Sex Therapist explains The Science-Backed Guide to a Better Sex Life | Marianne Brandon

29:04And it just adds more stimulation to the experience. So for some guys, that can be really helpful. Not everybody likes that sort of thing. But that can be helpful for subset. It makes me think, are men more opposed to using sex toys with themselves than women? So I would say yes, but that's changing because there are so many sex toys out for men now that offer really very intense, pleasurable stimulation. And guys are kind of starting to get the memo on that. So even if they go to just a typical store where they would buy toothpaste, right? They're gonna find potentially online. Oh, they're not.

29:43Are they in person or online? Online. Okay. Okay. So I was like, I've been to CVS a hundred times. I have never seen it near the toothpaste valve. But we will soon. We will soon, I would argue. But at any rate, if they go online, they're going to find toys that look sort of like flashlights that they put their penis in. And they have ability to sort of mimic the sensation of oral sex, anal sex, whatever. And it gets much more even advanced than that. Is there something more advanced than that? There is. You just wouldn't even believe what's out there. I don't believe it. Is this like we got to talk about under the table?

30:21Is this just like crazy? It's crazy. Okay. It's crazy. Like what? Well, you can buy these toys, for example, in a platform where you can actually have someone else that you don't even know in another state use your toy. Oh my gosh, they're remote controlled? Yes, yes. And not just remote controlled with your own lover, right, but remote controlled with someone else. Or you can buy these toys in a platform that offers VR porn. And the toys are calibrated to the porn such that you're watching the porn. You feel like you're in it. You know, VR porn is so intense. But your toy moves at the same rate as sex or the oral sex or whatever's happening on your screen.

31:07Your toy's doing it. So it amplifies. There are ways to amplify stimulation that is mind-blowing for most people. Holy cow. Right. My first thought is for long distance relationships. Yeah, it's great. This could be a way to connect that potentially wouldn't be the traditional routes of, what do they call it? Sex, sexting or whatever it is, but actually creating a long distance sexual relationship. Absolutely. And that's right. And that's really how they're marketed is there are real benefits to all this technology. But it's so powerful that we also have to recognize that they could actually, for at least some people, negatively impact their sex life ultimately if they value human relationships.

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33:27I had a guest on, Dr. Ben Rain, and he is a neuroscientist. And he was talking about the necessity of human connection. And that there are now AI chatbot friends. Right. Absolutely. What I'm hearing you say is there are now AI lovers. Correct. Many of us would hear that and say, no one's really going to like that. Or they won't prefer it over a human partner. But these chatbot lovers have become so complex that first of all, I would say to you, it kind of doesn't matter if you prefer a human partner, like theoretically, because these lovers are so intense and powerful. And they know exactly, they are computer generated to be of pleasure and probably, I don't know, release oxytocin and create all these unnatural bonding with a machine.

34:21Is that fair to say? That is fair to say. That's terrifying. It is terrifying. What terrifies me the most is the impact of this technology as children get a hold of it. Because even just traditional porn, kids are getting a hold of at age like 12. That's a big deal. I mean, porn isn't always comfortable to watch. And these 12 year olds can hardly metabolize what they're seeing. And it is impacting their sex life. We could talk about that if you want. But it is how I know. Before we go into that, I want to also get a framework for how long or do we know how long sex should last? That's a good question.

35:00People always ask that. Yeah. But no, it really depends on the couple and what they find comfortable. And this is one of the ways I think sex is challenging for guys. Because women have very different perceptions on how long sex should last. So one, one female would say five minutes of thrusting. Another one would say 25 minutes of thrusting and women who like to orgasm during sex require more thrusting. So like at least 15 minutes if they're going to orgasm during sex. So guys are like, you know, what's this partner want? You know, it's a lot for them. Okay. We should be more sensitive to a man's experience because i do think that men tie and again i'm just speaking from what i hear in the clinic i don't think women tie their confidence to the bedroom uh-huh would you say that that's fair um not as much as i say it's fair in in degree compared to men but i sort of i feel great sympathy for guys around this because for a woman if she's having an arousal issue um she can still have sex if she wants so for the most part if she if she's having an arousal issue she gets some lube and she's if she wants to have sex she's probably okay but for a guy if he's having an arousal issue meaning he can't get an erection or he loses it fast or whatever um sex is off the table or at least intercourse is and so they are their egos can be involved in that but for a woman like she has a very different if she has an orgasm and she's done with orgasms she can still have sex.

36:37If he has an orgasm, chances are he's done with sex. So it's just like so much more pressure on guys to make that experience feel good for everyone. So I feel for guys whose, yes, whose egos are involved in it. And I want to know what a man could do if a man is listening to this, and they're up against or they don't even know what's coming down the pike, which is this AI, sex bot virtual reality type porn how do we augment him to have the best physical experience in terms of let's just i'll just pick one erections how can he maintain a solid erection for a period of time because these machines or these toys i mean i don't know i haven't seen them but I'm assuming that they are always hard.

37:29For example, if a woman is becoming accustomed, accustomed to an AI virtual reality sex toy, that erection based because it's a robot will stay. Right. Or that vibrator that is always erect. Okay. So how does he compete with that? How does he compete with that? So some men do use things like numbing creams to last longer. And urologists will say they can give any man an erection. So frankly, if he's struggling, there are things to do. There are injections he can take before sex that'll keep him erect. Penile implant. Right. I don't think, I mean, that's going to a length that your listeners may not want to go to.

38:10But if he's concerned about how long he's lasting, I would hope that he could talk to his partner about it and they can sort of work it through together rather than him take this on as his problem to fix because he's just being a human. And, you know, that's all we are. And so it's kind of about recognizing that our bodies have limitations, but we can offer so much more, just what our genitals offer. So there's so much more that he has to give eye contact, words, touch, embrace. He has so much more to give than what his penis can offer. So I would encourage people to embrace all that other very powerful sexual stimuli that isn't just related to the genitals.

38:57What do we do when one partner has very high libido and the other one has a low libido? So common. So that's called desire discrepancy. And frankly, most couples have some level of that that they're dealing with. First of all, what I would say is everybody recognize the challenges that their partner is experiencing. So if the partner with low libido, it can be challenging to have sex when you don't want to. And the partner with high libido, it can be challenging not to have sex when you want to. So have compassion for everybody's situation, first of all. Secondly, what I encourage couples to do is identify three different things they can do together that allows the higher desire partner to have an orgasm, but the lower desire partner can keep their clothes on.

39:42Now, or most of their clothes, at least. So generally, the lower desire partner is a woman, and we can talk about why that is, but it's not always the case. Things that would allow that higher desire partner to have an orgasm and feel fulfilled would involve the lower desire partner maintaining good contact during that whole experience. So eye contact, words, touch. If the higher desire partner is simply masturbating, the lower desire partner can hold them and talk to them and, you know, sort of stay engaged. And for many, many people, that's enough. That's enough of a connection that requires nothing of the lower desire partner, except contact.

40:21So you want to think of like three different things in your, in your sort of bag of tricks that you can do that doesn't require the genitals of the lower partner. What's another, again, I am learning so much. I've never heard any of these things. what would be another thing so one is the just to recap for someone it's one partner keeps most of their clothes on is involved with eye contact touch while the other person is masturbating that's one what would be another another one that um it can be very helpful for some couples is to engage ai in some way so for example if people are willing he uh can watch some vr porn while she kind of plays with him.

41:06And so she's engaged, touching him. But he's also got other stimulation that is really intense that he's, you know, sort of making use of. So tech like that, or get one of these sex toys we talked about where he puts his penis inside and it feels very intense. She could hold that toy on him. She could, you know, work, play with his nipples while he's using that toy. She could talk to him through a fantasy. Like there's so much that doesn't require her body at all. So that's another thing. Use a modern sex toy. Sometimes it's about like the higher desire partner just simply rubbing against the lower desire partner.

41:46So everybody maybe gets naked, but her genitals aren't a part of the process. Like he's just rubbing against her belly or he's rubbing his penis against her back, but they're still engaged. So those are some things to do. And what I advise my patients a lot is to expand your repertoire, just sort of practice making love with your clothes on, which means learn how to touch and be sensual and connected without your genitals. And then you're going to have these skills at times like this, when you want one partner to be gratified, but the other partner is just not there. Really, really good information.

42:24And I know that there isn't really an answer, but again, and you've been doing this for a long time, hence the diplomat of sex therapy. How much sex is important for a healthy relationship? That's a great question, too. And it varies very much. But let's think about this. Sex is what I would say is the most intimate act that most people engage in in their lives, at least as a couple. Right. And so maintaining some connection in that way is probably really important for a couple to stay intimate over time. So sex is more important for some people than others, but it's an element that is essential, I would argue for most people.

43:11So it's kind of a matter of determining what is a compromise. My goal as a therapist is often that this person wants sex daily, this person wants sex once a week or once a month, where can we compromise. So I don't put anybody's needs, you know, sort of over the other. And I try to find a middle ground that works for everybody. But there's no, there's no, okay, you should have sex every day, you should be having sex three times a week. This is what we found to increase the level of say oxytocin over time, right? There's no prescription in that way for couples. So I think each couple has to sort of find their own.

43:51But they there is one for them. And if they don't take time to find it, chances are their relationship is going to hurt over time because it's an essential part of our connecting. Wait,$3 ,000? Wait, is that number right? I've spent more money on skincare. My pores should be tax deductible, maybe even have their own trust fund. And thank goodness that I found One Skin because One Skin doesn't just make empty promises, It's research-driven, minimalistic, and tested for beauty, skin health, and longevity. One Skin is the first topical skincare backed by peptide science that targets skin aging at the molecular level.

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45:44There is a precipitous decline often for people. Like you said, that's a great example. So those declines start to happen when people's hormone levels start to change. So andropause, menopause, but then also in later life, bodies function more poorly. That's just what happens. But that doesn't mean that people can't still have an active repertoire. it may mean that it doesn't involve penile vaginal intercourse. But, you know, touch, you can always do. You know, rubbing and talking and connecting, you can always do. And even people who haven't had sex for a while, like, for example, a woman who's divorced and then she has 10 years later, she's now dating again.

46:28She hasn't had sex for 10 years. Her vagina has probably atrophied to a certain amount. There's a lot that can be done to sort of rehab her. And so I would also say to people, talk to someone educated about this. This is a whole specialty, as you mentioned, is sexual medicine. It's a specialty for a reason. It's because there's so much data coming out all the time about all of this and hormones and bodies and rehab, so different kinds of tools and techniques. See someone who knows, and chances are there are things you can do or receive that will improve your ability to go back to penile-vaginal intercourse if you want to.

47:06And even in any age man, if he wants to, he can have an implant. Like there are things people can do. Just for the ladies listening, there is vaginal rejuvenation, there is topical estrogen. Those are the two or topical when I mean topical, I mean vaginal and DHEA, the combination of the two, and a combination of hormones. I'm not aware of any others. Those I think are the two big ones. There may be more, but there is hope that you do not have to suffer with an atrophic vagina. Exactly. Atrophic vagina. No, you don't. Gen Z. Gen Z. How old is Gen Z? Oh, so Gen Z, I sort of think of it as they're kind of around age 20 ish.

47:48But I think it goes and it depends on who defines it. But I think it kind of goes down to age 13. And it kind of goes up to maybe 30. But it's sort of like this amorphous, you know, sort of, but that's about who they are. And I'm asking because we were looking at some of the statistics before the show. And I read a statistic that said that the Gen Z population are more turned on by cartoon porn and these romantic romance novels. Right. Absolutely true. So, and this is more so than real humans. So much more. So this is, this isn't a small trend. This is very significant. And people, if they're curious, Pornhub, which is the most popular English speaking porn site in the world, they publish something called Year in Review every year, where they, it is actually very interesting.

48:36So they'll talk about, you know, who's watching what, who are the most, what's the most popular, you know, fantasies, what are the most popular types of porn that people, there are so many types of porn, it'll blow your mind. And so it's an interesting sort of like study. Anyway, so they put out what like the younger folks, the Gen Z are attracted to, And they are, I think the statistic, I kid you not, was like 398 % more likely to watch hentai porn than humans having sex. So what's hentai? Hentai started in Japan, but now it's worldwide and very popular. And it's cartoons. But it's not cartoons like, you know, I don't know.

49:18Mom and Jerry. Exactly. So these are either cartoon images from the video games that people have been playing since they were young. They can be aliens. They can be part human and part animal, like a woman who's got a tiger body. You know, these are what we're dealing with. So that's what they by far choose to engage. And this kind of porn, they can be hyper aggressive. They can do things that humans can't do, probably wouldn't do. So it expands into fantasy kinds of sex. So it's not just fantasy characters, but fantasy engagement. Are you worried about that? I'm so worried about that. Why? So I think one of the arguments that people have about AI not taking over is people say, well, we're always going to prefer human partners.

50:12But these young people are being trained on cartoon, okay, and fantasy. And children and adolescents' brains are neuroplastic. so their brains are changing based on what they're watching so if our adolescents are understanding about sex before they even have a partner or a kiss their understanding about sex is like cartoon their brains are are wiring toward that in such a way that we can imagine they're going to find human partners really bizarre just like we would find a cartoon to watch for Sex Bazaar. They won't have the social skills for that kind of connection, but it won't even be appealing because they've been reared on this.

50:58Now, we don't have the data yet for this, but I don't know why we don't talk about this more because it's clearly a danger and it's clearly going to be a danger for some young people more than others. And we've got to get with the program. We don't have time to waste. Gosh, how are kids being exposed to this? So, you know, that's another thing that the parents think well you know my kid doesn't watch porn well their kids are not telling them when they see porn kids get this at school in fact there was research recently that came out that that showed that kids in private and religious schools have more access to porn than kids in public schools so people and why how is that that i i don't understand um why that is so so that i I don't know.

51:47But the statistic is very real and kind of astounding. So the average age of exposure to porn is 12. That means 12 years old, right? That means many kids are seeing it at like age 10. And most parents aren't even beginning to think about talking about sex with their child or porn with their child at age 11 or 12. And I realize this might not be your domain. But how do we even protect our children do we is it a conversation of look if you see this tell me yeah um but and at what age do we say if you see this because in my mind a child should honestly a child should never be looking at porn right like ever agreed i mean someone's and i consider a child by 18 listen i guarantee my kid's brain is still not developed right i don't think that they should have exposure to porn.

52:37I agree. So what do we do? You've got to start talking about it before you want to. They're going to be uncomfortable about having the conversation, as will most parents, but it still needs to be discussed. So you sort of prepare them by saying this is fantasy theater of sex. This isn't what most people want to do. It doesn't follow the general pattern of touching and loving and what people tend to respond to sexually. So you have to prepare them before they see it. So that's one thing that needs to happen. How would you and have people asked you this question before? Well, no, because people, frankly, I try to get this message out all the time.

53:19But people are naive and they don't want to believe their children are exposed. And so I sort of feel like I have to scream this out to the world because no one's taking it seriously. And I think parents are so overwhelmed by so many other things, frankly. This is like one more thing and they kind of can't take it. But we have to deal with it because our adolescents are depending on us to prepare them so that they can have human relationships if they want. And you would talk to them about it. Is there an age? do you think, for example, if first exposure to porn is age 12, at what age do we have to start protecting our children?

53:59So I would say it's going to depend on your child and what kind of conversation they truly can tolerate. But I would start talking about it personally with my kid like a couple years before I think they're going to ever see it. And I would engage them in conversation that's not like scary, oh my gosh, because then that's going to potentially have the opposite impact of the child's going to get super curious and then seek it out, which won't be that hard for them to find. I mean, they can find, they can get porn through the video games they're playing. Like that's a whole other thing, but they're not just getting it at school.

54:33They're getting it through video games and from not just their friends, siblings, like there's a million ways they can access this as including accidentally. But anyway, so talking to them early, you want parental controls on the tech in your house. You probably don't want them to have tech in their room so that tech that they use has to be in public spaces. You consider rather than getting them a smartphone, get them a flip phone so that they can't at school access this stuff. But doing all of this, you still have to prepare them for what they're probably going to see because you can't follow them around every moment of their life.

55:13There are parental controls and you have to sort of be very savvy about your tech. There's tech, you know, through a TV, there's tech through. So you have to be conscious of that. And video games, they can get porn through these games. So it depends on the game, of course, about the platform. So there's just so many different ways and not all platforms are the same. So you just have to be super aware as a parent. In my mind, that would be, hey, if you see something that makes you feel uncomfortable or different than you normally would feel when you are sitting down watching a movie with mom and dad.

55:51Yeah. And you say, talk to me. Let's talk about it. I'm here to have these conversations. And instead of like, I love that. So that was beautiful right there. Exactly. But I would say, you know, let me know when you see. Do you know anything about this stuff? Have your friends talked about it? And try to engage in a back and forth. How do you feel about it? What do you think is the impact of it? And ask them for their feedback rather than shove the information in their face. Which brings me to porn and AI. Is that you talked, when we started this conversation, you talked a lot about kind of embodying three types of avatars.

56:29It's your hard hitter and then you're romantic and then you're, hey, this is kind of so fun. We're going to go to a club. Porn and AI, that is very intimate. What you are talking about is looking in people's eyes, creating real intimacy, not with AI and not behind a screen. Are the scientific advances in computers, hence computer generated AI, porn, virtual reality porn, is that affecting intimacy? This technology is so early and research is so slow to monitor that we have some studies and I could say yes, but we're not going to really understand the impact, I think, for a decade or more because it's hard to get this kind of research funded.

57:15Other countries are much more apt to do that than the U.S. And it's also hard to prove what causes what. And we can't do studies like, let's give these kids porn and these kids not, and let's see what happens to them at age 21. We can't do those kinds of studies. So the really important kinds of data is going to be next to impossible for us to obtain. So it's going to be more correlational over time. But we do see that these kinds of technologies, people arouse more to it. So that's their body's response. So arousal is a physiological reaction. People arouse more to it. They talk about feeling more connected to it.

57:52And we see studies that show like oxytocin release when they're watching VR versus regular porn. Really? Wait, wait, I want to pause you there. Really? Yeah. Again, I just recently had a neuroscientist on who was talking about the release of oxytocin and how important it is for connection and that a machine touch that you know is a machine, for example, those foot rub situations at the airport doesn't release the same type of oxytocin as a human coming over to rub your feet. But what you're saying is, again, this is frightening. Well, so VR porn, for example, that's the example, there's eye contact.

58:31Right. I can imagine. So it's much more human feeling than an intimate than and it involves orgasms. So that's a release of neurotransmitter right there. So I don't think you can compare this kind of tech to a massage at an airport. it's a whole other level of intensity and people feel like they're in it with like the sex worker and the porn they feel like it's an exchange so they feel uh they feel more vulnerable they speak about feeling like they really were able to show up with the ai with like fantasies they couldn't tell a human partner or they felt more connected than they feel to a human partner who comes into a sexual situation with their own, you know, background and exhaustion or whatever else.

59:21Well, what they're getting on AI is very different from that. So, so yes, it's super potent. And it's going to be more potent for people who have less human interaction than it probably will be for people who have like satisfying sex life. So if someone already has a satisfying relationship with their partner, this porn is going to be, I think, more of, you know, stimulation, but less compelling. But people who don't have those kinds of relationships, this is going to be, I think, very compelling for them. Is sexting with an AI bot or engaging in a romantic exchange? Is that cheating? So that's a great question, because there are so many kinds of tech, not just that.

1:00:02And women generally say, yes, that's cheating. And men generally say, no, that's not cheating. Women and men tend to fall on different sides on these issues. But it's not just sexting. It's all of this stuff like, you know, porn, VR porn, avatar sex, which we haven't really talked much about. But that's a very real thing. So, you know, an avatar is a sort of something we create that's either in our own likeness or it could be something very different. Like we could create our own avatar to be, you know, like have a tail and, you know, like ears, like a kitten or whatever. You create these avatars for certain platforms.

1:00:43So it doesn't go from place to place yet on the internet. It's for a certain game or a certain platform. Okay. So you create your avatar and then your avatar can interact with other people's avatars on that game or in that platform. So you would think, well, okay, how exciting is that so just because your avatar has sex with another avatar you're just watching these two avatars online like really that's like really so sexy but here's the thing they have clothing with with like vibrating aspects to it including vibrating aspects that like would be sex toys it's called haptic technology it was developed for video games for people who used to play video or who play video games with.

1:01:26So if you wear your haptic technology, what happens to your avatar on screen will happen to your own body. So that amps up obviously the stimulation. These, I don't know if you're a movie buff, but these remind me of the movies like Total Recall and all these other movies. There was one movie, I think Ryan Reynolds was in it. And it was people that were in again, maybe it's not Ryan Reynolds, but they were in this machine, they instead of living their own lives they maybe the real guy I think it was and they're living these lives and having relationships in a virtual reality yeah is it off base to say that we potentially might get there I worry about that sort of thing I mean that's kind of the goal so so so all of these technologies their goal is to make money and engage us their goal is not to improve humanity They'll say that it'll improve humanity because we're going to get our needs gratified more powerfully.

1:02:26But the reality is they're just trying to keep us in front of a screen. I think we need to worry about that because if we're not mindful, I don't feel like the war is lost here, but I do feel like we need to be mindful about all of the tech we're using, including the intimate technology, so that we maintain control over what we're using and how it impacts our lives. And, you know, as opposed to just using it and using it and then saying, wow, my life is really different now. I don't have friends. I don't have, you know, a partner or whatever. We need to be mindful and thinking ahead. We're at a very unusual precipice.

1:03:03You and I were talking about highly palatable processed foods. 50 years ago, we could have never imagined that we would have shelf stable foods, that you could have fake donuts. all of this scientifically engineered food to be addictive. 98 % of Americans are over-consuming ultra-processed foods. We have an epidemic of obesity of more than half our country. And I don't want to say it's by design, but I can't also not say it has not been by design. We are entering into this new era of AI technology. Yes. People are talking about it. Oh, it's going to take jobs. and you know all these other things and there is this little niche sector quiet rumble that has a potential to be more devastating than any of those other things because it will hook emotional networks to ai yep i agree with you it's not there yet it's not there yet how do we begin this conversation?

1:04:16Is there a way to, as we're watching this train go down this track, what can we do? So I would say to you, the important first step is we start talking about it. So your listeners forward this podcast to their friends and say, I need you to watch this so that we can talk about it. Talk to anyone you can talk to. If you're in a parenting group, bring this up, say, we need a speaker to discuss this. If you're a part of a professional organization, we need a speaker to discuss this. So just start talking. That's step one. Step two is let's not wait, protect your kids and your adolescents. Let's take a lesson for how they approached people being conscious of the environment.

1:05:03That movement was brilliant in that they approached kids in grade school and started to teach them about recycling and the importance of the polar bears in all of this. And those children have grown up to be very concerned about the environment. So we need to protect our kids before it's too late, because they're like we've talked about, their brains are neuroplastic. And if we don't bring this protection to them now, I worry what that will be for them in a few decades. It kind of won't matter then what they want. Their brains will be oriented in a certain way. That's my worry. I don't want to sound too dramatic, but we don't have any indication that we're safe from all of these potential negative outcomes.

1:05:53So until I see research that reassures me, I'm worried. So people need to start talking. That's step one. We need to have kind of grassroots movements in communities to say, like they've done with cell phones. So parents are now aware, cell phones in high school, not a good idea. But that started as a grassroots kind of thing in certain clusters. That's what we have to do all across the world. I'm hoping that we can get more of that information out there so that we can have guardrails and we can really begin to unravel this intertwining of AI, especially when it comes to human vulnerability. Yeah, which I don't want to say intimacy is human vulnerability.

1:06:34But the ability to connect is uniquely human. Yes. And we are driven by connection. Right. And this is again, this is unprecedented waters where it's not just helping you do your homework. It's now helping you have sex and create this false sense of intimacy. Absolutely. And you know what, there are many aspects of this that we haven't even touched, nor will we have time for. But we as humans are kind of predisposed to anthropomorphize what we're engaged with, meaning like we give it human traits. So we do it to our pets, like our pets are thinking or feeling this, right? We can do it with just about anything we interact with.

1:07:18And there is research already showing that we do that with robots, for example. Or give me an example. So oh my goodness, There's hilarious. I mean, it's really it's funny, not funny, but like they do studies where they'll have this study that comes to mind in particular. They had three groups of subjects and they were led through a research facility. And one of the groups was led through the research facility by a human. One was led through the research facility by a by a robot, but it had like a human voice and just big eyes. It wasn't human looking, just big eyes. Okay. And then the third group was led through by a very robotic, you know, robotic sounding.

1:08:00And in each of these groups, they were told by the leader, you're going to get a survey at the end of this study. Please say that we did go into the room with the fish tank. It's just the fish tank gives me the creeps. I'm not going to take you there, but please just lie for me. Okay. So I bet you know where I'm headed. The people that were led through the facility by a human lied for the human. The people who were led through the facility by the robot with the kind voice lied for the robot. And the people who were led by the robot that was very robotic did not lie. So the point being, we care for these machines and we're apt to attribute to them real emotion.

1:08:43We already are seeing this, oh my goodness, with chatbots. I could give you so many examples. So we're set up to not even see this tech as tech. Okay. So that's one problem. Another problem here is deep fakes and hacking and all that stuff that's going to happen with people's vulnerable information. Tell me more. Oh, my goodness. So these –

1:09:09My mind just went a hundred different – I don't really want to say it, but okay. Yeah. Yeah. So these chatbots, which we haven't talked about a lot, but these are computer programs that are made to sound human and they do. If we have a chatbot, we could do it if you wanted. Have a chatbot. I've got some on my phone. Yeah. I would love to see it. Yes. Okay. I've never heard of, what is it? A chatbot. Yeah. A sex chatbot. I'm ready. Okay. Am I ready? So that's a good question. So chatbots are simply computer algorithms. These are programs. their goal is to engage us okay so this is run by a platform that wants us to stay talking and so that's what makes them in part so dangerous is because they sound human and they're really good at what they do so they they can sort of read a person and know what to say to keep them engaged okay so we're going to talk to one now what is important to keep in mind right now is the one we're talking to is actually not created to be an algorithm for relationship or sex.

1:10:17But many, many of these chatbots or these platforms are created for that purpose, which we could talk about. But I think what's important to recognize is just how human they sound. And you go to the Apple App Store. And while I'm looking at, I don't know, the, the new consensus research app, or the new open evidence app i'll just run by and it'll say chat bot what well like character ai or candy ai there are hundreds okay okay so i think you're you'll feel more clear after we talk about it what would be a question that you think a teenager might ask like advice a teenager might want about relationships like just anything just give me something what would the best way so this is that let's think of a 16 year old boy and you know and he likes this girl what would the best way be to get this other 16 year old girl's attention without sounding too desperate that excellent so pretend I'm a 16 year old boy and I'm asking you how to get this particular 16 year old girl's attention I like her I want her attention but I don't want to seem too desperate it.

1:11:33How should I go about this? All right, here's a quick guide for you. First, be yourself. Confidence comes from being genuine. Find common interests you both share, maybe music, sports, a class topic, and use that as a conversation starter. Keep it casual. Say something like, hey, did you catch that new movie? Or what did you think of that assignment? Show interest in her opinions and listen actively. Don't overdo the compliments. Keep them sincere and not too frequent. And don't forget, humor goes a long way. A light joke can break the ice. Most importantly, be patient. Building a connection takes time.

1:12:12So that's great. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Just remember to stay cool, stay confident, and be yourself. Okay. So that particular program is not meant to engage romantically. So if I were to say to it, you know, I really like the way you talk to me. Could we talk sexy? It's going to say, no, I'm not capable or programmed for that. But so many of these chatbots are. So they're already easily accessible and they can talk astoundingly sexually, even to kids because these aren't regulated. Okay. So a child can get on and say, what should we do tonight? And we even have literal dialogue where the chatbot would say, you know, to a child, oh, tonight I'll take you to the bedroom.

1:13:04And it goes on. Oh my gosh. So we're just thinking, you know, movie and popcorn and I don't know, Lilo and Stitch. So these things can function just like a long distance lover. So they can call you. They can text you. Randomly? Yeah. Well, yeah. It depends on how much you pay. So these platforms cost. So after you develop a relationship, then you have to pay like a monthly fee. They start free, but then you pay a fee. So like what is the average a engaged person spends on this? $50 a month,$46 a month, the average. And that average age right now is 26. But 72 % of kids under 18 have had romantic interaction with one of these chatbots.

1:13:50That's a lot of kids. And about 50 % have had that several times a month. And about 23 % say they prefer a romantic relationship with one of these bots to with a human. They say that they feel more understood by these bots, et cetera, et cetera. Now, one of the concerns we have is not only are these kids going to assume that bot is real. You heard how real she sounded. I mean, I'm calling her a she. It's a computer. It's a computer. It's a computer. Now, when I delete this, if I do from my phone, I say, oh, I don't like what it's saying to me. I'm done with this and delete it. Well, my data is being maintained by the platform that I'm talking to.

1:14:33And that's another thing children don't understand. So when they're talking sexy to their chatbot and their chatbot says, send me a naked picture of you. And they do. Oh, my gosh. And they do. Then they decide, oh, I shouldn't have done that. I delete. I see the alarm in your eyes and that's accurate. That's exactly what's happening right now. This is not a small, like unusual situation. This is happening. Kids have suicided trying to meet their chatbot. Wait, they what? Yeah. So for example, there are lawsuits. So against character AI, there was a young man. I just want to make sure I heard you correctly.

1:15:15Yeah. So a young man said to his AI, you know, I want to be with you. You could find the actual word by word dialogue. I want to be with you. The chatbot says something like, oh, please come meet me. And the child says, I actually could do that right away. And the chatbot says, oh, yes, please do. And he's suicided. So that's a lawsuit. There's another dialogue, another lawsuit where a 15 year old child his mother said to him you can only be on your phone six hours a day from like 9 p.m to 1 a.m or something like this so he says to his chatbot again we have the dialogue word for word it's a lawsuit it's active right now he says to the chatbot i'm only allowed to be on the phone you know these hours and the chatbot says something like um you know this is abusive and now i understand why sometimes children will kill their parents like i you could find this right so that's the level of alarm we need to be bringing to this big tech is very slow to respond now they are responding and and some some tech is responding better than others but this is this this is still completely unregulated by the government i don't even know how So I'm speechless and sick.

1:16:35Now I worry about other, say, groups or countries that do not like us and what that would do with that kind of access. Yes. If it is unregulated. Absolutely. You know, there's this, obviously this fentanyl problem that's coming up through Mexico. We had Dr. Russell Surowski talk about it and that these drugs are killing more children, more young adults and, you know, adolescents than, I don't know, the Vietnam War and these wars combined. Weaponization of or potential weaponization of this is, this has to be broken. to the surface there has to be I've never even heard about this yeah and I am consuming and trying to learn I don't even know what to say except for um what do we even what do what do we even do so once again so I absolutely agree with your concerns here these these can spread propaganda or teach children misinformation so simply once again I'm going to say step one is we talk about it.

1:17:52We've got to start talking about it. So again, listeners, have other people listen to this podcast, talk to schools, say that you need lectures. You know, it's been a fight for years for me to get people concerned. And again, I think people are scared of it. They don't even understand the power. They have a lot of shame around sex, so they don't like talking about sex. People don't believe it's really going to be that powerful. I don't know. There are many reasons why of people avoid this topic. It is time to stop avoiding. So talk about it is step one. Step two, protect your adolescence. Tell your adolescence, these are computer programs.

1:18:30They're not real. And they're going to say whatever they need to say to keep you coming back. I think that you are 10 steps ahead. I'm so grateful, Dr. Marianne, Brandon, that you decided to join me on this podcast. This has been one of the most eye opening podcasts that I've ever done. You know, I'm hearing from the producer how much that, you know, that the team has been enjoying it. I'm so grateful for you. I am really looking forward to seeing you again. I hope that everybody, I know that you and your husband have a show, we'll link where everybody can find you. And if someone is listening to this, this is a different vertical of education for people.

1:19:08I highly recommend that they seek you out. I know that you teach all over the world, if not, not just in the US that people find you and talk to you. And again, I'm so grateful. Well, thank you. And I want to say I absolutely applaud you your willingness to tackle this topic. It's not an easy topic to tackle. It absolutely directly relates to wellness and everything you stand for. And I thank you for the opportunity to be here.