Who Wants to Live Forever? The Economics of Immortality, Tech Bros & Tír na nÓg

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1:22David McWilliams: To understand the economy, you have to understand human nature. This podcast is powered by Acast.

1:49We see things I'll never see. We will not go live forever.

1:58Go live forever.

2:02David McWilliams: All right, John, you're going through your oasis phase. I can see you with your parka. I can see you with your John Lennon shades and your 1995 haircut, your slightly Paul Weller-ish look. That's it, that's it. Live forever brings back amazing memories for our generation, it must be said. That's one of their best songs, actually. And we're going to be talking not all about Oasis because we've just about forgiven them for actually putting their name on a Bose jersey, not a Rover's jersey. Oh, I think that's brilliant. I know, but it's wrong team. Wrong team. But we're going to talk about living forever.

2:38David McWilliams: So Noel Gallagher obviously writes that when they're young fellas. Liam Gallagher must be about 22, 23 when he's singing that. We now know the biggest... Gwining that. But he's got an amazing voice. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the delivery. It's not so much the voice. It's just the delivery. It's the delivery. And it's the old mank thing. All that sort of stuff. And, of course, these are the big gigs of the summer. Of a summer of big gigs. I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. But the Oasis gigs are the big ones. Very expensive gigs. Well, that's when you're marketing to alphas who want to live forever.

3:10David McWilliams: Money pays. And that's what we're going to be talking about. Alphas who want to live forever. This is today's, the economics of not just Oasis, but the economics of living forever. Because, John, this is a real thing now, particularly in Silicon Valley. Apparently so, yeah, yeah. And it's these multi-billionaires, tech bros, that just have, I don't know, is it the money that they have that sends them a bit kind of bonkers? Is it these kind of childhood dreams that allows them, the money allows them to think? Like, look at Musk wanting to build rockets to go to Mars. And he's really serious about it.

3:47Bezos, well, he just wants to spin around the world and have big weddings and take over cities and that kind of stuff. But you know what I mean? It's all these billionaire guys who are just looking for something to spend their money on. I could give them a few ideas if they want to.

4:00David McWilliams: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. The John Davis charity, Benevolent Fund. But let's go back to, I like to think that Live Forever comes from the fact that the Gallagher family and Noel and Liam's mum is from Mayo. Yeah. And that lonely Liam's mum is steeped in Irish mythology. And basically it was all about Tiernan Oak, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember that story. Yeah, so Tiernan Oak. So let's go back. The idea is that humans have been, since time immemorial, John, trying to dodge death, right? And Musk and all those guys, but forget Musk, There's a whole different subsection of, as you say, tech billionaires who are now of the view that death is optional.

4:52Yes, yeah. The arrogance of that.

4:54David McWilliams: So, but let's think about it, right? So, Oisin, so let's go back. Oisin and Tirannog, one of the foundational myths of Irish legends. So, Oisin is taken in by a gorgeous redhead called Neve of the Golden Hare. Now, Niamh of the golden hair, for those of you who like Irish legends, is the beautiful daughter of a fella called Monon Mocleir. And Monon Mocleir is no other than the god of the sea in old Celtic mythology, right? But not only is she the daughter, John, of Monon Mocleir, so he's doing well, Arashin, he's moving upwards in this world. She has the extra quality of being the queen of her own place, which is Tyr Nanog, the land of eternal youth.

5:37David McWilliams: so when Niamh comes up starts flirting with Oisin says come with me darling Oisin says has a look at his mates who are in the Fiena okay the Crave Rua the actual band of knights who defended Ireland his dad think about it he's a band not only the Fiena his dad is Finn McCool imagine your alpha was Finn McCool yeah yeah you don't get better than that the man who created the Giants Causeway according to legend okay and of course off he goes with neave of the golden hair to tier na noog tier na noog o squeliga means the land tier na noog is youth John you remember the Tishul Gynaduct genitive case in Irish so og is youth na noog is the genitive case John of youth there were the details that kind of passed me by oh god almighty do you remember Irish grammar on Tishul Gynaduct I remember Irish college I was down there looking for my own Neve exactly, exactly, I've never seen a bunch of Neves run away so quickly anyway so poor old Oisin goes over to the land of eternal youth, he's hanging out with Neve of the golden air they're having a great time 300 years pass in real Irish life and time he thinks it's only 3 years in the land of eternal youth.

7:07David McWilliams: Everybody wants to be in the land of eternal youth. He looks great. He has an amazing horse. He has an amazing girlfriend stroke wife. He's hanging out. He decides to go back and see all his mates in Ireland after three years, or what he thinks is three years, is actually 300 years. He's on his horse where when he gets off the horse and touches Irish soil, he is transformed into a wizened old man of 300 years old. And of course, John, the moral of the story is you cannot cheat death. Exactly. We all age, we all die, we all get old. We gradually, there is a cycle, you get born, you become an adult, and then gradually you get weaker and you get old.

7:54David McWilliams: So the moral of the story is there is no such thing as Tyr and Oog in the real world. well as Elton John said beautifully it's the circle of life but there is another interpretation I didn't realise you were in Elton John you're displaying all sorts of eclecticism here, John is the rocket man there he is I sure am but there is another interpretation of the Oshin and Tyrion and Oog story you know that no I don't know that you're going to laugh at this of course but it comes from the ancient alien theory that Oisin didn't go to Tirannogh and it wasn't Niamh, or perhaps Niamh was an alien that abducted him.

8:39And he flew off. I love it. He flew off at the speed of light. And you know, in physics, if you fly at or close to the speed of light, time contracts. Your experience of time is totally different.

8:53David McWilliams: Yeah, okay, I get that. So he spun off around the universe, or whatever for three years, which in time-wise down on earth was the 300 years. So that's why he came back and was all confused going, where's everybody? Where's the lads? Where's me mates? Yeah, where's Naveena playing hurling? You know? Exactly. And that's what it was. So John, what you're saying is that basically old Irish mythology understood that we are but guests on this earth and there are aliens around and it's basically a UFO story. Absolutely. but that's what the De Danon were they were also UFO they were also aliens yeah yeah yeah and the Fear Bullock the Fear Bullock they were also aliens I love it like the Anunnaki in the Middle East I love when you smoke weed I haven't been smoking it's actually the wine here in France anyway we're going to talk about eternal youth very theories we started with Oasis and now lads Beltonet live forever in a field or in the middle of a stadium even though everyone's looking a little bit wizened.

9:58David McWilliams: And we're talking about Ushin and Tiranog. But the real thing, John, is there is a real industry out there of, as you say, tech bros, et cetera. And it's a modern movement. And the modern day Ushin is a fellow called Brian Johnson, right? Okay. And Brian Johnson is, he's a tech bro. I'll tell you all about him in a second, right? But he's kind of quite fascinating in a bizarre way, right? His aim is to engineer immortality. In 2021, he launched a thing called Blueprint, which is an obsessive sort of anti-aging regime, which will make his body function decades younger. He's subjecting himself to the craziest lifestyle, a vegan diet, 100-odd pills and supplements a day, strict sleep.

10:42David McWilliams: They believe that sleep is absolutely essential. Exercises, of course. Constantly medical. He's tested all the time, right? And his goal, John, is to reprogram. Okay, reprogram his body's aging process and prove that we may well be the first generation, or those guys anyway, not you and I given the state of us, the first generation not to die. Well, it seems like he's reprogramming himself into being the most boring person on earth. Oh, I know. Could you imagine? Imagine going out for a pint with this fella. I'll just have sparkling water, please. Yeah, yeah. I'll just have sparkling water and I'll talk about myself endlessly, right?

11:18David McWilliams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll just talk about it to me. So there's a certain amount of obviously crazy, crazy self-absorption. Not a certain amount, an absolute amount. But let's just talk to you about who this guy is, right? A tech entrepreneur. He's a longevity evangelist, right? Now, you and I might laugh at this, but this is a movement. So basically, he was a fintech guy. He bought a company called Venmo, which was a sort of an app, a little bit like Revolut. He bought it for$26 million in 2007. He sold it in 2013 to the tech giant PayPal. Now, who was one of the founders of PayPal? Your friend Elon Musk.

11:58David McWilliams: Back to your friend Musk again. And they acquired his company for 800 million. So he bought it for 26 million, sold it for 800 million. So he's now enormously wealthy. And then he decides, okay, I'm going to live forever. and he spends a reported $2 million per year of his own money in his routine. He tracks everything from his heart rate to the frequency of his nighttime erections. John, do you know that? No, because there's a whole movement in his pants. There's a huge movement in his pants. But there's a whole movement of tech bros not to ejaculate. What? It's called optimal longevity. And they believe it's diminishing of their energy i mean could you imagine anything worse right okay they're missing the trick what's like what's wrong with these people they're missing the only trick right okay but this is a whole thing this is a whole tech bro thing that they don't want to ejaculate because that gets rid of some energy something like this right okay right there he's also infused his own self with his teenage son's blood in a plasma a red blood plasma jesus and of course they're experimenting with gene therapy, right?

13:12David McWilliams: Now, he claims that he is slowing his aging process by about seven and a half months per year. So as you and I, it's actually not a great payoff for all this thing. For boring life, yeah. And blue bulbs. Stop, exactly. Exactly. Do you remember Buster Gonad in that particular video? Fizz. So Brian Johnson is the Buster Gonad of the tech world. But let's come back serious point, right? He has morphed his own personal idea of living forever into a fully-fledged community called Don't Die. And these people, John, there are thousands of people now, tens of thousands of people on online forums called Blueprint Discord.

14:02David McWilliams: There's Don't Die summits, which are, you know, wellness summits, evangelical fervor driven about genetic possibilities. we can slow down and reverse DNA triggering for aging. There's also, there's an Irish version of this, John, called longevitysummitdublin.com. Right. Where does that take place? In Tiernan Oak? Tiernan Oak, exactly. Tiernan Oak, it sounds like one of those estates built in the 1970s. Remember all the estates that's got the Irish names? Glenna Smoll, Tiernan Oak. But it's real, John. What I'm saying is there's a massive industry behind this. I just, the arrogance of it, for a start, But the amount of money, not only is it wrong, but it's immoral.

14:43The amount of money that's been plowed into something like this that could be redirected into curing diseases, curing cancer, you know, coming up with new innovation in food production. You know, there's so much that this money could be spent on. But here's the thing. There's a great quote from, and I can't remember what the film was, but it's about the three golden rules for older men. Tell us, John, because we need to abide by these very clearly. We need to abide by this. And this refers back to earlier. Never pass a toilet, never waste a hard-on, and never risk a fart.

15:22David McWilliams: Oh, Jesus. Okay. They're the golden rules. Thank you, John. You know, my day has been made immeasurably better by the understanding, the appreciation, the logging of those golden rules into my head, right? Okay. Let us move on. The podcast that brings you all sorts of stuff from the fact that tech boys don't ejaculate to the fact that John always does when he ever gets a chance. Anyway, let us move on. I'll tell you, this guy Johnson, you're right about the idea. But you mentioned something there that this money could go into, for example, a cure for cancer. Yes. Right? And it is the very, very increases in human life expectancy, which have occurred over the last, let's say, 100 years or 150 years, due to precisely what you're talking about, innovations in medical technology, innovations in medicine, innovations in lifestyle.

16:14David McWilliams: it's the very increase in our expectations of how long we're going to live which has actually triggered this particular movement. This is the interesting thing. So it is grounded in some idea. Like they're basically looking back and they're saying, okay, you know, humans used to die on average at 50. We now die on average at 85, I think, in Ireland. I think it's 83 for males, 85 for women. So that is a substantial increase in longevity. But that's as a result of this medical research into antibiotics and vaccines and also lifestyle as well. And, you know, in fairness, supplements, some supplements, you know, depending on the part of the world you live in and your diet and all this, are really important.

17:00And they work.

17:01David McWilliams: But what I'm saying is what's triggering their sense of possibility is the actuality that over the last hundred years, there has been a massive, massive increase in human life expectancy. So what they're saying is if we can replicate that, there is a possibility. So let's say that it's not all bonkers, that there is something going on. But of course, your man Johnson, I don't know if you saw his movie. No, I haven't. It's a documentary called Don't Die, The Man Who Wants to Live Forever. Well, just have a look at it. kind of mad stuff. But as you said, it's that combination of tech bro, evangelical belief in science, evangelical belief in the future, and also what we know to be the total and utter obsession of rich men in particular sticking around forever, right?

17:52David McWilliams: So that's something that we've seen throughout history. But it's not happening in a vacuum. He is part of a much larger economics of longevity business, right? That's what you could call it, the economics of longevity, right? Anti-aging and longevity, multi-billion dollar business. I'll give you some figures, John. Yeah, too. Anti-aging products, supplements, skin care, wellness programs, all that carry on, $70 billion market. Wow. Colleen Rooney, John, Wayne's, Mrs. Yeah. Just her own supplements range, Holland and Barrett, the Kardashians, all that sort of stuff. This market is projected to double to 140 odd billion by 2034.

18:33Driven by influencers.

18:34David McWilliams: Yes, but the notion that 60 is the new 40, which you and I definitely are bearing down on, John, and we want to have this, right? For sure, yeah. It's becoming more than a saying. It's a real thing. So also investors, John, in Silicon Valley are bailing into this don't die movement. And so the past few years, biotech startups in longevity are backed by loads of loot, are just spreading up everywhere, right? Tech billionaires, for example, the Google founders, have backed a company called Calico Labs, which is short for Californian Life Company. Jeff Bezos, your friend and mine, who else? He's put in, with a bunch of his mates, $3 billion into a company called Altos Labs, a company dedicated to cellular reprogramming therapies, hoping to reverse aging.

19:22David McWilliams: Oh, my God. And they are reporting some success in extending mice lifespans via gene therapy. So the whole idea is, could you actually, through genetic engineering, isolate the genes which trigger aging and in some ways zap them with something so you reverse this? It's called gene editing. Yeah. Stem cell therapy. I mean, this is all kind of double Dutch to me because I'm not a biologist. I have no idea of the biology behind it, the science behind it. But certain people who have, have put in huge amount of money into this area. I'll give you another one. Five billion in venture capital is flowing into longevity related companies in 2023.

20:11David McWilliams: The sector is creating unicorns. Yeah. There's a company called Cambrian Bio. Now, Cambrian is a word that the tech bros love because it's the Cambrian moment of creation that they love. And this company develops drugs to slow aging, and it's now valued at 1.8 billion. So it's kind of a unicorn. So, wow. The interesting thing is, John, this is happening. But this industry is mostly America-focused, is it? I mean, I know you're talking these are global figures and stuff, but it's only really Americans and rich Europeans and rich Asians that would be buying them. It's not your average. Of course not.

20:48David McWilliams: This is the ultimate high-end consumer product. Yeah, but it's typical. It's all about quantity and not quality. So the quantity of life, but not the quality of life. Well, I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to create a scenario where your quality of life extends commensurately with your quantity of life. Yeah. So diseases of aging, such as Alzheimer's, for example, the one disease that many people really do not want to get, is again clearly a function of the fact that physically we are being kept alive too long. And some parts of our bodies are just simply shutting down while we're being kept alive.

21:31David McWilliams: But what I am fascinated by is this sort of Logan's Run. Did you ever see the movie Logan's Run, John? Logan's Run, yes. I do remember that. where it was basically all about the cult of absolute youth. And the cult of absolute youth was so uniform that when you were 35, you had to be killed because you were too old. And Logan's run is the run of Logan trying to get away from all this carry on. But what I'm saying, John, is this is easy to be cynical about. I'm cynical about it because I also think that there's just sort of a natural rhythm in life that, you know, basically one of those things that certain obsessives believe is that progression is linear.

22:22David McWilliams: And I happen to think that progression is cyclical. Yeah. That you go up, you go down, you get young, you're old, you die, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, but Mark, hang on a second. Hang on a second. You know, if we... Hold your hour. Hold your hour there for a second. I'm not having this. I'm not having this. If we have, like we already have an aging population, but if we're elongating our lifespans and we're going to have. I see what you did there. Hey, more and more older people, like really old people knocking around on zipper frames and wheelchairs and the whole lot. What will that mean for economics and for society?

23:04I mean, you often go on about demographics is basically is everything at the end of the day.

23:09David McWilliams: You're absolutely, John, I'm going to give you an image of what this society is going to look like. Have you ever been to the Florida Keys? No, I haven't. Right? So Key Lago. Yeah. Key West is the end, right? Yeah, yeah. The Florida Keys, I spent some time in a place called Isla Morada. This is what this society looks like. It is a society characterized by golf buggies. Yeah. And incredibly fit old people, rich old white people, being served endless pills and supplements by poor black people. This is, so the Florida Keys, if any of our listeners, if any of our listeners have been to the Florida Keys, I, 20 years ago, was asked to work for a company down there.

23:57David McWilliams: I was a private individual. and I remember giving a speech and everybody was ancient in the room. And this was the beginning of this process of very, very rich Americans migrating from Pittsburgh, New York, Philadelphia, Boston. They were called the snowbirds in Canada. They basically avoided the snow. They came down to Florida. Right. But the Florida Keys is the sort of Tiernan Oak of Florida, which is kind of America's Tiernan Oak in the first place. And you go down the Florida Keys, they're basically held together by roads through the ocean. Yeah, yeah. And very, very, very strange places. And the image you get there, John, is the image that you're looking for, which is this crazy idea of age apartheid, where Tirnanog is about the young dominating the old.

25:03Yeah.

25:03David McWilliams: But American Tirnanog is about the old dominating the young. So you have these ancient wizened creatures kept alive by supplements and pills being waited on by virile young, usually Caribbean, usually black people. Okay. So that's the image, right? God, what kind of a world? It's kind of tragic. It's really tragic. It's really tragic. And I remember thinking to myself, wow, this is so odd. And coming back home to Dublin and just thinking, thanks, Billy Jason. I remember I told my alpha about it. This is when dad was still alive and he said, that's a terrible card. That's a terrible card. So that's what that word looks like, John.

25:49it's not an attractive world to me at all it's not a world I want to live in

25:54David McWilliams: no it's not a world given the state of you you're going to live in either let's pick this up after the break fair enough

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28:05Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Upwork dot com. Mac, we're talking about aging and everlasting youth. And codology. And codology. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But there's one thing about, you know, keeping the body alive. There's another thing about your mind. But here's the thing. You were talking about Key West and Florida and all the rest. yesterday in France went on a cycle around beautiful wine country and at one point and this is in 30 something degrees and at one point I kind of climbed to the top of a hill wheezing sweating I'm just laughing at the picture and I was on an electric bike and this woman I'd say she was well into her 80s, came up the other side in one of those, you know, ancient 1920s bikes or whatever.

29:10Not a bother on her. Just quiz me. She was either in her 80s and mega fit or she was 26 with really bad skin. I don't know which, but I didn't feel good.

29:21David McWilliams: Look, the thing is, it would be really nice as a general rule to age well. That is what we all hope, that we will age well and that we'll be able to be physically fit and mentally fit and do all the things or most of the things we could do when we were younger. I mean, that's, I think, what most of us want is not necessarily to live forever or even live beyond a certain date, but actually to live reasonably well during this period. And I mean, this is the objective, but this has been, John, down through the ages. I'll bring you back. You know, you may well have had that epiphany yesterday as you were up the top of the hill, But ancient China, 3rd century BC, one of the most extraordinary things about China is the terracotta army.

30:06David McWilliams: Do you remember that one that was found? Oh, it's fantastic, yeah, yeah. But that was, I'll tell you, the tomb of the emperor, Queen Zhihang. Now, Queen Zhihang sent scholars and alchemists around searching for the elixir of life in the 3rd century BCE. Now, he ingested, So he swallowed mercury-laced potions they gave him because they believed mercury would confer immortality. But of course, mercury killed him, right? Yeah, yeah, of course it did. And it poisoned him to death at the age of 49. And it's his massive tomb, which is guarded by the famed Terracotta army. And it's reported that this even contains liquid mercury, a testament to the death-defying ambitions, right?

30:52David McWilliams: Which is bizarre. So instead of eternal life, poor Al Quinn is a cautionary tale from history. Trying too hard not to die actually hastens his own demise. And that again is another sort of thing, this idea that, you know, you have to be aware as you get older. You can't do these things because you can't be pushing yourself all the time. But to get back to our tech bros, right? I mean, there is something in this quest to create longevity that will never, ever go away. That's the interesting thing. It ain't going to go away. But maybe we should end with what sort of society looks like or what a society looks like if it gets very old.

31:36David McWilliams: And again, we go to Asia for the example. The example is Japan. So Japan is a society where not too many years ago, it sold more nappies for old people than for babies. Yes. Right? That is an image. I'm not too sure which is the worst image. You at the top of the hill, sweating, or the Japanese nappy issue, right? Now, interestingly, I have just received a book in the post about the economic history of Japan by a former colleague of mine, a former boss of mine, called Russell Jones. And what I might do is I might have a brief look at that and we might do over the next week or two a podcast on the Japanese economy and society now because that is the society that has become very old and it's also the society where people live longest.

32:30David McWilliams: But they're also a struggling economy as well. So that's what we'll go into. Is it absolutely the case that when the economy gets old, when societies get old, the economy goes backwards, the society goes backwards, or have the Japanese, yet again, figured out a way to avoid the vista, the appalling vista of the Florida Keys, which is just awful, right? Yeah, yeah. And live with the idea of a large section of the population over 80, 90, or even over 100. because the idea is for the tech bros is that at the moment, the oldest humans are living, I think it's to 120. I think it's the oldest person in the world.

33:17Yeah, yeah.

33:17David McWilliams: What they're saying, if one person can do it, everyone can do it. Or if one person can do it, they can do it with all their supplements. So that's their target is 120. Right. In the next podcast, John, look at a society that is moving in that direction. Oh my God, that doesn't sound like crack at all. no crack no crack cul-de-sac the don't die is don't have crack exactly anyway listen we'll talk to you tomorrow or the next day alright bye good luck

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