Why Protein Isn’t Always Enough: Anabolic Resistance, Obesity, and Protein Efficiency | Dr. Nick Burd

29:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And you are very interested in food matrix. And there's a, again, when we look at the landscape of protein, it's, we're not giving tagged, I mean, people aren't eating tagged amino acids or. No, well, you don't need to. It's just a tool that we have to, to understand how metabolically, how they're responding to nutrition and exercise. Now that That study was done in younger folks, the one you're referencing with the pea protein. The study I was really keen on was the one that's only been published in abstract form. So in that study, our only objective was trying to enhance the post-prandial release of dietary amino acids to pea protein, which is a plant-based protein.

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30:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So whether you've been active, resistance training your whole life, or you're just getting started, Timeline can help. They have a beautiful product line with a low sugar, vegan, non-GMO and gluten free new gummy, which is amazing. They also have MitoPure berry or ginger powder. You can mix it into your daily smoothies. If there is one product that I strongly suggest that you take, it is MitoPure. And Timeline is offering our community 20 % off your first order of MitoPure. Go to TimelineNutrition.com slash DrLion and use the code DrLion to get 10 % off your order. that's t-i-m-e-l-i-n-e nutrition.com slash dr lion what are you really excited about doing i mean i have a a paper here or this is a it's not a paper it's um it's a proposal yeah oh yeah that oh something i sent over yeah yeah you sent it over yeah so we got we got and it's fascinating and i'm just curious i don't want to say anything about it i'm i would love to hear from you is there something that you are really excited about uh you know i get excited about i love science like i'm if you look at my career you probably notice like i'm all over the place in terms you know i'll study dialysis patients i'll study um we just got a nice grant uh through the ada to study some uh protein requirements for type 2 diabetics um this obesity related stuff i'm i'm really interested in.

32:35I'm interested in the food matrix stuff. You know, I always say if we're not having fun, what's the point? You're right. I get excited when I see my students get excited. I love it all. I mean, you tell me, I just like the pursuit of the research question. And, um, I do have a tendency to get bored easily. So I like my, you know, each student has a little different concept and each one of them, there's something exciting about them all. Like I said, the biggest enjoyment I have is seeing the excitement of of them right so the fact whenever whatever research study we're studying just to see the students how pumped out pumped up they are about it I like I mean I'm a big science nerd I like methodological questions where I'm doing some stuff with Dan Moore that more methodological just trying to understand the tool that kind of stuff excites me but you know the clinical work is interesting the performance nutrition work is is is interesting I'm trying to understand some of this endurance exercise, protein requirements stuff.

33:33I don't think we got a good handle on those aspects. Certainly the obesity-related questions you were asking are really important. How can we overcome this obesity, anabolic resistance? I think consistency with resistance exercise is going to be key.

33:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you think they need a different diet? So, for example, you're going to be studying type 2 diabetes, diabetes, diabetes with protein. Do you think the diet or the training recommendations need to be different? I don't know. I mean, again, I mean, we don't have it. I don't have enough data. This is where, like I said, we got to do the studies. And then we got to use more sophisticated analysis to understand it, right? Because there's going to be inherently variable responders. That's just, you know, we're not easy people to understand humans. I mean, you do teach on performance. Is there anything that, again, you're not really on social media at all.

34:25No.

34:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:From feedback from your students, do you find that there's something that is vastly different from an academic perspective versus what someone thinks, whether it's the amount of protein endurance athlete needs or, yeah, anything like that that would be helpful for the audience? the biggest thing i i have to talk about is you know what they're really surprised about is the protein requirements between a weightlifter versus an endurance athlete right this whole concept of um you know optimal versus maximal these kind of concepts right and like i said there's no problem with eating protein in excess if that's what you want to do do it for a healthy kidney i can handle it right but my point is you're creating it's a that's a maximal way to eat right if you want to eat maximally go for it i don't care it really impacts me very little right um if you want to eat optimally here's some things to think about right because a maximum response is how i view it is just shovel in as much food protein as you want make you know just eliminate anything about requirement right because you just overshot it and let your body eliminate the waste, right?

35:44So just get high oxidative rates, right? That's fine. You can do that. That's great. But guess what? Like I said, your gut now is going to take more of it. You're going to have higher splegmine extraction. You're going to have enhancement in your proteolytic enzymes. It's not a problem per se, but, you know, when you go to eat your next meal, let's say, not most of us still have zero issue with finding food protein in the U.S., but let's say you've been eating maximally, So, you know, 30, 40 grams of food protein per meal. Now you've only encountered 15, right? It's going to be different metabolically than somebody who's been eating 15 to 20 grams of food protein as part of their normal pattern and eating more optimally because, you know, I see it all the time, 1.6 grams per kg per day, right?

36:30That's the recommendation for weightlifters I see online all the time. Maybe upwards to 2.2 grams of protein per kg per day. but have you ever looked at that confidence interval that 95 confidence interval why not recommend why you why are you going that way why why not go this way as opposed to 1.2 yeah or why not eat at the lower end of that confidence interval why why i don't know why why why is the translation by default eat that way because you could equally eat this way that's what that data is telling me they just looked at the breaking point and it came at 1.6 right so So, you know, I know why they're doing it because it's easy translation.

37:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you worry about, so if the average American eats 300 grams of carbs a day, do you worry about where, you know, I think that the majority of the food we're over-consuming is processed. Yeah, of course, yeah. Ultra-processed. But that's more education, you know what I mean? But you think educating people to eat more food proteins is the right education? I think we have a lot of work to do. Yeah, I don't think that's eating protein in excess. I don't think is the education's standpoint. Understanding that, you know, different foods are, you know, in terms of the protein quality, how they're interacting, it's all education.

37:49I mean, just pretending like, you know, people can't learn is crazy. Oh, the reason I do that just for ease of translation. Well, that's fine. But why not educate them then? That's our point as a – but just running around saying you need this much food protein in excess. I'm not saying it's going to hurt them, but that's just a crazy recommendation. I just told you with a weightlifter, you're just making a system completely inefficient. If you want to make that recommendation, perhaps an endurance athlete. How much exercise?

38:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, right. If I think about muscle health, the biggest driver is likely training, right? Some kind of stimulus. This is definitely, whether it's resistance or endurance, with endurance, how should they structure their nutrition? Yeah. I mean, you know, the biggest variable, you know, just to put this in it, you know, everybody, I come on nutrition podcasts sometimes. You know, they want nutrition. You know, the biggest thing I can say is be consistent with your exercise, right? Find something you do. Find something that makes you smile, right? And that's the first thing. I think that's the most important thing we can do as practitioners is try to identify activities.

39:02We, you know, something we can make somebody be consistent with. Right. And the nutrition is important. Don't get me wrong, but that that's a really big piece. Now, you know, a lot of times, you know, we're talking to, you know, when I'm talking to athletes and whatnot, that's not that's not the problem. Because they're rather being coached to as part of their training program. They have to be pretty active. So when we're thinking about an endurance athlete, right, a little different scenario than a weightlifter. Um, they're not fundamentally anabolic, they're really catabolic, right? So, you know, what happens when an endurance athlete goes for a run, right?

39:38They're running, you know, for what have you, whatever, say 60 minutes, right? Pretty intense, 70 % VO2 peak, what have you. Um, you know, a lot of times we think protein as an oxidative fuel is non-existent, right? That's why we use all these non-protein RQs and everything.

39:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So you saw upstairs in my drawer. Now, but protein, that's a pretty overarching word, right? And even Don's big on this, right? I think I've even heard him say. He's the one who talked about that. Yeah, Don has this funny, cool saying that he's like, you know, saying protein requirements like saying a vitamin requirement, right? You eat one, you have them all, right? It's the same with, you know, if I eat vitamin D, I'm good. but it's not real, right? Same with protein, right? You really got to zoom in and look at different amino acids. And so, you know, some of the interesting ones with endurance exercise and from an amino acid and metabolism standpoint, right?

40:37You got alanine, glutamine, leucine. So if we just focus on that, right? So when an endurance athlete is running, right? They might not getting a lot of protein oxidation, but they're getting leucine oxidation, right? We're pulling those carbon skeletons out to make acetylcholine to run them through the Krebs cycle.

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41:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's not really about this cosmetic quick fix. We talk all about health and wellness, but we typically talk about it from the inside. And this is something that you can put on topically to affect the health of your skin. So go to oneskin.co, that's O-N-E-S-K-I-N.co, and use the code Dr. Lion for 15 % off. Right. And then what do they do? They stop exercising, right? So they have all this oxidative amino acid waste that's induced by exercise. Now they need to eat food protein in the post-exercise state. So they need to not only, that food protein has to do two jobs. It got to replace that leucine oxidative loss.

42:31And you also need to provide enough substrate to support that remodeling response. So our work has shown that if we take an endurance athlete, have them run for an hour, look at leucine net balance, right? Which oxidation is going to play a factor in that. So guess what happens? Endurance athlete runs, they get into a negative leucine balance, right? So catabolic. We feed them food. We couldn't recover that leucine net balance because that food is fighting two battles. It has to replace that leucine oxidative loss. And like I said, provide enough substrate. So now we're trying to think about what strategies can we use for an endurance athlete because they also got to be concerned about carbohydrate right so what strategies can we do to help this endurance athlete recover they're losing that balance right so that's some of the stuff we're working on now that's some of that stuff's exciting i guess you're asking me about yeah the exciting stuff how can we manipulate um protein timing how can we manipulate protein source to help recover that a weightlifter is it's just kind of easy right a weightlifter can do they can just work out the point you know they should work out you know make sure they're getting a lot of type 2 fiber activation bulk fiber recruitment make sure all your muscles sensitive to substrate amino acid substrate eat something you know i always say after weightlifting you know what's the best um kind of protein to eat well the kind you put in

43:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:your mouth right whatever you want to put in your mouth it's going to work an endurance athlete's a little more it's a little more interesting in terms of from a from a meal manipulation standpoint in my opinion we see differences in muscle protein synthesis because do they separate the type fibers out or is it it just uh luke van loon's done some of that it's a lot of work i remember i was like when i was a postdoc i went over there and i was a gun ho right i was like luke i want to do some fiber type pacific work and he was just like no you don't and then you were right he just was like no you don't you don't want to do that um no we don't i mean i i you know i'm not the individual synthesis rates and stuff i think scientifically and for basic sciences that's great but i i i like our our because it depends what you're it depends on the research question that's how deep you need to go now is there a particular impairment you know i mean that it's just but how does that impact a recommendation that, you know, it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish, what tools you're going to use.

45:04So I did want to learn it in my defense. I was like, yeah, I want to do some individual synthesis rates and fiber-type specific synthesis rates.

45:11Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, it lasted very short. No, he literally wouldn't let me. He was like, no, you don't. I was like. Okay. Do you think that the RDA is a worthy number? No, I mean, I, you know, I like, like I said, Professor Wayne Campbell's approach. um he his argument is that and i agree with him 100 like i said he's he's also one of the guys i admire in the field um we got to stop beating up on the protein rda right why it's sort of you know it does what it's supposed to do it's supposed to prevent a deficiency it's very good at doing that you know we put a lot of pressure on it in my opinion like i always view the protein rda as a starting point, right?

45:56When they developed it, there was not a lot of information on it. It does what it's supposed to do. It does prevent a protein deficiency, but it wasn't supposed to, in my opinion, ever account for, what about a weightlifter? What about, you know, well, it doesn't. It doesn't supposed to account for older adults or perhaps clinically compromised people. What's it made for? RDA, healthy adults, right? so a healthy adult what's it going to do going to prevent a protein deficiency it's was never made to capsule everything an older adult an obese adult anybody who's weightlifting anybody's doing an endurance exercise right so i think it does a good job what i was supposed to do um my other issue is that instead of beating up on the rda experimentally or verbally i guess we need to test experimentally right instead we always and especially in the exercise physiology field we always like to test everything in excess right and i you know i think you know one of the common numbers is that 1.6 grams per kg per day and one of the things i always like to say you know or they like to test this way right they want to keep going in excess but i'm like well why not test the other the other end and i think that's important um who has really tested the protein rda from a you know from a healthy weightlifting perspective but who's tested it well well don did but he went

47:28Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:to 1.6 so don uh for years did some of those first studies and you know i think they're really well done and he looked at the rda 0.8 grams yeah then he looked at doubling the rda which again is what you said a bit higher, 1.6 grams and all of the, and they were isocaloric. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, that's some old work. I know what you're saying. I mean, it's just, yeah, I guess my only point is that the protein RDA is a starting point. My other thing is it's hard to find somebody who's eating the protein RDA. In my hands, they're always eating 1.1 to 1.2. My biggest objective is using weightlifting to enhance that protein efficiency.

48:07My other argument is that perhaps if you're doing other modes of exercise, that number might vary a little bit. For example, an endurance athlete, I think.

48:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do they need more or less? I think they need more food protein than a weightlifter in terms of somebody who's habitually doing endurance exercise. But we also got to account for what's one aspect of an endurance athlete. They usually have high caloric intakes, right? So it's not that number they need to be concerned about. So again, I think it's the timing after that initial. So if you just got back from a big run, you know, I always hear this concept of anabolic window, the prolonged nature of it. A weightlifter doesn't need to really worry about some particular anabolic window. But an endurance athlete is probably a little more important for them.

48:59Not only from a carbohydrate standpoint, we know that's important. But I would argue from a protein intake standpoint, too, to help them recover.

49:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's fascinating because we are definitely not hearing about that online. I think that you're hearing that the anabolic window no longer matters unless potentially you're doing maybe exhaustive exercise or you are lower on the total protein intake. But it never. I mean, it was interesting concept. It never mattered. I mean, the work we've done with Stu in terms of that anabolic window, we've showed it for years that it's been prolonged. I've never really understood where that concept even derived from. I think it was just, I don't know. I mean, if you wanted to eat something after your weightlifting bout, go for it again.

49:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Are there any other groups? So endurance, how long do you think the anabolic window is? You're going to make me put a number on it? No, no. I don't know. I mean, with the glycogen resynthesis, I mean, it is short. I mean, usually you want to eat within the one to two hour window, right? That's what I would have guessed. in terms of this leucine balance and it it i don't i don't know but i would argue that we need to be able to recover those oxidative losses so the other concern is make sure that in that post-exercise meal you know this is probably well you know i i advocate a lot for you know food first approaches but food first doesn't mean food only and sometimes people you know let's say it's like no that's it's crazy you're right my only point we're using a food first approach is that everybody likes to go to supplements, right?

50:30That's just where they want to go to that way. But it's like, well, first, you know, think about this, but for an endurance athlete, you know, it's not, like I said, for them, I think we do, they do need to use something that's rapidly, we need to get those amino acids in circulation quick. Isolated food proteins are going to be the best at it, right? And so, you know, obviously, when you co-ingest carbohydrate with even isolated food source, you're going to reduce that acute amplitude of change. So you're going to, in terms of the leucine profile and amino acid profile. So I always, I think, you know, we need to test this experimentally.

51:07I think having a rapid source of amino acids, carbohydrate blend immediately after that endurance exercise bout will help. And then return to that food if you can, depending on your training, you know, mode of training, then that's where you can return back to that food first approach. But I think that timing of that initial meal is real important for them. The overall amount, they're probably fine on. That's my point because endurance athletes eat plenty of food protein on a daily basis. But where I think they might not be understanding is that that post-exercise window for them is probably important to help them recover, losing that balance and support that adaptation.

51:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you think that meal has to be? Is it just based on their overall calories? Yeah, I mean, we haven't done. Yeah, I mean, what we need to understand now, we're do some manipulation of sources to see if, you know, to see if, you know, again, I usually, you know, it's always interesting. I mean, whey always got supported as being the best food protein. But when you look at some of E. Boree's work, he's shown that casein, right, for a weightlifter most likely is probably, not that he studied weightlifting, but arguably is probably really, you know, do the prolonged nature of some slowly releasing food protein.

52:29Whole foods will do the same. It's probably better to support protein balance throughout a prolonged recovery period, right? But for some reason, the weightlifters really like weigh. But really they –

52:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The concentrate really – Yeah, something that's more prolonged release would probably be better. But for an endurance athlete, I think the weigh or something really fast is going to be really important for them. So physical structure, we can manipulate the food matrix by – Luke has done brilliant work in that area. Cooking food, right? Mincing up the food, right? Where I've been more interested is trying to take advantage of the nutrient nutrient interactions within food to potentiate the use of the dietary amino acids, right? Trying to optimize a food, right? So trying to prevent, I think I talked about earlier that, you know, you just eat isolated food protein.

53:18You can use whey as an example, right? It's not that interesting because it's just amino acids, right? So what's it do? It goes boom in terms of its postprandial amino acid spike, right? That big spike, you're going to get a lot of amino acids in quite quickly, but you're also going to get a big signal for oxidation, right? Food is kind of cool because it's more prolonged, right? So you're not getting that big leucine oxidative spike in the beginning of the postprandial period within that first two hours. But some of our work has also shown that we can potentiate the use of the amino acids within a meal.

53:55And we showed this by eating whole eggs versus egg whites, right? So eating whole eggs potentiated the anabolic response more so than eating an iso-natrogenous amount of egg white, right? Which was interesting.

54:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I thought that was fascinating. Well, I remember, not to throw Luke Van Loon under the bus, he was like, because this was when I got to Illinois, we were doing some carbohydrate co-ingestion stuff with him. He's like, you already know it's not going to make a difference, right? Or we did some fat co-ingestion. But the cool stuff with that was what we're doing, we were taking isolated fat and isolated casein. Because one of my big missions over with Luke was trying to make casein more anabolic, right? So we were adding, right, we were trying to do different co-ingestion strategies. And one of the strategies was, hey, what happens when we add lipids to casein?

54:44Can we potentiate the anabolic response? And we couldn't, right? Right. So it was interesting when we ate a whole egg, we actually were able to potentiate it.

54:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you think it's because it's not based on the macronutrients? It's based on, say, the the other additional compounds in there? Yeah. So, yeah, that's the million dollar question. Right. You always say in that whole egg study, what's in that egg? If I knew that, then I could make a super egg. Isn't there like full not folist, not folistatine? But there's something that they, someone sent it to me. It was a compound in the egg that was supposed to be very anabolic. Yeah, I mean, we tried to understand it. We, you know, we tried. We couldn't identify something. And we followed that up with a salmon study where we fed, after weightlifting young adults, 20 grams.

55:41So I literally, it was funny. I had a salmon flew in because I wanted a big piece of salmon, right? And so we butchered it up, and then we sent that piece of salmon. So all the participants had the same salmon, right? So we sent that salmon away to get analyzed, and then we figured out all the cool stuff in salmon. And then what we did was we re-engineered that salmon in an isolated beverage. So we had salmon versus isolated nutrients.

56:11Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Fascinating. And then, you know, I think I was underpowered, but we saw an effect size. It was trending that way that salmon potentiated the anabolic response more than eating the same macronutrients in free form. That's incredible. Right. Yeah. So I was like, well, it's probably something with this lipid dense food matrix. And this is more recent work I'm trying to understand. So this was in abstract form. This stuff is under review right now. So one of the things I was interested in was a lipid-rich meat matrix, right? So that's an interesting point in that, you know, when I was thinking about that, right, an egg and salmon, that was sort of really untouched, really.

56:56We didn't process it at all. I mean, it comes, right, ready to eat directly, right? But when we're thinking about even a dairy matrix or even a meat matrix, especially when it's ground, right, what do they do? They sort of, they ground up the meat and then they add in fat trimmings to try to make it more or less, you know, lipid rich or lean. But I was interested, okay, when we take a lipid dense food matrix or, yeah, lipid dense and protein dense food matrix in the form of ground meat, is that going to help the post-exercise anabolic response right versus a lean source of meat because our other work suggested that a lipid dense food matrix is really important to help potentiate a weight lifters myofibrillin protein synthetic response what we showed was that uh actually the lipid rich so that 80 percent meat ground meat so that's common right and there's 80 and then in terms of the 80-20 blend, if you will, that actually impaired the post-exercise muscle response compared to the lean source of meat.

58:08So iso-entrogenous, right? So in this case, eating a lipid-dense food matrix made up of ground meat immediately after the exercise bout impaired the anabolic response versus a lean matrix, which is an exact contrast to what we showed with the eggs and salmon. Oh, yeah.

58:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So, but the same amount. Yeah. Everything was isonetrogenous, right? So there's something with that lipid dense food matrix in the form of a ground meat. And again, I think it's because we played around with that matrix, right? It's no longer, right? We manipulated that. Not, I mean, that's a ground meat matrix, right? In terms of its physical, I mean, that's how it comes. So interesting. It is interesting, but. Do you think it's, wait, I have to think about this. is this do you think it's because of the the actual grinding or do you think that it's because it was because that exists essentially in nature right if you well an egg and the salmon i mean we directly that was like i said unprocessed the meat was heavily processed right so luke has shown that um like i said mincing meat um processing yeah it is and it usually helps digestion yeah That's right.

59:18And Lucas showed that comparing minced meat versus a ground steak, right? So this comparison was an 80-20 blend of ground meat versus a lean piece of ground meat. Okay. So iso-nitrogenous and then a carbohydrate control. But the, so this was post-exercise and sort of goes in the face of what I just said, what I said earlier that after weightlifting, the kind of protein you eat, you know, the best kind of protein you eat is the kind you put in your mouth. But in this case, we saw it blunted the response, okay? And so this was showing me that, again, because sometimes people want to argue that, you know, I've had this before in the review process.

1:00:00Well, you already showed a lipid-dense food matrix works. But I was like, that's crazy. I mean, you've got to test different food matrices to truly understand it, right? And here's an example where a lipid-dense food matrix actually blunted the post-exercise anabolic response, right? And it's because, like I said, I think it depends on the extent of processing that's occurring. I think in this case, in one of the mechanisms behind this, when we look at the, unlike the salmon or the egg, this whole leucine trigger hypothesis, right? The salmon or the egg leucine trigger hypothesis didn't matter at all, right?

1:00:40Obviously, with the isolated food sources, you're going to get a bigger leucine spike. but yet we saw a bigger anabolic response in the the egg and the salmon conditions but in this case when we do the correlations between um the c max so the peak leucine concentrations in relation to the anabolic response there's a strong strong correlation right so the leucine trigger hypothesis mattered for this ground pork situation doesn't matter for so it depends on the food is my point So there's always this question of, I always get asked, how significant is the leucine trigger hypothesis? It depends. It depends on the food.

1:01:19It depends on who you are. It depends probably on how much muscle mass you got. So it depends. That's extraordinary.

1:01:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We've never really talked about it in that kind of detail. It is fascinating. Do you have a hypothesis as to what it could be or why? I do, but maybe we'll save that for another podcast. Whoa, the cliffhanger. I can't give you all my tips and tricks. That is so fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. No, I thought it was interesting. I thought, well, because I'm always advocating. I've been around talking about the food matrix. And this was funny. In this case, with the ground pork matrix, I was wrong, right? And my students, I don't know if I mentioned it here on this podcast, but I have some students who are, you know, I'm pretty easygoing.

1:02:08So they just tell me what they feel. the other day they were like nick you've been wrong on your last three hypotheses and i'm just like yeah but it makes it fun right yeah i mean when you're um well one of the one of the things i was wrong about was that some of the vegan uh stuff because originally i thought an animal-based meal was going to be better on the anabolic response than a vegan-based meals right but in my defense i did design that study that was recently published in 2017 it just didn't get published till recently so sort of the environment changed a little bit from here or there but um yeah so i mean that's that's something you know i always think about and i wish there was these clean on and off switches but there's really not right um these precision nutrition notions especially with performance nutrition you can give these overarching sort of recommendations but it really depends.

1:03:02And that's sort of some of the concepts you were making. You know, as a practitioner, it's hard, right? Because each situation is going to be a little different recommendation. I think you just, it's, yeah, it's cool. We're getting more information on it. We'll figure it out.

1:03:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, I'll be on standby as you continue to get the kinetics of all the food matrices. Yeah, there you go. And I'll be here for a while. Okay, yeah. But really, it really is extraordinary. And I think that your work, I'm really excited. I know that you're interested in a lot of the performance. I am fascinated to know over time, if you ever look at this, but the food matrix within OB skeletal muscle. Yeah, actually, you'll like this. Actually, yeah, we got, we just completed that study. We're writing that paper up now. So we, to your point, can we use the food matrix as a clinical tool to help overcome anabolic resistance?

1:03:51So take advantage, because, so I didn't really mention it, because it's sort of a byproduct, of the, in terms of the anabolic resistance or all the stuff we're talking about, some of the factors mechanistically, ultimately those are contributing to inflammation, right, chronic low-grade inflammation. So how can we manipulate a food matrix to take advantage or try to help modulate some of those mechanisms and help correct anabolic resistance? Yeah, so I didn't even mention that work. Yeah, we're, hopefully my students at home finishing up that manuscript now. So we did address that question recently.

1:04:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Is that a cliffhanger? Better be another cliffhanger. I'm dying to know. I'm dying to know how we use certain foods to overcome that. It depends. Well, Dr. Nick Bird, thank you so much for coming on. Happy to be here. It's been fun. It's really eye-opening. And I think that you challenge a lot of scientific thinking and you challenge yourself. And I think it's really noble. Okay. I appreciate that. Yeah. Like I said, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to everyone. It's always fun. If this episode made you rethink what you thought you knew about obesity and protein, good. Because building muscle isn't about following trends.

1:05:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's about understanding your body's real needs and how they change with time, stress, and training. Whether you're optimizing for strength, body composition, longevity, or recovery, Dr. Bird's work shows that details matter. Timing, quality, distribution, vegan, non-vegan, and yes, even the way you pair your foods. If someone you love is doing all the things quote right and still not making progress, send them this episode. It might be the insight they've been missing. Thank you for being here. See you next time.

1:05:53We'll see you next time.