The PWHL is Just Getting Started With Hilary Knight

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0:42Welcome back to the deal. I'm Jason Kelly alongside Alex Rodriguez coming up on the show, Hillary Knight. So this is arguably one of the best hockey players on the planet. You know her from the Olympics. You know her from carrying the American flag in the closing ceremony. She's the captain of that team. What I think is so interesting, Alex, is unfortunately, up until this point, we've only really been able to pay attention to female hockey players when the Olympics were on. Well, now there's a professional league. We know about it because our friend Billie Jean King and Alana, they backed the PWHL.

1:16And it is going gangbusters. I was super impressed with her. And she's got a lot of ambition for herself and the league. What did you think? You know, Jason, I could not help as I was speaking with her with you that she reminded me of Grand Hill, Hall of Fame Grand Hill from the NBA. Yeah. The reason why is like she has like this evergreen talent that everybody wants. She's going to have opportunities to do TV, ownership, players, like whatever. She's almost going to have an embarrassment of choices. But what I also love about her is she's the epitome of a modern-day athlete where they love business.

1:52They're prepping for life after their sport, way before they retire. And there's a trend that's moving in the right direction. And they have the ambition, and they have the knowledge, and they want to do it. And I think she's perfectly positioned for life after hockey. Yeah, it's interesting you make that comparison to Grant Hill. I think you can also go even further back and think about some of the NBA players in the 1980s who were hitting a league as it was really catching fire. And that's what's happening with her with the PWHL. Since we recorded this episode, the PWHL, which, of course, is owned by Mark Walters and his family of Dodgers and Lakers fame, they have brought on additional investors into, you know, as they say, the top co into the league.

2:40This is our sense in anticipation of ultimately selling the franchises. We know that that's their eventual goal. They really have this business running on all cylinders. And hockey is having a super interesting moment culturally. And I just – I love talking to her. I loved her ambition. I loved you guys sort of trading notes on what happens next for an athlete in business. I'm really excited to see what's going to happen. And from Mark Walter's point of view, you can't have a better finance, more capable human being to start a league. Just look at what he's done with the Dodgers and what he will do with the Lakers.

3:16Exactly. It's interesting. She's been playing for Seattle, but now there was a sign and trade deal as part of expansion. She's going to be playing in Detroit. Great hockey town. And we really expect that she's going to raise her profile even more. Coming up, Hillary Knight.

3:42welcome back to the deal i'm jason kelly alongside alex rodriguez and i love these where it's like game respects game hillary knight joins us truly one of the goats of the game of hockey what a treat we've watched you over the years we watched you win a gold medal uh not that long ago now probably feels like a long time for you since so much has happened uh in the intervening time. So welcome to the deal. Yeah, thanks for having me. It feels like yesterday, right? The gold medal. Does it? Yeah, yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes. And then when I'm doing something athletic, I'm like, wow, it's been three weeks into the offseason here.

4:20I should kind of get back on the horse. Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of the offseason, I mean, it's such a fascinating time for professional hockey, especially women's professional hockey. it feels like that something really special and interesting is happening. Finally, I dare say, with a professional women's hockey league, it's happening. So give us a sense of what it feels like on the inside and whether it does feel like, wow, okay, we're doing this. Cause you've been a part of this for a long time. Yeah. Well, I think first off, we're, we just finished year three, right? So we're very much so in the infancy and comparative to other professional leagues out there.

5:02And I know our salaries were recently published and people were like, oh my gosh, they're so low. And yeah, they are low, but they also are like a starting point for us to continue to build and grow and deepen our CBA when that becomes available to renegotiate. But yeah, I think for so long, we craved investment and we needed a structure of investment in a vehicle to get us to that sustainability level. And we found that in the Mark and Kimber Walter their group. And it's been phenomenal to see where professional hockey has grown in such a short amount of time. All right. So let's jump right in there because I know Alex and I both have a lot of questions about that deal.

5:39That is the deal that sort of sets this all in motion. We were fortunate to have Billie Jean and Alana on our show. It's now a couple of years ago. And they were talking about sort of the development of that. And keep me honest on the history here, you and some other star players had essentially said, we're not playing until we have real confidence that there is a sustainable financial investment into this league. How did Mark and his family and Billie Jean and Alana ultimately, how did they convince you that they were for real? Yeah, well, honestly, and that's true. We sort of embarked on something called the Dream Gap Tour, which we sort of curated an experience for the players to give them resources, some sort of training stipend to continue that programming so people wouldn't be left without or absent from playing games because we have to continue that development piece.

6:36So we embarked on the DreamGap tour for a handful of years, COVID hit, we were able to float ourselves. And honestly, Billie Jean King and Alana Kloss brokering that deal and getting us in the right rooms to find the right vehicle. And the whole foundation of the conversation was we want to provide a professional experience to the players. And that's something that we lacked for forever, right? I think if we're looking back and reflecting, we really had a lot of semi-pro leagues and a lot of just one-off sort of endorsements or trying to capitalize on a moment versus strategic investing. And so when we had those conversations, I think at first we were a little apprehensive because the hockey world is very insular and different, right?

7:19There's a lot of nuances to the sport and to have an investor that doesn't necessarily know that world right off the hop. We're like, oh, my gosh, you know, how is this going to work out? But to have advisors and guidance from Billie Jean King, and she's been through it many different times before. And then also the promise that we're going to provide a professional league and we're going to give it enough gas and enough legs to be able to carry itself for many, many years was extremely exciting for us. Yeah, Billie Jean and Alana are just incredible. They're forces of nature, and they work so well together.

7:50Going to Mark Walter, who's a partner, he's a governor in the NBA, when you see what Mark Walter's built at Guggenheim in like 25 years, it's incredible. Then he goes to the Dodgers and takes them from basically bankruptcy to the greatest franchise in the sport. And now he's bought the Lakers for$10 billion. Everything he touches turns into gold. But when Alana and Billie Jean put you in the room with Mark, what was it about Mark that impressed you that you said, this is the right person for us or the right group for us to follow? Yeah, I think just the authenticity of the promise, right? And knowing someone who's done it before and having that experience with the MLS like previously when it's a very, very much so a startup league, right?

8:30And being able to move, I guess, in a non-traditional way while also having inlays that were traditional from his sports experience and other backgrounds was really exciting. So it was sort of this like one, two punch approach that we could really be dynamic in the spaces that we wanted to move in, the doors that needed to be open. And obviously a massive strategic investment to be able to give this self, these, these things wings. And yeah, it's, it's crazy to see the growth in such a short amount of time. And I think just like as a player, when you're in it and you're so close to it, we're expanding this year, another, another few teams, right?

9:06It's like, what are we doing? But we're already going to be at 12. Like, that's insane. So it just goes to show the promise and the commitment that this group has and where they want to take the sport, which is incredible. And so when you go into that room, Hillary, what are you asking for specifically? Like you've seen what doesn't work. And so what are the key components to the business from a player's perspective? Yeah, and the simple answer is everything, right? We did not have really any structure to be able to support ourselves outside of what we're doing with our existing partnerships. and it wasn't enough money to give us the length and the depth that we needed.

9:43And so for many years, and we still don't necessarily have spaces that are created for us quite yet. So that's what's exciting with expansion. It's like, you know, how close are we to breaking ground on our own practice facility? Or where are we plugging in to, you know, some of these major arenas and venues? So that's super exciting. But yeah, I mean, I think health insurance was a huge starting point for us. some sort of wage that, you know, livable, right, that people could make a career out of, because we had such a big drop off. If you weren't on any of the national teams after college, it's like, what do I do now?

10:20So we're losing a ton of talent. And then just the all the things that go into one professional athlete being successful, right? Like we're talking medical, business ops, hockey ops, the marketing structures, you name it. It really was this whole puzzle piece that we were able to put together. Yeah. And just following up on what Jason just said, Hilary, like when you're in these rooms, you're in like the top, top, top tier of like intelligence, people that can actually grow a business and scale it across the planet. But people don't know you want two titles of Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, And then you got your MBA.

10:57When you think about your MBA, how much comfort does that bring to you that you're in a room like this, that you can actually handle yourself the way you have so beautifully? I think, honestly, between the NBA and just being on a team sport and being around team sports, I felt really prepared because we were with so many amazing people. And you really figure out whose strengths you're relying on and what you can bring to the table and how you tap into those individual strengths and then collective strengths. But I would say going back to school was good because I understood a little bit more of the lingo.

11:32And, you know, that's where I think I was a little bit excited about the law piece because that's a completely different kind of jargon in itself. So it was a really eye-opening experience and a really good personal growth experience as well to just learn from these amazing people. But I think the biggest thing at the end of the day is you think you're just an athlete, right? And you're like, oh, I don't, it's sort of that imposter system. You're like, oh, what am I doing over here? And then you quickly realize like how many of those life, those skills that you learn in sport are life skills and so applicable to not only just life, but, you know, any industry in general.

12:08And so that was really exciting to experience that. Oh boy. She just hit a key square in the Alex Rodriguez bingo card, imposter syndrome. Alex, you've had these exact same experiences when you go into these rooms. right? Oh, yeah. And somebody that came on our podcast, Steve Young, who we both love and admire so much, he talked about it. And he's reached the pinnacle both in the football field with titles and Super Bowls. And he's also part of almost a$10 billion private equity fund. And he's a partner. And to this day, and I believe Steve is now north of 60, he's still experiencing it. But it's okay to talk about it, because that's how you kind of get past that moment.

12:49So I love that you set that.

13:20or at BloombergLive.com slash SBS-Singapore.

13:32So, Hillary, take us into the more recent past, where you're going from negotiating for health insurance, and within a matter of a couple years, you're playing to us you're playing in front of a sold out crowd at madison square garden like the world's most famous arena we're all familiar like what are the two or three things that provide that level of jump yeah um well one i think having the best product right i think at the end of the day like you're selling a product and that's your players and you want to showcase them the best their ability and you need to provide those things and those resources to continue to

14:18evolve, whether it's your superstars or your depth players. So I think they've done a tremendous job of being able to plug away at that. But then also, I think one of the smartest things, and I know it's a little bit different up in Canada, but because hockey is still very much growing in the United States, providing a free live stream that is like a cable level quality and caliber to fans so we can get introduced to new fans and also continue to secure sort of those fan bases that have always existed but now can exist consistently. And they know where to go and they know where to find the best players sort of in the world, duking it out night in and night out.

15:01So those were the two things top of mind. But, you know, there's so many things that go into supporting us on this stage. And if you look like year one, we're kind of figuring it out, right? Like we're disrupting our own industry. And then year two, we kind of have a good feel and a sense of that. And then knowing it's an Olympic year too and how many more eyeballs we can capture and continue that awesome momentum from the world's greatest spectacle and track them back to what we're doing was just a huge success point for the league. And I think that that went well, as you saw at Madison Square Garden.

15:36Yeah. So talk about the Olympic side of this, because, you know, when I think about the the success of. You know, the NWSL, for instance, you know, clearly there are a lot of parallels here, But that sort of stage and the exposure, for lack of a better term, that the Olympics provide. Tell us more about the Olympic experience, because you've got two gold medals under your belt. How does that translate for you, both as a player who wants to continue her professional career, but also as a business in and of yourself? Yeah, I think they just shine a brighter spotlight on what we're doing. and there's this different type of fan that watches the Olympics in most cases.

16:24And so what was happening before is we would have this amazing spectacle, U.S. Canada, the awesome games, the heartbreakers, the success stories, and then we would disappear and then wait for another four years and we would build that momentum back up. So what was different about this time through is we had a league. And so I think that excitement was building throughout the season, right? And then because we had such an amazing Olympics, all the countries did, people were really excited about continuing to watch and see how those storylines unfolded. So the storylines just, I think there's just way more buzz around it, way more excitement.

17:01I think if I'm looking back, sort of the flurry of media leading up to, for me, was crazy. It was almost like I didn't have any time in my afternoon available, which is a great thing, right? It's a good problem to have. But yeah, people were really interested in what we're doing. And so I think the league did a fantastic job of telling those stories. And it's really hard if you're not an NBC partner to figure out how you plug into that massive event. They did a beautiful job of doing that. So, Hillary, talking now as governor of the WNBA team, the Minnesota Lynx, and seeing all the momentum you've experienced, I mean, literally, you've had a shotgun seat.

17:38Like, you've been watching this firsthand from the CBA collective bargain agreement to starting a new league to being one of the best players in the world. What advice would you give my partners and I as far as building, continuing to build the WNBA, whether it's sponsorship, what should we be telling our TV partners? What should we do with ticketing, partnerships? Overall, what advice would you give us? Yeah, I think it's not necessarily a moment, but a momentum piece, right? And that investment has to be strategic and authentic. And I think the biggest and the coolest thing about just women's sports in specific, if we put them in a silo, is the storytelling piece.

18:14And I think that's what's disruptive about them. And that's what gets fans even more engaged and involved, not only in the business side, but also a personal player side as well. And so that's what's been really exciting to see. So I'd say just authentic storytelling and starting there and figuring out how those partnerships really elevate the product, but then also the players' massive storylines that they can bring in. Because at the end of the day, we're all entertainers, right? And so I'm tuning in to watch that because I know about sort of the back end of what's going on. And that's exciting to me.

18:45And I want to see how everything unplays. And I think now just with, you know, the way broadcast and streams are going, sports are such a massive and interesting thing to tune into. Right. So it's it's really exciting to see the sports space evolve. All right. Well, speaking of viewership, it would not be a hockey conversation if we didn't talk about probably the biggest storyline in hockey, men's or women's, over the past couple of years, which is heated rivalry. Heard of it. So, I mean, one of the fascinating things, Hillary, that that we saw with that is something that we you sort of alluded to this, which is sports is this kind of like cultural common language.

19:29and this notion that, you know, sports and culture, I mean, it's sort of the basis of this entire show, sports, business, and culture. But with something like Heated Rivalry, like it pushes hockey into the zeitgeist and sort of the everyday conversation in a way that it hadn't been, at least for a time. Is there a way to capitalize on that sort of interest that, you know, people are just talking about hockey in general? And what do you make of that whole phenomenon? Yeah, I think it was probably one of the best things to happen to the sport in general, if I'm just going to blanket statement, because I think sometimes I'm looking at the sport and I think we're a little bit behind the times.

20:12Right. And I think it's wonderful to continue to have conversations and create more spaces for all sorts of different types of people who want to be fans of the sport that we all love. Right. And I think heater rivalry was an awesome talking point and a great, easy way to jump into a conversation that people might feel scared about having a conversation about queer community. Right. And intersectionality of hockey, because, you know, we want to create these safer spaces. And, you know, it is a very insulated culture at times. And so I think it was great to kind of open the door and shine a little bit of light in different areas and continue that dialogue.

20:49And also, I mean, it's an entertainment piece. I mean, it's awesome. Totally. We rarely get great like hockey movies. So I think we're all fans whenever a hockey entertainment piece comes out and you're like, okay. And by the way, I will sort of as an aside, when I met Connor Story in person, I was like, hey, where's the Russian accent? Like, that's how good this guy was, right? Yeah. It's like, what's going on? And so, yeah, it's funny you bring this up because I actually just a jersey arrived this morning. No way. So that was pretty cool. Yeah. So Hillary and Jason, recently I was reading this article and it was predicting that by the year 2040, all the sports teams, the franchises are going to be some of the biggest production companies in the world.

21:37which to your point about sports being uh the great ai trade but also experiences what's happening in new york right now it's like mind-blowing with the next it's all stories that we want more and more and more of and we just can't get enough so i think your uh your forecast is spot on and so hillary like but sort of putting some of those things together i mean you you are the face of the sport i'm not saying that as a like just to flatter you it's true like I mean, you're the most famous player in your game. And so with that comes a certain measure of responsibility, which clearly you exercised in getting this league started.

22:15What's the next thing that you think you can do? And maybe it is on the storytelling front or the media front or whatever that may be. What's something you can do, especially while we're going to talk about what you do after you play in a minute. But while you're still playing, what are the things that you feel like you can do to keep the sport front of mind? Yeah, I think honestly, just imparting what I've learned on younger players and getting them to a level where they're comfortable to be their own advocate. And they're comfortable pushing the envelope and continue to ask questions and sort of disrupt the space as we go along, because I think that's a very healthy growth.

22:53And I think we're going to need these young, bright minds to challenge things in a very constructive way to continue to push the sport forward and also get what they've earned along the way. Right. And so that's something I think that's top of mind right now for me is that education piece. But, yeah, it's exciting. I feel like the doors are wide open of, you know, what's the next thing that I can do in the sport? And I'm sort of sifting through what I want to do because I love building. And I think I have a gift to be able to kind of see what's coming along and figuring out what problem I can solve for the future.

23:32And that's super exciting to me.

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24:16So, Hillary, I think you have a lot of gifts. And I think Jason, she reminds me of our mutual friend, Grant Hill. And Grant Hill is a Hall of Fame basketball player, Hillary, who went to Duke, had a Hall of Fame basketball career, now is an owner of Team Sports, multiple, also is a top guy in TV, one of the top guys in TV. He has a real estate empire. So I think your challenge is going to be you'll be pulled in so many directions with so many opportunities. But I think if I can just ask you this one question, in a dream world, what would Hillary and I be doing in five years? And you can wear multiple hats.