Is the Protein RDA Too Low for You? What 40 Years of Studies Show - Dr. Don Layman & Dr. Heather Leidy | GLS #214

24:48And so there's a lot of reasons beyond just, well, did it affect the muscle amount? We started doing weight loss partly because weight loss was interesting, but also because you couldn't really study sarcopenia. You know, if we're interested in does protein as we get older, is that an important thing to do? That's hard to study. You'd have to do a controlled diet study for at least two decades to have power to study that. But we can do sort of this similar sort of thing with weight loss in a three-month period where you can tangibly actually control diet that long. And we find that adding protein always benefits body composition.

25:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I was hoping...that's where I was hoping you would get to. With these randomized control trials, they're saying that anything above six months is a more appropriate duration. But what we are saying, and I think that we collectively agree, that the change in muscle from a negative standpoint, a sarcopenic standpoint, if we think about the numbers over a decade, you're losing maybe 8 % per decade. Conversely, how we would see muscle effects with a randomized controlled trial would probably take more than 24 months. I mean, most of our studies, if you power a study for body composition change, you basically need to get to a 10 % change before you're really going to be able to statistically detect it.

26:21And for sarcopenia, you know, that's at least, it's more than a decade. You probably almost have to go two decades to have something you can really detect. And so there's just no way that study is ever going to be run.

26:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And to wrap this up for the physicians, healthcare providers, coaches, trainers, as they think about nutrition, when someone goes and they look at these databases and it'll say, well, there's no evidence. when I asked you about it just as I am right now one of the things that you said is you're getting really stuck in the definition of what is the I don't know how to say but like the outcome that you were looking for and that if it's sarcopenia or muscle protection or lean mass protection I mean the two are not synonymous that it would take two decades and that perhaps even the quote long-term randomized controlled trials are not adequate.

27:18And Heather's earlier point, the epidemiology, the survey data doesn't give you that range of protein that people seem to gravitate to around the 1.2 range. And the population that's above that is actually fairly small. Yeah.

27:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I'm really glad that you brought that up. Heather, you talked about patterns and then you talked about nutrients. For people to understand the goal of the dietary guidelines is the way in which I understand is to direct patterns of eating. Is that correct? It is, but by definition, the dietary guidelines are meant to make recommendations for foods, food groups, right, in a dietary pattern to meet your nutrient needs, right, and to meet the recommendations that you have based on science. So yes, and that's why even with the current dietary guidelines, there isn't a specific set name for the dietary pattern that's in there.

28:13And we talk about 1.2 to 1.6. We've even talked about it really is a flexible pattern, right? Even within that range of protein and the types of proteins, you can pick and choose whatever foods that you want. And so yeah, that is fundamentally the dietary guidelines. It's looking at foods, making recommendations on food groups that will give you the nutrients that you need. The nutrients that we need. Yeah, so that's how, I mean, obviously the DRIs are nutrient-based recommendations. And then from those, the dietary guidelines look and say, well, what types of foods, what patterns can we recommend that can actually meet those or optimize, right?

28:46I mean, it's meeting them first and foremost.

28:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Dietary reference intake, it's meeting those or is it meeting? So the DRIs are meeting what are your requirements, if you will. And then the guidelines really translate that into foods and looking at dietary patterns, right? what type of pattern will give you the foods that will meet those. But I feel like at least with this one, we've taken it a step further and it's not just meeting, it's, you know, being able to establish what are some healthy amounts of foods and patterns that can give you the flexibility that you need and to give you the health outcomes that we're searching for in the U.S.

29:20It was the 2010 guidelines that actually created the three pattern.

29:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And, you know, I think it's almost too prescriptive for people. They say, well, there's a healthy U.S. pattern, there's a Mediterranean, there's a vegetarian. I don't really like any of those. So, you know, I think that, you know, what Heather was saying is what we did was create a framework. And if you want to lean that framework toward vegetarian or you want to lean it toward Mediterranean, it's easy to do that. You can pick and choose how you make your foods. If you pick and choose your foods based, but hit within that 1.2 to 1.6, chances are you're also going to meet your nutrient needs, which is kind of what we were going for, that if people understand that that's kind of a goal range, then you're probably going to be good for body composition and also your nutrient content.

30:14If you're out of that range, for whatever reason you choose, you need to know that those are both at risk. Does that mean you need to be supplementing? So again, I think guidelines for the public, for the consumer should give them some targets to understand where they should be looking. It's not prescriptive that everybody has to do it this way, which is kind of where the last guideline sort of leaned. It's kind of like, you know, we know best and you should all eat this way. And I think the current guidelines are fair and logical and they're flexible. Yeah. And it kind of leads into this discussion about the pyramid, right?

30:49The inverted pyramid, because a lot of times people are saying, well, you know, you don't really have those patterns anymore. The my plate's gone away and I have this pyramid. How should we be understanding that? And it's like I said, the two girls at the airport, they said, meet, meet, meet. I heard them like, what are the new changes? Meet, meet, meet, some green beans and a lot of rice. And I look at that and you think of the pyramid and it's because there's frozen green beans at the top and some rice with beans on the bottom. And I chuckled and I'm like, I looked at them and I think their mom thought I was crazy.

31:18And so I just moved on. But it's, I think that's an education. Oh, by the way, I was gonna like, yeah, let's not go there.

31:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I don't want to be a creeper. But it raises the concept, what do we do with the pyramid? And I think if - The old one or the new one? The new one. It's not meant to be prescriptive. It's not meant, and unfortunately for those girls, they were picking foods that were on the pyramid and that's not the intent. It was showing images and then understanding concepts, right? So for us, it's, and I think for most people, they're getting stuck on the idea that, no, you don't have to have, it's not just I have to have a ribeye and whole milk and a banana or grapes. This is the concept. The concept is having real foods as protein-rich foods, prioritizing animal-sourced foods with fruits and vegetables together.

32:00There's no priority there. It's across the boards. And then being mindful of your carbohydrate intake and trying to highlight whole grains. And I think it kind of goes back to what you're saying with what are the dietary guidelines meant to do. It's giving you flexibility, giving you concepts. And then you are permitted, based on your food choices and your likes and dislikes, to pick and choose those foods that can meet those needs.

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33:03Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Right now, I'm using their eye cream, broad-spectrum, a sunscreen, and topical body supplement. This is skin care for people who care about longevity, not just quick cosmetic wins. You can get 15 % off OneSkin by going to oneskin.co and using the code DrLion. That's 15 % off oneskin.co and use the code DrLion. Do you think that people have gotten stuck on the idea that the RDA and the guidelines, If I'm understanding correctly, you were involved in the last set of the guidelines as well. You have been following the guidelines for at least 40 years. Be careful. Be very careful. What I'm trying to unpack is this level of controversy over the guidelines, I think, is overshadowing in part the positive implications that could happen if people put their, I don't know if bias is the right word, but put that aside and actually unravel what is it that these guidelines are meant to do and how they are then being deployed in the community.

34:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So one of the things that you had mentioned, Heather, is that the guidelines are to create patterns. So the 0.8 grams is the RDF protein. And then yes, we can move on from protein. But again, this is the most controversial part about the whole guidelines. saturated fat. So we would say that it's been a ruse, I think, at this point that it's all about protein. But then when you start talking further, it is about the saturated fat. And we're going to get there. So I just want to make sure. I don't think it's the picture of steak. It's the ribeye and the whole milk. Yeah, that's the one. You know, I was there.

34:47Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I was there with you. And I got a sign that had a big steak. So did we. Actually, no, I got the sourdough. No, I got the sourdough and I moved it and switched back to the beat. Well, the ranchers tried to take my steak. And I told them that I was going to put their eye out with a pencil if they did. But the statements that, again, I'm hearing from clinicians is that if we stay at the 0.8 grams per kg, anything above that you shouldn't be doing because there is no benefit. But then we talk about nutrient density. And to be clear, I would say that you've been arguing for 40 years, not to put a time on it, but 40 years that the RDA for protein was dangerously inadequate.

35:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Is that overstating? Maybe? Yeah, I think I would go that direction. Again, I mean, it's based on nitrogen balance, and I have spent 40 years staying away from the term nitrogen balance. I think that it is what it is. Nitrogen balance was evolved really out of animal science as a way of measuring growth. And when you're actually having a tangible growth, the nitrogen's accumulating, and you know you can measure that. But when you're talking about non-growing adults who shouldn't be gaining or losing nitrogen, what does nitrogen balance really mean in a short-term study? And like I said earlier, I can't think of any health outcome that it relates to.

36:14So, you know, for 40 years, I've avoided arguing the case because it's just so entrenched in nutrition that what we need to look for is other outcomes and, you know, body composition, nutrient density, you know, glutathione or oxidative stress, cognitive function and, you know, serotonin and dopamine. I think those are outcomes that are important to protein. Even glycemic regulation with using protein to reduce carbohydrate, those are all outcomes that are very meaningful to protein and have absolutely nothing to do with nitrogen balance. Yeah, and if I can just take this a step further, because I think that's, I would question physicians on this key point, and that is the DRIs are not based on health outcomes for protein.

36:58So that's the first piece, right? What are they based on? The nitrogen balance, right? So that's the first one. And then I go back to say to them, all right, when you look at the guidelines, most support what's in there. And then you have to go back and say, well, were there any protein-related questions in the past? And that is unanimously no. Protein-related questions as collecting the data, because this is consensus data. So the guidelines obviously make recommendations on food. So are there any protein food recommendations until 2025? No. So we are under the assumption that the guidelines are appropriate with the dietary patterns, but yet there hadn't been any protein-related questions, protein-specific, food-based, or protein-nutrient questions with a health outcome until now.

37:39So I think that's why physicians really just dismiss protein, because whether the DRIs have been set for 1980... We were there. No, it's with them. 2005.

37:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah. Okay, you were definitely there. Yeah, you know, and so they're there, and because most people eat above 0.8, we're covered, right? That's generally what most physicians say, but then that question of is more, better, if so, how much, what outcome are you referring to, that hasn't been explored until recently. So I feel like physicians still have this mindset. Nutrition scientists still have this mindset because it's never really been systematically asked and answered until 2025. And then when it was, their framework has shifted, and now it's a very different... They feel like it's the same.

38:24We've been seeing this. The research has been coming alongside. But the USDA and HHS have never addressed these questions to know, all right, well, we really should be making these recommendations based on these outcomes. People continue to pick and choose how they interpret the DRIs. And the DRIs for protein are 10 % to 35 % of calories, which is actually... Well, that's the DGA. The Dietary Guidelines for Americans are the DGAs. The DGAs. But then the AMDRs really were developed for the Dietary Guidelines. They're part of the Dietary Guidelines. Yeah. I'm sorry. They're part of the Dietary Reference Intakes.

39:01The jurisdiction of the numbers is under the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute for Food and Nutrition. And they basically define what the RDA is going to be. And they also then attempt to try and determine if there's an upper limit. So is there a range of nutrient intake? And in some cases, we have reasonable numbers. In other cases, we have pretty vague numbers. Could you give me an example? I don't even know. Does vitamin D have an upper limit? Like vitamin C has an upper limit, but I'm blanking on how much. But most of them are some vitamins and minerals that have upper limits.

39:45Macronutrients don't. Upper limits are really about toxicity. So iron would have an upper limit. Right.

39:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And vitamin A, some of the fat solubles. And so the upper limits haven't been studied very well. But the concept was that for every nutrient, there's sort of a safe range. There's an acceptable range in there. Could we define nutrient for people? A vitamin, mineral, amino acids, protein in general, carbohydrates, which I wanted to get to because people are so enamored with the RDA for protein, and they ignore the fact that there may be an acceptable macronutrient distribution range. But there's also an RDA for carbohydrates, which is set at 130 grams per day. And yet the dietary guidelines say that everyone should eat between 45 and 65%, which is two to three times the RDA with no justification.

40:39There's no science to justify it. There's no statement to justify it. So they totally ignore the RDA in that case and yet are absolutely wedded to the RDA on protein. Why do you think that...

40:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you have speculations as to how that... I have lots of speculations on that. One that you could say without four or five letter words? You know, certainly the individuals who prefer a more vegetarian diet don't like guidelines that require more protein because that requires a lot more skill and thinking to do. And also, if you're going to perpetuate an idea about saturated fat, then you can demonize food, so you're better off with a low protein intake. So both of those, when you go to higher protein intakes and you utilize animal protein as part of it, both the total protein is challenged and the saturated fat become challenged.

41:33And there's a lot of people with a lot of invested interest in maintaining those two concepts.

41:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And then as you break out the National Academy of Science, is that right, which then informs the... So they provide the numbers. And as Heather was saying earlier, then the dietary guidelines are supposedly the consumer-facing food interpretation of those guidelines. How do we put this into practice for... So they reference the RDA at times. And that's why most of the terminologies, we're getting enough protein and it's based on the 0.8 grams, but then we have this range of protein, right? And so that's typically, or what we would think is where the 10 to 35 % of protein, right? So we have never defined the AMDR.

42:17So the AMDR is the acceptable macronutrient distribution range and every macronutrient has one. And so for protein, it's 10 to 35%. So theoretically that range should be used as part of a healthy dietary pattern. And as we've said in the report and otherwise, that whole range has never been included. Generally, it's about 14 to 15, maybe I'll say 14 to 16 % of protein has been what's recommended in these dietary patterns. And so, you know, you have the recommendations that allow for more protein, but yet the dietary guidelines have never come out and said, well, you could even have a higher protein dietary pattern because you're still meeting all of the DRI, the recommendations, the requirements for protein.

42:58And we're never, there's no upper limit at the 30 % of protein. We're never even there. And even the modeling that we did in our report is actually nowhere near the 30%. The 1.2 to 1.6 typically equates to what would you say about 20 to 25%, something like that. And so again, it's not even high protein. So it's, we always say higher because it is higher than what most, it's higher than the RDA and it's higher than what most Americans are consuming, but it's still well within that range that's been recommended with the guidelines.

43:29Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And the AMDR, which is the acceptable macronutrient dietary distribution range, the distribution is that pattern. It's not how much per meal, right? It's the range at which you could consume. So it's the amount of calories in your diet that are coming from protein. My next question is, was that put into place for a reason? Meaning, was that put into place to ensure leucine requirements were hit or that the essential amino acid requirements were hit? Why do we have an AMDR? I think it's just really to reflect that what is a safe range that from anything that we know. Safe range, but think about diabetes.

44:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's a safe range. Essentially, a 300 gram for a metabolically unhealthy person... 300 grams of carbohydrates is not going to be healthy. That's not healthy. Yeah. I mean, and even 45 % of calories is probably not healthy. And so that's my problem is that the guidelines have decided one RDA is important and the other RDA is not. And that's just not scientifically valid. And so, you know, I think those ranges are basically useful to a consumer-facing audience that say, this is what we think you can have. This is your range of choice. And I think we're trying to move into an era of personalized nutrition, personalized healthcare and nutrition, and that the person who is more toward diabetes needs that low carbohydrate.

45:09rate, but there may be somebody who's struggling more with heart disease, lipid problems, who a lower fat diet makes sense. But having a public health guideline, one guideline that says everybody should be that way, I think is where we've got to get away from. And again, I think the new guidelines allow for that, allow for people to recognize what their situation is and also bring in their own personal preference of what they want to eat. Yes, I think the ranges are helpful for, and we'll hear this all the time from dietitians that it's helpful because it gives you an idea of a starting point.

45:41And I would say to your point, if you're prioritizing protein and you're looking at your protein foods, then yeah, you can be at the higher percent at 20, 25%. And then, you know, depending on your health condition, you know, that 40 to 45 % with carbohydrates is probably where you need to be. And then fat kind of takes care of itself in the middle, right? So these percentages, I don't think inherently are bad or inappropriate when you're trying to do a pattern. It just seems like most Americans don't understand that, right? So that's the other problem. The AMDRs maybe aren't working, or maybe it's because we have this small range that protein's at 14 or 15, and so we don't need to go any more than that.

46:17So I don't know. Maybe it's that consumers aren't understanding how you would use an AMDR. As you know, as a muscle head, like we did, we knew exactly what our AMDRs, our macros are. I know exactly what my protein is. You know, the grams. And so, but for most consumers, that's not the case. And so I think that's why if we can get back to a pattern of types of foods, prioritizing protein, right? And you've said this, you can go back and say it again in terms of how you think of the diet, because I love how you add this context. If somebody's sitting down with wanting to make a dinner, what should they focus on?

46:48I was cooking it. I was cooking it.

46:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Right? But it's starting with... Where did we order again? No, it's just, it's starting with protein foods and then working your way from there. But now I have to ask the elephant in the room question, which is, everyone's like, you're so weird. That's not an elephant in the room. But it is for me. We are talking about protein, but you have said numerous times that we don't have a protein requirement. What we really have that sucks is having a mentee that you talk to every day. We don't have a protein requirement, but what we really have is an essential amino acid requirement. Okay. Can you unpack that a bit because the guidelines, it doesn't really take into account that.

47:36We all have a requirement for 20 amino acids to make the proteins in the body and also the other metabolic aspects. 11 of them we potentially can make. Nine of them we can't, so they're called essential or indispensable. sensible. Protein ends up just being really the delivery system for getting those that represents the food sources of where we get those amino acids. So I think the era coming up, I think one of the things we're going to have to be more, you know, we treat protein sort of like it's a vitamin pill. We say, you know, we might have a vitamin pill that has 14 vitamins in it, And then we don't spend a lot of time discussing the color of the pill.

48:24That's kind of like discussing the type of protein. What we really discuss are the 14 vitamins. And we need to think more about the individual amino acids that are in that pill, in that protein. And so I think that's the next era. And that gets into the difference between does protein cause a change in lean body mass? Well, protein, those amino acids have lots of other roles. And we know that some of them are signals like leucine and protein synthesis, or leucine provides the nitrogen that allows us to make other amino acids like arginine, which is essential for blood pressure. We know that tryptophan is essential for serotonin, which is related to sleep and mood.

49:06We know that phenylalanine is related to dopamine and your cognitive function. We know that methionine is related to glutathione and oxidase. So there's all these other rules that is totally obscured by a focus on, well, it didn't change lean body mass. And it gets into that. You started to allude to it earlier about oxidation of amino acids or, you know, are they wasted? Well, all of those things that I just mentioned are actually amino acids getting metabolized. So does that mean having serotonin to allow your brain to function is a waste? I mean, that's the lack of understanding of amino acid metabolism that is prevalent out there.

49:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And my fear is, again, as I'm a practicing physician still to this day, I think that, God willing, I will always be because it's important to be able to help guide people. The reason I bring this up is because if you have 0.8 grams per kg and people are saying, okay, well, everyone is getting enough. As you pointed out, if Americans are consuming 1.1, 50 % or above, but 50 % are below. And then if we are still continuing to hear a narrative that red meat is dangerous, which we still are, even though the guidelines have put them on a pyramid and cardboard cutouts, which is awesome. I wish I would have kept it.

50:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:There is still decades of narrative and inherited scientific belief, which comes from physicians and people that we're already eating and consuming too much. And where I'm going with this is I am concerned, especially with the use of GLP-1s, which then further reduce appetite. And with aging, people are not consuming or are at risk. There are nutrients of concern, and this is my longest monologue ever. When I say nutrients of concern, I am talking about those essential amino acids. Because if, you know, I think about my 70-year-old mom, who probably doesn't listen to this podcast, 75, sorry, mom, but she doesn't have a big appetite.

51:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And if she's already hearing the message, she's eating enough protein, and I get concerned about her ability to produce glutathione, then I have to turn my attention to the essential amino acids, for example, leucine, which the totality recommendation is 2 to 3 grams per day, which if you would then translate that over to dietary protein intake, that's like 30 grams, which I understand is below the RDA, but that is what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned that our knowledge of the essential amino acids is largely based on nitrogen balance type techniques also. And that, you know, if you look at the individual requirement for the essential amino acids, they're about 25 % of the total protein.

52:08But if you look in the human body and make up 50 % of the proteins of the amino acids in our body... Would you just pause and explain that a little bit? So, you know, when you're putting together a protein, you're using these amino acids like building blocks to put it together. And if you look within the total human body and look, the essential amino acids make up 50 % in the body of all those amino acids. But if you look at the dietary guidelines, the guidelines say that only getting 25 % of those amino acids is enough. And I worry about that because it's based on techniques that don't really look at the metabolic outcome.

52:49So I think that's an area that is going to have to get explored more. And my concern with it is in the plant-based narrative that people should have more plant-based diets. Americans, as they do that, shift to using grains. They don't shift to using beans and lentils and things that would be higher protein quality. So of the plant-based protein in the American diet, more than 80 % of it comes from grains. and almost all of it from wheat, which is limiting or deficient in at least four of those essential amino acids. So we've done a lot of modeling with that. And if you get below 50 % animal proteins in your diet with the current American pattern of using grains...

53:36What was the last... 75 % of...

53:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Okay, this is what... Right. I want to understand what that looks like, what an example of that would be, kind of. So basically, if someone is a... What are Americans eating? So if Americans are eating... So you're concerned about the idea that there is still the message that we're eating enough protein. And so what we know for absolute certainty over the last 40 years of the dietary guidelines and the food guide pyramid is that it's changed the dietary pattern. We know that when it appeared that egg consumption, dairy consumption, beef consumption went down by 35 % to 40 % across the board. And people say, well, protein didn't really change because people started eating more chicken.

54:24And that's true, but they started eating it in forms that weren't as healthy. They started eating it as barbecued wings, and they started eating it as fried, you know, and breaded chicken patties and chicken fingers and all kinds of things like that. So they brought with it a lot of carbohydrates and fats as opposed. And what we know is that But with the pyramid, they increased their grain consumption by 40%. They increased their consumption of seed oils by 55%. That's the original, the original pyramid. The original pyramid. They made all of those changes. People say, well, the pyramid didn't cause those changes, but it actually did shift people.

55:04In 2010, the dietary guidelines recognized that, and they dropped the pyramid. They recognized that people had increased their dietary intake of calories by 350 grams. And Steve Simpson from Australia hypothesized that that was part of a dilution of the protein, that the human body, the humans actually eat toward a protein target. And basically, by diluting the protein in the diet with carbohydrates, we ended up eating more carbs to maintain that protein intake. So the net effect was we lowered the quality of the protein. We increased our carb intake and increased our calorie intake, and we started getting our fats.

55:42And basically, that came with trans fats, which were two to three times more toxic than saturated fats ever were. And so, you know, everything about it distorted the diet.

55:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But you said something that really piqued my interest that I believe is important, and that was that 50 % of the protein consumption or content of a human's diet, if that is... If 50 % or less comes from, is it animals? Yeah, either way. However you want to say that, so 50 % or less comes from protein, animal-based protein sources, people are not going to hit their nutrients. So in animal foods... Essential amino acids. So not nutrients in totality, but the essential amino acids. So in animal foods in general, essential amino acids make up 45 % to 50 % of the amino acids in that food. In plant-based foods, it's more like 35%.

56:44So you'd have to eat a lot more of them. What we know from when people go more plant-based, they decrease the quantity of the protein they eat, and they also begin to decrease the quality because of that, both essential amino acids and also bioavailability. If you look at the NHANES data, our national survey data, what you find is that when people shift that way, they shift to eating more grains. They don't eat a lot more beans and lentils and nuts and seeds. They shift toward grains. Beans and lentils make up less than 10 % of even the plant-based, actually of the total protein, but only about 18 % of the plant-based protein.

57:28So the rest is all coming from those very poor quality grains. And so we've modeled that. And basically, if you're getting, you know, as you go from a high protein, animal protein, say 100%, you can meet your essential amino acid requirements with less than 40 grams of protein per day if that's your only target. But as you go down less animal protein toward more and more plant-based, assuming that you're always making it from grains at the point of 50%. If you get below 50 % animal proteins, then the RDA for protein can't possibly meet your essential amino acid needs. So you have to then eat more and more protein to get to it.

58:10So if you get down to a vegetarian, a vegan-based diet, you're going to probably have to be in the 100 and you're going to probably be approaching 120 to 130 grams of protein to meet your essential amino acid requirements?

58:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's important and also not discussed. Again, there's the macronutrient intake within the micronutrient and then the actual quality. Because in my mind, if we're increasing our carbohydrate intake, and I really want to wrap up the protein conversation, but we can't wrap it up without talking about essential amino acids and in part their utility. The idea that we would increase carbohydrates, in my mind, we would then distort the amino acid composition of the diet and decrease the amino acid composition, the essential amino acid composition of the diet. Would you agree with that? Okay. Meaning, right, if we are reducing our quality protein and then following in line with the patterns of what people are eating, if they're moving to wheat-based protein, which, for example, we know is low in branched-chain amino acids and low in lysine, then we create...

59:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Dr. Methionine and tryptophan. Dr. And then, if you take it one step further, we know that methionine is really important for glutathione production and cysteine. And as we think about an aging population, I know we are focused on protein as a whole, but one step beyond that is the individual needs of these essential amino acids. And that was a long roundabout way to kind of get to, because we are going to talk about fat and saturated fat is a part of fat. And I think to be fair to protein, we have to address the essential amino acids and how we're going to get that. And I think with aging, if people are going to choose that way of eating, it's okay.

1:00:05Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But then supplementing with essential amino acids has utility. The lower the protein intake, the lower the quality, then one would supplement. And most of the other nutrients, the vitamins and minerals, also come with those foods. And I mean, you can go to fortified foods or you can use supplements. But people need to be aware of those liabilities. And again, I don't think the intent of the guidelines now are to be as prescriptive as before. They're basically to say, these are the goals, and when you get outside of the goals, you need to know what liabilities go with that. And, you know, I think that, again, I think a major change is we're reprioritizing how people look at the fat and the saturated fat.

1:00:50We're saying that you should get your fat, if saturated fat is important to you, and frankly, I don't think it's important to most people, But putting that aside, if saturated fat is important to you, you should get it from real foods. You shouldn't get it from hydrogenated vegetable oils that are put into cookies and cakes and pastries. We know that is the number one source of calories in the American diet. Is saturated fat? No, it's cookies and pastries. I see. And the number two is bread. And number three is sugar-added soft drinks. and number four is chips and crackers. Those four categories of food make up 25 % of the calories in the American diet, and they have essentially no nutritional value.

1:01:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:To wrap up, and by the way, I've seen you eat all of the things on that list, just to be fair. This is actually personal. For lunch, right? Yes. Now here comes my personal question. How much protein do you eat per day? And from your perspective, how many grams, which by the way, I know this because you have not changed your dietary pattern in 20 years. That's boring, right? Yes. But how much protein do you eat a day? I aim between 100 and 120. I wish I wrote that down and then showed it so that I could say that. Between 100 and 120. Yeah. Is it fair to say that the more active you are, perhaps the lower your protein is for that day, maybe closer to 100?

1:02:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you think about it that way? No, I don't really tie it directly to activity. I think it's just more randomness. But as you know, I'm pretty careful about first meal and last meal of the day are pretty high protein. They're both going to have at least 40 grams in them. I was going to say, you better define high now. Yeah, they're going to be higher than what most people eat, other than the people sitting at this table. But, you know, I'm pretty careful that I'm exceeding what I think I need for protein synthesis that time of the day. So, you know, those two will get me into the 80-90 range. And then really the other is, you know, what do I do for that middle meal?

1:03:07And as you've pointed out a couple of times, I'm getting older. And so my calorie needs are low. So I'm usually more concerned about calories at that meal than I am necessarily about protein.

1:03:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Final word. I feel like this is the, what is it? Family feud. Final answer is between 100 and 120. Yeah. Do you ever go below 100? Would you ever recommend someone go below 100 grams?

1:03:38Dr. People are really low...you know, women, for example, that are at, you know, less than 100 pounds, if you use 1.5, are going to be below 100 grams.

1:03:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I don't recommend anyone go below 100 grams. I was getting to the point that we have studied a lot of women relative to biomarkers of glycemic regulations and insulin and glucagon and lipid metabolism and things like that. And we find that a lot of the benefits we see of a higher protein have to be above the 100-gram range. So if you're looking for things of satiety and thermogenesis and glycemic regulation, you really need to be in that range or you're not going to get it. We find that if women drift below it into the 90 or lower, they'll lose all of the benefits of a higher protein diet. And we hear all the time, because when you're smaller, right?

1:04:37We're smaller women. No, I'm just kidding. Yes, yes, I am smaller. But I'll have many people, smaller women will come up and say it's impossible to eat that much. And then when you start breaking it down, it's three to four ounces of meat or poultry. And you start showing them it's a cup of Greek yogurt. And then they're already at that 90 to 100 level. So I think it's a misconception at times when you have somebody that's smaller and they think they just can't eat that much protein. And then when you start putting it in foods and meals and patterns, it's like, oh, yeah, this is very doable. And so it's really a small number of people that actually would have a problem eating that much.

1:05:11But it comes back to the animal protein again that, you know, four ounces of chicken breast will give you 32 grams of protein. That requires three cups of cooked beans to do it. And I couldn't eat that much, let alone a 100-pound fever. But I just want to add, though, you're never saying it's this or this, right? That's why variety and mixing and matching, and we've even said that in our report, beans, peas, and lentils, legumes are a great source of fiber and folate and can add some protein to the diet. We actually increase the amount of the recommendations. But it does come with carbs.

1:05:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And I want to, you know, and as a hundred and, I don't know, maybe 110 pounds as a female, I am one of those people, I do not like to eat in the morning. As you see, well, maybe you didn't see, but I'm all over the place all the time, moving very fast. For me, what I do is I might have one or two eggs that are hard-boiled fast, and then I'll add in essential amino acids. I'll add in a scoop of essential amino acids. As you know this, I use body health, tastes great. I put strawberry, strawberry in water, strawberry in tea, one scoop with my eggs. And that way, I mean, I don't know how big your appetite in the morning is, but mine's not huge.

1:06:29Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And so this allows me for that first meal to hit 40 or so, the equivalent nutrient density of 40, roughly 40 grams in the morning. So I don't know how much protein you eat in totality. What is your go-to? Now, these are the personal questions. We know Don. Don also adds in dessert. He didn't say that. But for your, for when you personally consume protein, what is your, because you train, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm older now, but I mean, I still have that mentality and I, we still have. More mature. Just say old. Old sounds much better. And don't call me a senior power lifter because that's really bad.

1:07:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:140 to 150 grams a day. That's great. 140 to 150 grams a day. How tall are you? Well, 5 '1 now. Too many years of squatting. Okay. Okay, incredible. And are you? And I'm 128, 130. Do you do supplementation or is that all food? No, all foods. But I am a breakfast researcher and I love breakfast. So for me, very different profile in the morning that it all comes from foods. A lot of times it's eggs. How many eggs? Four egg whites, only because I don't like the taste of yolk. So I don't want this. I just don't like the taste of yolk. So for me, I do like the white. Okay, clip this. Greek yogurt, some lean meat, steak, like flank steak, steroids.

1:07:49I add that to the mix. Have it every day. Whole grain. And that, to me, I really do like a bigger breakfast. And then for me, it's timing. Same thing for lunch, very similar, dinner. And I usually have one or two snacks that are generally Greek yogurt, something like that.

1:08:05Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I love hearing that, that you're getting between 130 to 150 grams of protein. Most women really struggle to get that. And they're thinking, oh, it's so much. And it can totally be done if you cannot get it through diet. Because to be fair, it would be six eggs to equal that first six whole eggs. I don't know, six, it doesn't have to be whole, but it's close to that to hit that protein. I can't do that. So if you are listening and you're out there and you really want to hit your protein target in the morning, a smaller meal, a little bit of Greek yogurt with essential amino acids can totally work.

1:08:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The other thing that you had said, which is how I first found you, was your research on teenagers eating high-protein versus low-protein breakfast. And we did the same thing. I mean, they eat about our, in all of our studies, about a year ago, we completed a study on 150 breakfast-skipping teens. So the mindset that most initially said they skip breakfast for various reasons and then they start the study. If you have healthy food or food in general, they will eat it. That's what we found. Oh, really? It's just not available to them? Most of the time, that's what they'll say, that they wanted to sleep as late as possible.

1:09:16And so having to get up and make something was just not something they were going to do. And a lot of breakfast skippers actually don't like Ritidit cereals. They don't like carbohydrate-rich foods in the morning. At least generally, that's what the survey would suggest. More of it's that they stayed up too late, and so they had to get up and go. And so when we do these interventions that include about 24 to 30 grams of protein, most of which is animal-based sources, we have 90 % compliance. And we did a six-month feeding trial. That's great. We gave foods to normal and high protein at another group that continued to skip breakfast.

1:09:46And so we consistently see improvements in a lot of health outcomes with these studies. And so it is doable. It's the next step is how do you make that right? So research is great. It works. How do you implement that in a family that skip breakfast, that don't have those foods readily available? And so I'm actually anxious to see what happens with the school breakfast meals, the programs, because now with the recommendations to bring some animal source proteins back, some eggs or lean meats and dairy, emphasizing that, I mean, I think that's going to be a benefit. And that's what a lot of that research suggests with breakfast.

1:10:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You also did fMRI studies on their brains. What did that show? So that was a bit different. So the fMRI is looking at a functional image. We base it on food cravings and food reward. And so that kind of pairs well with satiety that we know, or at least we proposed that eating more protein is more filling, more satiating, and we weren't sure about whether it has an effect on food reward or food cravings. And so within those trials, they would eat our breakfast meals. And then, you know, we would always do fMRI right before generally people start to overeat, which is usually in the afternoon or evening.

1:10:53And so that's when they would go into the scanner and we would show highly appealing pictures of foods compared those to non-appetizing other images. And we show that when they had a breakfast that was higher in protein, their food cravings were blunted. The corticolimbic regions of the brain that are tied into food reward and food motivation, those were blunted.

1:11:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:What I believe is so important from that perspective is people will think, I'm just mentally weak or I need a quick energy pick me after. And looking at fMRI studies, it shows that actually it's not just your, what's the word, your preferences, meaning, well, I'm just going to grab this cookie or whatever, that there are things happening in the brain that are changing. Oh, yeah. I mean, and then, you know, we've also done some cognitive function assessments. And we did this in the schools in Kansas City. And so when you start thinking about brain and performance, we are also seeing with those studies, and it was published second two months ago, that those that were eating a higher protein breakfast, it was called an egg-cellent breakfast in the classroom.

1:11:57So we - I wonder why were there They were eggs. They were obviously eggs that they actually performed better on those cognitive function tests compared to the kids that skip breakfast and compared to the kids that ate breakfast at home. And we I mean, dietary recalls, as you know, are tricky in in these are middle school students. I would suspect that the quality of the breakfast at home was just not as good. It was a grab and go. A lot of times were grain based. And so we showed that, you know, in those trials, those that were higher protein, animal based foods, three hours later, they actually had better.

1:12:29cognitive performance on various tests.

1:12:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Was it dose dependent? Meaning did it have to hit that, you know, in my mind, the muscle health component, for example, two and a half grams of leucine to then have an effect versus say if it was five grams of protein? Yeah. So you're putting your like tightly controlled hat on, which is what I usually do. These were skulls, right? So they did eat is not something that we could quantify, but you know, generally the meals provided about 20 grams of protein. I'm smiling because I love tightly controlled trials and I would love to say that, but it was helter skelter. Like sometimes they would eat, sometimes they wouldn't eat.

1:13:03On the day of testing, they did eat that, but it was about 20 grams of protein, but we couldn't do a dose response study within that trial. But it does lend itself to say, are there additional benefits with protein, right? I mean, obviously it goes back to, you know, muscle health, obviously, you know, looking at essential amino acids, nutrient quality, and then you are starting to see some of these other ones that, to your point, can get linked back to a lot of these mechanisms, right, with amino acids, and we're just not there yet. Like, that research hasn't gone that way.

1:13:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That is, and I promise I'll be done talking about protein, but that's actually my biggest concern. All of us who have been in medicine or science for a period of time, we have an evolution of our thinking. And of course, as meatheads, no pun intended, but probably. So my first desire was body composition. Selfishly, I was very interested into muscle. Yes, Lane Norton sat in the back. I was a much better student. I sat in the front row on Lane, never let him live that down. But I was very interested in one thing then. And then obviously through my career, it was then muscle and then sarcopenia, doing geriatrics.

1:14:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But now to me, it is this individualized protein, which is not the right word. I'm going to say this again. To me now, it's this individualized nutrient profile. And to me, I think that as individuals age and as I see various stressors in people's lives, that we don't have a way of saying, hey, you are someone who doesn't make glutathione well. And this is a master antioxidant. And in fact, we can look at your blood and say, you know what? You are someone that needs to A, supplement glutathione, or B, have potentially a diet higher in methionine or some type of ratio. And so my interest now is what are those health outcomes later on that we are missing with this broad conversation?

1:14:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So that is just selfishly where I'm starting to think. Yeah, I would just say for me, it's been this long history of there were some mechanistic data, right? I'd say most of it would be muscle protein synthesis. Absolutely. There needs to be a lot more research on those other endpoints, but it goes back to the dietary guidelines. I think for me personally is, you know, this is what is consumer facing. And so having that holistic recommendation of, you know, this is the types of foods, this is the priority in your protein. I think sometimes the science will come along once those things occur. I mean, we've had enough, I think, evidence, consistent evidence for weight management or healthy weight.

1:15:34I think that's why the guidelines have been so instrumental. Some of these other health benefits, I think we need to, you know, obviously target. But as you know, with the dietary guidelines, it's typically they look at less mechanisms and more clinical outcomes, cardiovascular disease risks, cancer risks. Neurocognitive function is one, and I think that's where essential amino acids could play a role there. But it's hard. You play in both worlds, right? I mean, both of us have done mechanistic work, and I think there's a lot with essential amino acids that need to be there. but I just look at the fact that where we are in 2025, we're having a conversation about protein.

1:16:09We haven't had it before. And I think it's okay for consumers to understand that, that it's okay. Because I think for many years, they haven't had that conversation that it's okay to have the protein that you're having. Yeah.

1:16:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And we know that by the data, protein consumption, beef consumption, egg consumption, dairy consumption, these are, they're down. I think it's population specific. I think that we were talking about, 1.1 is an average, but we know that a lot of, particularly women, are very low, and they're avoiding those kinds of animal foods. And adolescent females, I mean, it's very clear with N-Hangstade and others that they are the ones that actually are deficient in protein, below the level of the RDA for adolescents. And older women over 60 are also a very high percentage. And so one of the other comments you made earlier that I think is useful for everybody to keep in mind is that the meal amount that a student would get, a school-age student versus an older adult.

1:17:10There's been a lot of research in the last 20 years that as we get older, our efficiency of protein use goes down. And we think that the meal distribution probably becomes more important. A 20-gram protein meal for a 14-year-old is very different than a 20-gram meal for a 45-year-old. And so the levels that she was using actually are reasonably high for that age group, where we might not consider a 20-gram meal good for any of us to max out the systems we're interested in. So I wouldn't want the listeners to come away thinking, wow, all those kids aren't getting enough because that's reasonable amount for school-age kids.

1:17:56Well, we would say, too, I don't think there's definitive evidence or we would have maybe tried to add that in the recommendations in terms of per meal, right? Absolutely. Across the boards because, again, the dietary guidelines have to be generalized across at least in adults or kids. And we're just not there yet, right? And a lot of it has to do with there's so many confounding factors. it does go back to the quality of the protein, I think also drives the amount within a meal. And so then when you're looking at 1.2 to 1.6, you kind of do the math, right? And you look at your patterns and, you know, it is generally for most people somewhere between 20 and 40 grams, right?

1:18:3020, 30 grams. I mean, every time you're sitting down to have something to eat. And so very doable, but then it can be flexible based on somebody's preferences.

1:18:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Friends, I wanted to personally let you know that our next four-week Forever Strong Foundations Challenge begins in July. This is back because you asked for it. This challenge is built around the same evidence-based, principled nutrition and training you've come to expect from us. along with, I'm very excited, updated content designed to help you build and preserve the one organ system, that one system that matters most for longevity, which is skeletal muscle. We'll also be hosting live events throughout the challenge, including conversations with me, members of my nutrition team, and trusted fitness professionals who will help answer your questions and support your progress.

1:19:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:What excites me most is not just the information, it's the community. Every challenge brings together people who are committed to taking ownership of their health, raising their standards and investing in their future. Now, I look forward to working alongside you as we continue to build a stronger, healthier and more resilient community because man it is up to you and let's get to work. I do want to move to saturated fat because that is for the scientists seems to be really the the big sticking point. Dietary guidelines from my understanding is to inform and quote guide consumers. Is that fair to say?

1:20:12Well the past guidelines were actually not meant for consumers. These were. I would say these were more consumer-facing, and the guidelines are very clear on that. So yes, for 2025, these were abbreviated. Again, also a sticking point for most scientists because they're not as expansive, but I think the goal was to be consumer-facing so people could read them and understand.

1:20:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:My second question, are dietary guidelines for Americans designed to treat disease, or are they designed for a healthy, air quotes, person? I would say in ours, it's probably one I wouldn't say necessarily treat. Treat and nutrition gets a little tricky. But I would say with these and how these were approached, it is healthy to individuals that have comorbidities, whether it is obesity or cardiovascular disease risk, diabetes. Those three health outcomes were not critically or systematically assessed across all the research questions. But I would say, and we've talked about this, if you can control or manage obesity and get individuals down to a healthy weight, ultimately it's not about weight.

1:21:16It's about visceral fat or body composition. Right. But that generally is what we're seeing. And most people say, well, this is all about weight loss. No, it's where you are if you're healthy and you want to prevent unhealthy fat gain. These guidelines are developed for that reason. That's why it's not just a certain number. You've said this all the time. You've got just 1.2. It's 1.2 to 1.6. They can choose what foods you want within that. So it's a flexible range. And so it is healthy versus, along with people that have certain types of conditions and chronic diseases. People have criticized the report because we did use what were weight loss.

1:21:57They were energy restricted diets. Well, hang on, because I get that all the time. Not all of them. So when we do a systematic review, it had like the intent was, you know, healthy weight. It was weight loss. And it was also weight maintenance after weight loss. So it was all of those things. And the only reason I'm adamant about that is because every question is, is why did you just use weight loss? And we didn't. But unfortunately, most of the data that's out there is with energy restriction. Yeah. But the point I was going to get to is we know that 75 % of Americans are overweight. And so the question is, how many calories excess are they eating?

1:22:32And if you really ask for that, it's between 300 and 500 calories. And so what we actually did was look at studies that were 300 to 500 calorie restrictions. In other words, we were normalizing people. And basically, most of the studies, the people came into equilibrium at a new weight. They were long enough that they actually would plateau. So I would argue that we just simply normalized the individuals. And the idea that we shouldn't have used any energy restriction means that people making that argument are arguing we should have dietary guidelines to keep people fat. And that simply is a really lousy argument on my opinion.

1:23:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I'm really glad that you guys both share in this viewpoint because the reality is most people are struggling with overweight or obesity. And if we ignore that and we create guidelines or you guys help inform guidelines, it would be very irresponsible. So, you know, the issues of obesity and diabetes have definitely, and heart disease have definitely been there. But I would say that hasn't been, it really wasn't emphasized in the 2025, but if you look at the underpinnings with reduced carbohydrates, increased protein, you're basically touching a lot of those chronic diseases, whether it's obesity or diabetes.

1:23:47I mean, the 2025, the one that was written that we ignored, was basically all about saturated fat. I mean, there was nothing in it that really got away from saturated fat and fiber. Well, that and changing priorities with protein. Yeah. I mean, but that was driven by saturated fat. Saturated fat and fiber drove all of the other decisions.

1:24:11Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The current recommendations say that your saturated fat should be 10 % or less. Now... 10 % of calories. 10 % of calories. So if you're eating 4 ,000 calories, you can have 44 grams per day, but if you're only eating 1 ,400, you can only have 1 ,600 or 16 grams. Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And one more statement along those lines. If the dietary guidelines are not meant to, say, quote, treat disease or be a medical intervention, which they're not. Is that fair to say? they're not designed to be a medical intervention. It's just to help to inform and to be able to create a healthy dietary pattern.

1:25:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The goal from the way I understand it is that saturated fat is part of this heart healthy hypothesis. And I stand to be completely corrected that for those individuals that have an LDL above 130 milligrams per deciliter. That's about, what, 20, 24, 25 % of the population. And those that have LDL cholesterol greater than 160 milligrams per deciliter is probably, what, 5 %? Yeah, 5, 5.5. Which, if we were to round all that together, 30 % of people might have treatable cholesterol, if we're looking at LDL cholesterol. And that's kind of consistent with mortality. Heart disease's mortality is around 30%.

1:25:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Which means 70 % of the population doesn't have an issue with that, yet we're making guidelines to saturated fat to affect LDL cholesterol. And then, so that's one point, which then reduces, in many people's views, higher protein foods, which you have to eat something else. So to say this succinctly is, I want you guys to help me understand why that exists if, I don't know, 70 % of the population, that it's not going to make a difference for them. But it will inform the rest of their dietary choices. Dr. We may have different opinions about it, but basically it goes back to 1980. In the very first dietary guidelines, that 10 % number came out of thin air in a committee, and we've basically had it ever since.

1:26:45Is there a better number? I think that's probably why it didn't change this time. Is 11 % or 9 % a better number? I don't think there's any data to pick a better number. So I think that's why it didn't change. I think if you look at the big picture, though, where we get our saturated fat has changed. As we talked previously, we've changed our animal protein sources, and that changed our source of fat. We now get more than a third of our saturated fat comes from hydrogenated seed oil. Is that a problem? It's a synthetic fat. And up until 2020, those synthetic fats were filled with trans fatty acids, which everyone recognizes was a problem.

1:27:35And so when we see a lot of these surveys about health and longevity and things like that, one has to realize they were all underpinned by trans fats. So arguing that that was a good choice, I think, is a really weak argument. Why didn't it change? Why didn't it change? Again, we don't have enough evidence to remove the 10%. A lot of it, as you had said, it's confounded by the trans fats that were in the diet at a certain point in time. And so we don't really have those randomized control trials. Why didn't it change? Then I think you have to always say, how many reputations and how much money is based on keeping it?

1:28:12And I think you have to go down that rabbit hole. I would just go with, we don't, because there's too many confounders with a type of of fats that were in the diets and the lack of control within the diets that we do have in terms of the scientific evidence that we just can't make that determination yet. But there's more and more systematic reviews and that analysis coming out. And so if you read Tom Brenna's report within there, it is very clear. Which, by the way, he was on the podcast. Oh, sweet. Very cool. Shout out to Tom.

1:28:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Tom. He was hysterical. I'm sure. He was hysterical. And he was talking about that this saturated fat heart-healthy hypothesis that much of the data. It was a very interesting conversation. He was saying that the saturated fat 10 % data came from hydrogenated whale blubber in an effort to keep people alive during a world war to prevent them from starvation. He said it was never intended for it to be utilized, and people weren't thinking about 30 years later heart disease. They were concerned about survival in the moment. And what he also said, which he kind of whispered to me after, And I was like, Tom, why didn't you talk about it?

1:29:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He's like, I don't know. I thought it was too controversial. I was like, huh. He said that there were motives to keep it there and that it is clear that it's really low-quality evidence and that saturated fat is being lumped underneath hydrogenated whale blubber and it's not in the same category. Yeah. It's just that number has really very little data to back it up. I mean, if you want to make arguments about saturated fat and polyunsaturated fats and LDLs and some of the scientific relationships, you can find some pretty good data. But to translate that into a number like 10 % of calories, you know, jokingly made the suggestion that, you know, it's okay to have one person eating 45 grams and somebody else is unhealthy at 16, that makes no biochemical sense.

1:30:14You can't come up with a mechanism to make that make sense. So it's just a really bad number. If saturated fat is really toxic, then they should come up with a number. And then it becomes a testable hypothesis. If somebody says, well, 25 grams of saturated fat is going to kill you, well, that's testable. But as long as it's percentage of calories, then it's a vague number and it's not really ever testable. The only thing I would say, though is that it doesn't refute the guidelines. We don't look at it and say, well, the 10 % is still there. So we remove it or it's there. What do you do with it?

1:30:46Right. And so I think we were a little bit different that you, I think when we were looking at the report and then translating it to the evidence, and then we did some modeling, you know, I think initially we thought, well, that's going to be our sticking point. We're going to be over the 10 % sat fat when you start having

1:31:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:animal protein food, that's the 1.2 to 1.6. So modeling out the diet when you aim for it. Yeah, and so those that have, I mean, I've done a little bit of modeling in the past and a lot more now is that you have composites foods, right, for different food categories where you're, you know, if it's animal source foods, you're taking red meat, you're taking chicken, and you're putting them together and, you know, for the protein foods and the same thing for vegetables and fruits. And I was surprised when you mix and match different varieties, our saturated fat with the modeling that we did in the report was 8%.

1:31:33So I'm not supporting 10%. I'm just saying, I think people hear the 10 % and they think, well, maybe it should go away, but it's still there. So you can't have that much protein. You can't have that much protein coming from animal source foods. And I can tell you when you go back and model it, it is doable. Is it doable based on the pyramid? And that would be, no, it's a concept. So you go back to the pyramid that we have. And yes, can you have a ribeye and whole milk every eating occasion, every day? Not if you want to meet your 10 % saturated fat, which is questionable, but it's a concept. And so I think for me, it's having people understand the pyramid.

1:32:07These are foods that you can include, but you have to be mindful and it has to be flexible. And so when you do that, if you want to have more foods that have saturated fat, maybe at breakfast, then maybe you'd have less at lunch or dinner, right? So if you really like full fat Greek yogurt, maybe have leaner meat later on. And when you do that, you get 8%. So we weren't even at the 10 % with a 2 ,000 calorie diet. And so I think we hear this a lot, that it's not possible to have that. And that's what's showing on the pyramid. And one, we don't even know for sure what 10 % saturated fat should or shouldn't be there.

1:32:40Nonetheless, it is still there. But you can still model a flexible pattern as long as you're mindful of the food choices that you're making. And we both run multiple studies, our random control trials, with that kind of modeling, that net 10%. I keep thinking about the pyramid, though, and people want to micromanage what each of those pictures look like. And so, okay, that ribeye is a large picture, but right next to it's a whole turkey. I don't know that anybody... It's a chicken. Or chicken, whatever. Wow, that's a good point. I don't know that anybody has ever recommended people should sit down and have a whole chicken.

1:33:14and down at the bottom of the pyramid is a whole bunch of bananas. I don't know that anybody has ever recommended you should eat four bananas per day or at the top is a whole bunch of carrots. So to translate and over on the other side there's one almond and one walnut, I think. So those aren't designed to be serving sizes. They're designed to be pictures. And so the micromanaging that pyramid based on what you're decided you're going to be offended by is really just out of line. But it's the same thing with, if you go back and look at my plate, which has been here since, what, 2010, I believe?

1:33:49Maybe 2010, I think? Yeah, right. There weren't foods on there, right? So there were just names of, you know, vegetables and whole grains and then protein. The problem is, is then protein started to get diluted down from animal to plant. But they weren't, they were helpful, I think, to a lot of dieticians because they knew what they were doing. But to consumers, it's like, well, what types of foods am I supposed to eat, right? And so I think the pyramid is, It's kind of a good mix of here's some foods, but that doesn't mean that these are the only ones that you can pick and choose from. And not that we care, but just to be for full disclosure, we had no say, no recommendations, no suggestions, no review of the inverted pyramid.

1:34:25I think probably you and I would have a very different pyramid based on, but it comes down to preferences, right? I think everybody would have a different pyramid based on the foods that you eat versus those that don't. But if you just have the names, I think that's really the concept. And all the foods are sort of theirs, to your point, for allowing people to pick it. It's not that every one of those foods gets in every one of your meals. That's just not. The more I've looked at the pyramid, the more I like elements of it. I mean, at the top, basically, it's prioritizing protein and high-fiber foods.

1:34:57It happen to be vegetables. I think it's not other... People should note that it's not fruits and vegetables. It's vegetables and fruits, higher fiber. And if you look at the vegetables, if you look at the fruits, It's all the berries at the top, and as it goes down, it gets to grapes and bananas, lower fiber, higher carbs. So I think the pyramid actually reflects a lot of the choices that are there. And then at the bottom, you have the grains. Those are your last choice based on your calories. If you're a marathon runner burning 5 ,000 calories per day, then you probably need a lot of those carbs.

1:35:35And if you're a sedentary person who sits in an office all day, the idea of 130 might be your max. And that's how people should think about it.

1:35:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Was there ever, from your perspective, well, actually, Heather, the last guidelines were very reflective of the guidelines prior to that and then prior to that, right? When the first guidelines came out to 2025 guidelines, were there a lot of changes? You mean the advisory committee report? Yeah. So the report that was produced, so for example, this new report has prioritizing - The 420-page report from the guidelines committee? They didn't really change. So the inception of the dietary guidelines until you guys came along, it didn't change at all. I think that we're into a phase now where we need better instruction about how to utilize these new guidelines, that people need to understand that it provides a decision process, that carbohydrates and fats are really nothing but energy in the diet, and how you decide between those two depends on who you are.

1:36:46Should we talk about carbohydrates a little bit more?

1:36:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Again, the floor is yours and yours, because I have a list here of... We talked about protein quality animal. We didn't talk about diets. That might be too complicated. satiety, we touched on satiety, appetite. The dietary guidelines, again, it remains very controversial in this space.

1:37:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So, you know, making it real for people, for example. What about the proteinification? Do you ever talk to the sports, like the athletes or like the gym enthusiasts? I've never actually had that conversation about the new guidelines. We talk to physicians and dietitians right now. I haven't, I mean, I have my own gym, so I don't go out anymore. I'm assuming they're like cheerleading this there. Yeah. It's kind of like, well, finally. Yeah. So it's just, I'm just curious because if they have a problem, then maybe we're not. They don't. They're like, obviously. They're like, obviously. Yeah. That's the word, obvious.

1:37:49It's just finally.

1:37:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But what they're also seeing is then they're seeing pushback from those that are the American Medical Association just came out with a, we should move more plant-based. So it's directly opposed to the information that you guys are putting out there. And I think that that's something that I would touch on because you guys are. And that is such a, I mean, that was just sort of putting together. I mean, that's a fiber statement more than a protein statement. Do you want to talk about that? No. I mean, I don't think this is even worth bringing up, but I mean, I would say 90 % of people's issues is political.

1:38:30Yeah. That's it. There's been, and I like the visibility that has occurred, but because most of the commercial ads and the push have been political, the rest doesn't matter if you're not on that side. What about that? And so I think, and I don't think that for us, that's something we need to talk about. But that is the one that's just blaringly obvious that if you were to remove this, I mean, regardless of not, if you were on, if we had done this five years ago, I can't imagine we'd have that much pushback. But it is.

1:38:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Except for Gardner and a few of those. But it wouldn't be at the same level. I just don't think. So I agree with you because I went to the White House under the Biden administration for women. No one gave a shit. No one gave a shit. Oh, but then I was there because it took me years. But then that was, oh, my God, you're this and that. And I'm like, dude, I've been trying to do this for the last 10 years. So but we could talk about the proteinification because now what's happening is there's a lot of people hear protein and then there's a junk. There's a whole bunch of junk protein. Yeah. We should have that discussion.

1:39:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:All three of us agree that the idea of protein forward facing finally, we're just like, okay, thank goodness. But I went to go pick up some popcorn because Friday night is Friday movie night. In fact, we might be watching Elf for the 535th time. And I was really surprised to see protein in my popcorn. They had proteinificationized, I just made that word up, my popcorn, as well as almost everything else I'm seeing, including coffee, you name it. Now we've got this added protein and everything. Do you think that that is helpful or harmful or neutral? You want to go with that? Why don't we start with this?

1:40:19I just say no, and then we can, we'll say, we'll go with no, and then we'll unfold. Is it necessary? No. It is food first, always. whether you're in anything in practice is you can get your the amount of protein that's needed and other every other nutrient from whole foods. Right. So I think first and foremost, that's unless you are a very specific athlete, right, resistance trained strength athlete, and you're unable to get the amount of protein that you need because those needs are higher, that that's probably an exception. But I would say for consumers, it's just not necessary. then the question is, is can they be useful in certain circumstances, right?

1:41:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But also the protein started to interrupt you. What I'm seeing is I'm looking at the back of the label and it's protein from wheat or it's protein from, it's not, it's just. Well, most now it's coming from pee. If you look at a lot of the ones that are added, it could be soy, but I would say the majority that I'm seeing, because now that's all I do. I go through the stores. So if you guys see someone who is just, it's me, see me. And so I laugh because the joke, I think we've even said this was, I mean, I mean this not scientifically, but I'm like, okay, so we're going to make this recommendation.

1:41:36Nobody's going to follow it anyway. So it doesn't matter. So this is the first time that we make a recommendation of more protein and then everybody's following it. So it's a kind of funny concept that, you know, for 20 years, nobody even looked at the guidelines. You come out with protein and now there's protein in everything. It's like, wow, that's a big change. My take is, you know, if it looks like fairy dust, it probably isn't very useful. But isn't it misleading? Yeah, I think so. I think that, and I think hopefully we're going to see some front of package labeling things that are going to change in the next year or so.

1:42:06You know, I think that, you know, if you see popcorn with one gram or two grams, that's an irrelevant thing.

1:42:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But it says protein popcorn. Yeah. And then you should look and see. but my threshold for it being a meaningful protein is 10 grams. If it has less than 10 grams in it, you probably shouldn't think of it as a protein food. It's not really going to be beneficial. And the only reason I said it's definitely not necessary, but you can use it for certain things because we do know that there's a certain amount of protein that can be satiating. But, I mean, I spent most of my career looking at that, and I can tell you protein powders and shakes are having these things that are added to some things. you don't get the satiety effect that you do if you're sitting down to have a breakfast burrito versus a breakfast shake or adding a scoop of protein to regular yogurt or something like that.

1:43:00So there is something inherently about what we call the protein matrix, like a matrix of food that can be helpful, right? So I always think of a scoop of protein, really helpful for certain things. If you are a weightlifter or strength athlete. What about on a GLP-1 or having reduced total? It's possible, but I guess I go back to usually scoops of protein have protein, which is essential amino acids. Great. They're missing all the other nutrients. And so for even GLP-1 users, and we were doing some studies right now looking at normal and high protein in GLP-1 users and those that are coming off of GLP-1s, they need the protein foods because they provide the nutrients that they're deficient in.

1:43:36We know that there's a higher – I just read an article that said about now we have vitamin C deficiency in GLP-1s. Really? Iron deficiency because they're reducing their calories or their food so much, they're not eating a lot of those foods. And so I just go back to, now you can't get vitamin C from protein. That's not what I meant. But we have to be careful because, you know, it's finding those foods that they like to eat and they're willing to eat, but they come with that nutrient package that you just don't get with a scoop of protein. So that's my only concern that I think, and most of these are adding just those proteins.

1:44:07You're not adding the other components that go in with whole protein foods.

1:44:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It would be very difficult to do that. And there's probably even components beyond vitamins and minerals that we don't even know about. To mirror that is when we think about the phytonutrients, anthocyanins, and in other types of foods, there's the carnocyanins, whatever, I'm making it up, but the equivalent of a phytonutrient animal-based protein. Now, with that said, there are certain life stages that I would highly recommend something like that. So in teens, we know that they're deficient. In aging populations where they are really, they struggle with eating that amount of food. Deficient in essential amino acids.

1:44:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, and nutrients. But I would say, yes, both protein, but mainly essential amino acids, maybe pregnancy and lactation or menopause. So there are very specific life stages where I think they can be helpful if you're not getting it within your foods. Or anybody, I guess. I mean, I agree with those needs. This is what I've seen as a practicing physician over years is people that are on calorie restriction, even if it's medication-induced, if it's a medical challenge, if they have some kind of struggle, if they are ill, chronically ill, going through chemotherapy, or they have a taste buds, all of these things then become a challenge.

1:45:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And where I was going with this is the idea of ultra processed foods, having popcorn with your protein, the quality of the nutrients, like those essential amino acids, it's missing. The only thing I would say, for example, as a snack, if you don't truly need a snack, but you're hungry, I like a good protein chip. That's just me. So I'll have a bag of protein. Yeah, there's many of them now. You can bring me some? I mean, are you okay if I say brands on here? Yeah, of course. Quest chips, I love. What's your favorite flavor? I think it's the chili. It's very zesty and it's made out of whey protein.

1:45:59And so I take that over any day. Is it filling? Absolutely not. It's not filling? But I like the taste of it and I wanted something to eat in the afternoon and it's like 20 grams of protein. Give me other... People love practical tools. The discussion just switched from...

1:46:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, she had me a lemon chili. I had a lime chili. But I think there's an interesting distinction between somebody sprinkling one gram of protein into popcorn as fairy dust versus using protein to replace carbohydrates for satiety, for a sack. I think those are two very different things. And I think you have to kind of look, is it, was it one gram of protein or was it six, seven, eight grams of protein that you replace carbohydrates with? Those are very different answers. And I think the same thing with like the breakfast cereals. At first, my response was you don't need it. It's probably true, but there's a lot of breakfast cereals now that have, again, is seven or eight grams sufficient?

1:46:53Probably not. It's 15 to 20, and you're replacing carbohydrates that you don't really need. And most of those are also getting higher fiber. And they're getting higher fiber. So you're getting two other components of satiety. You're getting protein and fiber. And I wouldn't want anyone coming away thinking that Heather and I in any way are arguing against fiber in the diet. Well, I mean, you threw this in here, but we just want to emphasize again, We recommended more beans, peas, and lentils than anybody ever. Anybody ever. So, you know. In the history of ever. It is true. In the history, yeah.

1:47:24Because they're valuable in the diet. And so, you know, we're definitely protein-centric in terms of how you should think about your diet. But within that, there's a lot of range to what you can make your decision. And then, you know, what does that mean to the rest of the diet? And along those lines, we kind of touch on this with do you need them, but they can be helpful. I would say, too, the caution is typically with protein in things usually comes added sugar, right? And we just know there's just very little – there's no value to added sugar unless it's – I would say – I said that before and then I forgot.

1:47:57In schools, it goes down to would you rather have kids not drink anything or have chocolate milk? And we know that you have chocolate milk and there's added sugars in there. So there are certain times, I would say for most consumers, just be mindful of protein that typically comes along with added sugars and like a lot of the bars or some of those other products.

1:48:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Okay, if you, and this is where we switch, take off your scientific, keep it on halfway, like half had it. If you were going to, so you don't, this is unanimous that you don't agree to the fairy dust sprinkle of the high protein cupcake that has five grams of protein. Cupcake would get to five, but go ahead. One or two. There's Pop-Tarts that have 10 or Light Legacy. No. Well, Legacy is a good... So my COO... You see what I do with my spare time. You hit a sweet spot here. So my COO came to the house and brought Pop-Tarts. And I thought she was eating a Pop-Tart. I was ready to remove her from my home.

1:49:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And then she shared with me. And again, we have no relationship to this company. legacy pop-tarts and she was like gee there it's either 10 or 15 grams but it's whey protein it's whey protein they're delicious all right well we gotta we gotta uh see if we can get some legacy we will offer some legacy uh bruce i'm gonna call bruce do i recommend them i think but this is important because if you had to choose again we there are people have to eat we do live in a very convenient for a word world, if it gets to 10 grams of whey protein in a Pop-Tart, are you okay with that? Are you happy with that?

1:49:40I mean, if the choice is Captain Crunch versus 10-gram Pop-Tart with 10 grams of whey protein, I'll pick that.

1:49:47Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When I think about eating, and we put this together in the Forever Strong Playbook, we brought the plate back. We did. It was great. The recommendation is obviously eat the meals, but if you're not going to eat the meals and that you're going to have a snack, the snack should be balanced. It was higher protein. When you say higher protein, it's 200 calories or less because we're not eating a meal. We're just trying to deal with hunger. Snack foods, are there high-protein snack foods that you like and would go to? Well, for me, hands down, it's Greek yogurt with nuts or granola. And you are not looking for a...

1:50:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Plain Greek yogurt. Let me rephrase. Extra sugar. But you're not looking for an amino acid threshold. You are looking for something right to - It's a satiety issue. It's not a protein issue. It's a satiety issue. Well, we have to be able to translate the science to what we're going to do. Well, and nutrients, right? Again, Greek yogurt provides a lot of other nutrients that can be helpful in the diet. Okay. I love that. I like things like - Chocolate chip cookies. A deli neat with cheese, something we did like - I heard that is a carcinogen. Ham and cheese roll-ups. I heard that processed meats.

1:51:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Did I use the word processed? Well, deli meat, okay. Well, technically it would be initial processing, right? You think that slicing ham makes it processed? No, better not disagree. Okay, you don't have to have processed. I mean, you could choose ones with nitrates or something in it, but you can easily choose not to have it. This is true. Turkey. It just depends on what you're defining as processed, right? I mean, hamburger is not processed just because it's ground. But I think all ham has sodium, if I remember. So I think by default it uses sodium. Here's what I'm saying. You could have a turkey breast that is sliced that would be considered deliating.

1:51:39Sure. He said ham. Okay. But also cheese would be... You didn't ask me if I had healthy snacks. You just asked me what I use. So a slice of dajumine with cheese. You don't need to be healthy.

1:51:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:With this fair... What about something like, so you said protein chips. Quest is your favorite. I'm going to buy those. I'm going to try it at least. What about something like edamame? Would that be a useful? Sure. Not for me, but yeah. Oh, I love them. I like them. Yeah, we like those. Only if they're highly salted. Protein bars. Do you care where the source of protein comes from if it's for satiety? So you're asking personal questions, not recommendation questions, right? I care about, you guys already contributed enough to the scientific world, but I think people also want to know what you do.

1:52:29So I have bare belts every day.

1:52:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Okay. Why? 20 grams of whey protein. Yeah. No added sugars. Fat. Appropriate 200 calories. Great snack. Do I feel full on them? No. Yeah. But it's additional protein, additional essential amino acids for me. And it helps curb some things because I'm going to have something else. I'm going to have something because I just want something to eat. And so a lot of times it's the fact that mentally I know I'm eating 20 grams of protein. So I think I personally feel better about myself. And they taste good. It's like, I mean, I don't even really like sweets, but bars. So that's what I look for. I look for the protein added sugar ratio.

1:53:04Okay. And the calories too. How high in sugar are you willing to go? Or five, usually just five grams because there's bars now that have that. And I also look for ones that don't have a lot of sugar alcohols. But fair. But there's not that many out there. There are not. I don't use a lot of bars, but I sometimes have them when I travel. But I don't pay much attention to brands. But there's, I think, one called One now that is pretty good, and it's whey protein.

1:53:32Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, I'm going to, not that anyone asked me, but I'm going to show you. Yeah, I was going to say, what is your favorite bar? Well, I don't do a ton of bars just because I don't like the texture. What I will do is I'll do, it makes me very unpopular, especially on the airplane, but it's okay. I will bring a hard-boiled egg, and then I'll have a pack of essential amino acids, which I'll give you one. I use a hard-boiled egg, not too hard-boiled, so it's kind of in the middle, and then a pack of body health, perfect amino, and then I'll drink extra water. You've had David Church on, right? I have not.

1:54:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Oh, you need to get him. He eats your breakfast. Okay. It's the same thing. All right. I think it's verbatim. Okay. And I just find that this is a great breakfast. It's also a great snack. And, you know, it's interesting because you don't want to feel full or you want to feel full because otherwise you feel hungry, you said. I don't actually, meaning you know that you're going to have something else so that you feel more full. I don't like feeling full. And I think a lot of people, you know, I just feel better. I like feeling full at night. Well, it depends on how you define that, right? So I can put my ingested behavior hat on.

1:54:42So full doesn't mean stuffed. Full just means you are satisfied.

1:54:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I like feeling a little bit hungry. I like feeling a little bit hungry. I think most people would be better off if that was the goal. Or just listening. I would say number one is listening to your cues, period. I mean, most people do overeat, and that means that meal - Why are you pointing at me? Yeah. I was a satiety thing. Most people do overeat. They don't go to the Qs or satiety. And they probably are overeating at least 30 % on the calories when they feel that way. Our biggest concern, as we know, protein has a health halo in whatever foods. Not red meat, I guess. If you remove that or animal source foods, I mean, that's questionable.

1:55:28But like packaged foods, it has that health halo. And so people will generally purchase those, I would suspect, overeat because they think it's healthy. Same thing with fiber. but fiber never tasted as good. Usually protein doesn't have that weird flavor unless it is, but even pea protein now is a lot better than it used to be. But I would say now it's, bars are tricky, but a lot of things added to other foods, it just tastes good. So I would imagine people are going to take them, eat them, and not be mindful of their calorie goals and what's needed.

1:55:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, doctors, Dr. Lehman, nice to see you again. The most frequent requested guest and guest. Dr. Heather Leidy, thank you both for being on the show. I'm going to link your Twitter. I am not going to link your Twitter because you don't have a Twitter, but maybe your lab or website if people are interested to learn more about you guys. And truly. A pleasure as always. We better say that. I know. I have to. I will call you incessantly. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

1:56:36Thank you.