Big Pharma's Trillion Dollar Deception on Mental Health | Joanna Moncrief

26:22And so I suppose there's a degree of learned helplessness that people are experiencing that feeds into mental health problems. And I completely agree with you that the problem with this medical model that we've got and with encouraging the idea that you can treat depression with a pill is that it discourages people themselves from trying to work out what they might be able to change about their own lives, how they might be able to improve their own lives, how they might be able to take an active role in their recovery. and discourages governments from asking why so many people are depressed and unhappy and introducing social policies that might improve people's living conditions.

27:13Dr. Mark Hyman:It's really interesting. I think those are all so essential things. I mean, we have to deal with the social determinants of health. But, you know, there's also the commercial determinants of health. I don't know if you've ever heard that term, but it was sort of developed by the WHO. is a way of understanding the way in which corporations are determining our health through their actions, whether it's the ultra-processed food industry, tobacco, alcohol, pharmaceutical industry, all driving for profit and undermining public health. And I think these promote these ongoing social, political, and environmental causes.

27:50Dr. Mark Hyman:So it's just this really kind of almost disease-creating context we live in in the world today. And the individual is often at the effect of all this stuff. And unless you have some understanding of how to have agency and how all these things affect you, the average person has no clue that if they're eating ultra-processed food, it's going to give them depression. They may know it's not the healthiest for them. They may know it makes them gain a little weight, but they don't understand the full impact of these behaviors or things. And I think, you know, empowering people with agency, and you talk a lot about this, how do we have more agency and how do you help people have more understanding of what they can actually do themselves, in some ways to protect themselves from the onslaught, from the medical industrial complex and from the pharmaceutical, you know, industrial complex and the commercial interests that are driving towards people being unhealthy and increasing, you know, commercial benefit, but really undermining public health.

28:48Dr. Mark Hyman:So how do you help people think about that on an individual level? You're a psychiatrist. I mean, this is kind of how you have to think about these things. So we have a food industry that, as you say, is thrusting ultra-processed food at people, making people unhealthy. And then we have the pharmaceutical industry that's coming up with drugs that, you know, anti-obesity drugs. It's a great business model. weight down yeah exactly as well as antidepressants to deal with the fact that you know when you're unhealthy and overweight you're much more likely to be unhappy as well so we've got all these you know different different huge commercial sectors working in synergy with each other almost it's maybe gonna be a new drug ozempic combined with prozac yeah yeah yeah yeah don't even don't even put that out there i'm sort of someone's i know but this is how pharmaceutical industry thinks they're trying to manufacture illnesses and they've done this i've seen this happen throughout my career and we graduated medical school around the same time and it's like it's sort of the sort of medicalization of problems is sort of what you're talking about um and and this medicalization undermines our ability to really look at you know when one of the one of the bigger context issues that we just talked about.

30:05Dr. Mark Hyman:You know, one of the things that I see emerging, I love your perspective on this because it does kind of, it's kind of nagging me in the back of my head because I don't quite understand it. And there's this sort of psychedelic revolution going on in psychiatry, and there's a lot of work being done in the UK and a lot of the US and a lot of clinical trials. And the orders of magnitude of improvement is so far greater than placebo and then antidepressants and other psychiatric medications for PTSD, for anxiety, for depression, psilocybin, MDMA. Even now, Ibogaine is being talked about more, which is a root medicine from Gabon in West Africa that has profound neurochemical effects.

30:49Dr. Mark Hyman:And I've actually even taken it myself, and I can tell you it is profoundly neurochemically altering, not just in the moment, but it seems to have lasting effects around trauma and brain repair and brain trophic factors to get released. And I wonder how you think about that because in some ways, it is a biological framework for understanding how to treat disease. And the interesting thing about these compounds is that it's not like an antipressant where you have to take one a day for the rest of your life. It's a couple of treatments or not that many that seem to have really profound, long-lasting effects.

31:25Dr. Mark Hyman:So I'd love your perspective on that. I don't know if it's an area you think about, but it's just kind of, as you're talking about the biology of this, I'm thinking, oh, wait, you know, maybe we should talk about this. No, no, absolutely. I do think about it because they're also very popular or becoming popular in the UK, this whole area of psychedelic medicine. So this is how I think about it. I think that we need to think about all the drugs we use, that whether we use them recreationally or whether they're prescribed, if they're drugs that cross the blood-brain barrier, they're drugs that alter our mental states in one way or another.

31:59And that's how I think we should think about all drugs, rather than as things that target underlying pathological mechanisms. Because no drug that we use for mental health, whether that's antidepressants or antipsychotics or Valium or mood stabilizers or anything else, has been shown to actually do that, to work in that way. um so psychedelics are psychoactive substances they are psychoactive substances that give people a very unusual experience and some people find that experience to be enlightening and to give them insights into their lives and into their pasts that might help them going forward and the The original introduction of psychedelics into psychiatry, original, they were sort of reintroduced maybe a decade or so ago in the context of what was called psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

32:59And the idea was that you'd have one or two psychedelic experiences in a sort of clinical setting, and then you would process your experience, what you might have learned from that with a therapist. And the idea was that for some people, there would be insights that would help them to get over what they were suffering from and to move forward in their lives. the problem is that model isn't isn't great for people who want to sell psychedelics or psychedelic experiences because it's just once or twice that you're going to take the things and um you know if you're setting up a psychedelic clinic like with the ketamine clinics that have got going in the states you wanted people to keep coming back you want an annuity but that's not how

33:49Dr. Mark Hyman:we should be practicing medicine it's like it's like we give an antibiotic for an infection we know it's only for a week and that's great. You're not going to take antibiotics for the rest of your life. So I think most doctors probably do care about doing the right thing. It's just the system is set up not for that. And so what has happened with ketamine, which was set up with the same sort of model, same idea in mind, is that the psychotherapy has gradually dropped away and people are encouraged to and certainly have got into the habit of going back repeatedly for their shots of ketamine. And so it becomes a long-term treatment.

34:23And we have no idea about the safety or, well, actually, we do have some idea about the lack of safety of long-term ketamine use, because we've got data from recreational drug users on how it damages your bladder and things. We don't have terribly good data on long-term repeated use of other psychedelics, because they're not so often used in that way. So that's my concern about psychedelics. I think the idea that some people get insights from using them is fine, but I worry that we will end up with the same old model of people just going on to chronic long-term treatment because that's what makes organizations money without knowing very much about the possible negative consequences of doing that.

35:11Yeah, although you can go to work on Prozac.

35:15Dr. Mark Hyman:You can't go to work if you take a big dose of mushroom or MDMA. But of course, this microdosing idea has come in, hasn't it? What do you think about the microdosing? I mean, I think you look at the literature on the toxicity of these drugs, like not MDMA particularly, but like psilocybin or LSD, there seems to be a very low toxicity and very high safety threshold for these drugs. So microdosing as a therapeutic option is something that's interesting. And I've been talking to some scientists about it. It seems that there's some increasing, you know, both anecdotal and clinical literature on this.

35:48There's a film, there's a Swedish film that's come out recently, which is about, I'll try and remember the name of it before I finish, which is about a group of teachers who decide to go to work having had a glass of wine or a small amount of beer or something like that, having had some alcohol. And their theory is that if they just have a small amount and maybe have to top it up a bit during the day, they'll be at that lovely sweet spot where they're confident and outgoing, but not too drunk. And the film is about how that goes horribly wrong, really.

36:26Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, microdosing alcohol, I don't think is a good strategy because we know that's a lethal poison. But the point is that, you know, I think these ideas are fine, but actually, when you're dealing with, you know, psychoactive substances, it's maybe not so easy to, you know, to control it in that way or to get the sweet spot exactly. And we don't, as I've said, you know, we just don't have any good research on the long-term effects of regular daily use of psychedelics, which hasn't been how they've been used traditionally. it's true i agree i mean but it sort of lets me sort of wonder about the the the brain effects uh these compounds and and how they're they are altering brain function they're altering brain structure they they increase neuroplasticity neurogenesis um and also neurochemistry in ways that seem to have like lasting effects and i i don't um i don't know how to comport that with the sort of the what you're talking about which is sort of this sort of failure of this chemical theory of mental illness maybe we're just thinking about it wrong i don't know how to think about it i love your sort of advice on that well well i i worry about all these um ideas that they're enhancing neuroplasticity i don't think there's actually that much evidence that they are but if they are if there is research showing that it's not necessarily a good thing because because often you're seeing neuroplasticity, neurogeneration when you're getting damage.

37:57There was a suggestion that antipsychotics and antidepressants improve neuroplasticity, but we know, and the evidence that was offered was that they're altering some growth, some nerve growth factors, but actually we know those are altered in the same way by having a stroke or having a brain injury. So it doesn't necessarily show that the drugs are doing, you know, something that's good. It may be that they're harming the brain. And what we're seeing is the brain's reparative mechanism.

38:29Dr. Mark Hyman:No, that's interesting. That's one. It's so complicated, isn't it? I mean, I want to pivot a little bit because you do talk about this sort of drug centered model versus a disease center model. I'd love you to sort of unpack that. I don't quite think about people are familiar with that. I'd love you to sort of explain your view on this. The conventional way of thinking about drugs like antidepressants is this idea that they are working by targeting some underlying biological mechanism that leads to the symptoms of depression. That's often been said to be a deficiency of serotonin, but it could be some other abnormality.

39:09So people have recently proposed abnormalities in inflammation and they may be related somehow to how antidepressants are having their effects. But it's that basic idea. And what I'm saying is that antidepressants, like alcohol, like cannabis, like psychedelics, are mind-altering substances. They change the normal state of our brain chemistry and our brain activity, and they therefore change our underlying thoughts and thought processes, feelings, sensations, etc., in more or less subtle ways. So I'm not saying antidepressants are exactly the same as alcohol. Of course, they're not. They're different sorts of chemicals.

39:49They have different sorts of effects. And some antidepressants have quite noticeable effects. Maybe people feel quite different, quite groggy, lethargic, for example. And some of them have much more subtle effects. And one of the effects they have is this emotional numbing effect. but so that's that's what i've called a drug-centered model of drug action that is understanding these drugs as drugs as foreign chemical substances that induce mental alterations that are then superimposed onto people's underlying feelings in the same way that that the effects of alcohol are so you know we know that if you might be feeling down you go out and you have you know a few drinks, temporarily you might then feel better because of the effects of alcohol.

40:39That's not because it's rectified a chemical imbalance. It's certainly not because it's rectified an alcohol deficiency. It's because the characteristic alterations induced by alcohol is temporarily superimposed onto your underlying feelings.

40:58Dr. Mark Hyman:One of the questions I get all the time is, what's the healthiest way to boost your energy? Here's the truth. Many people depend on coffee to get through the day. But for a lot of people, it can become part of the problem. Coffee can contribute jitters, energy crashes, cravings, disruptive sleep, and increased stress on an already overworked system. And that's why I've been enjoying Sun Goddess Matcha from Peak for years. At a time when demand for high-quality matcha has created shortages around the world, Peak continues to source some of the pure ceremonial-grade matcha available. It delivers a calm, sustained energy thanks to its natural combination of caffeine and naltheanine, helping support focus and productivity without that roller coaster that so many people experience with coffee.

41:36Dr. Mark Hyman:And what I also love about matcha is it's packed with powerful antioxidants that supports healthy aging, metabolic health, and radiant skin. And for an even more powerful longevity ritual, I add Peaks Carrera Marine Collagen. Carrera combines premium marine collagen, biotin, and pearl powder to support skin elasticity, hydration, hair, nails, and the whole body vitality. Together, they create a simple morning ritual that helps you feel energized today while investing in your long-term health. To experience Sun Goddess Matcha and Carrera for yourself, visit peaklife.com forward slash hymen to exclusively receive 15 % off for life.

42:09Dr. Mark Hyman:That's P-I-Q-U-E life.com slash hymen. As we head into the busiest stretch of the year, longer days, travel, more on your plate, your immune system is working overtime. And that's why now is the time to make sure you're giving it the support it needs. I rely on HDB Immune Energy Shoes from Big Bold Health. Each serving delivers 1 ,000 milligrams of sprouted Himalayan tartary buckwheat, a powerful seed packed with over 100 immune-active polyphenols like quercetin and rutin. Now, these compounds are studied for supporting healthy immune balance and longevity, but it doesn't stop there. Each chew also includes vitamin C, vitamin D, magnesium, and zinc, all nutrients your immune system depends on, especially when you're pushing hard.

42:50Dr. Mark Hyman:And because they're chews, not pills, they're convenient and delicious. Perfect for your bag, your desk, or wherever the day takes you. If you want a simple way to support resilience, energy, and focus this summer, try HTB Immune Energy Chews. Go to BigBowlHealth.com slash DrHyman, that's D-R-H-Y-M-A-N, and use the code HYMAN15 to save 15 % off your first order. And how does that sort of connect to the drug-centered versus disease-centered framing of mental health? So what I'm saying is that drugs like antidepressants have been misleadingly portrayed as having these disease-centered or disease-targeting effects, whereas actually the way we should understand them is having drug-centered effects as being drugs that produce alterations to our normal or undrugged states.

43:45Dr. Mark Hyman:Which makes a lot of sense. So given all that, what's a more honest look at mental health today in terms of an evidence-based model of what mental health care and mental health approach to mental illness could be? The first thing to say about an honest approach is that we really don't have evidence to conclude that any sort of mental health condition, but particularly things like depression or anxiety, are biological diseases in the sense that Parkinson's disease is a biological disease. We haven't detected any underlying disease processes that might explain or count for the symptoms. And there are other ways, as we've discussed, of understanding the distress, the sadness, the unhappiness, the despondency that people go through at different times in their lives.

44:40So I think that's the first thing to say. And then also that we have been misled about the nature of the drugs that are prescribed for mental health problems into seeing them as these specific, targeted, sophisticated substances, whereas actually what they're doing, like alcohol, like other recreational drugs, is inducing an altered artificial mental state that may temporarily suppress underlying feelings, but it is not resolving anything.

45:11Dr. Mark Hyman:Like a band-aid. Yeah. Just to emphasize this, I'm not trying to, because I think this fits in with some of your views as well, I'm not trying to suggest that the brain is irrelevant. We are biological creatures. We're embodied creatures. And the reason that we have the range of sophisticated and refined emotions that we do is because we have such large brains, such large and complex brains. It's our large brains that enable us to interact with the environment in a super sensitive way and flexible way. That kind of begs the question of what now? If these drugs are not the answer, what is? And how do we support people with depression without defaulting to antidepressant medication?

46:00I think we need a really radical change in how we approach mental health problems. This medical model encourages us to see us in the health professions to see ourselves as treating diseases. But what we should be seeing ourselves as doing is helping people with their individual problems. I think if you get away from that disease model, then you can understand that everyone who is depressed is depressed for different reasons. There are different causes for everyone. There are as many causes of depression as there are people with depression. And we need to help people with their individual situations to identify why they are feeling as they feel now and what can be done to change that.

46:54And it's not complicated to do that, but we're so entrenched in this medical framework that that sort of forces us down the route of thinking that we're treating some thing that is somehow the same, some condition that's somehow the same in everyone who has it. that we are failing to treat people as individuals often and to really identify what their problems are. I mean, I think this happens, you know, this is happening out there in the community as well, because people I find, and I'm sure you find the same, you know, will often come to me saying, oh, you know, I think I've got depression. I think I've got ADHD.

47:33I think I've got this. I think I've got that. I think I've got, yeah, you know, a diagnosis that they might have sort of spent quite a lot of time looking up. And it can be quite difficult then to get underneath this label that people have decided they have to find out what the actual problems are, what are the difficulties that they're having with their day-to-day life. Just wanted to add something more to that because people often say to me, well, that's all very well for a lot of people, but what about people who have really severe depression or have depression when there doesn't seem to be any obvious cause, any obvious reason for them to be depressed.

48:14So I'd just like to address that because I think that's important.

48:18Dr. Mark Hyman:That was going to be my next question. It's important to say that there is no evidence that severe depression is caused by any specific biological mechanism either. But of course, we're all different and some people will react to possibly quite trivial problems in their lives in a much more severe or intense way than other people will. And so there are some people, obviously, who get into a really bad state, who take to bed. Sometimes they refuse to eat or drink. Some people get sort of depressive delusions. And in that situation, we need to make sure that we take care of people. the evidence that antidepressants are any use in that situation is no better than than in any other situation they're not they haven't been shown to have um you know clinically relevant substantial effects in people with really severe depression any more than they have for people with milder milder episodes of depression but it certainly is important that we help and take care of people in that situation because they can, well, often they can't take care of themselves.

49:33And, you know, sometimes people can try and commit suicide. So it is important to keep people safe and to remember that almost everyone will come out of it eventually. Most people will recover from depression eventually, naturally in their own time, hopefully helped by being cared for. And as soon as they're able to do it, being helped to identify things that might improve their situation. Because even people with this very severe depressive reactions are often reacting to circumstances. So it's quite typical, people who get into this severe state, it's quite typical that they're older people who have just been affected by a bereavement, loss of their spouse or other loved ones, or retirement is another thing that can trigger these sort of episodes.

50:24Dr. Mark Hyman:People listening are going, well, gosh, if these things don't work and there's$20 billion of these drugs prescribed here globally, millions and millions of people are taking them and they're listening, what do they do? And how do you responsibly deprescribe them? And how do you support them as they're getting off of them? And how do you direct them to resources that can actually help address those underlying causes? First of all, it's important that people take their time to think about it and think about how the drugs are affecting them, the pros and cons of those effects. And then if they decide that and read up about the side effects that they might be experiencing, because sometimes people are getting side effects and they're not aware that it's, you know, they're not aware that it's the drug that's making them feel sleepy or groggy or maybe be interfering with their sleep.

51:16And then if people decide that they do want to come off the drug, I would suggest that people go and see their doctors. Hopefully the doctor will be sympathetic and will draw up a plan with you to come off it slowly and sensibly. If your doctor tells you to come off in two to four weeks, don't take their advice, particularly if you've been taking these drugs for years at a time because you may end up in a really bad state. There's information for people out there now about how to come off antidepressants safely. A colleague of mine wrote something called the Maudsley Deprescribing Guidelines that gives really detailed evidence on how to reduce doses gradually if you're experiencing difficult, significant withdrawal effects.

52:07So yes, so the main evidence is don't do anything in a hurry, make a plan, try and get support from your doctor or from some health professional, and come off slowly, particularly if you've been taking the drugs for a long time.

52:23Dr. Mark Hyman:And then what do they do on the other side of that? Because people are saying, well, great, I'm going to get off this drug, but I'm going to be depressed. You know, what do I do? So yeah, that's a really good question too. And also during the process of withdrawal, people might feel one of the withdrawal symptoms is to feel sort of really intense emotions, tearfulness, anxiety, all those things can happen during withdrawal. And often people will assume that they're having a relapse because of those emotional symptoms. But those symptoms can be part of the withdrawal process. And to the extent that they are part of the withdrawal process, they will gradually fade as the body gets used to not having the drug in the system anymore.

53:07So that's the first thing. Then the second thing, if people are still depressed, is the same advice as I would give to people who are depressed for the first time and thinking about possibly going to see their doctors. The most important thing is to try and identify why you feel as you feel. What is it in your life? What is this emotion signaling to you? What is it in your life that is getting you down and that you might be able to change to improve how you feel? That's the first thing. The second thing is, as we've been saying earlier, take exercise, eat well, optimize your physical health because that will make you feel better mentally and emotionally?

53:52Dr. Mark Hyman:I think that's important is that, you know, we have to lean in on the things we know have been scientifically proven to work. Eating a whole real food diet, regular exercise, especially cardiovascular exercise, getting adequate sleep and circadian rhythm regulation, managing stress, and just learning how to regulate your nervous system. And then there are other things that are easily addressed, you know, whether they're nutritional deficiencies, which are extremely common, whether it's omega-3s or vitamin D or folate or B12, things we know from the scientific literature do actually impact you.

54:25Dr. Mark Hyman:And then there's, you know, the whole other layer of things that can cause depression that we know can drive inflammation in the brain, whether it's the microbiome changes that we now are understanding, whether it's environmental toxins. So there's actually a pathway, and it's what I've spent a lot of my life thinking about. And I think, you know, it sort of speaks to sort of really reframing the narrative of mental health from this sort of idea of some chemical imbalance, which was sort of the framework of your book, to really a more sort of holistic view of understanding of health, both from the sociological, political, environmental aspects, and some of the other biological factors around lifestyle that we're just ignoring.

55:04Dr. Mark Hyman:And I think that's a really important moment, I think, in psychiatry. It feels like a really historical moment where we're basically understanding, one, the degree of which trauma affects us from our childhood. And two, I think the psychedelic revolution is also opening up a different perspective of how do these things work. And I think we're sort of entering a new era of psychiatry and mental health. And hopefully, it's not like just like, okay, well, Prozac didn't work. Let's just stop it. And then you're all like kind of left-hand holding the bag. I think that's a depressing thought literally in itself.

55:37Dr. Mark Hyman:So I think it's kind of a hopeful moment. Do you feel hopeful about the future of psychiatry? Possibly. I'm not sure. The backlash I've had to both the book and the FDA panel on pregnancy is a bit depressing. But I'm always hopeful at an individual level because I see people who sometimes have been depressed for years who do nevertheless manage to recover the agency to overcome what they're feeling and to make changes and to feel better. I see that all the time. And I think, you know, this is what I object to. What I object to most about telling people that they've got a chemical imbalance is that that is a really depressing message.

56:21That's telling people there's something wrong with your brain. There's nothing you can do about it. You've got to rely on, you know, someone giving you a drug. And so I think just correcting that mistake and informing people that there isn't something wrong with their brains and that they do have the capacity to improve, to recover, to change is actually a positive and a hopeful message.

56:47Dr. Mark Hyman:Amazing. Well, everybody definitely should take that to heart and should check out your new book, Chemically Imbalanced, The Making and Unmaking of the Serotonin Myth. It was definitely a wrong left turn that we took in the 90s. And I think, thank you for helping us correct it and rethink our approach. I really appreciate your being on the podcast. Is there any final words or thoughts you'd like to share with our audience? I suppose inform yourself because, you know, especially with the backlash I got to the book, I realized that there are elements of the medical profession that don't want people to think for themselves, that want people just to go on, you know, believing expert pronouncements about things which are not always accurate.

57:29I know that's a scary message, but I think we need to be informed as patients, as consumers nowadays, we need to inform ourselves and not just take things on trust. We have been essentially lied to about the nature of depression for two and a half decades now. So yeah, people need to do their own research and not just take things on trust as we may be used to.

57:58Dr. Mark Hyman:I think we're in that moment in medicine where people are wanting to have more agency, are less sort of idealizing the sort of medical profession as a know-it-all profession. And sort of the emperor has no clothes a little bit here. And I think it's important, not that medicine doesn't have a lot of value and that we've both been trained in traditional healthcare and medicine. And it does have a lot of really good things about it. And doctors are generally very compassionate, kind, good people who want to do well for their patients. It's just that even our own profession has been hijacked in ways by commercial interests that leave us not knowing what's true sometimes.

58:37I think people need to realize there are areas of debate and discussion within medicine. And, you know, things aren't necessarily as clear cut as the media and scientists themselves sometimes portray them.

58:51Dr. Mark Hyman:Absolutely true. And thank you for having the courage to take on something that's quite controversial and challenging the orthodoxy and moving science forward. I really appreciate your work. And it kind of validates what I was even seeing almost 20 years ago. There were early signs in the literature that even in the 2000s, it was like, wait a minute, this isn't quite what it was promised to be. So thank you for doing the hard work and making people like me look smarter. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It's been a real pleasure. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it.

59:27Dr. Mark Hyman:You can find me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to The Dr. Hyman Show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Dr. Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on The Dr. Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health where I am Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions.

59:57Dr. Mark Hyman:Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness Center at ultrawellnesscenter.com and request to become a patient.

1:00:27Dr. Mark Hyman:It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the public. So I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible. Thanks so much again for listening.