Why Strength Beats Cardio After 50: Muscle, Longevity & Bone Density - Lisa Smith-Batchen

26:41Was there something, and I don't think anyone's going to think it's weird or woo-woo because you're not the only person that has experienced that, I think, connection to that spiritual side.

26:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And that's exactly why it drives people to do this type of thing, to put oneself. And there's probably not that many moments that we can find to put, you know, to push a limit. So you said, for example, you're not really entering the pain cave if you're doing a marathon. I mean, I don't know because I'm not for myself because, you know, I haven't done that. But I would I would say that when you're there and you say it opens kind of this spiritual connection. Do you think it's because everything else has to be so silent or is there is there a reason that it's that position that one finds themselves in?

27:39Boy, that's a great question. Again, I think that for myself personally, it's because I yearn for it. I'm looking for it and I'm seeking it. And I think for many people, whether you're seeking it or not, it appears. It appears when you're exhausted, you're sleep deprived, and you're, you know, in a place of being very vulnerable, that it shows up whether you want it to or not. And I think a lot of that is why people go back. I know it's part of why I go back, because I cannot wait to experience that.

28:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's such an interesting mindset. And I just, I wonder, is part of that a genetic capacity to be able to experience pain and discomfort and find something positive or just be open to the connections versus the other way, which is pain and more pain and this sucks and I'm ready to quit. And then, of course, there are many people that quit. Yeah, for sure. Can what you were talking about be trained in an individual? I believe it can be taught. It can be taught, but you have to be willing. You have to be willing to want to go there, like teaching somebody how to meditate. It's you become still. You become still with movement.

29:11You become in a meditative state. for myself it's like where all the worries of the world are gone or where you write your book you know because you've you're this meditative state of mind and I think that you can explain it to people your experience and I hear so many other people's experience at the same time but I think where we can be taught because we're all students I can explain it to my students and they can look out for it. And then they can come back and share their experience with me.

29:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:What are some of the biggest lessons that you have taken forward in your life? I've taken forward that when we are in pain, when we do want to quit or stop something, that you take a time out, take a time out and go back to your why, go back to your purpose. Like I believe that purpose and passion and passion and purpose all bring us to our why. Why do I want to do this? And I ask my students that all the time. Why do you want to run the Badwater 135? Why do you want to run whatever it might be? Because I think when you have your why, it helps your passion and your purpose move forward. Have you heard whys where you're like, no, that's not going to...

30:44Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I have, absolutely. Can you give me an example? A reason why? Well, because you did it. You know, you did it. Well, just because I've done it doesn't mean that you should do it. You know, you need to figure out why you want to do it. That has nothing to do with me. That your why is all about you. finding your sense of purpose with that passion. Which you did. You ran all through 50 states. It was called Run Hope Through America. Did that push you? Absolutely. Was that easier because you were running for someone else and something else? It's always easier for me personally when I'm doing it for something greater than myself because it brings me back to my why.

31:34My why is to use my gifts and talents, like you do, to help other people. And that it isn't all about me. And that I feel really good about what I'm doing. And the time I'm spending to do it, knowing I'm helping other people. And for me, that's love. That's just love of life and my why.

31:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You were what I would consider obviously an early adopter. In the 90s, again, first of all, ultra wasn't a thing. And also women weren't really running this. Was there something that drew you to it where you said, okay, I'm going to do this because this is what I need to do to come out on the other side? Meaning, you hear Goggins talk about how he was working through so much. And I know that your friends, he was working through something or perhaps trying to solve something. Absolutely. I think there's such a similar trait there. I definitely got into the world of endurance. I was running away.

32:51I would say I was running away from childhood issues or things that had happened. We all have pasts in our lives, and I used running to cope. It was my coping mechanism. And then I actually found out that I was good at it, you know, good for then. Back then, I was winning races all the time. I'd run one on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and I'd win them, but it never made me happy. Winning never made me happy. That wasn't what I was really yearning for. What made me happy was when I met my good friend, Sister Mary Beth Lloyd, who said, what are you running from? And I said, that's a good question that I never really looked at.

33:35And she goes, why don't you help me? And I said, well, how am I going to help you? And she was the mission director for, and she still is a mission director who lives, she lives in Rome and she's 75 and she still runs. Well, she's the one who started all of the water projects, homes for children in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Brazil, India. So my helping her meant raising money, helping to raise money, which I did and we did. And that brought my why into such passion and purpose?

34:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The idea that it wasn't about winning, I didn't even consider that because most people are entering, I mean, that's probably why they call it a race. Yeah. I'm sure there's some Latin definition for race, but people go for this competitive spirit. I'm guessing, again, I'm only speaking from what I've seen other patients experience and what I've seen people orient themselves to, but the idea that winning didn't make you happy, I think is unusual. I think it's unusual too. I mean, I wouldn't say it didn't make me happy. It wasn't fulfilling. Okay. It was really like, you know, I remember when the first marathon I did, I qualified for Boston marathon.

35:01And as I'm running across the finish line, people are yelling, you're going to Boston. You're going to Boston. And I was like, what's a Boston? The same thing as I said, like, what's Badwater? I had no idea about Boston Marathon, but then I found myself in the Boston Marathon. You know, I was, it was, I don't know. It was humbling to realize that I had a gift. I had a gift and I was told by somebody else, you have a gift, my friend, sister, Mary Beth Lloyd. Why don't you use these gifts to help other people? That's what made me so happy and ecstatic to see a clean water well get built, to see children eating food who were starving to death.

35:49Like that brings me joy and brought me happy. And it still does. And that's, you know, I try to get the athletes I coach to think outside of the box of your why. Like you can use this to help other people. And it doesn't have to be running. It can be if you play the piano or if you, whatever your gifts and talents are, you can use them. That is what drives us as a team.

36:17Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's a group effort. I mean, frankly, I love, this is my favorite part of the job is sitting down with people like you that do have so many gifts and are just so humble because there is a plethora to learn. I learn every single time. And I think that as you're talking about your experience, which the way that I view it, it actually wasn't about you. You didn't think whether you were male or female, you didn't think, well, I'm going in to win it. You went in to think, what do I learn from this? And then subsequently, how do I give back? What is what I'm doing contributing? And that is extraordinary and meaningful.

37:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And again, you're still running. You're 65. You're still running. That gift, that ability to run, do you think that that gift is a mental gift or a physical gift? Both. Very equal. I think it's awesome. And I also think that because you're such an early adopter, you find that other things are important from a physical perspective. So I've met many of your friends, your female friends, and there are more mature women closer to your age. And you've watched these women really focus on cardio. And you've said, ladies, listen, if you want to do what you're doing till you're nine, I think that the oldest person that you train is what, 90?

37:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:She just turned 94 this week. 94. And I've heard you say and teach your students that they have to lift weights and they have to do resistance training. And I'm sure that that has evolved as you've been in the sport. And I think part of probably that evolution has come from your own experience. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's been a huge part of my life. I have three older brothers. I watch them with football and hockey and lifting weights. It's been something that I've done probably my whole life. It's something that I promote and preach. I feel like being, I would rather be strong than fast. I would rather, being strong Strong helps me be able to go 100 miles.

38:40It's not running that helps me run 100 miles. It's being strong. I'm huge into cross training. Being strong is what you would choose over being fast.

38:52Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Absolutely. Because being strong helps you run fast. Yes. And just helps you run as opposed to the idea of running simply helps you run. Right. It's not the running that helps me run. it's the being strong that helps me run. Thank you to one of the new sponsors of the show. If you are someone who is intentional about what you put in your body and how you use it, this is something I've been experimenting with in a very specific and particular way. It's called Lucy, and I use the two milligram nicotine gum. For me, it's not something I use passively like I'm chewing bubble gum. I use it as a tool at specific times when I want to stay focused and locked in.

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41:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Lyon for 20 % off your first order. Also, Lucy has a 30 day return policy. That's lucy.co and the code for 20 % off is Dr. Lyon. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified. Now, the warning is this product contains nicotine And nicotine is an addictive chemical. Was there a moment where you had just an aha moment? Because again, probably you've been exposed to training, like you said, resistance training your whole life. But in the running space, people are running. They're not lifting weights because everything that I've heard over the years has been like, well, that's going to slow you down.

41:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:If you have too much muscle, it's going to slow you down. Obviously, things are evolving now. But when you started coaching people, did you get a ton of pushback, especially from the women? Both. Both? Oh, yeah. Men and women. Okay. With lifting weights. Yeah. I mean, being thin, you know, I'll do push-ups or I'll do pull-ups and I'll do some upper body weights, but I never want my legs tired. You know, and I'd be like, no, you have to do wall sits and squats and lunges in order to help your running. You know, the longevity of running, the longevity meaning 60, 70, 80. You have to start when you're young or by the time you are my age, it's hard to catch up.

42:37You know, your bone density, you like the growth of it. You know, I try to get my daughters who are in their 20s. They both are strong. They both lift weights because I have. They've watched, you know, and they've learned. And I think that it's been tough to get both men and women, believe it or not. It's surprising.

43:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:What are some of the myths that you heard or reasons as to why? So I heard you say that those that were running specific didn't want to put on masks because they didn't want their legs to feel fatigued. Correct. But I know that you coach a lot of people outside of endurance, but also just coach them. what what are some of the myths that you hear the reasons why they're going to get hurt you know the weights are too heavy they'll do very light weights high reps you know one pound two pound three pound four pound but they're not going to lift heavy because mostly they're going to get hurt and they don't want to get big i don't know about you but i've been trying to get big for the last 20 years right i've been trying to get big too i just think as we're talking about resistance training and lifting as an early adopter, because you were, do you think that there's a moment, and I don't know exactly how to ask this, that the body just doesn't respond?

43:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Because everything that I'm seeing and everything that you've done means that the body can push itself beyond what you think is possible. I mean, the idea that you're going bad water, this was 130 degrees Fahrenheit. That means that if that was on asphalt, it would be hot enough to melt shoes. My shoes never melted, but some people's have. I mean, you're running in 130. I can't even be. I live in Texas. I'm complaining when I walked on the block. 135 miles on a surface that could melt the soles of my shoes. You know, and I just think over multiple days, I mean, you're 40 plus hours. That is there a point at which the body just is.

44:47Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I'm good. I can't do anymore. Or have we not even found that point? We have not found that point. We have nowhere near come to find what we're capable of. And I think that that's what I love the most about coaching for sure. Or even myself, like, I don't know what I'm capable of, even at almost 66. I know I'm not going to go run a 35-minute 10K, but I can still do a 10K, you know, but I don't know how far I can go. I believe I can run further, but not as fast with age. What are some of the things that you have seen slow down? Or I don't even want to enter it in that way. What are some of the things that you've seen change with age?

45:36Because I'm sure some things get better.

45:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:For example, I'm assuming we all get wiser. Yeah. Right? We have more experience. I mean, the 10th time you're doing bad water, you're a little bit older and you're more experienced, which means you're smarter. Correct. All of that. Changing with age, I think that it really is you do slow down. Like you slow down, but then some people aren't slowing down. I think there's such a mindset of just how hard do I want to work? Do I want to work hard enough to win that race or do I want to work hard enough to participate in that race? You know, going fast, you have to do a lot of hard, fast work to get there.

46:21So I feel for myself personally and many other people, we slow down because the desire to train, to go fast kind of diminishes. Been there, done that. Been there, done that. but I can still challenge myself and I can still participate and be there, you know, in winning age groups or whatever it might be. But I think staying strong is the key to even being able to continue the sport.

46:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And when you are training older women in their 60s, let's say 50s, 60s, and they've never trained before, Do you ever think, man, they're missing this piece that they have the opportunity? Because you started, I think you won one of your first races at 35. Yes. So you started earlier and that was in the 90s. Yep. People weren't even, many people weren't challenging themselves in that way. And there's always a first person, right? There's always a first woman or a first guy or the first. that's decades of having the opportunity to have the experience because you knew what was on the table someone comes to you and they're in their 60s or late 50s and they say you know i've never done this how can i find what's on the table for me guiding them through experience you know Sharing my experience, but also showing them facts and showing them other people that have just begun.

48:01You're not the only one who's just beginning. And it's becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and showing them the difference between lifting weights or being strong compared to not doing it at all. Bone density. That's one of them. and aging, looking at posture and every bit of from the tip of your toe to the top of your head is one big connection. And I think that many people that know me or that I met or trained say, well, you're just a freak of nature. I'm like, no, I work really hard at it. You know, three, four days a week, I'm in the gym. Like you have to do this. If you want to do what I do, you have to do this.

48:48If you want to do this, if you want to keep skiing until you're 80, 90, if you want to keep riding your bike or keep walking fast or running, this is what you need to do. And I'm not a freak of nature because I do it. And I think more and more now are coming along and you're helping that a lot, by the way, for sure. Of all ages, it needs to start when we're young. You know, I started when I was young because I had a good mentor watching my brothers. I had a good mentor. I started pulling tires and carrying backpacks and weights when I was young. More and more and more, they're doing it. So obviously somewhere down the road, somebody was watching.

49:36And, you know, and to me, if you can help one person, you've made a huge difference because then that one person will help another person and another person and becomes a ripple effect.

49:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:A ripple effect. That 50 year old, we'll just say that she's 50, is coming in never trained before. How do you begin to think about putting together both nutrition and training for them who's just starting out? I think about asking, you know, sitting down obviously are having them keep a food journal to see what they do eat. I think when people write down, you know, this is what I've eaten for the last three days. And they're like, whoa, you know, they can actually see that's where changes can be made. Because I think it takes a realization of this is where you can make changes and small, you know, small ones, but somebody who's never started lifting weights, start them light so they're not too sore.

50:37They don't feel defeated that the weights are too heavy, but encouraging to keep building, you know, keep adding more weight and adding more weight. And that's very difficult to get people over 50. I'm going to say 60. I mean, But I have 70, 80, you know, and they're, I've got an 85 year old who's doing farmer carries with two 30 pound kettlebells. We started with five pound weights, but it's really helping somebody believe that they can and believing that they are capable of so much more. And what do you have to lose by trying? You have, you're losing by not trying.

51:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I absolutely agree with you. When you think about designing a program, because you do design programs for people, what does it look like from a movement perspective? And here's what I mean. Oftentimes, if someone is starting out, we know that machines are safe. Even if in the training and athletic world, people say, oh, don't use machines. You need to do functional movements, again, whatever that means. how do you begin to think about, and let's say, let's assume this person has access to everything. So they have access to a gym, they have access to kettlebells. How do you start putting together patterns of movement for them?

52:02Well, it's uniquely different for each person. Obviously, we're all uniquely different based on age, size, goals. But I try to get people to learn how to use the equipment, first of all. Say I'm coaching somebody who lives in Houston, Texas, and I'm in Wyoming. There's always somebody in the gym who can take you around and show you how to use the equipment. Most important, form. I'm a form fanatic. I think that form keeps you injury-free and will help you move forward with getting stronger. So always finding somebody who is willing to show you how to use the machine.

52:42Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you always have someone start with a squat or is it a leg extension? Are there particular movements or body parts that you want to have everyone be doing? Squats, 100%. Sit to stand. Sit to stand. Sit to stand. You've got to, when I'm teaching classes, which I do, squats are so crucial to longevity of life, in my opinion. I just think you're sitting in a car, you sit in the bathroom, You have to sit on a soft sofa and you watch people get up and they can't. And so that is the non-negotiable first thing. Non-negotiable. You teach them the squat so that they can sit to stand. Absolutely. Number one.

53:23What's next? Well sits, lunges, push-ups. Push-ups, being able to get yourself off the ground. Whether you're 20 or 80, if you somehow land on the ground, around doing a push-up to help get yourself up.

53:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And was there something that happened along your career that made you reorient yourself to this? Because this is, it's really wise. Again, you know, I trained in geriatrics and when people are young and healthy, they're not thinking about pushing off the floor. They're not thinking about sit to stand. They're not thinking about how long it's going to take them. Because you and I have both seen people try to get up out of the chair and And, you know, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. But most people aren't necessarily thinking about the end point and the movements at the end point that people need to get to.

54:19I think the end point should be taught at a young age so that you're not getting to the end point. Your end point is when you're very, very old, you know, in that you've actually trained yourself your whole life because it is about life and longevity is life. And it starts young. You don't have to start when you're 80.

54:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But if you're starting when you're 80, that's where we start you. Even if someone is, would you say, even if someone is in their 20s, you want to see them squat well, wall sit well. Absolutely. Push-ups. Okay, these are the foundations. These are the foundations. And you asked, and I'll go back to what you asked how, my dad started shuffling his feet. And it drove me crazy. and I'd say, dad, pick your feet up, pick your feet up. You know, you're going to fall. And he was afraid he was going to fall. So the reason he was shuffling his feet was because he was afraid he was going to fall. Well, he did fall and he broke his hip and that was the end of his life.

55:24He died because of that. So this was 12 years ago. I have been on a mission with all of my aging athletes to pick your feet up. Like the minute you start shuffling, that's it. You fall. You're going to break something. You know, you're lucky if you don't. So if you do fall, you have to get yourself up off the ground. And these things need to be taught young. Like if you're running, you're picking your feet up and you watch people, how they move and pick their feet up. But picking your feet up really stems from your core. It stems from your upper body too. So you can't just think picking my feet up requires picking my feet up.

56:11I have to be strong to be able to continue to pick my feet up. And that fear is so real with aging athletes, aging people that I'm going to fall. So I'm going to shuffle my feet, but they do it without even thinking about it. And that's when they do fall.

56:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, I'm sorry that that happened. It's heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking. It was very tough. And it must be also tough for you to see. I don't know if you're really on social media looking at it, but you'll hear all these things like, oh, falling is not that big of a deal. And people are falling, but they're not really dying from fall. And you're just thinking, what world are you in that you don't think that that's happening? Or they're never getting up. They're going to get a new hip, and their rehab, and their quality of life is so diminished. It is such a different, I, again, I worked in geriatrics and part of geriatrics is palliative care.

57:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And, you know, from an epidemiology standpoint, we just see numbers. Oh, 150 ,000 people will fall and, you know, and in my mind, and I'm sure in your mind, that means nothing. We don't know how many are unreported. People don't know that what happens after the fall and how devastating it is and the time beforehand. The idea that we have to get strong and stay strong is everything. Absolutely. The cardiovascular activity is important. It's an addition. But the foundation is strength. And I'll just tell you a quick story. So when I finished fellowship, I did my fellowship at WashU and I had done a fellowship in nutritional sciences and geriatrics.

58:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I hadn't really been on social media before. I mean, who's got time, right? You're working a lot of hours. And then with the hours that you're not working, you're studying so that you can be a better doctor. And I go on social media and there's all this nonsense out there. People that are not, they don't have the experience necessary to then inform the public in a way that I think is some, you know, correct and honorable and right in many ways. You know what I mean? That it's important if it's your opinion and what experience an individual has versus what the science says and what we know from good data.

58:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:and where I'm going with this is that I realized that all this information that was being said, for example, reduce your protein intake. So you hear this information that may be okay if you're younger and might not be important if you're younger. But if a 60-year-old is hearing reduce your protein intake, or if a 65-year-old is hearing red meat is bad for you, or that strength training isn't important, the magnitude of effect on those individuals or that those people should be fasting. The negative effect and the inability to then recover, say that muscle, that will change the trajectory of their life.

59:26Agree.

59:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And that's why we need to have people like you talking. And that's why we need to have the podcast so that there is a form of education that has a conversation around it to really be able to experience what happens if the negative happens. True. And I've, you know, and I see it, I see it, you know, I've saw it in my own family and it was devastating where, you know, I wish, I hope everybody listens to your podcast and reads your books. And I'm so excited for what you are doing and your mission out there, because that's how I've lived my life. And that's my philosophy. And I'm just me trying to get it out there.

1:00:20But I'm so grateful to you who is getting it out there. And kids are listening. My children are listening. They're following you. And the ripple effect is what it's all about. You know, when one person might hear what I have to say. Mine comes from so much experience, trial and error. But I'm definitely here to tell you that protein is my main source. And I am concerned about youth with all carbs, all carbs, you know, back to running hundreds with only carbs. And, you know, that never worked for me. It just didn't. And I'm a real food person, you know, in hundreds. I eat avocados. I eat string cheese.

1:01:06You know, like real food is the way to go. You have to try. You have to try to find out what's going to work for you.

1:01:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When you are starting to work with someone, they do a food guide, write down their food. I'm sure in your mind, you're thinking, okay, this person needs to have at least 100 grams of protein and how they're going to do it. Have you seen changes over time, meaning what people come to you with? Absolutely. And then the change that they get? Yes. I mean, a lot of people, cookies and candy and chips, and they don't realize what they're eating until they actually write it down. And then you see it like, well, can you replace those cookies with an apple? Or can you replace that with some cottage cheese or something like that?

1:01:59You know, there's vegan and vegetarian, and there's so many different ways of eating now more than ever. You know, people who are in keto and only eating, you know, protein. I think that trying to get people into the mindset where you are leading, which is great, the more protein, but really just paying attention to yourself. You know, there has to be something with size of a person, the weight of a person, you know, all that. So I do look at that with different people, but getting people to change is tough. They have to want to. And I always go back to, if you don't try, you never know. So why not try?

1:02:42Because this way you'll find out. And hopefully try quickly and then pivot.

1:02:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah. What is necessary if you think about someone who is doing endurance? And I'm always curious because that's its own beast, right? You hear people fueling from jelly beans, like you said, and Gatorade versus, you know, we had Zach Bitter on the show last year and he was talking about how he was mostly, I mean, he's a low carb athlete, which is crazy. And then I see my husband's cereal stash. Yes, Shane, I found it. And yes, it's now in the garbage. How do we formulate kind of a game plan as someone is listening to this and they're thinking, okay, well, you know, I'm not quite ready to run a ultra, but maybe I'll start with a marathon.

1:03:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Something to that nature. Even a mile. Yeah. You know, you've got to start with something. Get off the couch. You've got to start with something. But from a nutrition standpoint. But even for a mile, your nutrition, it all goes hand in hand. Physical exercise, being strong, it all goes hand in hand. If you're going to try to get strong or you're going to try to run a mile or a 5K or a marathon, put it all together at once. Don't wait. Like, what are you waiting for? You know, you can say, oh, next Monday I'm going to start. And then Monday comes and you wait till next Monday. Well, soon it's 20 years of Mondays.

1:04:10And you've been saying every Monday, every Monday. I mean, you have everything in your power to start today. Like, quit postponing. I like that. Give it, I mean, what are you waiting for? Find your why. I want to feel better. I want to be stronger. I want to live a long, healthy, thriving life. I don't want to be sitting in the chair, barely able to get up. These are personal choices. So why not take a choice? So you're saying strength is responsibility. Absolutely. And it's a choice. People take better care of their cars than they do their body. You can trade in your car. You get one body. It is up to you.

1:04:51It is so up to you. You could tell me, I can tell you, but you just have to make the choice and do it.

1:04:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Fun fact, I have been using Kettle and Fire, one of the new sponsors of the show, for years. Their bone broth has been a staple in my kitchen when I was pregnant with my first child. And as a physician, I'm always thinking about the quality of the foods that I consume, that we consume. But aside from bone broth, what are we cooking with? And I spend a lot of time trying to secure ingredients, but fat is something that I cook with every day. And one reason I appreciate brands like Hell on Fire is that their tallow, they have 100 % grass-fed and grass-finished beef tallow. It has one ingredient, no additives, no preservatives, just traditional cooking fat.

1:05:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And it works beautifully with higher heat cooking, roasting, building flavor, and their bone broth, for example. I appreciate products that simplify healthy choices, making it easy to make good choices. It doesn't have to overcomplicate things. And for a limited time, you can go to kettleandfire.com slash Dr. Lion and use the code Dr. Lion for 25 % off site-wide. I love their bone broth and their beef tallow. That's Kettleandfire.com slash Dr. Lyon. Code Dr. Lyon. Do you find that there's a formula? For example, we know, and this is just the numbers, that if someone is training at a certain heart rate, let's say 120 beats per minute, that their carbohydrate use will be between 40 and 70 grams per hour.

1:06:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Are there calculations that you think about or do you send that to someone else? or do you go, okay, so roughly that this hour, this race is going to take 10 hours. Your target carbohydrate is around 500. Are there formulas that - For each person, there is. I mean, I try to go more on calories. My calories, 80 % is protein. But say in training or in an event, I definitely calculate. Yes, yes, during events. During events, I calculate and I get 200 calories an hour, 250 at the most, which I've learned that's all I can tolerate. Because you'll get GI side effects? Or bloating or just not feel well, too full.

1:07:19But less than 200, I feel awful. And when you feel awful is when you really need to get the calories. Do you care where the calories come from? I care that they come for myself personally more protein than carbohydrates because that's what I've learned works best for me.

1:07:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I always think about the biochemistry of people. It sounds really nerdy, but your body generates its own carbohydrates from protein. And it just seems for whatever reason that you are someone who's there. And typically that takes longer. but perhaps because it's endurance and I'm sure someone will send us the science perhaps because it's endurance there's a length of time because you don't do you not do gels or any of that I do maybe every few hours I'll do a gel I prefer applesauce 90 calories and the squeezies and applesauce it's easy digestible goes down quick even in the heat it's still cold feels cold that's when gels that taste terrible but yes you can feel a gel especially if it's got caffeine and you're tired does it help you it absolutely and you use caffeine if i'm tired we would consider caffeine an ergogenic aid you don't routinely use it unless you feel like you need it in an event like i drink a cup of coffee every day because i love the taste but i wait till I need caffeine because then it does really help.

1:08:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:What about supplements? Do you use any essential amino acids when you're training or branch chain or creatine? I use creatine. I don't use amino acids right now. Outside of training, you use creatine? I do. Does that, you find that that helps? Absolutely. When you see people go wrong, right? Because you think about your first race, the bathwater, the asphalt's melting, people's shoes are melting, their face is melting off. And they say you can fry an egg on the road. I've never seen it, but I would totally eat that. You know, a little alcohol to clean it up, but I would totally eat that. Do you see common mistakes that are being made?

1:09:29I do. The common mistakes are going too fast in the beginning because you feel great. You feel like Seabiscuit. You know, you feel like the racehorse, not having a plan in place. Tell me what do you mean by having a plan? First of all, you have to have a nutrition strategy plan. Like, what are you going to eat the day before? You're going to go eat a bunch of bags of spinach and have gastrial distress? No. You know, so trying to get people to eat normal and hopefully that normal comes up to like eating lean fish or chicken and rice and things that are going to be sustainable. What do you eat for breakfast that day?

1:10:13How soon before the race do you eat that breakfast?

1:10:17Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do you have recommendations for? or preferably I like like a bagel with almond butter, banana, things of, you know, calories that are protein and carbs that are easily digestible and sustainable. Um, and just drinking your sports drink, whatever, there are millions of choices of drinks, like the one that you have chosen that you've trained with, and that's going to work with you so that you actually start out hydrated and getting like a hundred calories before the event starts. That's when you start your, I'm going to try to get a hundred calories every 30 minutes so that I sustain myself for the period of time and constantly sipping fluids.

1:11:06Like if you, if you wait an hour and 120 degrees, you're done. You're done. Or if you, you know, you wait, so you're, it's constantly sipping constantly, you know, I have my students do a sweat test. How much sodium do you need? Oh, let's talk about that.

1:11:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That is so cool. How much sodium do you need? Like everyone's different. Yeah. That's very cool. Do you have a kit that you use or something like that? Well, you can buy kits, but there's also a formula that you can use. You know, you, it's a dry heat, but man, you are hot and you are sweating. How much sodium? People are afraid to take sodium. When you're in an environment of that kind of heat, you need sodium. Would you say it's fair that when people are sweating, it's not, I mean, it's not just water. They're sweating out electrolytes or sweating out sodium. And that if you just replete with water, that's probably not the most effective repletion strategy.

1:12:02No.

1:12:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, water is water, but it's not electrolytes and it's not, I mean, you're not going to make it on just water. You know, so you have a plan. You have a plan with, you know, how much sodium you need, the calories that you need. You know, you're smaller than me. Maybe you only need 150 calories an hour, but you've worked on that in your training. And that is what fuels you to feel good. And if you stray off that, you're going to bonk. And, you know, and by bonking, you just mean like, that's it. Well, that's it, but you can come back, but you might have to rest. You know, if you're having to sit down and chug bottles of electrolytes, you're way behind.

1:12:42Like there is a way to stay on top of it.

1:12:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We recommend, so I still have a medical practice and obviously I'm here in Texas, but we have athletes all over the country. And one of the things that we always have them do is, again, we always have them use electrolytes. One of the electrolytes that formulas that we have them use is it's a company called Body Health and it's Body Health Electrolytes. And these electrolytes also have some essential amino acids. Yeah, that's great. We're going to have to try those. I'll give you some. Actually, I'll give you a box. What we're seeing is that it's not just a utilization of carbohydrates, but they're also using the body's protein.

1:13:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And this, when you replete it, you replete the fluids, but you also replete some amino acids during training. And it seems to be able to help people go further. Makes perfect sense. Um, again, I don't, I personally don't recommend people just replacing water, especially if they are sweating or being super physically active. Is there an obvious mental toughness difference between those that are going to make it, those that are going to stay at the 10, assuming they all have a strong why? Is there something that you're like, that person, they got it. It's really watching the evolution of the person, the growth of the person.

1:14:08And your why is forever changing. Sometimes, you know, your passion and your purpose, your purpose and your passion, they change and they evolve with growth. Some people decide that they don't love it. You know, that there's something else out there for them. Maybe the 10 miles made them perfectly happy. Then there's others who get to the 10 mile and they want to try something more and more and more, but some are quite satisfied. And to me, you can pick some of these people out, but you can also change your mind if you see potential in them in growth and that they're really capable that we all get stuck, you know, sometimes, or maybe they had a bad experience and that's, you know, they say like, you didn't finish something.

1:15:00There's reasons why we don't finish things. I mean, I have certainly not finished things and I don't call them DNF. You, you stink. You, you're no, you're no good. That's basically what it says to people. DNF. I call it an MTRC, you know, live to race another day. Sometimes the wheels fall off and there are necessary reasons why you're not going to be able to finish, but we shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. Those are the best growth lessons right there is to learn from not finishing something. It's not failure. It's literally learning. And if you learn something, you've won.

1:15:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I'm hearing this common theme through the conversation. And there's a level of reframing to positivity. Did you experience that the same way? Absolutely. Is that a conscious choice? It is a conscious choice. I mean, you can either walk around and feel bad about something or you can find the silver lining. I definitely believe that we have experiences, good, bad, and ugly, and hopefully more are good than anything. Sort of like average, good, or great. Average, good, or great. Average, good, or great. I mean, you can be an average golfer. I'm an average golfer. I'm a good cook. But greatness, how do you hit greatness?

1:16:26How do you hit greatness? It's a lifetime of work. It's a lifetime of work to hit greatness. I mean, you are hitting greatness. So amazing to watch, you know, and you have a lot more greatness in you because you're still striving. You're still moving forward. You know, for myself, I want to be a great mother, a great, you know, spouse, a great friend, a great daughter, and then a great coach or a great mentor or somebody who can influence even one person to really find what you're capable of doing. And not just physically, emotionally, spiritually. And that comes with being peaceful. It comes with being peaceful and accepting not everything is going to turn out the way you trained for.

1:17:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And it doesn't have to be this. our society, part of what I think society does is they say, okay, well, this was a failure. You turn the failure into success and feel bad about it because that feeling bad about it is going to move you to a place where you're never going to do it again. But what you're saying is definitely more of the way of this peaceful warrior that, okay, it didn't go as planned, but that doesn't mean it was bad, means whatever that decision you made at that time was the right decision for you. And that simple fact of being the decision that you made that was right for you at the right time can perpetuate into something even greater.

1:17:57Yep. Make the right choice. Or I made the right choice for me. I didn't fail. You know, a DNF does not mean you fail. It means you actually learn. and you made a really good choice that I'm not able to finish today. Something I trained really, really hard for. Or, you know, in the Olympics, I trained to win. Somebody trained to win and they were 10th place because they got a flat tire during the triathlon. I mean, the wheels fell off. You had to make a choice. How does someone practice that? By believing that anything is possible. good, bad, the ugly, average, good, or great. Like you can train for the best, the best of the best and hope to have your best day.

1:18:48And it doesn't turn out that way. Are you going to spend the rest of your days never doing it again because you feel bad? Some people do. Some people do. But you know, I heard your assistant this morning, she had a terrible experience in her first ultra because it didn't turn out the way she had thought the course would be. It was more rocky, so she's never doing another one.

1:19:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So let's say she had completed it and it was what she interpreted as a terrible experience. Is that enough to say, you know what, that's not for me? Yes. But the idea that there is something that is unfinished, do you believe that that should be finished and then the decision should be made? I believe in seriously contemplating unfinished business. Like why, your why. Why did you sign up in the first place? Okay, I didn't finish this time. I'll give you an example. So 10 bad waters, right? 10 bad waters. But I had one unofficial finish, meaning I didn't finish the official race course. I had landed in the hospital getting an IV.

1:20:01You're disqualified from the race. But I left the hospital and I went and finished the race. I went and finished, but it was unofficial. So for years that I was fine with it. Got 10 bad waters, got 10, even though one's unofficial, but it never went away. Like, you know, reading, she did nine bad waters and one unofficial. So she had 10, but it was one unofficial. So I really was eating at me, that unofficial. so that's when I went back and got the 10th official so in my mind it was on a finished business but that was me I really wanted to have the official so you got to decide what's important to you you know was it so bad when you made the choice to not finish that you truly were not enjoying it at all you never want to go back again you found out that this isn't for you That's okay because there is something else for you.

1:21:03But there's a danger in having unfinished business. There's a danger in having it. You have to live with it. You have to be okay with it. You're the one who has to say, doesn't matter to me, but does it really not matter?

1:21:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Would you say it's more dangerous to start something and not finish it than it is to not start it at all? Oh boy, that is such a great question. I think if you can't stop thinking about it, you really should sign up. Like if you just can't stop thinking about it, sign up. You have everything in your power to try your best to get to the starting line. And getting to the starting line is half the battle, along with your nutrition and strength and everything else that goes with it, if you want to dedicate yourself to improving yourself. And if it doesn't work out, you'll be okay. you'll be okay because you'll be better for it.

1:22:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But then you better complete it the next time. And if it doesn't work out the next time, I mean, I know people who've gone back five, six, seven times to finish, to like do something. Look at Diana Nyard. Like what? It took her six tries to swim across the ocean. The first five, she didn't make it, but I have such respect that it was so important to her that she figured out how to finish. She figured it out. And that's not for everybody, you know, but finishing and completing things are important. Lisa Smith-Thatchen, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm extremely inspired. I know that the listener is going to be, and the viewer is going to be inspired by your commitment to both excellence and living someone's dream, living their dream so that it's not left on the table.

1:22:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:and then finally I know that you're on a mission to make people stronger and it means so much to you and I know you personally and I've seen it and I I'm just really grateful thank you thank you I'm grateful for you