AI & Creativity | Nik Kleverov Breaks Limiting Beliefs in Hollywood

28:29If we want to be successful as a filmmaker, show host, or even a teacher, you have to sit there and understand what your job is. And if you have to do a lesson plan until 12 AM, then you have to do a lesson plan till 12 AM because the, the, the payoff is those kids learning and you see it after it's done. And so I just wanted to hit on that point because you said it so eloquently and I just, you know, I was going deeper than just the story and thinking about is like, man, this is literally he's talking about success. Yeah. I mean, I look at things with a greater vision and, you know, I'm, I feel like everything is always serving that kind of main goal.

29:15And in times of difficulty, when I do feel like giving up, or it feels like, man, this is just too hard. I think about, well, okay, what would happen if I stop this? Am I just going to have to do this anyway? Again, like another time? I mean, well, I might as well just eat the frog and do it now. You know, they say like, just, just get it done. And, you know, I'm personally not, but my grandfather on my dad's side, he was a soldier. He was actually a very famous ace pilot. He shot down like 47 Nazi planes in World War II. Wow. The only time I talked, I never really got to meet him because he stayed in Russia.

29:57And, And, you know, so anyway, my dad was a soldier and all. So I do think like I just got to be a soldier right now. And I just have to suck it up and do what I'm here to do. You know, conditions are not always perfect. You still got to make things happen. Like if this is my job, like if this is the fight I'm fighting, then I have to just do it. And no one cares about my complaints. And, you know, the result is the only thing that matters. there's a certain level of resilience that is built up in human beings in general. You know, you were a baby, but you're, you know, you're an immigrant, your family, you know, immigrated here.

30:40Everyone I meet that is an immigrant or, you know, their parents, you know, were immigrants before they had them here. They, they operate differently. They, they understand that what needs to be done needs to be done. And I don't have an option. And I don't know if today's generation in the States really feel that way. I mean, again, that could be a sweeping generalization. Okay. But from what I'm seeing, those are two different subsets of people. One subset looks for the easier way. The other cohort goes, I'm going all in on this because that's my job. And there's no method of retreat. It's like, this is the play.

31:27I'm running it. Yeah. I'd like to think we all have it in us and we could try to unlock that and find that determination within. I was listening to your episode about, you know, men's health and, you know, you guys are talking about getting up and you're just like, I'm just going to get up at four and do the workout and that it's done and I've got it taken care of. Like, I actually really want to find that myself still, you know, I have a passion for fitness in the sense that I like running. I like basketball. I do love to lift. I feel so good when I lift, but because I schedule and what I do, I'm lucky if I lift once a week.

32:07And it's just, you know, it's kind of like you have these stops and starts. And then I listen to that from you guys. I'm like, man, I got to find this within my, myself. Cause I get up at six, right? I got a kid, I got the school thing, but can I just push myself to, to figure out a way to prioritize my health and you know that's inspiring to me so so in the same way that yeah okay maybe I figured out how to push past some of my problems and do things I think we all have it in us somewhere to find that and to grasp onto it and I know that every time I have found it you know with fitness specifically I feel so good and then you lose it and then it's like you got to work your way back to it.

32:50It's, it's funny because, you know, and I appreciate that. Thank you for listening to that. I think you're talking about the Jeff Delaney episode and that dude, that dude changed my life. Yeah. Change, change everything for me. And the reason I say my life is because everything shifted when I got better through the support from them, right? Like my weight, my nutrition, everything. And it's just like this, man, you know, I look at everything as you know it's not always 4 a.m it's not always if i don't have recordings i'm sleeping till six i'm gonna take care of my kids i'm in the gym by seven and i'm i'm home by 8 45 like i'm i'm not stupid if i got an opportunity to sleep seven eight hours nick i'm taking that shit right all day long but for the most part it's like if i get up and i do this hard thing that hurts so badly mentally and physically like this morning was a 4 a.m and i'm really don't want to do this but how much better am I going to be in a month?

33:48If I stack up certain things that I don't want to do that, I think I don't have time for, how's this going to enhance what I do on camera? One, I'm going to look better. Two, I mean, actually one is my mind works better. The conversations are better. I'm smarter, right? I'm quicker on my feet. And then two, yeah, I'll look better, but everybody likes to start with looking better and that never holds, right it's like how can this enhance my filmmaking career right it's like okay well i'm up at six so i'm gonna get up at four i'm gonna try it two days this week i get up before i'm gonna go to gym i'll be back help my son out before he gets before he goes to school and then you'll start to find just like with anything you get on a roll right and it's about creating time yeah and that's hard though, man.

34:39It is. And, you know, as someone that's always trying to tell myself to work smarter and not harder, working hard has just been a default setting for me. Like I will just pound the pavement and make something happen kind of against all odds. So I think there is something about that, but it is also about maybe bridging the gap and finding the balance of also So do I really need to be doing that now? And I've had a lot of clarity actually, because I've been at this a long time, right? Like I've only kind of become this AI guy in the last few years, really. And, you know, for many people, they're like, oh, you're successful, this, that.

35:24And I'm like, man, like what I do has not changed that much. It's just, I've always been a fan of technology. I've always been interested in what technology can do to enhance storytelling. And so when I first found out about AI, you know, within storytelling and text to image and got in early with OpenAI, and, you know, we were one of the first creative agencies doing some work for them. Funny enough, some of that early work was not AI. It was documentary storytelling to talk about how AI can improve lives and things. And so it was a lot of filming people and talking to people and doing interviews.

36:00Um, but, but, you know, it's, it's kind of wild to think about what's happened for me in the last couple of years. I mean, it's been an absolute world when, you know, I did spend my twenties being on stages and doing music. So I kind of understand how to be in front of a crowd, but, you know, now I'm, I'm, I I think I've done 65 to 70 talks this year, you know, paired with what's from last year. You know, I'm definitely over 100, probably at 150. And it's like, that wasn't a normal part of my day or my, you know. So now I've got to balance making the things, doing the things, you know, overseeing the other people on my team that are making other things.

36:47and I've got to work on my talking, my presence. You know, I always have to be learning, which is great. I actually really enjoy that. But, you know, in our landscape, there's tools coming out every day. So then I have to surround myself with people that are smarter than me that can tell me about, hey, here's these tools and here's what's happening. And so I can keep, say, educated because even that's a full-time job. I mean, I'm balancing so much, but at the end of the day, I'm like, no, I still have to keep going towards this goal. And my goal is to tell stories that connect with people. And so I've kind of taken this path, you know, I've like bashed my way in to the creative field, into Hollywood, you know, and into the brand.

37:34It's come mostly through the brand world. Like most of what I do is still brand storytelling. You know, we work with Delta, we work with Virgin, we work with Coca-Cola, we work with incredible Fortune 100s, 500s, but we also work with startups and kind of everyone in between. And I've had the great fortune of really refining and honing my storytelling abilities to get to this point, which is where we are now, which is, wait, we're actually making our own original project, our own original IP, our own original film, which is Critters, that OpenAI is lacking. this would have never happened before AI.

38:09So, so when people talk about AI and they, you know, there's criticisms about AI, we've hired more people than ever since AI started. We're doing more projects than ever. We're doing them quicker so that we could do even more projects. And now we have two original projects going. One is the Critters film with, with open AI. And another one is a animated series adult a cartoon series called beta earth that adobe has supported and we partnered with a writer producer from modern family to put that together so it's like dude we are living in this insane golden age of opportunity where storytellers can you know really thrive i mean if you have an idea and the the gusto to make it happen anything is possible right now.

38:57I think it's interesting. And so let's start going down the rabbit hole of AI here, because for a lot of people, like everyday people, you know, like I would say parents, right? Their only exposure to AI is like making sure that their kids aren't doing their homework on chat GPT, right? Like they're, they're making sure and teachers are cross-checking things to make sure that it's not AI generated, but there's like, to your point, there's a massive thing going on right now with, you know, critters and in creating films with AI tools and technology. Can you walk the audience through some of the, you know, the things that you're working on and how that's all put together?

39:36Because there's so much more to AI than what we deal with on the street every day. And I just think the capabilities of it are insane. And then I'm sure that'll take us on another direction too, because I do have a lot of questions about AI. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about AI. And there's kind of three main takeaways that I have, which is one, there is no magic button. A lot of the hate that I see for AI is because people think that you walk in and you press a button and a thing comes out and it's done. that could not be further from the truth. It is still hard to make good things.

40:18You still need the brightest minds around you to figure things out. Now there's, there's been a lot of headline chasing. Could you make something in a weekend by yourself? Yeah, maybe. But that's why when I was announced as one of the first seven artists to be using Sora, open AI's text to video technology back in March, 2024, we all had kind of our different, you know, demos or tests. And the test that I put out was a lot of advertising type ideas. I put in a shoe, I put in a soda can, I, you know, it was like, yes, filmmaking, of course, but how is this going to change the business of storytelling?

41:04And that is, that is advertising. What's going to happen? And, And I knew there's a big difference between doing something by yourself on a weekend or doing something with a real client partner. And so I knew I had to find a client partner to make a real project with, which is how we found Toys R Us, you know, post PE. So I knew I wanted like a really iconic legacy name, a huge American company that had that cachet, but also was small enough to move. Because I also know corporate America very well. There's lots of stakeholders. There's lots of approvals. And for something like AI, you know, especially at the nascent, you know, forget about it.

41:45Only now are things starting to change. But back then, I was like, how am I going to achieve this balance? And we found an incredible partner in Toys R Us. And so we created the first ever AI ad. And it was for Toys R Us. It went incredibly viral. We reached over a billion and a half people. And it was a big moment because it spurred a lot of conversation about, is this possible? Like, oh, wait, you can actually use AI to do storytelling, to do marketing, to do advertising. Now, the issue is the naysayers, they don't know what was involved to make it. A lot of them just think like I typed in make commercial and then it made something.

42:31we that is also why it is so critical to release case studies and behind the scenes now for all of our projects because we showed all the people that worked on it um it was probably shy of 20 people that worked on that we had a real closer and a real musician re-sing the iconic toys r us song i had to do thousands of generations because even in that early technology there was no image input now you can input an image make that image move back when i was doing that you had to just type, type, type, type, type, type. And so try to type out an anthropomorphic giraffe with bars instead of spots. You know, it was a monumental task.

43:08And I certainly had moments where I was just like, my God, it would be so much easier to pick up a camera and shoot this scene of this kid just standing up and walking. But, you know, we'd made the decision to go on this journey with AI And we did it. And since then, you know, a lot has changed for us. We've kind of become known for AI storytelling, AI commercials. And so since then, you know, we have done AI stuff with lots of really big companies, which is exciting. And after our commercial, Choys R Us, you know, that opened the door for Coca-Cola to make their first Christmas ad. And now, you know, I drive down Sunset and I see, I'm like, that's AI, that's AI.

43:48You know, I can start seeing and telling what's happening. But it is still the same creative storytelling process. There is no magic button that you press and it makes a thing. By the way, the services that tout that there are, go do it. It's not the same quality of work. and as the tools all catch up with each other and become better and better and more ubiquitous, it's the artist's job to keep pushing the boundary of what's pop. Starting something new is straight up scary. I remember thinking, what if this fails? What if nobody listens? But taking that leap changed everything and having Shopify on your side makes it a whole lot easier.

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45:27I have done a couple solo projects. None of them turn out as good as when I'm with my people. I'm balancing ideas. I'm talking about this. I'm talking about that. We're using AI to create shots or to set looks and then animate them or bring them to life. But there's all the same people still collaborating, still making something happen. And it's really comes down to the story, which is the third big thing. And we've talked about this now, Sean, is that storytelling, the human connection, the human relatability that storytellers will win in this space. If you have a distinct POV, if you have a story to tell, you will be successful if you dive into these tools and be authentic.

46:16just because it's artificial intelligence doesn't mean you can't be authentic. Thank you for that. Because that is a big misconception. Like everything you're talking about, all these misconceptions are just lay people. Like if I type something into the chat GPT and I was kind of chuckling inside what you're talking about, you have to understand, you just can't hit a button and it come out completely finished. Like I will type something and then it'll give something back to me. I'm like, that sucks. I clearly did not do a good enough job writing it first and giving enough detail. So you're always going back and refining it, right?

46:57You're teaching it your voice. You're, you're really trying to manipulate your, your writings just so you can clean it up. Right. But the biggest thing is, you know, the biggest misconception is if it comes from AI, it's not original. Like you said, it's not authentic. And that is completely false. We achieved one of the first copyrights on an AI created material, which was our original short film Critters. So kind of what I mentioned to you about, you know, just getting in with open early, we actually pitched them the idea for Critters, which is this little furry, cute story about these woodland critters.

47:38It's critters with a Z dot TV. If you, if you want to go look at it and check it out, the story, but we pitched them kind of a David Amber of planet earth crushing into a Monty Python sketch. So it can show off the tech, meaning we can show some beautiful visuals, show these like cute little critters. And this, you know, British narrator is completely wrong in what he thinks they are. Then they all start talking back to him. Super simple concept. and I think it was very successful. It went to Tribeca, it went to Annecy, bunch of film festivals, awards because in early AI, the only demos were like dystopian sci-fi nightmares.

48:15We were like, what about just a family-friendly, family entertainment kind of idea? And I think it kind of clung on because it was like, oh, it's cute and fun and it's simple. Obviously, there's still people that can shit on it or say it's bad or not good enough. And I don't necessarily disagree that the thing we made three years ago doesn't look up to snuff. I mean, that's not, you know, visually, we're leaps and bounds. I mean, so the process to where we are now, which is now that's becoming a feature, it went through a few things, which is when Sora came out, we actually remastered the Critters film because the original was made with just Dolly, which was the text-to-image generator.

48:56And then we redid it with Sora, which is the text-to-video and image-to-video generator. And then we partnered with this UK production company that made a ton of films, Vertigo. And they said, you know, don't you guys want to expand this bigger? And we're like, of course we do. And we partnered up and then we got the writers of Paddington in Peru, Paddington animated series to write the feature expression of this. So now you've got one of the first AI native IPs that achieved a copyright because we kept such detailed human authorship records. of we didn't just type in something and the little critter came out.

49:32We really refined the eyes, the mouth, the way they walk, I mean, the fur, everything. And we kept track of that, which is how we got that copyright. And now we've got one of the first AI native IPs that was funded by OpenAI originally. Now we've got top tier Hollywood writers involved. And then we made the announcement that actually Open is backing it and providing compute. And now we're set up and we're creating one of the first AI animated films, feature films. I will tell you, we have artists in the room drawing the characters. You know, we are keeping such detailed track of everything that goes into it.

50:13You know, the script was written by people. The characters are designed by people. The worlds are designed by people. I mean, really where AI is coming into place is once we've set a look of what the critter's world is. And then we can start bringing it to life in a quicker way than it would traditionally take. Right. I mean, I've been researching every great animated film ever made, you know, as part of the process of, of doing this film Critters. And, you know, I was on the plane the other week and I watched Mulan and I was watching the credits roll under animators. And, and I was like, this is going and going for like minutes.

50:51I looked it up, 700 animators worked on. And I'm just like, that is one incredible. It's a small village or town to will never be in a place again where 700 animators will work on a feature film. So where are we? Okay. We're in this new era. How do people adapt to that? How do they shift? Some people are adapting and shifting easier than others. Also the timeframe it will take to make this is less than a traditional film, which means in theory, as an artist, you're not on a film for three to four years. You're maybe on a film a year. So maybe in that same, you've actually now made four films. And what we're doing and what we hope the industry will follow our lead on is we're creating a artist profit share, unlike what has ever been done before.

51:40So now, actually, if you are an artist that works on this film and it's successful, now your life could actually substantively change because you're, you have opportunities. You're on a smaller team. You have more stake in it than ever before. So I guess that's why I'm so optimistic about, about what's possible and what we're doing, because we're literally writing it as we go. I mean, we're, we're making it up as we go, but we have great learnings from the process. We're documenting everything. I mean, one of the guys is working on it worked on the original 1996 space jam and, you know, he definitely had, questionable, you know, ideas about what is AI.

52:18And it's been amazing seeing it through his eyes and seeing what's possible and how it is enhancing that human creativity. It's not replacing or taking away. It's actually empowering. Yeah. I think of it, you know, enhancement is a great, great way to describe it. It is something to enhance what you're already building, but you have to do the work upfront. Anything like that. You have all these people working on the project and it's there to refine it or enhance it. Right. When quick question, do you have like a timeframe when this is going to come out? Like our goal is this upcoming year. Okay, cool.

53:00It's 26 at some point. That's awesome, man. That's really cool, dude. What other projects do you guys have going on that you can talk about? So I'm very excited about critters. I'm very excited about beta earth. We have several other originals in development, which is, again, just like where I'm really excited. We have a kids musical with a really prominent songwriter that's coming along. And, you know, we are also very, very busy with our brand work. We are doing some incredibly exciting all AI and hybrid AI projects right now that just would not have been possible. I mean, the thing we did with Virgin Voyages, which is, you know, Virgin's cruise line, they had built out this kind of lore of that.

53:48They have four ships, so they have four mermaids and each mermaid that's on the side of the ship, you know, has their own journey and story. And they'd been wanting to do brand storytelling for that for a long time. and only now because of AI were they able to. With our partnership, we came in and we built out those mermaids. We built out the look of them. We built out these stories and now you have these malleable story, brand storytelling assets and tools that we can tell a number of stories with, which is so exciting because they're like, man, underwater mermaids, big scale stuff, like that wouldn't have been possible before.

54:23So I love finding these moments where we can really push what's possible with AI. Like that is the best case of AI for me is when it's pushing something, pushing imagination. You know, just replacing two people sitting at a coffee shop is less interesting. Why? Let's just go shoot it. And many things it will never replace. Sports, I mean, sports are gonna be sports, documentary stories about people, lives, this, that. Now, interestingly enough, you know, I told you about my father early on. And I, you know, he'd passed now 13-ish years ago. It's been kind of my duty as a filmmaker kid to figure out, like, how am I going to tell his story?

55:07A Pulitzer Prize winning author, Gene Weingarten, wrote about my dad in a book. And I actually hit up Gene and I was like, look, you're a much better writer than I. Can I actually just borrow some of what you wrote as the VO for my little star film? He's like, yeah, sure, go ahead. So I've been putting together this film and I've got kind of this 10 minute working version of here's who my dad was here, what the Soviet nonconformist artist movement was. Here's some of the other players in that space. You know, back before the war, I actually was over there on a job. And so I stayed behind it. I interviewed some museum curators and some historians and stuff.

55:41So I kind of put this piece together. But I've always wanted to tell the narrative version of this story. But who's going to fund this film for me that's set in 1960s, 1970s Soviet Russia? I mean, this is an expensive movie. How can I create these shots? And I did some tests with it. I made a film with Sora called Dominant, which was kind of a POV idea where I put myself into my dad's POV of being persecuted in the 60s, 70s in Soviet Russia. And I was able to kind of recreate some KGB agents. And it actually, that film went on to win best music. It's a music video. It's a spoken word by me, but it won best music video at LA International Shorts Festival.

56:24It's been running for 30 years. And why I think that's interesting is it wasn't an AI film festival. It was just a film festival. And my film wasn't an AI film. It was just a film. And so we are starting to enter the phase of it's going to be blurred. Like what was using AI? What was not using AI? and as much hoopla as there is about AI now, five, 10 years from now saying you used AI on something is going to be like saying you used Photoshop. Okay, cool. Who cares? So yeah, I agree with that. So, so, so that's where I'm like, okay, wow, am I actually going to make this movie about my dad now? And how am I going to make that?

57:01And, you know, it'll probably be some shot elements and, and, you know, I do find success still in filming actors and then actually like interpolating that onto characters that were made. It's always better. The movement's always better. The performance is always better. So yeah, it's got my mind going now. Like, how am I going to put that together? Interesting. How does the industry feel like, and there was some buzz like a month or two ago, but, but an AI actress and all that kind of stuff. And they were talking about, they were going to go look for representation. And there was an article actually, I was actually quoted in the article.

57:35I can't remember what it was like, what, what, uh, what it wasn't, it wasn't us weekly. I can't remember what it was, but, um, I was asked to, to talk about it. And, um, it's interesting because, you know, you hear a lot of people say, oh my gosh, Hollywood's going to end, you know, they're not going to need any actual people acting. They can generate them all from AI. And I don't think that's the case at all, but how does the industry view how did because you smiled you know because like everybody was talking about it but well how did you feel about that and what is the overall i guess the pulse on on ai actors and actresses i mean i think it's a really really hot topic which is is why i smiled i think i think actors are protected to some degree but i do think that some degree of this will happen.

58:30And it is interesting. I think about this a lot. There's a lot of propagating like, hey, well, what if we have a digital twin and you can just hire the digital twin to do the thing and then the real person or actor or celebrity doesn't have to do it? That's fine and interesting for people that have already established themselves. But then I think about like, well, how do you become a new actor? Like what if you're now 16, 17 and you're trying to become the next Will Smith or whoever. How do you do that? And is it a mix of having to be an actor and a personality and an influencer? And what is that kind of line you have to walk?

59:12It's certainly interesting and certainly complex. I think we look at human faces all day long, every day, all day long. So it's still the last thing to change and the uncanny valley of it all, which is why we are leaning into a lot of animated ideas, because you're already asking people to suspend their disbelief. You're watching a cartoon of some sort, and you know, you're not watching a person. And so there's less faults to point out. But I think that we do have to protect our people. And I think that even if some of those tools are being used, how are we still protecting the craft, protecting what we could do.

59:55And I think that this is where a lot of the regulation stuff is going to come in and where these conversations are going and where they're headed. Yeah. It's just, it's crazy to me because I didn't even know it was a thing. And then I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh, like you can't even tell the difference. You can't tell. I can, I still can. I can see through the code, man. I will say Sora 2 was, was one of the first times where I started, the line started to blur. where it's got that almost kind of lower fidelity and more UGC like aspect to it. Some sometimes we're in some shots. I'm like, oh, is that real?

1:00:30Is that not? Which does kind of open up a whole other discussion, which is. 10 years from now, when it like, you know, it can be Sean French and I would be 100 % certain that that was you, but it's not. What do we do to protect the truth and protect what's real? and how do we know what news is real? These are big discussions and questions. I actually think blockchain comes in here. I think we actually see the true use of blockchain when there is a camera that films and as it films, it is actively uploading the geotag, the timestamp to the blockchain that can be independently verified immediately and there's like a hologram or something in the bottom right corner.

1:01:20And so you can scan the hologram and you can see, you know, that, yep, that is actually the news. Like that is really happening now and beyond. And for people, I mean, it's, it is wild. It is wild what's happening, which is of course why, you know, I look at the tools as a storyteller, as a filmmaker, as a creative, but there's a lot more in the world of AI. I mean, I'm just a tiny speck of it. Well, it's just interesting. You know, I'm glad you can see it because you could fool me. Like you, you could fool me. And I see things all the time, just even on the social media platforms, like certain pages, right.

1:01:59Certain, like I'll get these certain follows and then my alarm will go off. I'm like that male or that female are literally flawless. Like there's nothing wrong with, like not one thing is off. I'm like, that is definitely AI generated. Yeah. Cause it's like, no one is made perfectly. Cause I think that the problem there lies is, you know, you know, you know, we both have young children, you know, it's like, gosh, you know, like what are they, what's going to be put in front of them in an AI generated state that they may not be able to tell the difference if it's, if it's real or not. I've been a kid a lot about AI.

1:02:38I've been, you know, we, we made an AI short film together with an idea he had. So you kind of understand how it works. I show him things and I'm like, do you think this is real or AI? You know, and I talked to him to be an independent thinker and to not just take things at face value and to ask more questions. Some may say that's unfortunate. And I'm trying to preserve the innocence of childhood for sure. But, you know, there is an aspect of we are entering new waters and a new world and, you know, our next generation, they're going to be the custodians of what we're building. So how do we make sure we're all on the same page?

1:03:20I have a lot of faith in Generation Alpha, actually, and some of what you talked about of, you know, some of the things that I think have maybe gone wrong in our attitude and kind of some of the things. Like, I think this younger generation, you know, and the parents that I know, like we all have strict rules about screen time and devices and all this kind of stuff. And I think, you know, what's being found out about social media and short videos, even though I make them, you know, it's within a balance. And, you know, it is addictive in a way, right? It's like everyone used to smoke and everyone used to drink soda.

1:04:02And it's like we kind of keep advancing as a society, but then we have to kind of keep up with our own advancements and make sure we're properly regulating them. Very well said, man. It's good to know that you guys have rules on screen time. That's comforting. Like kids don't get to watch screens during the week. It just doesn't happen. And when? I mean, honestly, when? With everything, like when would that even happen? Honestly. Yeah, like all the homework, all the other extracurriculars, the dinner, the actual talking to your children. So you have a connection with them. It's like, when the hell can we even watch TV?

1:04:33So I have one important question for you. First of all, this has been amazing. And you've given so much education on what it is that you do and clearing up some of the fallacies behind AI, right? What's true and what's not. And so I appreciate that because I know the audience is really interested in this field because everybody is. It's such a hot topic right now. But in the theme of determination in the determined society, when I created this platform, I had to define what I felt, what I wanted in life. And to me, it was my own definition of determination is I want to wake up in a society that people are determined to chase their dreams no matter how they feel emotionally at that time.

1:05:17So in your mind, Nick, your definition, how do you define determination? It's exactly what you just said. I think for me, it's like the decision to keep moving and moving forward, even when the path is foggy. You know, I've got my North Star. I've got my big idea. But I'm also malleable enough to know that I may have to change course here and there, right? Like look at my career to get to where I am now. you know i've still got so much further to go but it was not a straight line by any means and so it's kind of like that quiet daily commitment to the vision i do think it is about just just shut up and do the work sometimes you know i love to throw myself a pity party like oh man at the end of the day you know shipping does beat perfection um i think in our creative field, especially like sometimes we can talk things to death and there's a power in just delivering, just like, you know what, I'm going to show you something.

1:06:21I'm going to show you what I think this should be. It might not be a hundred percent right, but, but now we have a starting point of something to talk about and discuss and figure out how we're going to make better. I don't like talking things to, you know, before we've even all seen and aligned on anything. And so, you know, I think, yeah, in filmmaking and business, you know, building stuff with AI, I mean, there's moments where momentum stalls, there are setbacks. But for me, determination is just showing up anyway. It's that discipline. It is what I want my workout discipline regimen to get to, to catch up.

1:07:03My other work ethic, that's what needs to catch up. But as a storyteller, as an entrepreneur, I think it's kind of like protecting that spark of childlike innocence. Because I've worked so hard and I've done so many things, the last several years before AI, I'd gotten a bit more jaded thinking about the bottom line. I'm a partner at our agency. I think about dollars and cents and profit and this and that. And since the AI tools have come about, I've really felt this reawakening of my childlike creativity and my excitement and enthusiasm to create. And so now, as I am doing speaking, as I am thinking about the future more, and that becomes more of my job to think about that, I'm like, wow, what's happened is actually quite magical.

1:07:55And I do have to kind of protect that spark and that excitement and curiosity. And honestly, talking to people helps me do that. Seeing it in my kid helps me do that. And seeing it in the work of new creatives helps me do that, which has been amazing. I've discovered so many incredible new creatives. So yeah, to answer your question, determination is just continuing to move forward, even if you can't see through the fog. I love it, man. And you said it best, dude, and we're aligned on that definition. And a lot of times determination is this quiet thing that nobody else can see, but you know, it's there.

1:08:34It's making the hard decision one after another to do the hard thing instead of the easy thing. So the easy thing a lot of times is just to quit, right? Just to give up on what you're doing because it's too hard and you know, it's, it's not going to be great, but just got to finish, just deliver, man. So I appreciate you so much, man. It was so nice to meet you and have you on the show. And you taught me a lot today, dude. This is really cool. Where can the audience find you? It's just NickCleveroff.com, right? It's Cleveroff.com. So spelled clever with a K, throw an O-V at the end. That's my personal site.

1:09:11And my company is called Native Foreign. So Native Foreign spelled normally.co. We're a company. I tried to get the.com and I couldn't find whoever the heck wrote the all the things but co co's good we're a company fine it's great yeah it's fine it's fine it works so you guys that are listening and watching go find him search him up go look at some of his projects and get ready for critters coming out here and sometime in 2026 fingers crossed that it does i'm looking forward to seeing it and share the show with somebody you know love and trust guys people that have been talking about ai you know the people that love tech that love this type of technology send the show their way so they can learn more about nick and hopefully become acquainted with what we do here on The Determined Society.

1:09:53So thank you guys again for watching and listening. Until next time, stay determined.