevitable and I was right, but some of it was just the habit of conflict means that something comes up and with a different personality, you would have resolved it in a much less acrimonious way, but it would become acrimonious. And so I just, those scenes of conflict would play in my mind. And that's what I was. I wasn't going through the works of Thomas Aquinas in the brain.
37:02And I was just going through, you know, scenes where, you know, why did I handle it this way? Why didn't I say yes? I could have said yes. And, and as I said, there were, and the ways I had to come through all of that was by saying, you know what, well, maybe that, that's, that was just inevitable. There was no way, just given her nature and mine, there was no way we were not going to have these conflicts. And some of the conflicts, some of them I was right. Like Miranda was quite. Willful. Willful. And some of them I was right. And some of them I was maybe wrong, but unless you had foreknowledge of how the story was going, any parent would have been wrong the same way that I was wrong.
37:42But I did have those strong feelings of, boy, I should have said yes to that. I should have said yes to that. I should have said yes to it. But, you know, every parent has that. And look, Miranda, she was our first child. Practice child. Sorry? You get one to practice on. Yeah. And look, she was a wonderful, magical little girl. But she was willful. And what began as sort of being willful in nursery school, you know, where it's scissor time, everybody. And Miranda's like, nope, I'm going to keep with the costumes, you know. And she wouldn't do it angrily. She'd just be utterly indifferent to what others were doing.
38:29Wow. What would it be like to live with such a person? I don't know, David. You're always so, you know, accepting of authority. Anyway, so she, so, but that became through adolescence. And I wrote about this because the other thing that I think is important in remembering someone, anyone who has died, is not to deify them. Like, it's good, obviously, to remember their good qualities. But if you try and turn them into some sort of saint and forget who they were, then I think they cease to be alive within you. And I do tell part of this story of Miranda just, you know, I think I started taking Soloft when she was 16.
39:17She was just, our hair would stand on end with things she would get up to. uh and and and yeah i mean her younger siblings would like almost in admiration watch as we you know stripped her phone from her her computer grounded her locked her in her room and she's just like i don't care i'm fine and and so it was she was not the easiest child to parent but as she got older and she got through that period and as you remember we had to ship her up to my parents so she could finish high school uh it had just been the tension had gotten so difficult we also ran out of high schools in the dc because she was like she was brilliant but if she didn't care about something like uh math then why should she care?
40:14Or attendance. Attendance was optional. She had so many better things to do. So it got, yeah, and in this weird competitive academic world of D.C., the hothouse of D.C. schools that we, anyway, we were from Toronto. Our parents were in Toronto, and the schools there were much more forgiving and she went to a wonderful school there. And somehow they dragged her kicking and screaming and got her graduated. But so that was a very, very difficult time. And I, for years, had guilt, my own guilt, that we had to ship her up to my parents who could manage her much better than we could. And I, but she came through that.
41:06And when she was like, I don't know what, 20, 21 or two, And we all suddenly became very, very, very close. And I had the opportunity, and I think you did too, to – I actually like apologized to her for that. I said, I just can't tell you how much that haunts me that we felt we had to do that. And she started to refer to that time as, she would say, well, back when I was being an asshole. So I think she recognized the difficulty that we faced. But she also said, no, mom, I made my best friends at that school. And they were friends who stayed with her all the way through. and she didn't hold that against us and I felt by the time she died, I mean, we had become so close.
42:11She was really like a best friend and she was a best friend to you. I mean, you guys had, you were so similar in personality, which probably was some of the origins of your clashes is that you guys would just sit together. You shared a humor and a wit. We talked about it. We had family grammars of jokes. Nathaniel, you thought Nathaniel was funny, and Miranda and I would roll our eyes because his humor is sometimes a little broad. A little cruder, if we may say, a little. And then Miranda and I would have our jokes, and you and Nathaniel would be like, I don't get it. I don't get it. But I loved listening to you guys laugh, like the laughter through the house of you, of the mutual recognition in each other and how much she admired you and how much she loved you.
43:08And we had a good at least 10 years of really intense closeness. And I felt that when she died, she knew how much we loved her. And we knew how much she loved us. And that, to me, has been a great source of comfort. It would have been horrible not to have been able to have those conversations. And it also, it was just so her to have the self-recognition that, you know, like the perspective, like, yeah, I was really causing you guys a lot of trouble, you know. Let me get us back on to. I don't want to turn this into a family therapy session. We have to be mindful that we are trying to be of service to other people who have their problems, as everyone does.
44:17So I want to keep to the theme of survival. We talked about you surviving as an individual person. I want to ask you about survival as a family. Because one of the things that sometimes you only understand after it's too late is that every family is kind of a jigsaw puzzle. and each person is a piece that binds, binds at best, binds or maybe doesn't bind, but how the pattern is only formed by the interaction of these personalities, two or three or four or five, six, seven, however many there are. And you may not even understand the function of a piece until that piece is removed. And one of the things that I think we both have heard from other families that we've talked to in this situation is they didn't understand exactly the role that the missing loved one played until the missing loved one was gone.
45:04And then there was a problem of, how did the other pieces now cohere? But when this piece of the puzzle is taken away and gone, and then the little holes don't connect anymore. Is there any advice you can offer about how families can put themselves together as a collectivity? yeah i mean i would say just so it seems less like self-therapy what we were just saying is that telling people that you love them working through and coming to resolutions you know even if god you know hopefully they won't die but having that kind of openness with each other especially parents to children about, you know, acknowledging mistakes, seeking that kind of understanding of each other is important.
46:04The part about the puzzle piece, it's more like a hole being blown open in a ship, you know? and people ask when I say, you know, I'm not the same person I was and I won't be the same person I was. I'm not a completely different person but I'm a different person because that Miranda played a role in our family that each of us had a relationship to her in a different way. we were each of us with her different than we were with anyone else and and so and now suddenly this very important puzzle piece or hole is blown is and you're a little bit at sea i mean you're trying at first you're just maybe a little under the sea you're like people in you know in life the water streaming in through the crack in the bulwark.
47:12Right, or you're floating with little ropes trying to stay connected to each other. So you do have to regroup. And one of the things Nat, our son, said early on, which has really, really stayed with me, is he said the worst thing we could do to Miranda's memory is have our family fall apart. And so I think everybody has to consciously work at staying together and readjusting to this new reality. So, you know, our children, Miranda, sorry, Bea and Nat, have to re-knit somehow their relationship in the absence of this older sister who was kind of their leader in all things through their whole lives.
48:09And we have to re-knit not just our relationship with each other, but also with our children in her absence, too. So it's something that just takes time, but I think it's something that takes real conscious effort. And we heard from so many families that, you know, in one case, the mother just went mute for 10 years, couldn't function again. And I think that's quite common. People don't get over this or through it. They're not able to re-knit for whatever reason. And one of the statistics I've discovered is that the mortality rate for parents and especially mothers go up within the five years after a child dies.
49:10and some of that is suicide. They just commit suicide. Some of that is addiction. I can well imagine, you know, becoming an alcoholic or a heroin addict. Or they just, if you just become more, you care less about yourself. You don't take care of yourself as much. I remember I got quite clumsy. You're very distracted. It's very easy to get into a car accident. Your body is not functioning the way it was. And I think that's the other interesting part or aspect of grief. It's not just this emotional thing. It's not just, as I mentioned, the physical pain, but your whole nervous system is thrown. And so you're just, you get mental fog, you get very forgetful.
50:07So many aspects of grief take over you physically in ways that are unexpected and you're often not even aware of. Before we get to the last things I want to ask you about, um i i do have a piece of advice uh which uh i'll insert here um which is to hazard a sex-based generalization i think it is easier for fathers for men for fathers to escape trouble emotional trouble into busyness than it is for women um and if a loss like this befalls you in your the active part of your life that one escape route for the man, for the father is just rededicate himself to work. And you can rationalize that because you're supporting your family and you don't want to, you can double down on your provider role, maybe even achieve even greater success as a provider because of your ever more intent, you're now much more single-minded focus on work because of your desire to escape all the parts of your life that look so horrible when you're not at work.
51:12And I know for me, the one time when I'm completely at peace is when I'm working on a difficult piece of journalism, where I'm researching something. And then I will have days where I'm thinking about nothing except the topic at hand. The more obscure, the better. I wrote a big article about cryptocurrency regulation. That was a real respite. I spent a week thinking about nothing but about the regulation of stable coins. And the hazard, if you're the man doing that. It's very easy and tempting to forget that for the mother and the woman, it's probably going to be a lot harder to do that. And when you're escaping your troubles, you're also at risk of escaping her.
51:52And so one of the things that I think we've made a real effort to do is spend more time together. I don't go to conferences anymore. There's just a lot of things I don't do. And I know that means I'm underfoot at lunch, which can be annoying. I love having lunch with you. but you have to stay close together. And, and the man in particular, the father has to defeat his impulse to escape into work, which is, um, and I've, again, a number of our acquaintances who have been in the situation, you can hear that that has been implicitly or explicitly the man's resolution and understandable, helpful, powerful, but potentially dangerous.
52:31Well, also, and to put it in slightly more modern terms, I mean, the mother can be working full time too. In my case, because I work from home and because I was a writer, I didn't have the discipline of having to show up at an office. And in some ways, I envied you for that because it left me too stranded with my thoughts and my grief. and as you remember after this happened even the hobbies I had like gardening or playing the piano or whatever I just couldn't do anymore, I just stopped everything stopped for me and I probably could have used a job maybe at some point to bring me out of myself but I think in general you're right that if it's not the father putting himself into work, it's his playing golf.
53:38Maybe men are just better at compartmentalizing and escaping this kind of thing. Let me ask you two things about things I know that you have been working on since the finishing, the completion of the book. One is an article you recently published in the Wall Street Journal about the electronic afterlife. Could you just walk us through that article and what you discovered about the electronic afterlife? The digital haunting. I write about this in the book too, that in this digital age that we live in, it used to be if someone died, you could pack away their belongings. You could, you know, they had boxes of letters and things.
54:19You could file, you could do whatever. but photo albums that you would have put on the shelf put photo albums that you would put on the shelf now everywhere you are trailed by these digital reminders um and so i'll be and and this was especially true early on but it it still throws me you know you'll pick up your phone and And there's Facebook helpfully curating what you were doing in 2018 with Miranda. Or here's our furry friends, Miranda and Ringo. And it's just in your face. And I call them emotional IEDs. It's just suddenly you're just going about your day and there's an explosion. And you're just like reeling.
55:06And in that sense, our digital lives outlive our physical lives. And there are things like our car. My car still wants, asked me if I want to connect to Miranda's iPhone. It pops up. She's on my list of phone favorites. And I could in many ways. Some you can't avoid. I don't know how you would disable Facebook memories, but I guess just leave Facebook. But the other things also require a conscious act of erasure that I haven't been ready to do. Like, I don't want to swipe her name, erase her name from my list of favorites. I probably should disconnect her phone from our car. But again, it's a conscious act that you're reminding yourself she's no longer here and never will be.
56:00And that's just a kind of decisions and assault you get, I don't know, 10 times a day that you're faced with. But meanwhile, these same companies that say, here, here, here, here, you know, here you are with Miranda and Ringo happily on the beach together. At the same time, they hoard data and make it almost impossible to get things that you would want. And you wrote about this, about how the struggles we went through to get access to some of her digital files. Yeah, basically, if you don't know. The different companies you have to deal with. Yeah, if you don't know their password, which we didn't, we tried, they will not give you access to their data.
56:40This was a side you handled, which I was grateful for. It's legal issues. They won't let you get access to her computer. They won't let you get access to any of her data. They won't let you get access to her, nothing. Eventually, through the court order, we got access to her photos. This is, by the way, a thing that, this is some useful advice maybe for others. Apple is more accessible than any of the other companies. It's not that it's so accessible. They still treat you like some prurient hacker trying to. Right. Right. But you can. But I had to go to court, get a court order. And it had to be written a certain way.
57:19Apple with Apple doesn't like the language. They won't comply with it. That said, we want her, the photos that are stored on her iCloud. And that took months. It wasn't free. And tell them the punchline to the story. Well, a lot of the photos were of Ringo. I paid on thousands of dollars to get these pictures. And I love Ringo. But we have pictures. And he was very cute. We have ample photos of Ringo already. And now here are a whole lot more. They weren't all good pictures either. But we still also. There's some that we're very grateful to have. We couldn't. And what was also frustrating is they could so easily open her phone.
58:02and they wouldn't, again, they wouldn't open her phone. And, you know, in the end, like, what do we care? What are we really looking for in her devices aside from photos? And, you know, did she do any writings? I'm not interested in going through her personal emails or whatever. But one of the things I wanted to know is, did when she died so suddenly, did she try to call 911? Did she reach out to anybody? And in the end, well, what does it matter whether I know that or not? You know, it's not going to bring her back. But, you know, just as a mother, you kind of want to know. um and uh so yeah there'll just be things we won't know and so i have her devices and maybe one day there'll be a way to open them but yeah we can't um and it's a real problem i've actually received since that article was published uh emails from other parents who are are going through the same thing.
59:15Yeah. My advice to anyone is when you make sure you have in your someplace visible, unlocked on paper, not in digital form, a letter that tells your loved ones all your passwords, where all your bank accounts are, the name of every advisor you have, it is so impossible if you don't. It's such a nightmare. Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you about, and I know this is something that's a work in progress, so I don't want to make you say more about it than you can. But look, American culture is a problem-solving culture, which is great. And whatever your problem is, there's someone who is eager to advise you on how to overcome it.
59:54And there are people who want to help you with the problem of how you can turn your grief to benefit. And I know you've been thinking a little bit about this. I don't want to ask you to say more than you care to say, but can you tell us a little bit about the grief industry and your perspective on it? No, and I do write about it in the book as well. I call them these happiness hucksters. I mean, these are the people who go to TED Talks, run retreats, write articles about how basically the worst thing that can possibly happen to you is an opportunity for personal growth. And it's just baffling to me that – what you discover, of course, is these people have never suffered anything worse than losing a job or something.
1:00:44But there really is a whole industry out there trying to – and look, I get it. It's a very elaborate way of saying very basic, ordinary things like, yes, you can learn from your failure. You know, if you come from hardship, you can overcome it. We take lessons from life. And look, there are lessons we've taken from suffering. But the gist is that that's going to make us better people. And that implies that, well, you know, it was really good for me that Miranda died because I've just really grown as a person. And honestly, I just want to punch those people in the face. I just, like, go away. But, yes, it is amazing.
1:01:43And people will actually say those kinds of things to your face. Yeah. And they'll say, you know, well, what gifts have you taken away from this? And, like, this is a very unreturnable gift. But I will say I've come to think of gifts are gifts that Miranda has given me. and when someone dies I think it's very normal to absorb them into you and and in this case like their best qualities and knowing that Miranda was such a connector in life such a booster of friends I find myself doing the things that I think she would have done. And that has made me a better person. I have more empathy. She always had this ability to see into people and figure out exactly who they were.
1:02:55and she often attracted people who were sad, people who did have real struggles and she befriended them and helped them. She was a deeply empathetic person that way and so that's one of the things I'm trying to learn and perform on her behalf. So, you know, and of course since this happened to us, You can no longer walk around smugly thinking, well, this couldn't possibly happen to me. That sort of thing happens to other people. So that's very humbling. But it's not something that I think is going to make me a greater success in life. Yeah. Well, the book is beautiful. and I hope it will bring comfort to people who need comfort, understanding to people who need understanding or want understanding.
1:03:57And it certainly brought, the act of doing it has brought extraordinary purpose to you at a time when you needed it. So that was Miranda's wonderful gift. That was Miranda's other gift. Do you realize that I was thinking that with your Ringo article And with this book, I feel she was the impetus to get us back writing. And through the process of this book and promoting it, which is a weird thing to have to do because you have to talk over and over about this thing you really don't want to talk over and over about. but I've felt she's pulled me back into the world and she's made it possible, I think, for me to write again and write other things, not just about grief.
1:04:48And the connections that we have made with other people in our situation, I can almost hear Miranda in my head saying, mom, you've got to meet this woman. She's fabulous. And she also lost a daughter. Like you can, it's like she's, her invisible hand has been forming these connections, urging us, and especially me, to rejoin the world and the living. And I feel that all the time from her. Let's stop there. Thanks, Danielle. Thank you, darling. Thank you for having me on. I know that's, it's a big honor to be on the table from her. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
1:06:02We'll see you next time. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. A few months ago, I invited Atlantic staff writer, Charlie Worzel onto the David Frum Show. As podcast hosts, we talked about the pressures and temptations of the medium. Outrage often gets rewarded. Nuance does not. Charlie doesn't take that bait. On his show, Galaxy Brain, he covers the ways technology is changing how we think and how we live. Not just the obvious stuff, but the subtle ways it shapes what we believe, how we talk to each other, how we see ourselves and our neighbors. If you've ever wondered how smart people end up believing implausible things online, Galaxy Brain is worth your time.
1:06:43It's thoughtful, surprising, and a little unsettling in the very best way. Find it wherever you listen or watch.
1:06:56Thanks so much to my wife, Danielle Crittenden-Fram, for joining me today on The David Frum Show. Thanks to her for her candor and courage in discussing her beautiful but very difficult book, Dispatches from Grief, A Mother's Journey Through the Unthinkable. As I mentioned, because of the sensitivity of this topic and the personal nature and the toll it's taken on both of us, I'm not going to add a book discussion this week. There'll be one next week. Thank you for watching and listening. Thanks for joining me on The David Frum Show. As ever, the best way to support this program is by subscribing to The Atlantic.
1:07:28That way you can get the work of me and all of my colleagues at The Atlantic. And please like and share this on whatever platform you use. That helps a lot to get the message of the show to people who might benefit from hearing it. Thanks so much. See you next week here on The David Fromm Show.
1:08:03This episode of The David Fromm Show was produced by Nathaniel Fromm and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew Edwards. Claudine Abad is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Logging off, rebuilding our attention spans, Trading in smartphones for dumb phones. Why are people trying to get off their screens? And what are they really after? I'm Natalie Brennan, a producer at The Atlantic. And I'm Julie Beck, a staff writer at The Atlantic. This season, we're exploring the often fraught, always changing relationship people have with technology.
1:08:44And examining the ways our devices affect our connection with one another. New episodes of How to Touch Grass come out every Monday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
From the publisher
In this episode of “The David Frum Show,” David is joined by his wife, the writer Danielle Crittenden, to discuss her new memoir, “Dispatches From Grief,” and the loss of their daughter Miranda.
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