Re-Run: Why Wall Street Giant David Rubenstein Bought the Baltimore Orioles

22:53And it is interesting though, when you think about sports teams, why is it that somebody lives in Baltimore, roots for the Baltimore Orioles? What is it? Or lives in Los Angeles, roots for the Dodgers or the Angels. Why is it? Because it It makes people feel proud of the area they live in. They feel like they're part of something. And so if the Minnesota Timberwolves, for example, is a good example, it's a state name around it, not Minneapolis, right? So people throughout the state are probably very proud of the team, as they should be. And some teams are really focused on cities, some are states.

23:23But people take a pride in it. Just like when our Olympic team goes overseas, all Americans are proud of what the American Olympic team does. And when your local team does well, you feel a sense of pride in it. I guess it's a sense of people feeling that I'm more than my body myself. I'm just more than just one person. I am part of a larger organization that makes me feel proud to be part of a larger organization that's doing well. That's why I guess people root for these teams and they feel so passionately about them. You know, David, I always find it interesting when Carlisle has a great return on capital and a big investment.

23:55Your investors don't say we, they just said Carlisle and I'm an investor, right? But when the Orioles win, it's we won or we lost. And my mood either goes up or down depending on wins and losses. I find that to be fascinating. It's true. When we go to a game and we win, I feel really happy. I'm really cheering. I'm going out, you know, getting selfies with people who want them or so forth. When we lose, I'm so dejected. It feels like a dagger was in my heart. I said, how could I have let the fans down? Why didn't we do better? I noticed I get fewer selfie requests after we lose the game. People aren't as interested in pictures anymore.

24:28And I feel bad for people that little boys will come up to me and girls as well and say, well, you autograph my baseball. And I say, look, I'm not, you know, a player, but they, for some reason they want my autograph. And so I, I don't want to have very good handwriting. And as you know, signing a baseball is not, not easy. And I think when handwriting was being taught, I think those were the Jewish holidays. So I wasn't in school. And so I have to write, I do this little print. And then because I'm a lawyer, I write, I put the date in. No other person puts the date in when they sign their autograph, but I want to make sure they know it would actually happen on a certain date.

25:00Do you think you could do some sort of clinic with him for signing baseballs? That's about the only thing I think I can teach David Rubenstein.

25:13Our hometown is not a test tube. 90 miles northeast of Nashville, a battle for the future of America plays out in one small town. Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land. We need cities on a shining hill. This is Our Town, a podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back. Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

25:54You do raise a really interesting point that I've been thinking about because you make your career. I mean, we'll do a very quick career journey. You know, you start as a lawyer. You work in the White House. You work for some law firms. You start Carlyle. I'm going very fast here, obviously. You're very successful at Carlyle. You're one of the preeminent fundraisers in the industry and across Wall Street. Then, as you mentioned, you do a TV show with Bloomberg. and you get a little notoriety from that and people wanna come on your show and talk to you. This feels like an entirely new level of notoriety.

26:26Tell us what that's like and how you're responding to it. Well, in all the years I've been in private equity, nobody ever came up to me in the streets and said, hey, you're doing a great job at private equity. Nobody ever said that. They might've said the opposite. They might've, they maybe they did, but nobody even paid attention. I'm running around in the world, nobody ever paid attention. I would walk down the street, nobody knew who I am. When I started doing the Bloomberg show, Bloomberg is all over the world. And so any city I go into now, just inevitably somebody will come up to me and say, I really like your TV show.

26:53It's great. That's amazing to me that young people or older people see it all over the world. But baseball is even a higher degree than that. I mean, I am recognized more than I ever have been because I own a sports team. And it's not because I've only done anything good for the sports team yet. We haven't done anything to win a World Series yet since I've been an owner. I am amazed at how many people are happy to talk about it. people don't come up to me on the street and say, let's talk about this private equity deal you did recently. Nobody does that. They say, let's talk about the team. It is amazing how I've reconnected with people that I hadn't seen in 20 or 30 or 40 years.

27:27It's a good way to reconnect. I recognize that like anybody who's an owner of a team, you're really a temporary custodian because somebody's going to own it after you and then somebody's going to own it after that person. So you're really representing the city for a relatively finite period of time. Now, there are owners who own teams for 50 years or so, but generally most owners probably own it for a shorter period of time than that. And it is an interesting phenomenon how the business of sports, as you all have recognized so well, has taken off in a way that didn't exist when I was a little boy.

27:58You didn't see owners selling teams all that much. You didn't read about profits being taken all that much. Today, many people buy these teams and in four or five or six years, they go on the next thing or they sell their team at a big profit. It's a different world, maybe better, Maybe, maybe not. But anyway, it's a much different world. And it's not only confined to the United States. Obviously, overseas, people are buying sports franchises as well. And people in America are buying sports franchises all over the world. And then in the old days, it was only males who were sports figures who were on these teams.

28:27Now you have women sports that has also done quite well financially for people. So I want to go back to something Jason said, because, you know, you talked about being one of the greatest prolific fundraisers. Two things I really admired about you from a long time, even before we've met, is your ability to capital raise, but not only capital raise, but do it at a time where you were crossing the pond across the globe. When you go to Saudi or you go to London or you go to Paris, people know you and they think you're a celebrity over there, like they're doing Baltimore now. And then also recruiting great talent.

28:56But focusing on the first one, what makes you such a great capital raiser, one, and two, what gave you the idea to be a visionary to go across the pond and raise capital for Carlisle? Well, you could argue that maybe I couldn't get any investors in the United States, so I had to go overseas. What happened was I came up with an idea that wasn't going to win a Nobel Prize. But the idea was you could build a private equity firm based in Washington, which was not seen as a capital center. And I could do it by saying we understand companies heavily affected by the federal government better than the guys in New York.

29:23So that was a bit of a niche that we could exploit. But then the other two things that I tried to do was I would say that we were going to do more than buyouts. Historically, buyout firms only did buyouts, venture capital only did venture capital and so forth. But if you were in the mutual fund business, for example, you could have mutual fund A or B or C or D under Fidelity. You have 90 different opportunities. I thought I could do the same in private equity, have a buyout fund, a venture fund, a growth capital fund, a real estate fund. And the theory was if you liked our brand name, you'd give us a chance and all these other things.

29:52And then I decided to globalize it by setting up partnerships in Europe, Asia, Latin America, Middle East, Africa and so forth. And that was novel at the time. So building a multidiscipline firm and globalizing it was unusual at the time. Others have done it, and some have done it better than we did. But to do that, I had to go around the world to raise money. And so I just made myself into a fundraiser. I wasn't trained that way. And I just basically tried to learn how these investors would react to the kind of things I was selling and try to follow up. And the key is being polite, knowing what you're talking about, persistence, follow up is always key, and just trying to have a good track record, too.

30:28If you don't have a good track record, you can't sell almost anything. So it turned out that I spent, you know, 20 plus years running around the world raising money for Carlisle and, you know, help us build, along with a good track record, a very good franchise. Well, you also were keyed in pretty early to the idea, early in the Carlisle journey especially, to the power of showing up, right? I mean, to actually getting on the plane and going and actually asking for money. You know, people like to say, you've heard this phrase from time to time, I hate to ask you for money, and then they ask you for money.

31:03So the way I looked at it, there are three types of fundraising you do. One is for business. You're trying to raise money, and you're saying to people, give me money, but I'm going to give you more back. So ultimately, you're getting something that's very tangible. That's not the hardest to do because you're giving money back to people if you're successful. The second is philanthropic. Philanthropic, you're saying to people, you're going to get to heaven more quickly if you give this charitable. And that's hard to do because some people say, you know, I like the tax deduction, but I have my money and maybe I don't want your cause.

31:32The third is political fundraising, which I've not been involved in. I don't make political contributions, but that's a tricky one too, because you're asking people to make a contribution to a candidate. You're not getting a tax deduction for it. With the philanthropic investment or gift, you're getting a tax deduction. So with political, you're basically, you're helping somebody get elected and you have to hope that that person does what you think they should do. So those are the three different types. They have different skill sets and different types of people do well in them. Very few people do well in all three of those.

31:59You certainly did well in the first two, though. So what did you learn from that? Or how did you learn to do it? It's an interesting, if you go to Harvard Business School or Stanford Business School and say, you know, I want to be a fundraiser, you know, there's no courses in fundraising by and large, or maybe they have one now, but they used to not do that because fundraising was considered the lowest part of the totem pole. In the private equity world, the star is the guy that's doing the deals, and the person at the bottom is the person who is raising the money. It wasn't taken that seriously, and it was something that people didn't really want to do.

32:27If you had the ability to be a dealmaker, that was considered better than being a fundraiser. I made myself into a fundraiser because I really didn't have the skill set, the background to be an investor. So while I was sure of the Carlisle Investment Committees, the other people were really day-to-day doing the deals and overseeing them. So I made myself into a full-time fundraiser, which hadn't quite been done before in the private equity world, where a founder of a firm basically was spending most of his time fundraising. And that was novel. Now many others do something similar. But David, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit because there's a lot of people out there.

32:55Well, not a lot, but there were some other folks that were doing just as good as Carlisle return-wise, but they weren't raising the capital you were raising. Did you find the key to your sauce was the actual deals, the deal flow, the returns, or actually that you were connecting with the investor and you were gritty as hell? Oprah Winfrey said to me she wasn't a great interviewer. She's a great listener. So I think the best way to do it, as I've learned over the years, is when you go in and make a presentation to somebody, it's not to say, here's why this fund is great. Here's why you should come in.

33:23Get in there and listen to what they're interested in. Let them talk first. Let them say, here's what they're interested in. Here's what they're doing. Here's what's going on in their country. Here's what's going on in their city. And then you can understand what is making them tick. And then you can pivot what you want to say by blending in with what they likely want to hear. You have to go in and listen to people. And then you also have to follow up. When you have a good fundraising meeting and you meet with somebody that wants to give you money and is interested in it, the goodwill lasts about two and a half weeks.

33:50Because in two and a half weeks, they're going to go on to something else. If you haven't followed up in two and a half weeks and made another connection with a follow-up letter, more materials they want, it's probably not going to happen. So you've got to make sure your follow-up. The key is making certain that you are telling them why what they want to do is something you can help them with. And you've got to be very polite. And you have to learn how to say no or take no, for example. When Steve Schwartzman and Pete Peterson were raising the money for Blackstone, their first fund, Steve wrote in his autobiography, they only got money 3 % of the time.

34:203 % of the time. So these very well-known guys, they were not as well-known then as they later became. But they were being turned down by friends, and people told them they would give them money, and they didn't give them money. I would say probably early on I had a similar percentage. But you can't take it personally. Sometimes people might say to you, come and see me, and then you actually go see them. and they really don't want to give you money, but they're just trying to be polite. I'm sure you may have encountered some of that. And sometimes it's hard to read what people are really thinking, and you don't know whether they're really interested or not.

34:49I say the most of the money that I raised for Carlisle in the early years came from people I hadn't known before. The people that I knew before, I didn't really raise that much money from. Maybe they knew me and they didn't want to give me money. But you just never know who's going to lead to something. So when I recruited the people for Carlisle, I recruited them in a circuitous way, or the people I didn't know before. It led to one thing, led to another. For example, the co-CEO of Carlyle for many years and the chief investment officer was Bill Conway. And I didn't know him from Adam. He lived in Washington, but I didn't know him.

35:19I went to recruit a woman who was just become the treasurer of Gannett. And that's a big position. And this was 1987. And I went to her and said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start a buyout firm in Washington. I'd like you to join us. We'll be one of the original partners. After I made my presentation, she said, let me see if I got it right. You've never done a buyout before, right? That's right. You're going to bring people together who never worked before, right? Together before, yes. You have no money yet. That's right. And you want me to leave my position as treasurer of Gannett to come do that?

35:44I don't think so. But she said, as I was leaving out, she said, oh, there's a guy named Bill Conway who's the chief financial officer of a company in Washington called MCI. I heard he might be leaving. Why don't you give him a call? So I called him. I'd never known him before. We had lunch, and ultimately, he became my partner for 40 years. So you never know where this is going to lead. you've made some sort of evolutions and pivots along the way. And one sort of concurrent with your success in private equity was being a philanthropist, but a very involved one, especially on a number of boards.

36:16And I would say you're more active and more involved and spread across as many as I've ever seen anyone do. What's your thinking behind that? How did you create that playbook? I have four standards for philanthropy. I want to start something that otherwise wouldn't get started, finish something that otherwise wouldn't get finished, be intellectually involved so that I'm going to do more than write a check, and then four, I want to see progress in my lifetime. The third thing, which is to say, be intellectually involved, which I will go on a board typically if I'm giving money, or very often I will, and for reasons that are not completely clear to me, I've often wound up as the chairman of the board.

36:51So I've chaired a lot of organizations in the nonprofit world. I've chaired all the major cultural organizations in Washington. I chaired the Smithsonian, still chair of the Kennedy Center, chair of the Library of Congress board, and now the National Gallery of Art. And it's because I enjoy it, and I love learning about it, and I think I'm giving back to the country in that way. So you have to be motivated as well. I chaired my two university boards. I went to Duke. I chaired that board for four years, and now I'm the chair of the University of Chicago. You know, it's been fun to watch you really lean into this role as an interviewer, and I'm not just trying to plug your show, although I'm happy to plug your show at any time.

37:25I was there at the inception. What drew you to being on that side of the microphone? You had given many speeches. You had been interviewed. You were probably the most public face of private equity for a long time. And then you turned around and started asking questions. It isn't like I hired McKinsey and said, tell me what I can do to be more visible. It happens like most things in life by happenstance. So what happened was Carlisle had big events, 1 ,000 people, 1 ,500 people. We want to have people come to these events. And so I was hiring people that would be a draw. I wasn't the draw. So I would hire former presidents of the United States, former secretaries of state.

38:01You pay them a speaking fee and they would come. But they were often boring. And so people were looking at their watches and they couldn't wait until the speech was over. So I said to the speaking agent, you think I could interview these people? Would they make a difference? And, you know, I think I could liven up and use some humor. And they said, is the fee going to be the same? I said, the fee is the same. So I said, they're happy to do it because they don't have to prepare a speech. So I started having these people come. I interviewed them. I made people look funny or then weren't so funny and made people look charming.

38:27And then I became the president of the Economic Club of Washington. Vernon Jordan asked me to succeed him. And I was supposed to get business people to come in and speak. And they were boring. So I finally said, well, I'll just interview them. And then Bloomberg, after about five years of this, heard about it. They saw it. And they said, let's make a show out of it. I remember at the kickoff, I said, what are you going to call the show? They said, they're going to call it the David Rubenstein Show, peer-to-peer David Rubenstein Show. I said, you think a long Jewish ethnic name is going to work?

38:50And Mike Bloomberg said, no, it's not a problem. so now it's been 10 years and we have two shows of peer-to-peer and then there's one more finance oriented wealth with david rubenside i've enjoyed it and what i like is the intellectual challenge of talking to other people but i prepare as you obviously do as well and preparing gives you you know an opportunity to learn more about people and one of the things i'm trying to do is this when you reach a certain age you always begin to worry are you losing it so i'm trying to figure what I can do to keep my brain active. And one of the things I can do is interview people.

39:22I do it regularly. I'm preparing for it. I'm intellectually challenging with these people when I talk to them. And so it keeps me busy. And also a lot of the times I'm interviewing authors. And authors, I think as a courtesy, should read the book when you're interviewing them. So I'm reading a lot of books all the time. And I'm hoping it keeps my brain sharp. We'll see. So let's talk a little bit more about the intellectual challenge of baseball. So this is a business that you're obviously familiar You're, as a fan growing up in Baltimore, you're aware of it. You've talked to your friends who were team owners, but now you're in it.

39:55What have you learned so far that has surprised you about the business of baseball? Well, first, everybody should remember, these are small businesses relative to the businesses that the big buyout firms typically buy. So there's no baseball team that has revenues of a billion dollars or two billion dollars. Earlier today, Carlisle announced a deal where we're buying a company, a spin out from an automobile supplier. It's about a billion and a half revenue company or something like that. Those are not considered all that big. We've bought companies in the buyout world. We bought a company with Blackstone at the Helmand and Freeman for$36 billion a few years ago.

40:28These are big companies and gigantic revenues. When you buy a baseball team, you're buying a team that might have$100 million,$200 million of revenue. So they're small businesses, relatively speaking, but they're businesses that get an enormous amount of attention. So you've got sports writers who are spending all their time trying to figure out whether you're doing something right or wrong. And the amount of coverage is enormous. So you're under a microscope when you own a team. And if you say something wrong or do something wrong, everybody's going to criticize you. It's also hard to please everybody.

40:53So what I've learned is people really have a fanatical care for their local team. Two, you've got to be very careful what you say about the team publicly because everybody's paying attention to everything you say and anything you might do. I also learned that it can be fun. Everybody likes to win in life and people don't like to lose. And so if you win more than you lose, it's good. But I recognized that the team that my partners and I bought was in pretty good shape when we bought it on the ascendancy. How do you think the business of baseball will evolve? You've made a living, a very good living, investing in things that grow in value.

41:24I know that, as you mentioned, this is an asset that is, you know, part of financial purchase and part of philanthropic one. But you do want the overall business to grow. How do you affect that? And how do you think it should go? Well, baseball was considered the national pastime for a long time. And then obviously the NFL came along and NBA and they have taken a lot of TV dollars away from baseball and fan support away from baseball. Baseball is a sport that has an enormous number of ingrained supporters, but it also doesn't have everything you want. For example, right now, probably of the major league baseball players, maybe seven or eight percent are African-American.

42:04and maybe the fan base is 4 % African-American. So it's relatively small because a lot of African-American young boys are now playing basketball and football and that's a sport that is attracting more people. One of the ways that baseball has got more African-American boys playing is to do things in the youth leagues in parts of cities that they're going to likely have young African-American boys playing. But also, as you probably know, in some parts of Latin America, baseball is a religion. And so in the Orioles case, we have a training facility down in the Dominican Republic and we're not the only ones that do that as well.

42:35So you've got to get people engaged. We have to make sure the fan base is not aging too much. I think the fan base could be younger and I'd like to try to get the fan base younger in Baltimore. That's all the thing I can focus on. I also want to make sure that people are bringing their children there because they want to educate their young children about baseball and help them kind of feel about baseball as many people my age do because they were brought up with baseball. Now many young kids are not brought up on baseball as much as they used to be. It's not easy to do. Baseball is not as international a sport as probably basketball is.

43:07The NFL is trying to become a global sport as well, going to Europe and doing other things there. Baseball is played overseas, of course, but it doesn't have the overseas residence yet that I hope it ultimately will have. David, you've been really good in your career over the last 40 years of taking a big idea, hiring a great team, and then executing. If you had that same challenge in baseball, and I think Rob Manford belongs in the Hall of Fame just for the time clock alone. I mean, that was an incredible move for a game. What are two or three things, if you were commissioner for a day, that you would focus on to make the game livelier?

43:39Well, I'm nervous about answering that question directly because I'm the newest owner in baseball. So for the newest owner of 30 owners to say, here's what baseball should do, it's probably going to get me in trouble. So all I want to say is all the other owners are much more experienced. They know much more than I do. It's a diverse group of people in some respects in terms of their backgrounds. I would say baseball, I think, wants to appeal to younger people than it does now. It wants to expand the television audience that it currently has. I think it would like to expand overseas a bit if it can, but that's obviously going to take some time.

44:10And I also think it probably liked to, you know, find more ways to get the game into people's homes, either through streaming or other kinds of devices that enable people to watch it, even if they don't go to the game. So David, I am interested because you've done a fantastic job in identifying great talent. Again, for our audience, it's very entrepreneur driven. What are some of the qualities you look for when you hire someone young, man or woman, for one of your companies? Well, you're always looking for somebody who's reasonably intelligent. Don't have to be a genius. Geniuses are hard to manage.

44:39Reasonably intelligent, hardworking. They have a sense of willing to cooperate with other people. They know how to share the credit. They also have people that know how to get along with other people and give orders in a way that isn't offending other people. You want people who are ethical as well. You don't want people that are cutting ethical corners. You want people that other people want to be around. And so I've made a lot of hirings over the years. Some people worked out well, some people didn't work out well. I hired a young man years ago, nice man, and he now is the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board.

45:09I didn't realize that Jay Powell would be the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. I heard another young man one time, and he later became the governor of Virginia by Glenn Youngkin. So sometimes you make very good decisions about young people. Sometimes, you know, not everything works out. You want to hire me? Of course. I have no future. But I don't know if I could do a 10-year contract. I don't know. You know, when you're hiring people, you really want people that you can work with, that you think that you enjoy talking to, and you can listen to them, and they will listen to you. And, you know, you want to have a good working relationship with people.

45:42Was there one particular deal over the last 20 years in sports that you said, boy, if I can have that one back, which one is that deal? Yeah. The greatest sports deal, I think, financial deal that was ever done was done in the last couple of years when a number of people who were at Guggenheim bought the LA Dodgers. Because they structured it in a way where they didn't have to write, I think, a personal check. I think the purchase price was roughly$2.1 billion or something like that. They didn't put up that much equity. They put in a modest amount relative to what it's now worth. So that was one of the best deals of all time.

46:12One of the best deals you could say is also the New York Yankees. I think in 1972, when CBS sold it for roughly$10 million to George Steinbrenner, if I have it correct, I think he put in$250 ,000 of his own money, and he syndicated the rest. And, you know, the franchise is probably worth$5 to$7 billion today. And I think if I got it right, they only put in$250 ,000 initially. Now it's a long time ago, but still, it's a pretty good deal. Well, and they've, you know, paid some players along the way, you know, to pretty good In fact, our hometown is not a test tube. 90 miles northeast of Nashville, a battle for the future of America plays out in one small town.

46:51Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land. We need cities on a shining hill. This is Our Town, a podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back. Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

47:22All right, so we're going to move to the last portion of the interview, which is a rapid-fire round. So you can just answer as quickly as you want. I'll start and then you can pick up. What would you say is one word to describe your deal-making style? Modest. What's more important, your gut instincts or data in making big decisions? Instinct. What's the hardest part of deal-making, the beginning, middle, or the close? The close, for sure. Who's your dream deal-making partner? Well, the people that bought the Minnesota Timberwolves. They did a pretty good deal, I would say. So I'd like to have those people on my side.

47:58What's the best deal you've ever made? Best deal I ever made was probably deciding to start Carlisle and hiring the people that did it at the outset. That was the best business thing I ever did. What's the best piece of advice you've received on deal-making? Always try to remember what the other side needs to do, and so they have to come away with a victory as well. You can't make it too one-sided. What's the worst advice you've been given? Trust your own instincts only. What's your hype song before you go into a big meeting? My Way, Frank Sinatra. That's good. You can only watch one sport for the rest of your life.

48:31What sport would it be? Major League Baseball. this is a very easy one what team do you want to see win a championship more than anything the Baltimore Orioles number one the Duke Blue Devils number two one fun fact about you that your colleagues would be surprised about hearing about that I am a great athlete and that I actually I try not to show this when I play tennis or with other people but I am actually a spectacular athlete but I try to hide it from people David it has been our pleasure to have you thank you for My pleasure. Congratulations on your success. And thank you for having me. It's good to be on the same network as you.

49:05Thank you very much. Thank you, David. The Deal is a production from Bloomberg Podcasts and Bloomberg Originals. The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly. Our producers are Anna Mazarakis, Stacey Wong, and Lizzie Phillip. Original music and engineering by Blake Maples. Our managing editor is David E. Ravella. Our executive producers are Jason Kelly, Brendan Francis Newnham, Jordan Opplinger, Trey Shallowhorn, Kyle Kramer, Andrew Barden, Kelly Laferriere, and Ashley Honig. Sage Bauman is our head of podcasts. Additional support from Rachel Scaramazzino and Elena Sosangeles. Joshua DeVoe is our director of photography.

49:49Rubab Shakir is our creative director. Art direction is from Jacqueline Kessler. Casting by Julia Manns. Our associate producer is Natasha Abelard. Camera operation by Jesse Riddner, Tassin Rabbi, and Suma Hussain. Our gaffer is Julia Goweski, and our grip is Megan Miller. Our production assistant is Gabriela Demetace. Alex Diaconis is our video editor. Listen to The Deal on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also tune in to the video companion on Bloomberg Originals and on Bloomberg TV. Thanks for listening.

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