Zach Cogen on Elite Recovery, Rehab, and Mental Resilience

26:40yeah i think the best way to start with this is that i am lucky enough that i work in a setting that's we'll call like a high performance department where i work alongside multiple professionals that are like-minded that have the best interest in the athlete in mind and who are in the medical field and performance field. So I work alongside a team of people that provide a service to the athletes on our squad and our roster. And us as a collective, we were able to tap into him as a human. We have performance therapists. We have, or rather say mental performance therapists. We have athletic trainers on staff.

27:27We have performance coaches on staff, dieticians on staff. So we have this conglomerate of professionals that we all trust each other's expertise to support the athlete in the best way possible. And I think that's number one. That's the biggest thing to highlight is that this is a team effort. So us together are able to, I guess, you see somebody every day, six to seven days a week, we're working with these people. And you get to know them on a different level and more of an intimate level. and you know their unique characteristics and what drives them, what motivates them. When to push on the brakes, but when to actually hit the brakes.

28:07I'm sorry, when to push on the gas, when to hit the brakes. When to slow down in a day. And I mentioned this before, we're all people. If you got into a fight with your girlfriend the night before or your wife and you're not feeling it today, recovery is, let's say you have a six-month recovery, that's a decent window where you have a lot of time to play with and to schedule things. So if you're not feeling it for that day, let's maximize. Because you have to be there mentally to be able to attack that day and get the most out of it. So if you're not there that day, then that's fine. We pivot and we reschedule things.

28:41And you listen to the athlete. Because the athlete, just as much as myself or some of the other people I work with, they drive the shit. They drive the car. This is their body, their livelihood, their professional. We're there to support them. So they're essentially running the show as well. So they're such a huge integral part to this. And for however hard this is, it's building that trust in the beginning for them to trust you and to tell you when they're feeling it, when they're not feeling it, when they're struggling with things. And I think that's the most important thing is just connecting with the human in front of you.

29:19That right there is so important. and I want the audience to really key in on that, is focusing on the human being. I can remember when I was coming back. It was like, if you're not ready in eight months, we're going to cut you. And I was forced to come back sooner because I didn't want to lose my position. I didn't want to transfer. I wanted to be at LSU. I didn't want my release. But I didn't feel like that was a very humanistic approach. That put me in a fight or flight situation while trying to get better. So I didn't have that luxury of, I don't feel it today or, Hey, my arm hurts a little bit more.

30:01I can't really throw 120 feet at 80 % today, but I was consistently, you know, extrinsically pushed. I kept hearing that voice inside my head of, if you don't get better and you're not ready for fall, you're going to have to leave. And I didn't want that. And so the fact that you guys are really dialing into the human being, I think is a very important aspect because without that, you don't know when to push, like you said, and you don't know when to put on the brakes. So I just think that when we're dealing with athletes and when we're dealing with certain injuries is to understand the person and what drives them, but also what can temper them on days and then just adjust the plan accordingly.

30:49A hundred percent. I take for granted sometimes how many days a week I see these athletes. Working with someone six, seven days a week is not of the norm in my profession. I typically, in an outpatient environment, a physical therapist is seeing somebody for anywhere from one to three times a week in your typical insurance-based outpatient facility for orthopedics. And they only have a script for three months, not for six to eight months, sometimes with what they need. So I take for granted in that, but also as a practitioner, me being able to do that, it's important for me to take advantage of that time to really take the necessary steps of the roller coaster of what rehab should look like.

31:36You have big days, you have small days, and you need those days looped in. It's not just go, go, go, go, go. So there are rest days in there, there are regen recovery days where we utilize our recovery modalities. And that also helps the psychology of the athlete too, where they're not just on the groin every single day. It makes them feel like they have some time to catch up with themselves, not just physically, but mentally as well. Yeah, that's difficult. Because you have to find that balance, right? It's like, do I really feel like I can't do this today or is it just I don't want to? and so yeah right because i mean shoot dude that happens in my daily life more than i care to admit like i'm like i can't do this today and then i have to ask myself is it that i can't or i don't want to and if it's the latter then i do it anyway and if i can't then i adjust right it how how do these elite athletes like lewis morgan how do they filter through that information right do they ever get honest with them with you and like, Hey, I just don't want to.

32:44I'm glad you asked that. Cause I was just about to say that it's also our job to make sure that if they say, you know, I'm not just not feeling it today. Me understanding why they're not feeling it today and say too bad. We're getting after it today, or we're doing this, this, and this, or maybe I'll pivot away from this if we make sure to get this done. So there are levels to how you can kind of manipulate a session, but really understanding like what's driving that. Is there something actually going on or is it time for me to just kind of step in and say, nope, too bad. We have to get this done.

33:21It's crunch time, whatever. It has to happen. How do you diagnose that you personally, right? How do you counsel the athlete? What are some of the questions that you would ask to kind of see where the root of this, I don't want to, or I can't is coming from at that given time. Yeah. I mean, similar to what I said before, Dave, how was your night? What did you do last night? Knowing, is there something personal going on outside of here? Are they, do they have some family issues going on? Did they just have a recent breakup? Do, you know, there's so many things that go on in this person's life that, you know, could be weighing on them.

34:00So just conversation. Yeah. Simple conversation. and it doesn't even have to be like a line of questioning like a b c and d i don't have to ask three these three questions but the more you talk to these athletes the more you talk to these people on a day-to-day the more you'll understand like what kind of mood they're in what's driving them well okay they're probably like this because they had a tough day yesterday um or maybe they're like this because the gym work was too much or maybe they're like this because they really slept like three hours because their baby was up eating them up all night so it's it's just you're the nuance of knowing and kind of matching, connecting the dots.

34:37Not necessarily these three questions, this is how it has to happen, but more so kind of just guiding it. Because you also don't want them to really feel like they're being questioned. I want them to feel like I care and I understand. I'm listening to them. I'm listening, active listening. I think it's important. I think anything can be solved with an actual authentic conversation, right? So when we're talking to an athlete, especially an athlete that's always used to getting peppered with questions, whether it's in the media or, or whatever that might be having a common understanding. And just by having a open conversation of, Hey, what, you know, talk to me, what's going on?

35:17You know, was it a rough night? And, you know, or tell me about your night. Well, then they say like, Hey, I didn't sleep and I ate something and it didn't agree with me. Or, you know, like, Hey, my baby was up. You know, I didn't sleep. Then you know that this is probably something that you need to pull back on a little bit today because rest is important in recovery, right? People talk about seven to eight hours of sleep, but if an athlete gets any less and they are athletes specifically like a soccer player that is constantly running and it takes a lot of energy, especially if they're injured too and not enough sleep there's the the recovery process slows how in your mind like do you ever have sleep conversations with them or how important is sleep with your athletes

36:10it's probably the most common question you'll hear me ask an athlete within the first five minutes of talking to them at the beginning of the day is how did you sleep last night right so i mean sleep i mean we i i can't talk enough about sleep and and nutrition those are the two those are your two money makers right there is sleep is is so vital to your recovery and what we do our bodies do so much when we sleep um and also the fuel we put in our body matters so much so right if i can narrow down two of those things and really we can kind of dive into sleep as well that is the first thing that i ask every athlete that is getting onto the table in the morning and i'm about to work with uh is how'd you sleep last night um so i can be kind of a record almost uh but it is so really important to know like what what what the night was like for them i think i think sometimes i can even just tell yeah you just tell it was someone like walks in the blank stairs like yeah you didn't sleep well last night for sure and a lot of times Like you mentioned, like nutrition, what you fuel your body with matters and what you fuel your body with does impact your sleep.

37:20Right. I mean, it truly does. Like when I eat a certain way and there's no one recipe for everybody, right? There's a lot of misdirection. No carbs aren't bad. You know, eat your starchy carbs. It's okay. Some people say, no, stay away from those. Just eat fruits and vegetables. Like for me, like it's very specific. I feel better when I am eating a high protein diet with a lot of fruit. I enjoy it more. I'm never really hungry. If I implement rice or multiple things like that, I can feel a little bit off at times. So for me, I just know what works. And so I stay in those guardrails, right? But I just think that the most important thing for athletes, like you mentioned, is the sleep, but also proper nutrition you know do and and this is a quite this is a kind of a funny question but i have a reason i'm asking it i think non-athletes have a very hard time managing what they eat managing what they put in their body every day do some of these athletes at times go off track nutrition you have to recounsel them and let them know like hey this is why your body's not recovering.

38:38You are eating this and now you have inflammation and now you have lack of sleep, your cortisol levels are higher and now your inflammation is even greater because you're not getting proper rest or nutrition. Do you have to have those conversations with these high-level athletes? Of course, similar conversations. And I'm also going to defer to the experts in this answer is typically when there are issues with nutrition and diet that are almost a little out of my scope of practice, right? So we have people on staff that are experts in that field too. So I'll also just defer to our dietician to discuss nutrition and eating habits and meal planning and those types of things.

39:19So I guess it's a luxury to be able to do that. When people ask me those questions, I can give only so much information to that, but then it comes to a point when they probably will ask me a question that maybe I can answer the right way, but there's someone that's better that can give them a way, way different and way more clear and concise answer that's going to help them a lot further. So that's, that's typically my, my default. And what I would say in that is, um, but I would also say that for the, the average person is, you know, there, there are people who individuals consult with all the time and diet and food and nutrition.

39:59And, you know, when you have those questions, just defaulting to the professionals to be able to help with that. Cause you know, but I think you hit it spot on is that it's so person specific. No, I don't think that everybody's body is, you know, I mean, we have people who are, you know, gluten intolerant, you know, we have people who are lactose. Everything is just different for everybody. So it's, it's hard to even just give a general blanket statement of, you know, you need to have this to make sure you can have that. But yeah, so just to, to kind of circle around that. There's a couple of other things for elite athletes that we focus on post-operatively, particularly, you mentioned protein intake, but it's also supplementation as well, post-operatively.

40:40If we're looking to get athletes back in time, there's timelines we have to meet. We have to make sure that we get muscle growth on time. We have to make sure we get muscle strength and power back. We need to make sure that they're also getting these supplements like creatine and protein and collagen, getting good tissue healing, things that are going to support the body from micronutrient and just just molecular level uh so it goes a little deeper when you're talking about um athletes who perform at that level but at the end of the day the professionals know the best so it's really defaulting to them i will like that you know you're you're you're really leaning on the different branches of support that you have within the organization of the new york red bulls right it is a team right you're helping these athletes get back on track and if you don't know the answer you're able to pivot to the the dietician right and that helps the athlete truly feel like they're supported because coming back from an injury like you know lewis morgan had that is a grind you know i i believe in a video i watched like some days there he was doing four sessions yeah i mean yeah he was a machine i mean that's a lot i mean that is a lot on the body right i mean is a tremendous amount of war and terror physically and mentally.

41:58And so when I'm watching this video and seeing his comeback story and the role that you and the Red Bulls played in it, one word came to mind, obviously, well, two words, is determination and discipline. And that's what this show is based on, right? So in order to come back from an injury like that for the athlete, There has to be a high level of determination and discipline, but also, also with the staff, like you have to be highly determined and highly disciplined in order to get these elite athletes back to performance, right? It's a big deal. How do you see those two words playing a part in an athlete recovery?

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43:45i mean that's i like to so i'm going to default back to my roots as a wrestler um and just talk about discipline determination just because i'm not sure if you're familiar with the sport of wrestling but i will talk about it until my last days on earth um you know i am the human i am today for a lot of reasons, but one of the main reasons is because of the sport of wrestling and the grit and the grind daily, the determination, the weight cutting, the atmosphere of what it's like competing just you in front of a bunch of people and there's no one else to help you. It's not a team sport to a certain extent.

44:27There's just so much about the sport that taught me about those two key characteristics and character traits. And that helped me just push me in my career as a human, just to the next level, because there's a lot of adversity that we've had to have had to run through, needless to say, and to continue to do that and to be there for these guys and to wake up every day and getting in early, making sure I'm motivating the individuals three to four sessions a day. It just takes another level of determination and discipline and hard work. At this point in my life, it just feels a little effortless almost.

45:15It's just part of who I am. It's part of me as a human. It's something that I enjoy. I enjoy putting in energy to help someone achieve their goals. It gives me an endorphin release. And it's just anybody I'm sure who comes on the show has had something in their upbringing, in their childhood, as they've come through their profession that has taught them a certain level of discipline and determination. So everybody has their own, but it's something that I don't even think twice about anymore. It was interesting because I look at fighters, right? Whether it's UFC, boxing, wrestlers, anything that's weight-based, right?

46:02You have classifications, the ultimate discipline to be in that sport. I mean, I could imagine you in high school and you in college, you know, trash bags sitting there, you know, with a hoodie on, running around the wrestling mats to make weight, you know, spitting, not drinking a certain amount of water, you know, like a day before you have to be at an event, like that takes a high level of discipline, dude. Like I, I, I, I, there's, to me, there's nothing more discipline being like, okay, like, I'm not even going to drink water for the next six hours. Like, like that is so difficult, man. And, and like, what are your, your, your smile?

46:46Cause like, bring yourself back to those days i'd rather not i'd rather not um no i mean listen it's it's you against yourself um you're almost fighting you're like you're fighting your subconscious you're fighting yourself you're fighting your brain um yeah it's it's just getting comfortable with discomfort is the best way i can describe is like it's not comfortable um but you know you get comfortable with that feeling and it you learn to to deal with it um that's a lot of what the what these guys you see these everybody's cutting who is cutting weight and whatever but even even the jockey or jockeys cut weight as well i mean you have to weigh in for that um i didn't know that i didn't know that yeah it makes sense uh yeah absolutely you have to weigh in before you get on the horse uh it's there's there's just a certain level that you're you get to and you have this reaction and you know you break down a couple of times but you pick yourself back up and you learn from it and your body learns from it and biologically you learn from it and you adapt um yeah so it wasn't easy in the beginning of my time doing it, but as I kind of got used to it, it's, you know, I didn't really think about it anymore.

48:14I was just kind of used to it. Do you feel like determination and discipline is a thing that you are born with or a skill you acquire? It's a great question. I think that I'm going to say it's both. I think that there needs to be a certain software in there to build on. And I think that even if it's like the most minuscule, minute of something, that to have that sensation of wanting to push past the limits that you're comfortable with, that's kind of how I would define determination or discipline is pushing past our limits physically, mentally, emotionally, and being able to compound that and multiply on that and build on that and become more robust.

49:11So I'm going to say both. And I truly feel that's like my gut and my soul. I agree with you a hundred percent, dude. I really truly do. I think everybody is born with a certain amount. Like you said, I love how you said software. That's pretty cool, man. To think of that hardware, software, whatever you're wired at, right? And it's typically, you know, genetic, right? Like, and then you grow up in an environment and you start to learn like, hey, if I want X, Y, Z, I have to do all these other things and I have to do them consistently, right? And then you build up that callousness to the hard work, right?

49:50I'm 47 years old, dude. I don't like working out five, six days a week. but I know if I don't do it and if I don't eat right, one, I'm going to look like hell. Two, I'm going to feel like hell. And then three, I'm not going to sleep very well. And then I can't leave my family. You know, so when I go through all that, that the decision to do things that I said I was going to do, even when I don't want to do them, I still complete the task. And I may not be a hundred percent every single day. There's days where I'll go in there and like, my body hurts like hell. I don't want to work out today. So I'll just go in there and I'll do one set.

50:31And then I'm like, okay, cool. Then I'll do another one. And I'm like, I'm starting to feel a little bit better. And then by the fourth set or the first set of the second exercise, like I'm, I'm fully engaged. And I think a lot of people lay off before they can get fully engaged.

50:53Yeah. I mean, I can relate to that for sure. There've been so many days I felt that it's, it's interesting. You say that, you know, you do something, you dip your toes in the water and you're, it's almost like getting into a cold pool. It's like, it's freezing. I can't do this. And then as you get in, you kind of get used to it. And then finally, when you're all the way and it's like, okay, this is fun. but I'll even play devil's advocate. For a living, I work with people to try to induce and promote adaptation and change, whether it's strength or tissue resiliency or healing or whatever. I challenge anybody who maybe feels like they don't even have an ounce of it to try to change because I'll throw another really nerdy and big term, neuroplastic.

51:36we're all neuroplastic we all have the ability to change our brain can change and grow new neural pathways and things like that we are neuroplastic and we can change so why not learn and teach ourselves discipline and hard work right why not so i think you know challenging the normie of my initial gut reaction but as i'm listening to you and i'm thinking in my own head And yeah, we should be able to change and become more disciplined and determined. And I have no issue with saying that either. So just have to throw that back out there because we're humans and we adapt. And that's what we're good at.

52:13We're really good at adapting and evolving. Yeah. I mean, I think I make it my mission every day. If I feel a certain way or I'm weighed down, you know, mentally and emotionally, and I don't want to do something, I really focus on just doing it. Because to your point, if I can create a new neuropathway of when I'm feeling so bogged down and so heavy emotionally that I can't even begin to fathom doing something physical or completing a work task or whatever it is, but then I actually do it. It's just like lifting weights. It's just like anything physical. you build that muscle over time through repetition and consistency.

52:58And I think that that is a key to most people's success is like doing the things they don't want to do when they don't want to do them emotionally, but they still complete it. Yeah. I see it every day. I live it every day. Yeah, man. It's yeah. It's you're hitting the nail on the head. That's really what it is on a day to day. And it's, it's a grind being a human. It's a grind, whatever job you got to do and get up in the morning, like dog days, same thing every day. But some people it's easier than others, but at the end of the day, we all got to try to figure out a way. Yeah. I want to ask you a specific question because in my line of work, I absorb a lot of energy, right?

53:41There's days where I have one interview. There's days where I have two, sometimes three. Today happens to be a day where I have three. So I'm going to have three different human beings that I'm absorbing energy from, right and i have to take care of myself like i really have to take care of myself so i can give my all to you and to whomever else the audience so it hits the audience where it needs to you have the same demands you have the same demands you have this you know you have pressures alike right you have to get these your job is to get these athletes back to performance right how do you take care of yourself because if you don't take care of you you can't take care of athletes.

54:19You can't take care of your wife. You can't take care of your kid. I am still, at this point in my career, I'm still trying to find out the best way possible to do that. And I can put full transparency laid on the line for you. But what I will say is the further I go down the road as a physical therapist and the further down the road I go in my career, the more I start to learn how important that really is. And the more I try to start to do for myself the further down I go. So little things like waking up earlier than I typically would in the morning to take a shower, to eat some breakfast, to get a small workout in, to get myself going before my day really starts and everybody's up and before my family wakes up, before I even get to work, before the athletes come in in the morning.

55:10I'm able to kind of get things done and have my alone time with Zach and check in with Zach before all the chaos starts. A little things like that, waking up an extra hour and a half earlier than I typically would. I can relate to that brother. I really can. When I lift her in the morning, I get it done early. I've got that big thing out of the way. But during that time, I'm actually able to check in with me because I can't do that during a day. I can't do that when my kids are home. I can't do that when I'm visiting with the whole family and my wife. I just can't. I have to be able to dial into me and it's almost like when I'm in the gym, that is my active meditation.

55:57I learn so much about myself in those moments because I'm pouring into me. And I just think that it's super important for everybody listening and watching on YouTube to really dive into what's going to give you the best insight to yourself and how do you execute that consistently? That's how you win.

56:23I wouldn't have said it better. It's just, we got to love ourselves before we can love anybody else. And we'll make sure we take care of ourselves or else we won't be able to take care of everybody else. So it's huge. And I just, the more I go on, the more I learn how important that is. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. But you're doing amazing work, man. You know, you're getting athletes back on the field, you're taking care of yourself and your family, and you've done so many amazing things in your career. A couple more questions. You know, So based on that, what makes you different, right?

57:02Like what, there's thousands of you out there, right? And you have been so successful with your athletes and the organizations that you've been in. What do you think the separator is for you? it's really it's another really tough question um that i sometimes i don't necessarily think about a lot um the first thing that comes up into my mind a lot of people will give this answer but it's and i think if you ask anybody who knows me in my life family or friends or colleagues co-workers they'll say the word passion and that drives just almost everything for me in what I do in my daily life whether it's for my family or my friends or for my career is is passion and by being passionate about what I do it makes me care that much more about all the little things have I checked all the boxes before this athlete moves forward and in their rehab process?

58:04Can I make sure that I can safely say that they're objectively safe enough to do this next phase of rehab? Have I assessed them, like really checking back in with myself, have I assessed them, well, instead of just doing half of what I need to do and kind of just getting done with the day and going home, do I really care? And that passion drives how much I actually care and the extent at which I will go to make sure that the athlete no longer feels pain, can perform at an optimal level, can maximally shoot a ball again from 30 feet out of goal, can sprint at their max speed and maybe if not faster.

58:46Because there's also a passion that I get a hit of dopamine and endorphins when I get to see that person back out in the field doing what they love. So there's also a selfish aspect to it too, because that makes me feel good to see them do what they love to do and why they get up in the morning, what their passion is, is getting to play a sport for a living and what they love. So it's this theme of passion. And I just, I love to see that. And I really do. And I think that's kind of the best way to say it is because I can say, yeah, all the technical things and my hands-on skills and my exercise selection and whatever.

59:29And it's all driven by this passion and this fuel. And like, I just love helping people. I love that. I love seeing them succeed. And it just, it makes me feel good. Yeah. You know, it's, you say passion, passion drives action. like that's the thing right like in order to have action or take action in something you have to be passionate about it especially at the very beginning but uh look man i really appreciate you dude this has been an awesome conversation and you know after spending the last you know 53 minutes with you i can see why you're so damn good at what you do you take great pride in it You work hard for the athletes.

1:00:13You have a overall mission of providing passion into the process with your athletes. And so, you know, you're a man. There's no secret or no surprise of what, you know, seeing you do what you've done and all the success you've created, man. Sean I appreciate those kind words no this has been awesome it's my pleasure to get to share my story share some experiences and some thoughts with your audience and with yourself and yeah this was fantastic yeah man thank you very much where can the audience find you and learn more about you man yeah I mean I'm only active on Instagram that's my only social that I'm active on so it's going to be at the sports physio underscore.

1:01:03Yeah, so you can find me on there. Any questions, feel free to DM me. I try to be as reachable as possible and try to answer everybody as I can. So yeah, please reach out. I have some confidence on there, some exercises and you can follow along with some of my stops along the way. But yeah. Love it. Hey guys, it's a cool page. Check it out. I follow them on both my accounts. Really cool page. Great human, doing great things, supporting athletes, and the preparedness to get back on the field. They call it the pitch in soccer. So I'm learning every day, ladies and gentlemen, every single day. But thanks again, man.

1:01:42And for the audience, please share this episode with an athlete or someone that's struggling with some recovery, whether it's physical or mental recovery. And don't be afraid to check out Therabody.com. look at their the pro plus series the jet the jet boots the the thera gun and they also have some great sleep aids with the sleep goggles so that way you can get your rest meditate and all that kind of stuff and if you go there and you decide to buy something use code word determined for 15 off valid through january 1 all the way to the end of march 2026 and with that being said guys i love you and thank you and until next time stay determined you