Ireland’s American Problem: The Jockey, the Horses, and the End of the Easy Money Era

0:00David McWilliams: In a couple of minutes, we have a podcast about what Ireland is going to do in this new global world. If America and Europe fall out, what is going to happen to Ireland? Because Ireland is the most Americanized economy in the European Union. That is all coming up in a couple of minutes.

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1:13To understand the economy, you have to understand human nature. This podcast is powered by Acast.

1:26How you doing there?

1:28David McWilliams: Welcome to the podcast. Today we are going to try and interpret world events through a very self-indulgent Hibernian eyes and see what does it all mean for Ireland? This great global superpower in which we live. But this great global superpower is the world's most open economy. It is one of the economies that has benefited most from Pax Americana. It is, in effect, an American adjacent economy moored off the coast of Europe. It is a bridgehead for American companies into Europe. That has not always made us friends in high places within Europe, as most clearly evidenced by the Apple tax decision on behalf of the European Commission in the European Court of Justice, which suggested that Ireland is involved in tax jiggery-pokery facilitated by our legal system and enriching not just the shareholders of American companies, but our own taxpayers here.

2:44David McWilliams: So we do stand in the dock slightly indicted, but I want to explain what it seems to me is going on with respect to what Sonny Kapoor said on Tuesday. If you haven't listened to that podcast, I advise you to listen to the podcast of Tuesday with Sonny Kapoor, and then this podcast today will make a little bit more sense. The main idea that Sonny came up with was that there has been an extraordinary concentration of risk in the United States in the last 20 or 30 years. That concentration of risk has had two effects, one of which it makes the world starved of capital, capital that's going to America.

3:31David McWilliams: That's the first thing. So it has been bad for the world. The second thing is it has been good for America and American adjacent countries, one of which is Ireland. And if this is all coming to an end, as Sonny suggests, and I think it makes logical and rational sense, that the world will diversify away from America, not because America has suddenly become bad, but because it's only a small amount of the world's population and therefore it can only deliver a small amount of the world's growth and innovation. Why? Because there's other stuff going on in other parts of the world. If that were the case, what happens here in Ireland?

4:12And we're going to end, John, with a Schumpterian piece of optimism of what we can do here. Oh, thank God there's a bit of optimism. Jeez. How are you, Ed? I'm good. I wasn't sure what to make of that there. You know, the clouds, are coming in again. Again. Again. The clouds are very low. They're very low. They're very low. It gets dark around four o 'clock in the afternoon. It's very damp. You want a pair of good shoes. Yeah. We're going to talk about Ireland, John. Yeah, so it's interesting based on, as you're saying, what Sonny Kapoor was saying, that if capital is moving away from the States because it's becoming more risky, where does it go?

4:56And you know, is this something that Ireland will lose out on, or actually is it an opportunity?

5:02David McWilliams: Well, that's what we're going to talk about. The entire podcast is going to be about whether or not it's an opportunity or whether it's a loss. It's an opportunity if we think it's going to be a deadweight loss if we don't think. So let's look at the facts and figures, right? Well, we need to turn it into an opportunity. Yes. We need to take the steps necessary. Yeah, and it's not that difficult to do, but again, we have to jettison a way of thinking in Ireland. about money and finance and economics, and use the last of the American windfall to recreate something magnificent here. And I'm going to explain to you how we can do this.

5:42So Irish policymakers fear one major thing, and that major thing is having to make a choice

5:52David McWilliams: between Europe and America. This is not the case for policymakers. anywhere else in Europe, with the exception of the Baltics and the likes of Poland, but for very different reasons. The reasons the Baltics and Poland do not want Europe to separate from America is that right now, American military hardware, American intelligence, American know-how, American guns, in effect, keep them secure against Russia. We don't have that concern because our neighbours are fish, which are very law-abiding creatures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we don't have that. In fact, a big debate in Ireland is not only do we not have an external enemy, but in fact, we're not prepared, even if we had an external enemy.

6:40Yeah, well, that might be a bit naive, though, to think that we don't have an external enemy as such. But that external, the threat to Ireland is not military. Yet.

6:51David McWilliams: Oh, look at the fuck. It's my neocon over here. Paul Wolfowitz looking at me. It's Mr. Rumsfeld over here. I'm just looking at all those Russian ships, you know, parking up off the coast of Clare and Galway and stuff. Look, a couple of Russian ships we can deal with in a Roger Casement-esque revolutionary moment, right? But if you're sitting in Lithuania, you've a totally different and acute fear. Fair point, fair point. So our threat isn't military. The threat to Ireland is financial. and it is the gradual disappearance of the windfall that is a corporate America. So if America and Europe separate, if, for example, and I really do think that there is no way in which this spat between Europe and America is over.

7:39David McWilliams: I think the Americans have come back looking for more. We see the way they insulted Europeans. We see what they think of us. the MAGA movement has decided that Europe is its number one enemy. And what you see is a very, very undiplomatic, high-handed approach. You know, Trump said, you know, you'd be speaking German, not realising that everyone in the audience was Swiss. They do speak German. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, what's the problem with speaking German? His grandfather's German. Yes, yeah. Anyway, so the point is... But also the UK is starved of capital as well. Completely. So this could be a big boon for them.

8:22David McWilliams: Well, the UK is the major recipient of American capital over and above us. It's much greater than us, but per head it's much less. But you're absolutely right. I mean, if money were to flow out of America, it's good for everybody. But let's just frame it. So what we have is within Europe, Ireland and the Baltics have most to lose. by America separation for the European Union. The Baltics, their real fear is sovereignty. Our fear is prosperity. Yeah. That's the first thing. The second thing is the chances of this happening are still very high because the United States administration doesn't like Europe.

9:04And after last week, the Europeans have realized they cannot depend on America. So there has to be a plan B. and also Europe basically said to Trump last week, no, you can't have Greenland. And in effect, all he's going to get is a sort of a Guantanamo Bay sort of arrangement of an American base up there, right? But this is the beginning of a process of divorce between Europe and America. Can I just ask you, though, you know you're saying that this grand bargain is broken, But are you also saying then that if Trump is voted out in the next election, I know that's three years time, and a Democratic president comes in, is that too late then to switch back?

9:52Do we want to switch back? Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, the... Or is it possible to switch back?

9:57David McWilliams: the sort of backroom diplomats would suggest that. They're saying, look, hold on, bide your time. Don't rock the boat. This fella might croak it. He's gone. The MAGA movement may well disappear as a movement. And the Democratic Party, whatever iteration they come back in, is going to be more pro the grand bargain, the Atlantic Alliance. But I think there is a real understanding now in Europe that we cannot depend on America. It's too erratic a partner in a dangerous world. Even Gavin Newsom, who was knocking around with his fine head of hair, very toned body, he was calling the Europeans pathetic too.

10:42So there is a chorus line, let's say,

10:47David McWilliams: that has been sung on both sides of the house in America. So was Zelensky actually recently. Which was, I think, pretty dumb of Zelensky. But let's leave all that. Let's come back to Ireland, right? Let's come back. So Ireland is the most Americanized economy outside of America in the world. That's the first thing. And that has been a policy choice. I've always said that Ireland is, and again, if I've overused this metaphor, you can slap me down, the jockey riding two horses. That's the American horse and the European horse. Jockey's in the middle. As long as America and Europe are going the same direction, the jockey's position is reasonably tenable.

11:24David McWilliams: down in his nether regions is all okay. But if the two horses start to separate, which they are at the moment, the jockey's position gets very uncomfortable. We are that jockey right now. So the question then is, if there is a rupture and if that rupture happens quickly, what will the disproportionate impact on Ireland be? Because what you will see is that Ireland will have to make an alliance with the Baltics and Poland and East Europe because they also want America in Europe. But lots of people like the Germans and the French and now all the Scandinavians really don't give a shit. Like all the Scandinavians, because Denmark is the beating heart of Scandinavia.

12:10David McWilliams: It's part of the culture. All that's of Greenland, Iceland, Sweden. This is the, I know the Finns don't describe themselves as Scandinavian, but they are Nordic, the Danes, the Norwegians. This is their world. and their world has been completely upended. Yeah, yeah. So what you will see is that the Spaniards have no love loss with the Americans because the Spaniard's cultural hinterland is Latin America and Latin America has been besperched and degraded and humiliated by basically white Anglo-Saxon Americans, right? So there's lots of cultural stuff going on. So Ireland might find itself, the only alliance we can have is with the Baltics and the East Europeans, particularly the Poles.

12:51David McWilliams: that's not where we want to be Ireland always wants to be part of the Atlantic Alliance without actually paying for it which is your point about having no military so what would happen? but just to give you some sense of the last 30 years although we have and we are politicians talk about being at the heart of Europe right? we are not I think there's a great matchmaker expression John from Listoon Barna. Right? Just in case. This is pre-dating apps. This is pre-dating apps. It's called Marry Me Now and the Love Will Come Later. Yeah. Right? Hey. Yeah, and unfortunately a lot of people ended up in marriages like that in the old days.

13:36We are in one of those marriages

13:37David McWilliams: with the European Union, right? So we touchmate you and I. That's clear. That's why we're down here in the basement talking to each other like two weirdos all the time. But the Marry Me Now the Love Will Come Later. I think that describes our relationship with the European Union really well. This is going to piss off and inflame many people in centres of power in Ireland, but just bear with me, right? The idea when we joined the European Union, the EEC as it was then in 1973, was that we'd become a more European society. And we would learn European languages, we'd become more French or Germanic, we would probably dispense with our British common law system, and we would make certain sacrifices in order to become more like them.

14:25Yeah. That's what the Europhiles wanted.

14:29David McWilliams: What has actually happened? And that's the marry me now, the love will come later idea. So we get into bed with the Europeans and the love will come later. And over time we'll become more European, okay? I'm just here for the rattle. Exactly. In effect, we are. The rattle. I don't know where to look, right? What has actually happened is we became more American. Yeah. The Americans weren't here in 1973. There was no American presence in Ireland. In fact, there was an Irish presence in America. But what has actually happened is we got into bed with the Europeans, but we had an affair with the Americans, right?

15:10And now we're having to make a choice. Dirty stuff out. Exactly, right? But we had an affair with the Americans, right? So we were all in with, don't worry, oh, European tax, we love it. And the minute we get a chance to drop the tax and get the Yanks in, we got them in. Oh, French, we love it. There's less people studying French now than there were in the 1970s. Really? German, we love it. Nobody speaks German here. Spanish, think about those cultural moments

15:40David McWilliams: that the Irish nation made some extensive choices about whether we were European in America. Every time there was a 50-50 choice, we went with the Yanks. Right, yeah, yeah. Now, this is very important. So, for example, we have been doing business with the Europeans. You say we're European. We have British common law. We haven't even changed our legal system. Yeah, but that's a small order, though. No, it's not. It should be part of what it means. You should really... It's like it's a revolutionary moment to say you're European, and we should be making these massive structural adjustments to society.

16:18So, for example, our transport system. You go to Europeans, what do the Europeans do they have? Very good, deep investment in public transport. We don't. Our education system is still, in effect, the British grammar school system that we inherited here. We've never made any changes to it. Linguistically, we remain almost monolingual as a nation. are pathetically monolingual as a nation when it comes to traveling abroad. Our tax system is entirely Anglo-American. It's nothing to do with the European system. Our energy system is entirely Anglo-American. It's burn, baby, burn. Yeah, yeah. No investment in nuclear, no investment in proper investment in hydroelectric or in recyclables on a massive thing.

17:06So, and all the while we're having an affair with the Yanks. so now if europe and america separate their most vulnerable country not just economically but culturally and socially for example when i explain to european friends of ours that our kids go on a thing called a j1 to america yeah they have no idea of this like really even british kids don't do this there's nothing similar in europe there's no cultural exchange the cultural exchange between Ireland and America is deep, it's familial, it's historical, it's cousins. You know, you reference your cousins in the States all the time. That's not happening with French people.

17:46That's not happening with Spanish people. That's not happening with German people. They don't have those familial bonds. So if there is a separation, we end up really suffering culturally. Yeah. Now, economically, the numbers are pretty, pretty stark. So let's just have a look, right?

18:07David McWilliams: A quarter of Ireland's total exports go to America. Okay. And almost half of our non-EU exports go to America. The next most exposed are Finland, Italy, and Germany, which have 11%, 10%, and 9 % of their total exports go into America respectively. Yeah. So we know that Ireland is completely exposed. In value terms, Ireland has, now this is extraordinary, right, a trade surplus with America of 51 billion euros a year. So we are selling them a huge amount. This is really nice for us at the moment. We are so aligned to the, I'll just give you a contrast. So Ireland has 26.6 % of our exports go to America.

19:00Contrast that with a country like Slovenia. It's 1.3 % of their exports. Right, okay. So East Europeans don't do business with the Americans. Yeah. We do loads of business. So when a push comes to shove, they're not going to be saying, oh, okay, America, their only reason to be pro-American is they're anti-Russian. Yeah. But just think about the network of multinationals that exist here, right? Some 900 billion of Ireland's inward investment. That's about three quarters of the whole amount is US-owned. It's nearly a trillion dollars of investment here, right? Now, considering that Ireland represents less than 1 % of Europe's population, it's incredible that we host 17.5 % of total US investment in the entire bloc.

19:48Okay, wow. So we are getting 17 times more exposure to the United States, given our population. and in specific industries. Ireland accounts for 18 %

20:01David McWilliams: of all American manufacturing investment in Europe, yet we have less than 1 % of the population. And in chemicals, which I know you like a few chemicals. Only on Fridays. Exactly, to keep you going. Little buzzer over there in the corner, okay? Chemicals, we have 1 % of the population. We get 35 % of investment. in the US chemical and pharma sector. That's huge, right? So we can see that per capita, US investment in Ireland is about$90 ,000 per person. Wow. So this is enormous. That is a stat and a half. That is, like, so what I'm saying is, while we got into bed with the Europeans and got married, we were getting knocked up by the yanks all the time so much so that we're much closer to the americans so if the americans in the europe split we have a massive massive problem much more than anybody else because how do you replace that how do you actually change the way in which you position yourself.

21:19But is this not part of our USP, as it were? You know, even though there is this split now between Europe and America, that we could be that link, albeit tenuous, link between the two, that American companies will want to stay here to have some sort of access to Europe.

21:41David McWilliams: You're absolutely right. And that is our card that we can play, which is we are basically an American race. An American? Oh, half European, half American. Don't you like that? Or is it a Eurocan race? There is no American. Or you could just say we are the promiscuous partner of Europe. Right. We're quite happy. But the point is, we have most to lose from what is happening. Because the grand bargain we spoke about last week really suited small countries. And the reason is the following. And it's well worth putting this in mind because there's a lot of hagiography now about Mark Carney talking about middle-ranked countries getting together, right?

22:29For Irish people, middle-ranked countries are the countries that screwed us. it wasn't an America unipolar world that destroyed Ireland. It was a middle-ranking country now, the UK. Yeah. And middle-ranking countries like Germany, they destroyed the countries around them. Middle-ranking countries like France, they had massive colonies. They destroyed countries around them. They were fighting with everybody. I'm not sure that I want a world run by middle-ranking countries because historically their actual footprint has not been anything other than it crushes the people around them. The interesting thing about Pax Americana for us, you take Ireland, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, these countries have done extremely well under American hegemony because the Americans have allowed us to be at the top table without having the resources to earn us the right to be at the top table.

23:23Yeah. All those countries, Ireland, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, we were former colonies. we were bullied by the big guys around us the big middle-ranking countries so we've done very well out of this tax americana that's why i always think you know we should be careful what we wish for but when you say of the middle-ranking countries like and you say uk germany france they destroyed other countries around them because of that kind of old world approach to colonialism and imperialism and all the rest but we're in a different era now and that's not going to be the case. I'm not sure I think I think they have been house trained by the Americans right.

24:07David McWilliams: I really do I really do I think I think there is an imperialist urge in London, Berlin and Paris. It's still there and I think the grand bargain was basically a house training exercise for those middle-ranking imperial powers where the Americans said, you can't do this anymore. We have the big stick. And Germany, you can't do your little bits in Poland the way you're nice to do little Czechoslovakia. You can't be taking that sort of bit because that's their history. Yeah. Right? And they said, the Brits, you can't be knocking around the paddies. Think about even our peace process. Never have happened without the Yanks leaning on the Brits.

24:47That's very true, yeah. And no European came to help us there. Yeah. It was Americans lent on the Brits and said, Because for years and years, you know, the British said Northern Ireland is an internal British matter. That was their public stance on it. Until Clinton said, no, we'll lean on you. So what I'm saying is that it's a complex history. And it's a complex economic setup. And we, like lots of small countries, have done far better under Pax Americana, the unipolar world. because we don't have the same aspirations of grandeur. Okay. And the Americans allowed us to trade with them. The Americans invested, whether it was in Taiwan, whether it was in Ireland, whether it was Singapore, whether it was Korea.

25:33So that's all about to change. Okay, so it's all about to change. How should Ireland approach this change? You know, are we going to be, you know, stuck in the middle again? And could we be like the dating app between America and Europe? I don't know. But let's talk about that after.

25:54David McWilliams: Is it swipe right or left? I don't know. I don't know. All right. Talk to you in a sec.

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27:31Mac, as we've been talking, the world is changing. Yeah. And changing at a very fast clip. Yes. But this is going to throw up some opportunities and some challenges, particularly for Ireland. Yeah. So how should Ireland approach this next phase of, you know, economic history in order to survive? Yeah, well, we will survive.

27:54David McWilliams: But I mean, the first thing to do is appreciate that the framework we're using here is that massive overinvestment in America from the rest of the world in the last 20 years has had as an unintended consequence a brilliant positive spillover for Ireland. Why is that? It's because the American corporations that are throwing off huge tax surpluses in Ireland have had their own balance sheets bolstered by this disproportionate investment in the United States. So the very lack of diversification in the world has meant that, if you follow it, foreign money has come into America, it's found its way into American corporations, they are buoyed up by this, in effect, easy money, and then they have gone out and they have expanded in Europe through their operations in Ireland and they've thrown off enormous amounts of capital for us.

28:54Most clearly evidenced in around the 30 billion capital corporation tax

29:00David McWilliams: that we received last year, which is about 35 % of our total take, which should be only about 10 % if we were a normal European country. This is again a reflection of the affair we are having with the Americans. This is the upside of the affair. The downside of the fair is she might leave us. Yeah. Okay. But the upside is while she's hanging around, or he, depending on where you're. Yeah. Well, so America's the sugar daddy. The sugar daddy. Exactly. So that's the first thing. So we are not unrelated to what we talked about earlier and what Sonny talked about on Tuesday, is we have been a passive recipient of the largesse of the rest of the world through American corporations.

29:43David McWilliams: If that is to change, and I think Sonny is right, that will change, it will gradually lead to the, not drying up, but the diminishing of that American money. That's number one. So are we prepared for that, number two? The question is then, what do we do with this American money if it's going to run out? How do you prepare? How do you prepare? First thing is, if you know that's going to happen, the last thing to do is put your head in the sand and pretend that everything's going to be the same. That's exactly what the Irish state is doing. They are consistently saying the IDA got this amount of money and that amount of money, but they're not saying what you should do with it.

30:25Now, what I think, this is the Schumpterian idea. If we are moving into a world where we cannot depend on the sugar daddy,

30:35David McWilliams: Therefore, the question is, what do we do now with the sugar daddy's money? Now, all of Irish policymaking has affixed itself on this idea of having a pension fund for future generations. So the excess money, let's say 10 billion or 12 billion euros that's in the coffers, should be put into an investment fund in order to protect future generations, i.e. us and the coming generation. and pay our pensions. That's the first thing. And the second thing is what they're not doing is actually building infrastructure with that money. So rather than build infrastructure now, they are putting a disproportionate amount of money into this pension fund for future generations.

31:22David McWilliams: I think what we need to do is accelerate infrastructure right now, but also, and this is more importantly, have a startup fund. Yeah. Because the only thing that we know that generates economic growth is innovation, is new companies, new ideas, selling new products to new people. That's Schumpeter's gale of creative destruction. So the greatest gale of creative destruction that is now blowing our way is the fact that the Americans are gradually not going to be here, number one, if there's a political rupture. are they're going to be here, but not with the same financial and fiscal largesse. Why?

32:06Because the world is divesting from America and that will have an impact on the bottom line of American corporations and have an impact on our tax take. So if you take those two things, the golden age is over. Yeah. Right? It's either slowly over or it's quickly over. It's either gradual or it's immediate. It's either politically driven or it's market driven, but it's over. So the question is, what do we do now with the money? Because the money is still here. And I think is that a startup fund is what we need. And the way this works is very simple. The reason that Irish young entrepreneurs are leaving the country in their droves and can't get capital is because the banking system will not lend to them.

32:51And the reason the banking system will not lend to them is the banks have been traumatized by the previous crash, and bank managers are by definition very conservative. And what do they want to escape their conservatism? They want collateral. Typically in Ireland, the collateral that is given is property. But young people can't get their hands on property because it's already too expensive. So we need to figure out, is there another piece of public collateral that banks would take, which would de-risk the proposition of a startup here? And this is where this fund comes in. If, for example, the state creates a fund and into that fund goes the surplus cash from the corporate tax take today, all of it, not some of it, all of it.

33:43And then in five years' time or six years' time, every individual in Ireland has a stake in that fund because it's our money, a bit like an oil find. But rather than spend the money, we would say to, let's say, our kids or kids coming up or people who are like 12 years old now, 10 years old, when you get to 18, 19, 20, you will have a fund. And you can use that as collateral to give to the bank to de-risk your high-risk startup. And what you do then is you create the basis of a Shontarian entrepreneurial state here, where everyone has a vested interest in taking a commercial risk. This is the key.

34:29And you absolutely change the mindset of the people here. So you turn this country into this node of extreme self-reliant capitalism. because that's the only way you're going to grow. And actually changing that mindset could very easily be introduced early on in education.

34:51David McWilliams: In education. Just tweaking some of the syllabus to make more innovative, more forward-thinking, more entrepreneurial. Yeah, and reward people by saying, if you take a job, you will not have access to this fund. Yeah. So if you decide, I want to have no risk in my life, I want to be an employee, that's grand. That's fine, yeah. You do your thing, that's your choice. But we're not going to reward that behavior because we're actually trying to turn the society into something else, which is a small scale, small business, highly innovative society. And in that way, what you do is you actually future proof the society.

35:38David McWilliams: because you cannot put up walls and barriers to change. You have to go with it. And so what strikes me is that the wake-up call is now. Whether it comes from a Trump-inspired rupture, which will be orchestrated at Central European level, whether it comes from the gradual movement of capital out of America, both of which have profoundly negative ramifications for Ireland that has spent the last two decades riding on the coattails of the United States. That's the first thing. The second thing is we joined the European Union, but in effect, we did the marry me now and the love will come later. The love really hasn't come.

36:22It's not that nobody loves us. In fact, they do love us. It's a companionship. It's a partnership, John.

36:28David McWilliams: We haven't made those big sacrifices to become culturally more European. In fact, as we became deeper politically European in terms of plebiscites and in terms of voting, we were having an affair with the Americans. We became more American. So that promiscuity has basically done us extremely well. But it may have to change now. So how do we keep that American psychology, which is the innovative psychology, the business psychology, without the American money coming in? And what you do then is you spend some of the American money in a European way on public infrastructure, but you isolate a significant chunk of it for this Shumterian new startup culture.

37:16And if you can do that, you change the country. But what might make that a little bit easier, that transition, is the fact that given that America is splitting from Europe, Europe is getting a wake-up call and therefore it's changing its mindset. So it's becoming hopefully more innovative, more progressive, more forward thinking. And that would feed in nicely to this change of mindset that is needed in Ireland. Although I can imagine the bureaucracy attached to, you know, applying for those funds. Well, that's very interesting. Take the bureaucracy out. Yeah.

37:58David McWilliams: Let the people who are lending the money make the decision as to who gets it, rather than some layer of the department of... Yes, yeah, yeah. The department of giving the handout for the yankeemoney.com, right? It allowed the country to flourish because what we see in economic history is that places that kind of threw the cards in the air and gave people the sovereignty to do, to use that awful word you hear academics using, agency. yes right to do what they want to do in a commercial environment by de-risking their dreams by using the largesse of the american corporations you could profoundly change this country and this place could become and it already kind of became but it could become this sort of innovative locus for many european projects and many american projects don't worry Don't forget, you know, as money leaves America, lots of American capital and entrepreneurs themselves will want to go abroad.

39:09They want to invest somewhere else. They will say, okay, that's the way the world's going.

39:13David McWilliams: And again, if we get this flow of funds out of the United States over the next 10 years, countries and individuals and organizations that are open to accepting this money will do extremely well. And if we put the infrastructure in place that allows Ireland to use this opportunity, then there's nothing to worry about. But if we continue as we are, which is basically rewarding you and I for getting old, the pension fund, which is ridiculous, because that pension fund will be used for holidays abroad. It'll be used, it'll be saved, it'll be passed down to our kids, it'll be locked in. it'll be inert as opposed to dynamic if we do what we're doing now we will blow this particular opportunity and now's the time if a political party would sit down and figure out this is how the world works then there's nothing to worry about we'll talk to you next week

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