Why Trump Is About to Come for Ireland

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0:43David McWilliams: Today's podcast is all about the economics of Ozempec or Monjaro. It's going to be talking about Eli Lilly's results. Eli Lilly pays twice as much tax in Ireland as it does in America, which is an awful thing for us to admit. And we're going to talk about the economics of the drugs themselves, plus the fragility of an economy, which is over-dependent on one source of corporate finance and corporate taxation, which is a description of Ireland at the moment and our extraordinary over-dependence on American multinationals. That's all coming up in a couple of minutes.

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2:47David McWilliams: How you doing there? It is time for the podcast. Today's podcast is all going to be about skinny people. It's not us. It's not us, but if you're very skinny and you're out there, this is all about you. It's all for you. No, it's going to be about the economics of Monjaro, Monjaro, Zenpec, all that stuff, weight loss drugs, but it's also going to be about the impact of weight loss drugs on the bottom line of pharmaceutical companies and the tax they pay in Ireland vis-a-vis the tax they should pay in the United States, all against the background of President Donald Trump having yet another hissy fit about who is a good neighbour, who is a good ally.

3:31David McWilliams: It's kind of hard to take lectures on good corporate citizenship from a man who is bombing the shite out of a country, as we speak. Indeed. Who said he wouldn't either, but anyway. Anyway, but we are going to talk about that at another stage. But that's what we're going to talk about, John. How are you, Ed? It's good to see you. Yeah, and you. And you. It's good. It's good. But what is interesting about pharmaceuticals, right, is that pharmaceuticals are the one area that Trump appears to be, and rightly so, aggrieved. And Nutlick as well. He's the one who bangs on the better. But the interesting thing is that there are many ways in which the Americans can introduce tariffs.

4:15There's many various different acts that they use. So the Supreme Court has just struck down one act, which is the Emergency Economic Powers Act, right? And the Emergency Economic Powers Act says

4:26David McWilliams: the president can, at a time of emergency, do whatever they want commercially. But what the Supreme Court says, but you have to define the emergency. And what they've looked at is there's no evidence that the United States is in an emergency. Yes. So what they've said is that legalistically it can't be. But there are many other acts. So there is a section 232, John, of the Trade Expansion Act, which governs pharmaceuticals, which may well... Oh, specifically? Yeah, which may well be the legislation that Trump or the American administration uses to target the activities of the pharmaceutical industry.

5:07The reason I'll tell you, Trump remarked when Nihal Martin went to the White House last year, Trump and Mark said, all of a sudden, Ireland has our pharmaceutical companies. This beautiful island of five million people has got the entire US pharmaceutical industry in its grasp, right? So he is looking at that. And this podcast today

5:27David McWilliams: is going to be all about triggering Donald Trump, okay? And specifically, a announcement last week by Eli Lilly, which is one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the United States. Yeah. When you look at the filings from 2025, so how much tax they paid, Eli Lilly extraordinarily paid$6.6 billion in taxes to the Irish government and it paid how much to the American government? Don't know. $3.2 billion. Wow, okay. Eli Lilly paid the Irish government and our beautiful island of 5 million people, twice as much in tax as it paid the entire of the United States with their 340 million people. Yeah.

6:21So the Americans are right to be pissed off about that. They're completely right. I mean, it makes no sense.

6:28David McWilliams: If they are about bringing back corporate American money, if they are about trying to close off loopholes, if they are about saying to the pharmaceutical industries, Well, you have to pay money in taxes where you've earned the money. How is it in any way democratic? Because I know you like Democrats. But you only like Democrats when they're democratic, right? Yes, I do. But how is it in any way democratically plausible that one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world will pay a tiny island twice as much in tax in one year as it will pay their home country? when we know they are generating their income in their home company.

7:12David McWilliams: So the question now, John, is what is going on? Yeah. Right? What is going on, Matt? What is going on is a drug called Monjaro. Yeah. Monjaro is the latest iteration of weight loss drugs. The original of this piece has been Ozempek. Ozempek was a Danish drug which came on the market about two years ago. and of course the extraordinary promise of these drugs is that you will get thin very quickly from taking them. Yeah. They're an injection. It also makes you quite sick, I believe. I know loads of people on them. Half of my mates are on Monjaro now. Really? Half of my mates. My cousin went on Ozempic and he came over because he was so sick.

7:58David McWilliams: I think Monjaro makes you much less sick and that's why Monjaro is made by Eli Lilly. So the story, there's two. High quality stuff. There's two stories. Yeah, it's like your drug dealer's job, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Monjaro, the reason Monjaro has been incredibly successful of late is that it has far fewer side effects and it is apparently quicker at reducing weight. Now, of course, it's suppressant. They all are suppressing the diet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So, the reason that Eli Lilly is generating so much money is Eli Lilly produces and manufactures the latest, most efficient weight loss drug.

8:41David McWilliams: And that drug is called Monjaro in Ireland, and it's called Z-Pound in the United States. It's a combination of both, right? And that drug, in clinical trials, delivered weight loss on average of over 20 % to people who take high doses, because there's three doses you can take of it, highest dose for 72 weeks. So if you take this it'll reduce profoundly and I know a good few mates of mine are on it. Actually a good few mates of mine aren't that big. They're on it for really cosmetic reasons. Right. Like yourself? Like myself. So it rapidly reduces my drug intake, John. My booze intake and my food intake.

9:21Yeah, your McDonald's intake. So all the vices I'm sitting around here I look like heroin chic, right? I look like a male version of Pots. You should be in vogue. Twiggy, just call me twiggy from now on, okay? Here I am sucking in my ned, right? Chomping Monjaro. I'm injecting myself at Monjaro. Right. But the point is, because it's so bleeding successful, John,

9:44David McWilliams: that last year, Eli Lilly reported$22 billion in revenue from Monjaro alone, and$13 billion from Z-Pound. That constituted an extraordinary 56 % of the revenues of the entire company. And where is the stuff made? Kinsale. Kinsale. Right? Actually, which is kind of a gastro town as well. Ironically, so for non-Irish listeners, Kinsale is a gastro town full of high-end restaurants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there you have the epicentre. So what is happening is transfer pricing. So they manufacture the essential raw materials from Monjaro and Kinsale. Yeah. They export that to America. That then gets manufactured into a product, and that product is sold to fat Americans, to overweight Americans.

10:39So it's assembled, as it were. It's made in Ireland. It's made in Kinsale. The ingredients, though, and then it's assembled in America.

10:45David McWilliams: So you can imagine fentanyl, right? Fentanyl, the raw material comes from China. It's assembled in Mexico, and it's exported by drug gangs into the United States. Think Manjaro, the same idea, right? The raw material... Without the shadow banking. Without the shadow banking. The raw material now was China for fentanyl. It's actually Ireland for Monjaro. It's then assembled in the United States and then it's pushed onto the American population in the same sort of drug cartel hierarchy and structure, right? And the reason it's so significant in America is there's lots of overweight people in America.

11:24David McWilliams: So obviously, but you have this extraordinary battle in America between American food manufacturers, which make brutal food that make people fat, and American weight loss manufacturers, which make drugs to make sure that overweight people suppress their appetite. And it's this sort of mad sort of tug of war between these two sides. And RFK Jr. is the man who's making America healthy again. By doing press-ups, right? But the whole key to understanding this is the economics of weight and weight loss, which is an amazing, amazing field. Because what we know is the psychology of weight loss is real.

12:11David McWilliams: So what I want to do is I want to focus on the economics of Ozembek, Monjaro, weight loss, all that thing. First thing to appreciate is that fat is an economic issue. Right. Right. So a research project in Cornell University in the US found that obese women earn 10 % less than their non-obese counterparts, right? Right. So therefore, taking Momjarro is a savvy investment in your future. Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. And that is, there's a whole, you know, there's a whole host of things that are triggered and emotions by people being overweight. It's a, if, you know, you hear people saying, well, if you can't control your own weight, you haven't got that sort of self-control, what sort of control do you have all that sort of stuff right but we know that in concrete terms overweight people earn less which is extraordinary so therefore what you're looking at increasing access to these drugs yeah that's sorry that's an incredible marketing ploy isn't it or marketing message that if you want to earn more take Ozympic well of course yeah yeah it's amazing but they should say that yeah they should say that if you want more sex yeah more often All these things.

13:21We know all this sort of stuff, you know. But the key thing here is you can actually see that socioeconomically, it actually changes people's long-term earning power, being less fat.

13:34David McWilliams: And also the problem, though, is that Ozempek and Mumjaro are expensive. So basically in the United States, obesity is a class issue. Yeah. Poor people haven't got the income to eat good food, so they eat bad food, they get fatter. So you can see inequality in the United States on the street, the way people dress, but also the way people look and their weight, right? Now, the problem with Ozempic and Monjaro is they're expensive, right? Ozempic, for example, costs$5 to make, package and deliver, right? That's okay. But those people without insurance in the United States pay$1 ,300 a month or$15 ,600 a year to actually take these drugs.

14:26David McWilliams: They're incredibly expensive, right? Yeah, okay. So originally these are anti-diabetic drugs. If you're diabetes, if your doctor says you have diabetes, you can get these on health insurance. So basically, but the vast majority of people who are taking them are non-diabetics. They're using it for weight loss. And then of course, they're on the open market and they're incredibly expensive. And I'll give you the figures again. It costs$1 ,300 a month to take Ozempic if you don't have diabetes insurance, right? That's$15 ,000 a year. Now, most poor people don't have that. So what is going to happen is that the people who are going to actually avail of this are pretty well off.

15:06David McWilliams: So it's going to reinforce and double down on the socioeconomic impact of being overweight. Why? Because only rich people can afford these drugs, which is extraordinary. So inequality becomes a visible thing then? Well, it is already visible in America and here. It's already, you know, rich people are skinny here. Yeah. You know, as a general rule, you know, it's the aesthetic because the food is better, all that sort of stuff. They have more time to cook. They have more time to cook. We know all these things, right? But 14 % of the diabetic population in the United States spend more than 40 % of their post-subsistence income on insulin alone.

15:49So drugs are so expensive in the United States, right?

15:52David McWilliams: But this Ozembek mumjaro stuff is given to people as weight loss. They don't qualify for insurance, so you already have a socioeconomic impact, right? You know, the 26 % of adults in England are obese. Right. And in Ireland, what do you think of it as? Gov.ie tells us 63 % of Irish men are overweight. 63%. And 50... You heard the drum. The drum, John's drum is a thing of... That was Maggers, by the way. That's Maggers. Maggers drum, John's drum, right? Okay, John is the cosy pal of drummers, okay? That 50 % of Irish women are overweight. One in eight people worldwide are obese. This is how huge the problem is, right?

16:43And adolescent obesity rates have quadrupled since 1990. And of course, what's adding to that as well is the sedentary lifestyle and less sport. Less sport, all that sort of stuff. Some people are just getting fatter. But these drugs are miracle drugs. Because they're doing, for the first time ever, is they seem to be successful. I have great sympathy for loads of people I know, and loads of people I know are out there.

17:10David McWilliams: who have been trying to lose weight, who can't lose weight. They diet all the time. They go in this regime and that regime. They try to run. They try to walk. They're trying to get active. It's incredibly difficult for them to lose weight. So I have huge sympathy for them. I really understand anybody who goes on these drugs because it basically psychologically, emotionally, physically, financially, you feel better because you are better. In fact, I remember talking to a doctor who actually said you should put it in the water. No, he did. He said it's brilliant. He said that most of his problems are weight related.

17:47David McWilliams: Yes, of course. High blood pressure, bad tickers, all that sort of stuff. But also, you know, I mean, the whole diet industry, as it was in the kind of 80s and 90s, was an enormous industry. And that in itself, that kind of constant dieting and the yo-yo effect that people always had once they come off a diet, they put the weight back on. That has a huge stress on your body as well. So these things, these drugs are really powerfully positive for society. That's the first thing. And the second thing is they are powerfully positive for the individuals who take them because psychologically and physically this is achieving something that people couldn't achieve prior to this.

18:32David McWilliams: There are purists who say, well, you shouldn't be overweight, you should be disciplined. But, you know, as you've said, lifestyles, bad food, too many pints, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Living. It's all going, exactly. It's all going to have its impact. But the bottom line is phenomenal. So, for example, right, a trial of 2 ,600 obese people found that taking weight loss drugs enabled people to work five extra days per year. Right? This resulted, this is in the UK, resulted in an annual net production gain of£1 ,127 per person, equating to£4.3 billion extra carried out across the UK. Only economists could do that.

19:15David McWilliams: Do you know what I mean? How can we make these overweight people earn more or whatever, right? But the key idea is that these drugs are incredibly popular. They will become more popular. marketing wise they were going to be exceptionally almost addictive and what you're of course you're going to see because thin is an aesthetic you will see lots of normal weighted people who want to be thinner but we're already seeing that i have a couple of mates who take one jar and they don't need it at all they're just taking it because it's an easy way so basically you know this idea john and you and i would refer to us having having your your summer bod yes yes i'm I'm working on that currently.

19:58David McWilliams: But this is what's going to happen. People are going to just, people are doing it already. They're just going to go on Monjaro or Zenpec for a couple of months ahead of the summer. And this is going to be part of, and this is the fascinating thing, of the cosmetic industry. Yeah. And this is why companies in Ireland are making a fortune from it. I don't know if you can answer this, but so what happens when you take a Zenpec for a while and then you come off it? You have to stay on it. You have to stay on it. So it's a real money spinner. So you come back off and then you kind of go back to where you were or worse.

20:30Yeah. What it's doing is it's suppressing your appetite.

20:35David McWilliams: And of course, like any of those protein pump blockers, and when you actually stop them, your body then begins. But it's amazing for Ireland. It's a bit like, you know, if you're on blood pressure tablets or statins. Any of those tablets, right. So basically you're on it for life. Yeah, but what's fascinating in Ireland is if you look at what we make in Ireland, do you know the way we think we're a nice nation and we're decent or whatever? Do you know what we make? We make Monjaro. Yeah. What is the world's biggest exporter of Viagra? Yeah, yeah. Ireland, 100 % of all Viagra is made in, bring a skiddy, down in Torka.

21:12Something's going on in the water. Botox, all made, all made in Allergan. Fake boobs. We are the cosmetic capital. That's right. The more the world... We would put it like that. The more the world behaves badly, the better we do. I mean, Ireland is the counter-cyclical financial indicator

21:28David McWilliams: for the global health industry. Because we have invested enormously in people living badly, boozing too much, eating too much, all that sort of stuff. And we have a miracle cure. We've got Botox, we've got Viagra. We can fix that for you. We can fix it. Just so you know, foreign listeners, that there is absolutely no morality in Irish industrial policy, right? We have embraced the worst drugs in the world. We have exported them throughout the world. And we make fortune from them. There is no reason to be anything other than slightly ashamed of what we do in this country. I'm not ashamed of that at all.

22:06I think they're good drugs. They're helping humanity. Well, you're going to be there. You and the Kardashians are going to be there. Kim Kardashian should just be an ad for Ireland. Ireland, where all your shitty problems can be solved.

22:20David McWilliams: You don't get to look like this. As Dolly Parton said, it costs a lot of money to look this cheap. Yes. One of the greatest lines. So, John, let us come back to the economics of it. Yes, let's get down to the brass types of it. So you can see is that this industry is phenomenally profitable. Ireland, because we involve ourselves in, but we deny it, in transfer pricing, which is where internally a multinational will inflate the profits in one area in order to avail of lower taxes. Yeah. And it will then be accused of taking the money that should be paid in America and paying the money here. So what's your big concern here?

23:04My big concern is, number one, that Ireland becomes a rogue state. Okay. Obscule evil. Yes, a rogue state. No, no, no. a state with the...

23:18David McWilliams: No, that Ireland becomes the state that is most identified with corporate malfeasance. Yes, okay. It is not good for us to have a large American multinational pay twice the amount of tax here than it does in America. This is not good for us on any metric. Because if we're trying to pretend or argue that we are not in some way a tax laundering country, it's a little bit like, it's all right robbing a little bit, but don't rob a lot. You know, that people don't mind what they can't really feel or see. But if you're involving yourself in wholesale... Like double, double. Yeah, but it's not only double.

24:06It's double what you pay in America. We have 5 million people.

24:11David McWilliams: Taxes should reflect populations as a general rule. They have 340 million people. We know that their entire MAGA industrial strategy is identifying countries that they feel are playing the game unfairly. Yeah. And we are playing the game unfairly. Not only we're giving them two fingers and we're al fresco involved in tax manipulation. Yeah. Right? So I think that's my first concern is that because what you basically have, John, is a reason for Trump to go after you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A reason, a reason. And what you're trying to do is we are trying to limp to the end of the Trump administration, hopefully unscathed.

25:01David McWilliams: And I think it is... Now, I don't know if it's within our gift to tell Eli Lilly we don't want the money, but the Irish government don't ever publish how much money we get from them. The only reason this podcast has it is we looked at the data and the files, filing returns of tax from the company itself. Right. So the Irish government obscures everything. Oh, we'll get this. But we know, for example, that Ireland now is highly dependent on a small amount of American multinationals for a huge amount of our corporation tax. Do you think that the Irish government are aware that this is just for the short term?

25:50You know, at some stage, we're going to be, not found out, because we're already found out, but they're just going to call a halt to it? No, I think the Irish state, to the extent that it has a brain,

26:02David McWilliams: like that there's one functioning person, because I've always felt that what is one difficult thing to admit is that there doesn't seem to be any logical coherence in the Irish state. But look, we do know, right, that it has been leaked and assessed that between three companies, Apple, Microsoft and Eli Lilly, account for 13 billion euros in tax. That is 46 % of our entire corporate tax bill. And our entire corporate tax bill is already way out of line with the rest of the world. So in general, your corporation tax should be about 10 % of your tax take. Our corporation tax is 30 % of our tax take.

26:46So we're taking already three times more corporation tax than we should

26:51David McWilliams: do. And of that, a sliver of companies, three are paying over half. So how do we recalibrate this and how do we rebalance this? Because we're really exposed now. We are really exposed. And, you know, there is going to be a day when it's called in. Well, there's two things going on here, John. One is the exposure to our fragility of the tax base. The other thing is what multinationals do to the country, right? And that comes back to the Dutch disease idea. Yeah. That the multinationals, because if you work for a multinational, you're going to get paid more. You're going to have much, much better.

27:32Yeah. It distorts the whole labour market.

27:35David McWilliams: It distorts the labour market. It distorts the rental market. If you're employed by these big multinationals, you have much more money. So therefore you get the nice flats, such as they are in Dublin and all around the country. So basically it sucks in all the resources. That's the first thing. The second thing is it creates a monoculture. And this is something we came back, we talked about evolutionary economics in the last podcast. That monoculture is to economics what monoculture is to the environment. It's dangerous. The greatest example of monoculture, of course, in Irish history was the over-dependence on the potato.

28:12So if you had seen the Irish census in 1840 and you said,

28:18David McWilliams: oh my God, there's 8 million people living in that country. That must be a sign of success. Because there was only 16 million people living in England. So our population was half that of England. It's now about a tenth of the English population, right? It's less than a tenth. So if you'd seen the Irish census in 1840, we said, oh my God, there's 8 million people. That must be a sign of success. But it wasn't. It was a sign of weakness because it was over-dependence on the potato. And the idea was if that crop failed, the country failed. And we know what happened. The crop failed. Likewise, if you look at the Irish corporation tax and you say, oh my God, they've got nearly 30 billion coming from the Americans, it's a sign of success.

28:55David McWilliams: No, it's a sign of dependency on the monoculture that is this industrial model. What you want in economics, as you want in ecology, is you want diverse flora, diverse animals, diverse plants. The more diversity, the more resilient. So if one plant goes, you can replace another one. Yeah, I mean, there was always the basic argument for strong biodiversity. Yeah. You know, the more biodiverse an environment is, the stronger it is and the more resilient it is. And exactly the same goes for economics. You want loads of companies doing loads of different things, employing loads of different people at different skill levels, producing loads of different products.

29:40David McWilliams: That is biodiversity in the economic realm. A country like Denmark has that. Yeah. We don't have that. And the risk is that we end up being far too dependent, not just for money, but for economic headspace on multinationals. So, Mike, our whole labour market, our whole economy is distorted by the multinationals. But what do we need to do? What's the scale of this that we need to change? And how do we go about it? But before you answer that, let's do a bit of this.

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32:34So the Irish economy, Mac, is healthy and booming away, but it's completely distorted with a handful of multinationals. It's like a fat person taking a Zempick. They look good, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay? But you know, if they stop taking a Zempick, they're going to blow it out again. So what do we do? What's the scale of this issue and how do we actually change it? So I'll just give you one interesting... We need to be more resilient. We need to be more... We need more biodiversity, right? I'll give you just one small example. To replace, I said the Americans would probably end up giving us about$30 billion in taxes next year.

33:11David McWilliams: But last year they gave us$24 billion. So to replace that, just imagine replacing that, right? So what you want is lots of small companies, which will eventually become big companies. But if you wanted to replace the amount of money that the Americans are giving us every year. going to have to at some stage. Yeah, it'll certainly diminish at a certain level. What would we have to be doing here to generate the same sort of tax to actually fill the hole in the government's balance sheet? So if you take a small Irish company, let's say making a profit of half a million a year, so that's quite healthy, right?

33:51At the rate of corporation tax, which is 12.5%, that company would pay 62 ,000 euros per year in corporation tax. Now, to replace the 24 billion paid by the multinationals, you would need 384 ,000 new Irish companies generating half a million per year. Half a million profit. Profit, not in revenue, to replace the Americans. 380 ,000 healthy companies. How many have you at the moment, roughly? So there are 310 ,000 companies in the entire country. Right. Right. Okay. And less than 6 % of those companies have profits of over half a million. So what we're talking about, Ireland is populated by a very small amount of very small companies living side by side with a very small amount of enormous American companies.

34:53And if we were to end up like Denmark and be healthy, we would have to create, this is an extraordinary idea, 380 ,000 new companies to replace that. So that will never happen. And I suppose a lot of the companies that are in existence at the moment are in some way doing business with the big companies anyway. So if the Eli Lilly's, for example, up and left.

35:21David McWilliams: All those middle, yeah, you're right. All those middle companies. We'll lose a lot of those companies anyway. So what I'm saying is we are very, very fragile. And again, I come back to the snapshot of Ireland's population in 1840. Yeah. The population of 8 million looked like a sign of success, but in actual fact, history tells us that it was actually a sign of unbelievable fragility. And I'll just end, when you talk to government circles, there's no urgency. They're like, it'll be grand. Everything's going to be fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep the head down. Yeah, and there was a... Say nothing.

36:00David McWilliams: There's a great book, I think, somewhere around here called Sleepwalkers by a guy called Christopher Clarke. Right. And it's basically about the origins of the First World War. and it talks about the Prussians, the British, the French, the Russians, the Serbs, all the elites of these countries, the Austrians as well, of course, kind of sleepwalking into catastrophe. Every time there was a warning, they said, it'll be grand, don't worry, it'll be fine. And again, I'll conclude here with this image, John. Slightly overweight people, sleepwalking into a catastrophe. It's as if we in Ireland, it's as if we've taken some drug that we have suspended our critical faculties and rather than listen to all these things and say, this is a warning and this is a signal and look at the amount of companies we'd have to produce, what we're doing is we're just chomping.

36:56David McWilliams: You know, interestingly, we started at a discussion of a drug that was a reflection, arguably, of ill discipline, that you eat too much, you drink too much. You don't take into account, as you said, the long-term consequences of your short-term gluttony and your appetite. This is exactly the same. And we may well, John, turn into a nation of sleepwalkers. And that's, I think, where we're going. This next segment is a paid partnership with Skills to Advance, an initiative of SOLAS, the ETBs, and the Government of Ireland. We've talked a lot recently about artificial intelligence, what it might mean for jobs, for productivity, and for the wider economy.

37:42But there's a gap between the hype and the reality. Most people aren't being replaced by AI. They're being asked to work alongside it. And this raises a more practical question. How do individuals and businesses actually build the skills to use AI effectively? Not just in theory, but in everyday work. in a way that's useful, responsible, and grounded in real-world application. That's where the idea of micro-qualifications comes in. Short, focused training designed to help people understand AI, apply it, and make sense of what it can and cannot do. To explore that and how these programs are being rolled out across Ireland, we're going to look at what's happening on the ground and what it means for the future of work.

38:29David McWilliams: now i am speaking to noreen fitzpatrick who's the acting director of communications and strategy at solace about this new initiative about ai and about this idea of micro qualifications to figure out ai noreen lovely to see you how are you i'm good thank you david great now tell me What exactly are micro qualifications? Because the whole world is talking about AI and so few people seem to really have a grasp of what's it going to do. People are afraid, they're nervous, some people are enthusiastic, but ultimately people are a bit confused. Tell me about it. Okay, so our micro qualifications, they are really short focused training programs that help people understand, apply and adapt AI in their everyday lives.

39:18So each microqualification is 50 hours of learning. So it could be made up of 25 hours, either delivered online or through a tutor. And the rest is working on some kind of practical project, you know, trying to test how you use it. So it's ideal for people who are time poor, who don't want to learn on an incremental basis. And I guess one of the beauties about micro qualifications too is that they're very heavily subsidized, but also they were co-designed with industry and subject matter experts in AI to kind of make sure that we could condense all of that learning into small chunks of relevant learning.

39:57learning. You know, it's the bizarre thing is I was actually talking to my wife last night about doing an AI course. We were just saying, because we don't really know it. And we run little small businesses and all sorts of things. And everyone's saying it's going to be revolution. It's going to change this, that, the other. I was thinking maybe, is there a course out there that we can do? And what you're saying is there is a course. Yes, there are four of them. And so our education and training boards, which there are 16 around the country, and they're based in all the locations and they kind of even have smaller training centers around, but they will offer the micro qualifications.

40:30And, you know, I think it is really beneficial because what they really try to do is to organize it to meet kind of busy schedules of employers and employees. So they're very flexible. They're all locally run. They're delivered either online or in person or sometimes in a blended, depending what the need is. But I think the fact is that they are very focused on the needs of individual learners, trying to start on that journey and get an understanding of what is AI? You know, what does it mean to me? What does it mean to my business? And how do I apply it? So I think it's really practically focused.

41:06So of great benefit to everybody to get on board, but also it gives people the confidence to dip their toe in the water. And I think that's, you know, a really important thing because a lot of us know that it's here. So there's no escaping that, but it's kind of thinking, oh God, I don't know where to start. Where do I get the first piece? And if you do, and I suppose our courses are at different levels, so you could do an introduction to AI, then you could progress into saying, okay, how do I use AI to enhance or boost productivity? And then you can go on to a higher level again, which is looking at the ethical side of it and also how to develop a new strategy for your business, even if it's small.

41:46And even though there's small chunks of learning, you actually gain a really good ground understanding of what the key things are that you need to know. And then if you want to delve a little bit further, you can go somewhere else and get more learning, you know, but I think it's good to dip your toe in the water. And so, Noreen, where do we find all this? Where do we find it? If somebody's listening now and they're saying, you know what, this is exactly the sort of stuff that I should be either doing myself or encouraging my employees to do it because we need somebody in the firm, even if it's a little small firm, that basically is AI literate.

42:18Where do they go? Well, every education and training board across the country. So if you go on to the website, you can just Google the education and training boards and you'll get the individual addresses or else you can get them on skills to advance.ie where we have all the key points of contact and then a little bit about what each of those micro qualifications covers so that you can get a good understanding and then go directly to the education and training boards to kind of sign up. But also we have on that, you know, a portal which shows you the types or when those courses have been scheduled and when they are running.

42:56So that's a kind of a real time data. So you just need to keep an eye on it as the courses are scheduled. And you might even take sort of jobbing freelance economists who really don't understand AI. Is there a place for even us, my little tribe? Everybody. Absolutely. It's interesting because the beauty of the micro qualifications, you have people coming from all levels of education, where we now know this is a new part of your job. So you need that bolt on skills. So these are ideal because a lot of that skill change is at a level five or six, you know, and that's where our courses are pitched.

43:29So if you now want to get a better understanding to add to your own skills, David, you could most certainly do our level fives and six. And I think, you know, the testimonials we're getting back to date are fantastic from big companies, from smaller companies, from individual sole traders, where they're saying, you know, this has really helped me get an understanding about how I can use these AI tools to enhance my own productivity and to really develop and boost my business.

43:59David McWilliams: Great stuff. Well, Noreen Fitzpatrick, the Acting Director of Strategy and Communications at Solace, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much, David. That was a conversation in paid partnership with Skills to Advance, an initiative of Solace, the ETBs and the Government of Ireland. What stands out is that AI isn't some distant abstract force. It's already shaping how people work day to day. And the real challenge isn't whether it arrives, but how prepared we are to use it well. These micro-qualifications delivered locally through the ETBs are about making that transition practical, giving people and businesses the tools to understand AI, apply it, and adapt as the technology evolves.

44:45So if you want to explore what's available or see how you can get involved, you can contact your local ETB to learn more about AI micro-qualifications and lots of other skills to advance courses.

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