William H. Macy: From Shameless to Soul on Fire

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0:36come on john stay with me wake up coming through coming through how bad is it he has burns to 100 percent of his body and then i think the thing that really set the hook for me was john o 'leary he is the most positive upbeat guy in the world there's not a a tread of self-pity in him i think I think a lot of us, I know I do, can feel sorry for ourselves very, very easily. In my family, we say, no self-pity in first class, honey. My wife's an empath, and she goes, hey, honey, I really want to watch this with you, but you're going to have to wake up early and watch it because I'm already anxious.

1:16Probably when you're burned that badly or when you're in that much pain, you don't want to be seen. You want to disappear. Jack Buck walks in, and he sees this kid, and that's powerful medicine. to be seen. Just such a feel-good story. I mean, the whole thing, you know, that human connection and how humans really truly do, at the heart of it, care for one another.

1:43All right, everybody, we are here today with William H. Macy. He's an absolute legend on the screen. And he most recently, in October, this amazing movie is coming out called Soul on Fire. And it's based on a true story about John O 'Leary, who as a young boy had a freak accident at home and burned 100 % of his body. I read this book way back in 2016 when it came out and it changed my life. It told me that if this man can get through one of the toughest things in his life and basically get through a 0 % chance of survival, that I can get through some of the smallest issues and the adversity that I have going on in my life.

2:25And today I'm so blessed to have William here and to talk about the movie. So welcome to the show, sir. Thank you, brother. It's good to be here. Oh man, I tell you what, you know, this weekend I watched the full, I woke up at 5am and watched the full screening and it not only was it really, yeah, it was not only was it really cool to sit there and watch something, you know, ahead of time that you're in, but to be able to really digest my experience with the book so long ago and then watch you and the other characters bring the story back to life for me. That made me just remember so much of the book, even to your character.

3:00You played Jack Buck, man. That was such a pivotal character in the movie, but also the book. So tell me about your experience with this film. It's similar to yours. If memory serves, I read the script early in the morning and I wept like a baby. I don't know. The older I get, the easier I cry. It's getting embarrassed. My daughters love that one. They howl at me as we're watching television, a commercial comes on and I'm crying. And then I read the book afterwards. It's a magnificent story.

3:40And then I think the thing that really set the hook for me was John O 'Leary. He is the most positive, funny, upbeat guy in the world. There's not a shred of self-pity in him. And I think a lot of us, I know I do, can feel sorry for ourselves very, very easily. We've got a phrase in my family, we say, no self-pity in first class, honey. Amen. we're lucky. We're blessed. And, uh, it was such a great story. And I got to play Jack Buck, the famous, um, announcer, fabulous voice, wonderful guy, interesting character, really interesting. Joe Buck, his son is still an announcer. And, um, if I can be candid, uh, I don't look anything like Jack Buck.

4:42And, um, I like the idea of doing all that makeup. And as it turns out, I didn't do that much makeup. There's a bit of it. But it's his hair, which is his signature. And I decided early on that if my hair looked like his hair, I'm halfway home. And I thought that was enough. But Jack was an interesting guy. He was, interestingly, and I got this from Joe, his son, And he wasn't warm and runny with his family. He was a bit of a distant father. But so empathetic with these, in his position of being an announcer and famous in town, these stories would come across his desk. And he was so empathetic, and he helped so many people.

5:34He did it quietly, too.

5:39And this story, John O 'Leary's story, is a perfect example. He didn't make a big deal out of it. He just showed up and he kept showing up. I love the guy. You know, William, it's interesting because, you know, a lot of times if someone of great power, like the voice of the Cardinals in this instance, they'd maybe go to the hospital once, right? But this man made it his mission to not just be there for him while he was in the hospital. When he asked, hey, shoot me straight to the nurse, what are the chances? And they're like, just to be candid, it's zero percent chance that he'll make it through the night.

6:17But he told the killing scene. It really is because, yeah, because that accident could happen to anyone. I remember growing up and I don't know about you, but I remember being a little bit risky. If I would find some matches outside, kids are fascinated with fire. and this specific incident where john o 'leary was burned he saw some kids in the neighborhood or in this community playing with gasoline in the open his brother open area brother oh was it his brothers oh wow and and raced home to do it yeah yeah he saw the older kids at any rate doing it And yeah, I've been there. You've been there.

7:01And our parents have always said, don't do that. Kids are natural little pyromaniacs. It's so magical fire. And it's a danger. There's a lesson here too. It sure is. The thing that I really, again, obviously the story is so real and, and it hits home because like we, we talked about, it could happen to any child, to anybody in this world, right? Because it's, it's, it's not a plane crashing onto your house or something like that. Some low percentage problem. It's, it's, you can grab a match. You can grab a lighter, right? There's candles in houses, right? you know so it was interesting to me and it my wife watched my wife's an empath and she goes hey honey i i really want to watch this with you but you're gonna have to wake up early and watch it because i'm already anxious because she just takes on that pain i'm like babe this is like a feel-good story this guy's life kept going like i promise you he lived and he made a huge impact and is still making an impact but you know when i look at everything that he went through and what was so heartwarming to me were the little things that your character did for him.

8:18Yes. The thank you note thing. The thank you note thing to me blew me away. Thank you. Yeah. Talk about that. Because I want the audience to really, yeah, they really need to dive. They really need to understand this portion. And we're going to take a quick break to hear from our Powered By sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands Treatment Centers and the Determined Society. With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury, top-rated addiction treatment. From medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long-term aftercare. Their resort-style campuses, expert clinicians, and holistic programs create real, lasting recovery.

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9:11Jack was nothing but supportive of the kid, and he gave him power. I mean, when young John was still in a coma, Jack goes up to him and says, you're going to survive. And he says it in such a way that you just know that it gets through somewhere to his brain. And what you're referring to is that he invited him out to the ballpark to sit next to him during a Cardinals game. And one day in the mail, a baseball arrives, signed by his favorite player. And there's a note saying, if you want another baseball by, I can't remember what player it was, write a thank you note. And what was significant about it was that his hands were horribly burned, probably worse than any other part of his body.

10:07And his mother famously said, OK, let's get back to our piano lesson. And he learned how to play piano with the stubs of his fingers. So writing was a big deal and he refused to do it because he was in pain all the time and he refused to do it. But when he could get another baseball writing a thank you note, he wrote it. And it goes on. He has a collection to this day of about 18 baseballs signed by his favorite baseball players. And Jack Buck did that. And he learned how to write. Little things like that in this memoir and in this movie now, chronicling that memoir just touched me. and what really, I think what we're really talking about is, you know, that human connection and how humans really truly do at the heart of it care for one another.

11:02And this was such a feel good story. I mean, the whole thing. Yeah. The whole thing. Yes. I think, um, in our family, we talk about this. My wife, Felicity is the smartest person I've ever met, But the way she refers to it is being seen, especially for a little kid, to be seen, that you're not just a kid, you're you. And John O 'Leary, probably, I'm just making this up, but probably when you're burned that badly, when you're in that much pain, you don't want to be seen. You want to disappear. And that was a theme in his life. The love affair is just great in this film. It's really good. It's really good.

11:50It's really good. Anyway, Jack Buck walks in and he sees this kid. He sees him. He really looks at him and he sees him. And that's powerful medicine to be seen. Especially from somebody that you look up to, right? I mean, he looked up to Jack Buck. I mean, he'd ride around the neighborhood, have his radio on, just listening to Cardinal games. And quite honestly, when you're in a coma, and I've never been in one, but I can only imagine they say that you can actually hear things. And I would venture to say that that man's voice to John O 'Leary changed everything for him. absolutely absolutely i know a bit about this because i've been making movies for a long time and sometimes um well for i'll be in an elevator and i'll say something to someone and i can see people go wait a minute i know that voice voices are powerful really powerful and if all you are is a voice.

12:54I mean, Jack Buck did a lot of work, altruistic endeavors, but mostly we grew up listening to his voice on the radio. And when that voice is in the room next to you, it's mind altering. It's so bizarre. It is. And I'll say this right now, right? Because people ask me all the time, how is it interviewing these people? And when I'm in the interview, like right now I'm in this amazing conversation with somebody that I've watched on the screen for how many years? And all of a sudden I'm having this amazing dialogue. It's a compliment. Okay. It's a compliment. You're an absolute icon. But, but, but I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, 10 years ago, I never thought I would be on a call with William H.

13:44Macy, but, but here I am and then you the voice happens and the connection happens and it just it does mean more it truly does so i think people if they ever get to experience that elevator moment the camera moment it's surreal you know but it's important to continue to dive deeper into that connection and the conversation once you're in it and it's one of the things that i'm most blessed to have mm-hmm yeah it's powerful um our film and tv and um you know the actors where it's it still has me flummoxed a bit i mean yeah i'm me i don't know how i got to be this i i don't fully understand it i love acting and i get that part of it i know what the difficulties are I know what to do when I pick up a script.

14:39And I know when I'm good and I know when I'm bad. But I think it was Elizabeth Gilbert who said, we have control over the process, but it's none of our business what the result is. It's none of our business what people think about the book or the film. That's their business. Our purview is the work we do to make it. and um so it's it's a weird position i'm not gonna lie to you no it isn't i i'm relating to this because i always say you know it's one of these cliches everybody says marry the marry the you know marry the process divorce the result right so everything that i've done in my life i really dive into process right so what it's screening the movies it's understanding what i can understand.

15:28And then from that point on, have the conversation. I can't control how it's received. I can control how I am in the moment based on my prep work, based on what I've done to get here. But I fully subscribe to it's none of my business on how people take what I say. Now, again, I know that loosely. Right. But I know you've experienced it. I know you have. Somebody goes, dude, you're that guy. I watch you. I watch you all the time. It's heady, isn't it? It's weird. It's, it's starting, you know, I'll be honest with you and the viewers right now, it's starting to happen. It's starting to happen at the gym.

16:08It's starting to happen at the baseball park. It's starting to happen in the gas stations. And it's really cool because the best compliment I get, they're like, wow, you're the same guy on cameras. You are in person. I'm like, well, cause I'm being me. because this isn't an act like i'm like i'm real like it this is exactly who i am and i would venture to say because of who you are like you said in that that thought process you have of yourself you're like i don't know how i got to be here i'm just me well that's what wins yeah yep that's that's wisdom um i learned a long time ago if you try to figure out what they want you will fail if you figure out what you want what you think is good what you think is funny and do that you still might fail but you'll keep your soul oh man that right there is so powerful because in a world of distraction everybody's shooting or gunning for be somebody and something big whether it's for themselves or they're for their families they sometimes lose themselves and lose their integrity big time, right?

17:20And I have an amazing accountability partner. You've mentioned Felicity, my wife, Jacqueline. She made me promise from the very beginning. She goes, you will always be you. You will never lose your integrity or you have to quit. I said, done. Done. And it's so important because that's how I feel you can be massively relatable to anybody is when you need that authentic version of yourself and come from a place of a burning desire soulfully. I say to young actors, look, you have to learn how to be genuine and sincere. And the second you can fake that, you can have a great career.

18:09Oh, man. Let me ask you a question. This movie, I mean, obviously, it comes out in October, right? Um, what for you, what, how did you learn from or grow from playing Jack Buck?

18:27Um, it's, um, it's a complicated question and it's, uh, uh, with all due respect, It's not a legitimate question because I, first of all, to make a film in order to teach people is probably the worst reason to make a film that I can think of. It's called entertainment. Our job is to tell a story that is true, first of all, true to the human experience and is entertaining. It's got a beginning, middle, and end. That's the job. What did I learn? That's a complicated question. Do you know, he's a real character. It's a lookalike. And I haven't really thought about what I've learned to that extent, except that if I ever do it again, I know this will affect that.

19:34And you asked earlier, what was it like to meet his son and his widow and his friends? And it was bizarre. And it was I was self-conscious and shy about it because here I walk sort of dressed like their dad, their husband.

19:59And I didn't want it to be like a Saturday Night Live sketch. I wanted to make sure that they knew, I thought, that in order to tell this story, it was important that I look like Jack Buck. And I don't know why I thought that. Well, I do know some of the reasons why I thought it was important to look like him, or at least take some steps in that direction. And that's because he was so well known. And a lot of the people that will see this film grew up watching Jack Buck and grew up knowing what John O 'Leary's story was. John, as you've hinted at, he gives speeches a lot. I don't know, 300 a year, something like that.

20:54Maybe that's not that many, but 150 a year. and they're very inspirational and they change people's lives. So everybody knows all the players. And I thought to tell this story well, I should take some steps toward looking like Jack Buck. But to get back to my point, when I walked in and there was his son, I was self-conscious and a little shy. And I just prayed that he knew that in no way was I making fun of his father or denigrating his memory because it's close, but it ain't the same. It's just, it's weird. It has to be weird for them. So, um, going forward, I mean, you know, to play Abraham Lincoln, you don't have to apologize to his wife.

21:43Um, what else did I learn? Um, I think I always knew it, but you touched on it. the power of a community surrounding you when all hope is lost. I really believe that the group has more power than the individuals. And I think that has a lot to do with why John O 'Leary survived this, because people willed it. And you can call it prayer, and you can call it divine intervention. and I don't know whether it is that or not, but I do know that the community thinking the same thoughts and willing this thing to happen has power. That was very beautifully said. And one of the things that you said in there is that you are self-conscious, right?

22:44And I think that's a basic human emotion, but my viewers and my listeners, a lot of times, and even myself in the, you know, maybe even back in the day, we would look at somebody like you or somebody on screen and be like, there's no way they have any self-conscious thoughts going on. Touch on that a little bit because what I've found is that everybody in your position is really good at their job, right? But they're also human being. And I think that a lot of the times the public seems to disconnect the two. Yeah. I mean, I'm just an actor and that's, my purview is rather small when it gets to a film.

23:31It takes a lot of people to make a film. And interestingly, the actors have an inordinate amount of power on one hand, zero, on the other. if you don't believe me, just wait till they wrap you. You know, if you're a day player, once you're wrapped, get out of here. See you later. Before that, it's like, do you need anything to drink?

24:00My faith is in this, that when people see the film, they'll have a moment. If they grew up in the area, if they were Cardinal fans, they will go, Oh, yeah, he looked kind of like Jack Rock. That's good. That's not good. That's him. But God willing, that won't last long. And they will be consumed by the story. And they'll stop judging whether I'm a good lookalike or a bad lookalike. And be more interested in what I'm going to say next. That's the faith you have to have. and um that's why when i met people that knew him i was self-conscious because yeah it's not that good to look alike we were totally two completely different perspectives right your perspective and then mine as the viewer all right yeah i thought zero i know who jack buck is right i know joe buck is right i know i know i'm a baseball guy i played you know division one college baseball i mean i'm big baseball guy that thought never crossed my mind i was more diving into the see right so i think a lot of people really won't even go there for that but i just i just want you to know that it was a masterful performance you were amazing and it was it was on the spot it was on the spot man you crushed it i can't wait to see the finished film i've seen I've seen the cut when it was locked, but I haven't seen the finished film.

25:35And I'm going to be there for the opening. And God willing, I'll be able to sit back and watch the film and not just stare at myself. I've discovered the first time I see myself on film, all I can do is go, how did I grow two years older in one year? but the second or third time I see it I can get lost in the story and lose myself and that's when I go alright I had some good moments I had some stinky moments live and learn Jubilee yeah it was a really good story you guys told the story really well from what I know about it obviously and from the book and then watching it just the love story in that as well we alluded to it earlier you alluded to it Macy was, yeah, she was, my favorite line is, how did you manage to nail her?

26:30That was, that was brave to write that. You, you got this gorgeous young woman. What the hell's going on? I think one of the more powerful things is not underestimating people. Cause then, you know, and again, this will come out obviously after the movie is out. Right. But so there's no spoil alerts here but you know when you look at certain things that you know his his his wife said in the movie you know when he when he was courting her is like a year you why didn't you why did it take you a year and never underestimate me like that ever again because he just assumed that she would not be interested because of what he looked like and the things that have happened to and that he had this wall built up yep they did a cagey thing by not uh canonizing him from the very beginning he survived that's the end of the story no he had his foibles and he he's still growing i know john o 'leary he's still growing and learning and he's still wrong sometimes that makes you love him even more absolutely well surely amazing film and um again the whole cast did great and I can't wait for it to come out and um you know see it out there on the big screen and everybody else be inspired by it but look man you got a lot of things coming up you're you know you're about to get back to work again I don't know if you're able to talk about it but I would love for you to share what you can uh I got a couple of scenes in the new version of the running man um which I have not seen, but I saw some coverage of it.

28:13And it's really exciting. And I like my role. I'm here back in L.A. because there's a series starting called The Land about Cleveland. And it's about the NFL. And I play a team owner. And I'll be doing that until March. Nice role. Beautiful writing. And I've got a couple of other films coming out. One of them is called Train Dreams, which I saw. It just killed its sun danced and sold for a whole bunch of money. Netflix bought it. And I went to the Toronto Film Festival and I saw it there. And it's a beautiful film. Oh, I can't wait. And I'm really, I just love doing it. I was really good in it.

28:58I thought it needed more of me.

29:02So, you're about to make a trade based on a friend's text. But which you do you listen to? Is it, we could buy a house in Tulum. Get optioning those options. We could lose everything. Or let's do a little research. Get your head in the trade and make the investment decision that's right for you. Learn more at FINRA.org slash trade smart. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. listening to this podcast smart move being financially savvy smart move another smart move having state farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor state farm is there prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state I did a film with my daughter she's one of the stars of it it's called Brian it's a very small indie a coming of age teen story and it's delightful she talked me into doing a couple of scenes in it and it's delightful I can't wait for that to come out and a bunch of others I did a bunch of indies I'm still working I love it and the aforementioned ukulele I do a gig at this theater called Takah in Basalt, Colorado.

30:36I've done two of them. I'm going to do four more. And I invite singer-songwriters from the Roaring Fork Valley. And I do a set. They do a set. And I am sort of the master of ceremonies. It's sort of a retake of a Prairie Home Companion. And it's scary, brother. Man, it's scary to get up there and sing songs on a ukulele, but I'm just, I screwed up my courage and I've done it. The first one we got over, second one was really good. So I'm now, oh, showbiz. You know, you would think, well, the second one is really good. You're home free. No, it makes the third one even scarier. How often did you do that?

31:22we were going to do it every other month but i got a job as here i am so the next one is in january um the middle part of january and then um depending on my schedule the next one will be about two months after that that's great fun it's great fun and uh very casual and i work with some fabulous musicians and I am not a fabulous musician. Turns out I can write really good lyrics and my tunes are passable and my ukulele playing is good enough. But they say things like, what key is that in? And I go, I'm so sorry. I haven't a clue. I have no idea. How did it sound though? Watch my fingers and just do it.