In short
ADHD symptoms are amplified by nervous-system dysregulation; the episode argues that getting out of fight-or-flight first improves executive functioning, reduces “ADHD paralysis,” and increases enjoyment of life. It criticizes the ADHD field for treating symptoms as fixed and only offering coping tools.
Guest backgrounds
Jenna (therapist/counselor specializing in ADHD; previously used “band-aid” tools like timers/calendars). She was diagnosed at 32 after having two kids under two years; she describes postpartum depression and a frantic-intense/crash cycle. The host is a functional medicine doctor (mentions treating neurodevelopmental issues broadly and writing The Ultra Mind Solution).
Key claims
Many adults (especially women/high achievers) are diagnosed later because coping strategies mask dysregulation until capacity drops. “Freeze” is deer-in-headlights, not collapse. Urgency/fear motivators create a bear-chasing cycle that worsens burnout. ADHD regulation is a 3-stage method: nervous system, thought/belief, then behavior.
Notable examples
socks-at-night overwhelm; “hammer out work then collapse”; all-or-nothing cleaning; “not enough time” belief; misdiagnosis as bipolar.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding ADHD Symptoms
0:00 to 1:03
Learn how fight or flight impacts ADHD symptoms and quality of life.
“My executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight or flight.”
ADHD and Biological Dysregulation
2:20 to 4:25
Explore how biological factors affect ADHD symptoms and functioning.
“particularly your framework around how biological dysregulation, nervous system dysregulation really amplifies the symptoms and makes functioning sometimes very hard in people with ADHD.”
Coping Mechanisms in ADHD
4:25 to 7:16
Learn about coping strategies that mask ADHD symptoms in adults.
“why are so many adults, especially women and people who are high achievers, suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD or ADD in their 40s, 50s, and 60s?”
The Impact of Fight or Flight
7:16 to 9:25
Understand how being in fight or flight exacerbates ADHD challenges.
“People have a lot of coping strategies that sort of hide their ADHD, like perfectionism, people pleasing, over-preparing, working under pressure.”
Life Transitions and ADHD Awareness
9:25 to 14:00
Discover how life changes can trigger awareness of ADHD symptoms.
“to get into the dysregulation, the nervous system dysregulation that makes ADHD a lot worse.”
Understanding the Impact of Hypervigilance
14:00 to 15:22
Learn about how hypervigilance affects daily life and societal rewards for sustainability over intensity.
“And you're getting chased by the bear and the bear leaves.”
Understanding the Impact of Hypervigilance
16:51 to 17:38
Learn about how hypervigilance affects daily life and societal rewards for sustainability over intensity.
“So a lot of people with ADHD believe that they're really great under pressure.”
The Relationship Between ADHD and Dysregulation
18:35 to 23:19
Examine how ADHD relates to chronic dysregulation and the importance of sustainable motivation.
“So I have my weekend free, like I want to do things and I want to live a good life and I want to get things done and do fun things.”
Nervous System Regulation Techniques
23:19 to 28:00
Understand methods for regulating the nervous system and improving overall life quality.
“So kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is we're really slapping that label on it and going, everything you're experiencing is ADHD.”
Understanding Nervous System Regulation
28:00 to 29:10
Learn how to notice bodily responses and the importance of nervous system regulation.
“You know, even if I'm working and I'm typing something, I might notice my shoulders are a bit up.”
Show all 20 chapters
Dysregulation and Beliefs in ADHD
29:10 to 30:57
Explore the connection between dysregulated thinking and ADHD symptoms.
“And that's where a lot of people stop, you know, oh, nervous system is body, it's somatic, just do that.”
Challenging Core Beliefs
30:57 to 32:51
Discover strategies to challenge dysregulating beliefs and gain awareness.
“But that belief, what that belief is saying is I should be over there.”
Behavioral Changes for Regulation
32:51 to 34:34
Examine the importance of behavioral changes in achieving nervous system regulation.
“Now I'm just trying to not die, which is going to include a lot of seeking comfort, avoiding all discomfort, scrolling, spending, substance use.”
Behavioral Changes for Regulation
40:05 to 40:52
Examine the importance of behavioral changes in achieving nervous system regulation.
“Bloating, gas, irregularity are often brushed off as minor issues, but they can really interfere with your quality of life.”
Understanding ADHD and Dysregulation
42:00 to 44:14
Explore how life circumstances influence ADHD and emotional regulation.
“It wasn't something you got diagnosed with earlier for yourself.”
Challenging ADHD Labels and Beliefs
44:14 to 46:16
Discuss the misconceptions surrounding ADHD and the importance of exploring underlying causes.
“And, you know, it's like, I think it's important if you think you have something like this to go kind of root, root around for the causes, but also like to learn how to regulate your system.”
The Importance of Regulation in ADHD
46:16 to 48:56
Learn about the significance of regulation and how to shift perspectives on ADHD.
“And, you know, ADHD paralysis is one of those things that I do believe, and this is just a personal opinion, that paralysis is freeze, fight, flight, freeze, fawn.”
Overcoming Rushing and Panic
48:56 to 51:04
Understand the effects of rushing and how to maintain a calm demeanor in stressful situations.
“That's not, we've really normalized a lot of these things as well, even in modern society, not just for ADHD, but for everybody.”
Self-Compassion in ADHD Management
51:04 to 53:58
Explore the role of self-compassion and positive features of having ADHD.
“I mean, I think rushing is, you know, when you feel so overwhelmed, you feel so many things you have to do, you just want to kind of get it all done.”
Promoting ADHD Regulation Tools
53:58 to 55:13
Discover tools for ADHD regulation and where to find resources.
“Living well with ADHD is less about and more about.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00My executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight or flight. That's the main complaint of ADHD. So the symptoms go down because the dysregulation is going down. Enjoyment of life goes up. So we have a much higher quality of life when we're out of fight or flight. Kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is we're really slapping that label on it and going everything you're experiencing is ADHD. Nothing you can do about it. All you can do is cope. Good luck to you. No, it can get so much better.
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1:39Dr. Mark Hyman:One active ingredient, C15, that strengthens your cells to support healthy aging. Don't take my word for it. Look at the science. It's all published at discoverc15.com. And that's what convinced me to take it every day. And that's what will convince you too, I think. Head to fatty15.com forward slash hymen today and use the code hymen for 15 % off your 90-day subscription starter kit. Welcome, Janet, to the podcast. So great to have you on. I'm excited to talk about ADHD. It's a big problem for a lot of people. I think you have a very interesting frame on it and an interesting way for people to navigate, you know, differences that people have that are often debilitating if you don't know how to handle it.
2:16Dr. Mark Hyman:So I'm really happy to get to talk about this. Me too. Thank you. So I want to dive into it. particularly your framework around how biological dysregulation, nervous system dysregulation really amplifies the symptoms and makes functioning sometimes very hard in people with ADHD. And, you know, I just want to sort of start out by first saying that, you know, we are a spectrum of expressions as human beings and not all of our neurological differences are pathologic or problematic. In fact, they can be superpowers. And I think, you know, we're going to talk about that, but it's how you harness them and how you regulate yourself to use those differences in a way that actually help enhance your life rather than harm your life.
3:02Dr. Mark Hyman:But with that said, I wanted to just zoom out for two seconds and give people a perspective that I've developed, you know, as a functional medicine doctor, treating patients with the whole spectrum of neurodevelopmental issues from dyslexia or ADHD to all the way to autism spectrum disorders and the whole gamut in between. And I think there are increasing evidence that the brains are very responsive to what's happening in the body and that a lot of times when people have dysregulated brains, it often can be factors that are treatable, whether nutritional factors, nutritional deficiencies, gut issues, environmental toxins, infections, food sensitivities.
3:53There's a lot of things that go into understanding how to optimize brain health.
3:57Dr. Mark Hyman:And I've written a whole book about it called The Ultra Mind Solution. We have a course, a curriculum on it called The Brain Shaping Academy, really about how do we optimize our brain. But that's sort of a topic for another podcast. I just want to sort of lay that out there as something people also should pay attention to. If they're struggling with ADHD, they should really understand that there are often biological causes that should be looked at as well as just learning how to actually enhance your superpowers with the talents you have. So that said, I want to sort of dive in by asking you, Jenna, why are so many adults, especially women and people who are high achievers, suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD or ADD in their 40s, 50s, and 60s?
4:38Absolutely. So, you know, societally, we did have a traditional view of ADHD. It's the little boy running around the classroom. And whether it be nature or nurture, little girls don't always act the same. So we go under the radar, myself included. It's a little bit more internal struggle and a little bit more working hard to compensate. So from the outside, it's like, you're doing OK. Your grades are all right. You're not too disruptive. Just kick you along. And that happens long enough. And then as you become an adult, you get more responsibility. And I know for me, that moment came. I was diagnosed at 32 when I had two kids in under two years.
5:19And my life just was too big for my coping mechanisms to keep up with. And I really saw like, I don't think this is quote unquote normal, what I'm experiencing, the level of overwhelm and intensity and struggle I was having. So that's when I started looking into, you know, just typing in my symptoms, what's going on here. I didn't have the label even to myself of ADHD yet. I just knew something doesn't seem quite normal.
5:46Dr. Mark Hyman:And what were you struggling with? I would say overwhelm was probably the biggest, like sweeping the floor felt like. How am I going to get the energy? It's just too overwhelming. My favorite quote that is in the book that I told my college, asked my college roommate, do you ever not want to take your socks off at night? Because then you have to put them back on in the morning. Like, God, really just overwhelmed by daily life and thinking my capacity was low. And then, of course, throw a newborn baby and a one and a half year old in your arms and it just all falls apart. and I couldn't cope. And that's where it kind of fell apart where, oh, I was overwhelmed by just me.
6:32Dr. Mark Hyman:And you think people just sort of live with this and don't have any way to sort of contextualize their symptoms and think it's just them and that there's something wrong with them? Yeah, absolutely. Like, oh, life's just hard for me, I guess, and kind of carry on until often a breaking point of my coping mechanisms don't work anymore. So I also work with probably mostly women, some men as well, but I would say almost everyone's over 35 that's been recently diagnosed because, you know, it was working. I was able to frantically get stuff done the night before and just cope and keep my head above water.
7:07And then as we age, of course, biologically things change as well and just can't do it anymore. And then the cracks start to show and then people are seeking something to explain it.
7:18Dr. Mark Hyman:People have a lot of coping strategies that sort of hide their ADHD, like perfectionism, people pleasing, over-preparing, working under pressure. Like, you know, talk us, talk us through some of these coping strategies and how they kind of mask what's really going on and then prevent people from really interacting with what's going on with them in a way that allows them to, to be fully thriving. So, you know, I'm going to bring this in early because this is what I work on is, you know, I have seen that every ADHD I've met, I understand it's anecdotal, but it's thousands of people are also in fight or flight.
7:54So being in fight or flight can mask the struggles you're having, or you're at least surviving, right? You are keeping your head above water. Perfectionism is a mechanism of being in fight or flight, right? Protection. If I do this perfectly, no one can criticize me. No one can get mad. I can't get in trouble. Always feeling like you're about to get in trouble. And so you're just always trying to get out of harm's way, doing those things at the last minute, procrastination to urgency cycle. But then we feel like, well, it's a superpower. Look, I can hammer out a huge work project in one day. So maybe this is just the way I work.
8:29And so you can see a lot of overcompensation, masking, but all of those things are also symptoms of being a fight or flight. So it's a very tricky kind of ball of yarn that we're unraveling once we get an ADHD diagnosis. Um, my wish and goal is that the first move is, oh, you have ADHD. Okay, let's get you out of fight or flight first. And then maybe we're adding in, you know, the functional medicine stuff, we're adding in the coping mechanisms, we're adding in the tools and the strategies. but if we have a brain that's different and that brain is in fight or flight it really is going to feel like that debilitating thing that people right now call adhd and i i think the field is putting it all in a bucket and calling it adhd instead of realizing oh the adhd brain tends to fall into this state let's get it out of this state and make it a lot more manageable i want
9:25Dr. Mark Hyman:to get into the dysregulation, the nervous system dysregulation that makes ADHD a lot worse. Sometimes, you know, people don't know they have it and it gets unmasked when things are happening in their life, whether it's, you know, becoming a mother like you did, or, you know, working on your career or when you have to be a caregiver, your parents are going through menopause. Like, how do these major life transitions actually start to sort of trigger awareness that there's a... Well, I definitely see it as, you know, I love a good metaphor is I have been keeping my head above water well that does not leave much room for anything to change right so once there's a little bit more to manage i'm now drowning so it's like i've just been just here you know it's not a lot of room if we're functioning where water is waist height i can handle some changes i can handle transitions i can handle more but if you are just getting by which you know being a fight or flight is survival mode that's the definition of it just not dying and then now your parents are your responsibility or the responsibility of kids raises that water, you can't not face it anymore because you're going under.
10:32Dr. Mark Hyman:For you, like your, your, your awareness really started when you were 32, you're in graduate school, you're raising two young kids. What kind of finally pushed you beyond your ability to deal with things and compensate? I think it really was just the amount I needed to handle. As I said, I was just handling life before kids. So you start creeping that water up and I'm starting to drown emotionally. I, you know, had a quite, not extreme, but definitely noticeable postpartum depression. I do think that was a direct reflection of my level of dysregulation. I was like, now that I'm drowning, I'm really unhappy and I can't catch a break and I can't get a breath of air.
11:22And I was like panicking. Um, and so that really started to go like, I can't go on this way. It's just really hitting that wall of, okay, I was getting by, but I'm not getting by anymore.
11:35Dr. Mark Hyman:And then you, you kind of realized you had to do something different. Yeah, absolutely. And that's when I got the diagnosis, which was great. Like, oh historically i make a lot more sense to myself i see why i do what i do but then i carry on carried on with life and i was like but nothing's changed just because i know something right that adhd label doesn't solve any problems no and you're talking about these sort of highs intense highs and crashes and you thought maybe you had bipolar depression what was actually happening Yeah. So that was the fight or flight. So I really was in like two modes and dysregulation, right?
12:13Just like when we have a fever and our temperature is dysregulated. I'm too hot now. I'm too cold. Now I'm too hot. Your body's compensating in both directions. Well, same when we're in fight or flight, I'm really intense, kind of running from the bare energy. And then I collapse and then I'm intense and then I collapse. And so we'll call that ADHD. we will think oh that's a normal part of the experience um but now that I focused on regulation for a while I'm so much steadier so that up and down has really relaxed and I was really interesting when I got into this field how I expressed this feeling of you know I was almost like am I bipolar like sometimes I'm intense and going hard and sometimes I'm crashed out and frozen and the amount of misdiagnosis of bipolar disorder that people get before they get an ADHD diagnosis was so interesting.
13:07Dr. Mark Hyman:People get all kinds of different labels, right? They don't really see what's happening. When you talk about this frantic crash cycle, and you see it a lot in adults with ADHD, can you talk about what that is and what it means and how you experience it? When we're in fight, flight, freeze or fawn, because a lot of people think freeze is the crash, but that's just another expression of my system is feeling so unsafe that I'm reacting in a certain way. Like a deer in the headlights. I like people to think of that freeze as deer in the headlights, not collapse because it's different. But when we're in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, it's a very biologically intensive state to be in, right?
13:47You have that allostatic load, like constant stress, and I'm intense. This is intense. Your body cannot sustain that forever, And so you will crash just like if, as when we were primal beings, which we still are, we're just in a modern world. And you're getting chased by the bear and the bear leaves. Now you're going to go collapse in your cave, right? And then when you get back up, you're on hypervigilance. I'm on alert. Where's the bear? And then I collapsed back in the cave. And so that's what's happening, but we're not in danger. So it's really negatively affecting us for no, you know, you're not benefiting from it whatsoever.
14:22Dr. Mark Hyman:And that just creates like a lot of disruption in your life. And I imagine that was very disruptive. You know, I've really started to see that our society actually rewards sustainability more than intensity. Like if you can show up at your job every day, make some progress, chip away at it, you are going to get so much further than I'm showing up for a few days, like a really intense way. And then I'm collapsing for a few days. And then whether you're an entrepreneur working at home, that is not a rhythm that works well in our world. It's true. It's true. We're so great. One of the biggest misconceptions about aging is that feeling older is inevitable.
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16:46Dr. Mark Hyman:So go to ronutrition.com and use the code HYMED for 20 % off site-wide. That's H-Y-M-A-N at R-H-O-nutrition.com. So a lot of people with ADHD believe that they're really great under pressure. They need the pressure. They need the stress. But what's the long-term cost of using that urgency as the fuel for doing stuff in the world? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why we have such high levels of burnout, everyone going on leave of absence, worked with an alarming amount of people who are on a leave of absence from work because that's not sustainable. And again, like we just mentioned, you kind of got to live a sustainable life if you want to live a successful life, you want to be able to keep showing up in your life every day.
17:30And so it's, it will burn out, you will hit a wall. But also, it isn't really working, like fear motivators so guilt shame urgency and fear so i guess those um like push motivators i'm running away from something if we harness those i understand when you're in fight or flight it feels like but without that i have no motivation but that's because we're stuck in that cycle where the only thing that motivates me is being chased by the bear the minute the threat is gone my system collapses. So I have to use anxiety, pressure, deadlines, intensity. But that's the inherent trap of dysregulation is it's a cycle.
18:12The more I use those negative motivators, the more I need to use those negative motivators, the more I collapse when they're not present. So now I need them more. And it just gets worse and worse and worse versus when we're regulated, you're in more of a like, Oh, I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm neutral. I'm just here. And now I can use my pull motivators desire and it will be great to get this done. So I have my weekend free, like I want to do things and I want to live a good life and I want to get things done and do fun things. So once we get into those motivators, when we're more regulated, I compare it to like bear chasing energy versus berry picking energy.
18:53So when you know when you go pick berries like oh I'm going towards something I want something it's a more sustained energy I'm just collecting productive but I could sustain this where it's chasing from the bear energy yeah damn you can run fast when the bear's chasing you or when your boss is mad at you or when your deadline is coming but when that bear is gone you have nothing left and you know that's not going to lead to this sustainable life that we're looking to lead that's going to be much more enjoyable and much more successful.
19:25Dr. Mark Hyman:How did you come to this idea that you're about your central argument, which was that ADHD and the chronic dysregulation are related, but not the same thing? And then like actually how a lot of things that people think are ADHD are actually more dysregulated nervous system, fight or flight, that sort of amplifies it all. Can you kind of to walk us through how you sort of come to understand all that and why? When I did start working with clients with ADHD as a therapist, I did some courses, right, to get some specialization and I could tell, okay, so we don't know what to do with ADHDers. We are giving them tools, tips, tricks, band-aids.
20:06It felt very band-aid to me, like, use this timer. If you keep forgetting, use this reminder use this calendar we're drowning here I don't want another buoy I want to get out of the water um so I started to see but you know but I used that because that's what I was taught so that's what I used with clients as I started of course they wouldn't do it they wouldn't do anything they'd show up to the next session feeling even worse because they didn't do what was assigned um and then I started to see you know hundreds of hours of talking to people you start to see patterns like oh so we are all in a dysregulated you know I'm intense or I'm nothing all or nothing that's my thinking is all or nothing my behavior is all or nothing my energy is all or nothing oh okay well if this is like our main problem if we got those borders to come in a little bit and that pendulum swing to stop being so extreme I think we'd get a lot further so that's what I started working on and researching you know how do we do that what is going on seeing oh that's a but this is fight or flight that's happening okay well let's work on that I am pretty stubborn and a hopeful person of like if I don't like something I believe I can make it better I just got to figure out how so for myself I really started working on regulation and regulation alone to cope myself and like within six months a year I'm like I'm a different person this is crazy like I can still see that I have ADHD I still see some unique thinking.
21:35I still see, you know, a couple little potholes that I have to swerve around and support myself in. But it's like 10 % of what I dealt with. I haven't experienced ADHD paralysis in two or three years, whereas I used to live in that daily. And so, you know, obviously, I understand this is anecdotal, but we got to start with theories somewhere of, okay, well, I see my brain has changed by doing this thing? What if the brain, everything we're contributing to the brain difference is actually the brain difference in this state? Because we can get out of states, right? The brain is the brain. We have the brain we're born with.
22:18Obviously, like you mentioned, we can do other health stuff to support that, but the brain makeup is the brain. Okay, but what if we get it out of that state, what happens? Well, you know, then you start learning how, you know, the symptoms of being a fight or flight are almost identical to the symptoms of ADHD. Do we even know what ADHD is? Like being a fight or flight blocks dopamine receptors. ADHD is a dopamine problem. Well, if we separate these things, what are we left with? And so it was really like a question on my end of let's see and um it was so cool the other day because i'm starting to train other therapists in this approach i just sent out an email to my past clients like do you think i should you know therapists should be learning this and why and i was flooded with the stuff of like yes i've tried everything else is the only thing that made a difference yes like everything else is a band-aid and these are people who were two years ago and that's why i love it is like once you see it you can't unsee it once you're regulated you know what that feels like and you can sustain it this isn't like a short-term tip trick tool that's just going to collapse um when you get overwhelmed it's it's really a philosophy and a way of living when you start seeing oh my god my executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight or flight that's the main complaint of adhd um so the symptoms go down because the dysregulation is going down enjoyment of life goes up so we have a much higher quality of life when we're out of fight or flight.
23:47So kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is we're really slapping that label on it and going, everything you're experiencing is ADHD. Nothing you can do about it. All you can do is cope. Good luck to you. No, it can get so much better.
24:03Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, you know, it's interesting. Isn't nervous system regulation important for everybody? I mean, you wrote your book, it's called The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulations, The Secret Finding Balance, getting things done and enjoying life. Basically, I think the thing I'm clearly aware of is that it may be more important for someone who's sort of got underlying ADHD, but isn't this something that's important for all of us? Yes. And that is why I'm currently writing my second book. Which is really about how it affects all of us. Because you have this model, it's called the ADHD regulation method, which is three stages.
24:39Dr. Mark Hyman:And it involves nervous system regulation, thought and belief regulation, and then behavior regulation. Can you kind of walk us through each of those systematically so we understand how you're thinking about this? Because most people will go, yeah, I know my nervous system is a little bit off. I know I'm a little bit jacked up, and I know I'm a little bit amped up, but they don't know what to do about it. And they know it's interfering with the quality of their life, their relationships, their work. But it's hard to sort of reset the nervous system. It's not an easy thing to do. So it's actually easier to change your diet or exercise than it is to change your nervous system.
25:16Yes, which is why people, you know, when I'm talking about this work, they'll go, yeah, but what's a supplement I can take? I'm like, look, you're trying to bypass the hard work. That might also be important. But, you know, it's harder work to do internal stuff where you have to manage yourself and go up against discomfort. But it's required in the puzzle. We have to have that foundation. so we can't bypass it through like external stuff we may add the external stuff um but just to point that out but yes absolutely so the process is first physical and i really focus on in the moment regulation versus task-based regulation so we have a lot of somatic exercises out there you know tapping breathing exercises yoga meditation like oh did my meditation today check moving on and then you run around like a chicken with your head cut off all day and then you meditate in the next morning.
26:09So I really focus on in the moment of like getting so good at knowing the exact feeling of dysregulation and symptoms of dysregulation. So things like, you know, tense muscles, a lot of us have TMJ trap tension, because I'm like on the defense, shallow breathing, rushing, impatience, any physical signs of anxiety, anxiety itself, all of these things when we're feeling them we go ah I'm dysregulated and we want to interrupt that physical state in the moment so if you're running down the hallway to a meeting it's like oh okay I'm dysregulated deep breath relax those shoulders slow down we want to communicate to the nervous system that you are not in fact getting chased by a bear and we can only do that through action you can't talk to it but if you're you know walking calmly to a meeting your body goes oh maybe we aren't in danger that's a possibility and then it's much like working out at the gym you got to get your reps in interrupt again and again and again and again and again but over time your body starts kind of naturally going oh maybe we don't need to be in this physically intense state um and that's that's quite a bit more effective than like one-off activities of course adding those activities like breath work and tapping and all that stuff icing on the cake that's great but if you are drowning if you are in survival mode i find giving tasks to be quite fruitless they aren't going to do it and they're going to feel shitty about not doing it and then it's going to get worse so this is why i really like this like hey let's just build awareness and adjustments as you're living the life you're already living is much more accessible than any sort of more on the to-do list more structured stuff and it'd be
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28:02Dr. Mark Hyman:something simple as just noticing how you're feeling and taking a deep breath yeah exactly especially if you're breathing shallow where that's communicating to your body danger danger okay like that's going to interrupt that state and go hey nervous system nope we're okay we're safe look i wouldn't do this if i was getting chased by a bear i wouldn't slow down and relax if there was actual danger near me look okay and then you might speed up by the time you're at the end of that hallway that's okay we just want to keep bringing ourselves back down physically. You know, even if I'm working and I'm typing something, I might notice my shoulders are a bit up.
28:39And I'll go, oh yeah. And you keep doing what you're doing. Like you keep going on with your life. You don't leave. I think that's something we're prescribed a lot of like, take more breaks. No, that's training your nervous system that work is dangerous. Breaks are safe. Well, now it's really hard to work in a regulated way.
28:57Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah, it's true. And a lot of people, you know, with ADHD or have these struggles, they get told what to do like here's productivity tools here's a routine here's a strategy a behavioral strategy but your point is that nervous system regulation needs to come before all that totally because a drowning person can't put more on their shoulders like we have to get you out of survival mode now you have the capacity you have the energy you have the bandwidth if you have no bandwidth don't hand them anything it's pointless it's just going to make it worse um and so that's the physical piece. And that's where a lot of people stop, you know, oh, nervous system is body, it's somatic, just do that.
29:37But our brains are connected to our part of our nervous system, like the way you think the beliefs you hold are formed based on a body that's felt in danger, probably your whole adult life. So our thinking is now dysregulated, where we are very negative leaning. We're scanning for danger, very anxious thoughts. You know, fear, guilt, urgency, shame. We're often fighting with reality. We're feeling panicked all the time. And the mental work is like to get us out of fight or flight as well mentally. But a lot of people go, well, you can't think your way out of dysregulation. No, but if you are thinking in a dysregulated way, you're going to stay in dysregulation.
30:21Like we have to get that brain thinking in a regulated way, which to me, a big part of it, I try to like sum it up. Obviously it's a little more complex because it's the brain is a complex place. Um, but we want to align with reality. So a lot of our beliefs are fighting with reality, which is very dysregulating because you will lose that fight every time. Like I'm behind, I need to catch up. That is the number one dysregulating belief ADHDers hold that I've heard. So if I believe I'm behind, I need to catch up. I mean, there's no way I'm going to relax and slow down.
30:57Dr. Mark Hyman:Right. Because I'm not insane. I'm behind. I need to catch up. I got to go. I got to be fast. I got to be panicked. I got to be anxious and I got to run. But that belief, what that belief is saying is I should be over there. Okay, but you're here, but I should be further along okay but this is where you are so it's like bringing that brain back to like oh I am where I am now let's take the next step from here instead of I need to be further along I need to be further along and behind and behind and behind creates this nervous system go straight back into panic mode this is like the behavior and this is a thought and regulation right that the belief and thoughts that you have and managing those directly totally and And a lot of it's subconscious.
31:44So you might not totally realize you're functioning from these core beliefs, but they're always, so it keeps those gears turning and keeps that panic going. You know, another one is like, there's not enough time in the day. But there is the time there is like, why keep fighting that? There's not enough time. There's not enough time.
32:02Dr. Mark Hyman:This is true. It is true. Fighting with reality is not a good strategy for having to. No, it's like you're all, you're never going to change linear time and space. Sorry. That's just how it is. Let's make peace with that. You are safe to just be with the time you have. And let's just use it. But if I go, there's not enough time. I mean, that does not give me a relaxed feeling. That does not give me a calm, present feeling. That gives me a panicked, pressured feeling. So now, instantly again, back into dysregulation. So if we do not get this brain in congruence with the calm body we're trying to create, nothing will ever change in any sort of substantial way so you're saying to sort of catch your thoughts and your beliefs and be more intentional about like examining them yeah first we need to be aware of like what are my beliefs and thoughts you probably don't even know because you're moving so fast through life it's just like it's subconscious we haven't stopped to think or we believe our thoughts we believe our beliefs of course but there isn't enough time the amount of people that argue with me online yeah but I am behind okay but is it not more true that you are where you are and they're like yeah but I have so much okay that's all in your brain it's not it's not that modern life isn't that doesn't have a lot going on it's just that we are thinking in a way that puts our system in a panic that brings blood flow from the brain from our digestive system into the limbs we're not thinking clearly our executive functioning is going down.
33:33Our logical thinking is offline. We can't be creative. We are now we're in survival mode. Now I'm just trying to not die, which is going to include a lot of seeking comfort, avoiding all discomfort, scrolling, spending, substance use. Um, and I don't know why I'm doing it eating. I binge ate for 10 years and now I've have a healthy relationship with food for the last 10 years. Um, and I, like you, I couldn't binge eat if you paid me. Like I physically don't have the capacity anymore because my system is regulated. Like it's so interesting how dysregulation affects everything. But that's the mind piece because we must work on our thoughts and beliefs and regulate them, bring them back down to earth, be at peace with reality, be functioning from, you know, where we are, which is a very kind of bigger, more complex way to talk about grounding you know we can put our feet in the grass but we also need to bring our brain into the physical world instead of being up here and what i call potential shoulda coulda woulda ideals what ifs negative self-talk judgments it's just like a swirling vortex of dysregulation
34:45Dr. Mark Hyman:exhausting it's true it's true and how do you help people kind of overcome that so we do a few different things so one is like being aware of that potential in reality and i always ask my clients like how much of the time do you think you're in potential of like thinking about anxieties what you could have done what you should have done regrets past future judgments 80 to 90 is the biggest 90 of your life you're not even here in the physical world you are up here in panic mode and hypervigilance like good luck calming your body down like we have to get that brain into like okay, it's safe to let go.
35:21You do not need to be hypervigilant. You are not in a life or death situation here. It's okay to just be where you are mentally and physically and take the one next step from there. And then I like to look a little closer and go, okay, what are your specific core beliefs? Kind of what's your narrative you have? And for some people it's like, oh, there's not enough time. I just feel a time scarcity constantly. And that's like run, that's my motor like okay we got to start challenging that belief when it's coming up
35:50Dr. Mark Hyman:well it feels true right it feels true i mean there's so much i want to get done in a day and i never have enough time to do it all so i just posted something the other day about like do you not have enough time or do you just want to get everything done today which is more which is more true well time is what it is so maybe it's like it's a me thing i'm trying to fit too much into too little of time and saying I don't have enough time. So just starting to realize like, where can I make more peace with what is and that's going to be there is the time there is. I can only do one thing at a time.
36:22I live in linear time and space. Okay, let's get on board with that. And go for the journey, walk down the path of life instead of I got to get further, I got to get further. Like, it's just tiring and dysregulating, which then gives us all these symptoms that are so debilitating.
36:41Dr. Mark Hyman:And you talk about like the behavioral changes too, like not just a thinking changes or beliefs, uh, like not just sort of somatic practices, but actually what, what, what actually do you mean by the behavior changes that you, you sort of suggest? Yeah. So we have the body, we have the mental, and then we have the behavioral, which it's all or nothing thinking that we're really working on, but that creates all or nothing behavior. So we're really working on that behavior. I'm either cleaning the whole house and wiping the baseboards and deep cleaning the carpets, or I'm not even picking the towel up off the floor.
37:16I'm either hammering that work project out the night before, I'm not even going to start. I'm either going to do it perfectly or not even try. And we get in these behavioral patterns of extremes that we want to start interrupting in a behavioral way. So we have to start finding balance in the way we are physically functioning. So yes, in our body, we need to have more calm, get out of panic. Mentally, we need to be more aligned with reality. But we also need to act in a more sustainable way. And so that is going to look, you're going to see that more in your physical being. So for example, a lot of people who are in fight or flight, even if you're not, are going to, you know, really have, I don't want to say cockeyed, but like imbalanced calendars.
38:05Like I try to hammer out all my meetings on Monday so I can have Tuesday completely open. That's not regulated behavior. It's like I'm frantic and intense on Monday and I collapse on Tuesday. You're setting yourself up for that. We want to spread things out behaviorally, schedule wise, environmentally to go, oh, no, I could live this day again and again and again. If you are living your day in a way where you're like, I could not sustain this, we are not in regulated behavior. So that might mean spreading the meetings out over the week, chipping away at a task instead of sitting down and hammering it out for 12 hours and then collapsing after.
38:44And that's a retraining of the nervous system because it's going to feel uncomfortable when you've been used to all or nothing thinking, which is a biological mechanism of being a fight or flight, right? If you are in the forest in imminent life-threatening danger, primally, we need to think black and white, safe, not safe, good, bad. Like that's there on purpose. But now doing it in our situation, I am assuming people are physically safe, is completely debilitating and gets us in that. Like I'm doing lots and then doing nothing. And then I'm doing a lot. And as we've spoken about a much more productive and enjoyable life is like, that's my sound for regulation.
39:26It's like, I'm making a little progress every day. And that's building momentum and building into a great life. And I'm not having these intense collapse patterns with how I'm doing things.
39:37Dr. Mark Hyman:So it's just really about creating a more regulated nervous system, more deliberate practices. more awareness of your beliefs and thoughts, more simple behavioral changes that can help kind of move you toward a pattern that's sustainable rather than this sort of intense dysregulation and trying to deal with everything. And it's like, I find often people just, you know, just do get overwhelmed and they kind of shut down if they have ADHD. Yeah, that's that freeze, deer in the headlights. Bloating, gas, irregularity are often brushed off as minor issues, but they can really interfere with your quality of life.
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41:49Dr. Mark Hyman:And if you're looking for another way to build resilience, sauna therapy may be worth exploring. Visit Sunlighten.com and use the code HYMAN to save up to$2 ,100 plus free shipping. You know, you kind of came upon this later in life. It wasn't something you got diagnosed with earlier for yourself. And, you know, I think being a mother was a factor. And it's often a turning point. There's like sensory overload, interruption, lack of sleep, repetitive tasks, like parenting. How does that sort of, you know, interact with this whole phenomenon that you're describing around ADHD and dysregulation? I've really started to see that you know a very strong line in the sand with dysregulation of but it is a stressful time like having a baby is stressful so it's normal to be in fight or flight or of course I'm going to be even you know bigger things like I have a very stressful job or this is a very stressful time of life so of course I'll be dysregulated dysregulation and being in fight flight is only, only ever useful when you're in imminent life-threatening danger.
42:53So that's something I like to put a line in the sand with of like, yes, I know you're going to justify your dysregulation. You're going to normalize it. You're going to see reasons why it's valid, but it's always hurting us regardless of if I had two new, two little babies or not, regardless of, you know where my business is or how much I have going on at work um which just kind of gives me that oomph now and that belief now of like no matter what I have going on I'm always keeping regulation in mind like how could I make this better how could I find some relief even if it's a very big stressful situation where where's the dysregulation making it worse so in you know having new babies uh that was a very hard time for me and that is not my forte I do not want to go back there and I do not want to have another child because it was very hard.
43:44So it's inherently not my cup of tea, but my God, had I known about the regulation work during that, I could have really taken a big layer of the suffering off of something that still probably wouldn't have been my cup of tea. Um, but yeah, kind of just speaking to what you're talking about, I think is just realizing, oh, it's, it's always relevant regardless of what's situationally happening. Yeah, it's true.
44:08Dr. Mark Hyman:I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's important to just sort of know yourself and to track your mind and your patterns. And, you know, it's like, I think it's important if you think you have something like this to go kind of root, root around for the causes, but also like to learn how to regulate your system. And I think your, your approach is, is powerful. um you know you were trained as a therapist and counselor um and and you sort of you sort of talk about your training a little bit and saying that you just got a sort of a grab bag of tools for adhd you know tools calendars worksheets different hacks like what what did you feel was missing from your own training around this yes it felt like uh admittance or Or like we've just waved the white flag.
44:57ADHD is what it is. Nothing we can do about that. It's like, would you tell that to someone with PTSD? Well, you're in PTSD. Nothing we can do about that. That's just how you are now. You're just in fight or flight now for the rest of your life. Like, no, you would never say that to that person. So why are we saying that to ADHD? Or it's like, well, this is just how your brain is. Best of luck to you. I find that so disheartening because a lot of people believe it. And they think, well, this is just how it is. and you know, you see a lot of stuff online about it's a disability. It's so debilitating.
45:26It's so horrible. It's not funny. I agree. It's not funny when you're struggling, but this is not inevitable. It does not have to be this hard. You know, when people talk about superpowers of ADHD, I really do think there's some stuff in there that's really special. You know, being unique is not a bad thing. Being different is not a bad thing, but if you're in survival mode, yes, I understand how debilitating that can be. And the ADHD field loves labels and loves symptom labels of like, well, that's ADHD paralysis. Don't look at it any further. That's just what it is. Accept it and move on. Where in my approach, just as, you know, I work with people, I really encourage everyone to look under the hood of everything.
46:06Well, why? Why are you in paralysis? What's happening biologically? What's happening in your mind? What's happening? Like, let's dig around there and figure it out. And it's always something. You're going to pull some sort of thread of dysregulation is not just what it is. And, you know, ADHD paralysis is one of those things that I do believe, and this is just a personal opinion, that paralysis is freeze, fight, flight, freeze, fawn. That is not an inevitable symptom. I do think there's some ADHD stuff that's still present. I would say my working memory is still rough. That is not something that's gotten better with regulations.
46:44I still see a few little symptoms here, but a lot of it way dialed down and paralysis wiped out. So yeah, I really just think we don't actually know what ADHD is because we haven't factored for being in and out of fight or flight.
47:00Dr. Mark Hyman:I mean, you know, you talk about these dysregulation goggles and, you know, in terms of your training therapists and like you you know you're probably imagining there could be a different way that doctors or clinicians could start to look for things so what do you mean by dysregulation goggles and what should clinicians look for when they put those on totally yes whether you're a client or a clinician is like first observing symptoms and behavior as in okay well where's the dysregulation here it's probably for every single client there's going to be some fight or flight, some dysregulation of some sort, regardless whatever else they have going on.
47:40And the reason it's so important to look for it is because you can do something about that. Like the ADHD brain I have, as the field seems to think, is like, that is what it is. So why focus so much on that? Where can I find the dysregulation that I could improve? And so you put those goggles on, you start to see everything in terms of regulation, dysregulation, fight or flight, God, everything makes so much more sense when you look at it through that lens. Even other people, you know, someone's being so rude. Oh, you sweet thing. You're in defense mode. Oh, you don't feel safe. Like, okay, carry on.
48:15Like, you're going to have so much less disdain. You're going to understand people and yourself so much better of like, look, we are all just little animals running around the world trying to stay safe. We are not as like developed and like complex as we like to think. And so when you can see that part of ourselves more fully and go, I see what's happening here. Let's do something about it instead of, you know, over labeling everything and assuming it's all just permanent, which is quite hopeless state to be in.
48:44Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah. So just to really, just to have a different perspective and understanding that, that there's actually a way through to help people who are dysregulated and have ADHD and can't function as well in life and that there's this is a new understanding that helps us sort of come up with a different approach rather than just saying like just kind of deal with it or whatever we do you know like just make a checklist you know it's not necessarily going to fix it all right how about we sort of end with a few rapid fire questions okay so what are the most overlooked signs of adhd in women overwhelm would be number one it's like if daily life feels so hard.
49:22That's not, we've really normalized a lot of these things as well, even in modern society, not just for ADHD, but for everybody. It's like, well, life's overwhelming. No, that's not normal. That is the sign.
49:34Dr. Mark Hyman:In terms of the signs of dysregulation, what are you looking for? What are the most common signs? Common signs would be physically, shallow breathing, tense muscles, and rushing. If people can really start clocking the rushing, that would be a really good start and it's a little bit more physical so you can kind of access it a little bit easier if you are ever rushing you are dysregulated like really that's interesting yes i tell my clients even if you're late i don't care you in a tizzy panicking is not going to get you there any faster like it's not logical it's reactive that's interesting so what what is the first thing you do when you notice yourself rushing then slow down like you have to interrupt it physically you can't think your way out of it So I had a client who was a therapist.
50:19And so we're learning this stuff. She's like, yeah, yeah, I know about all this stuff. Okay, but I'll look at, you know, see what I got going on this week. She came back. She's like, oh my God, I didn't realize I was like dragging my son home from school every day. Like, come on, let's go. It's like, to what end? We had nowhere to be. Why was I doing that? I'm just in this state of rushing and intensity and urgency constantly. And there's no logic to it half the time. But even when there is logic to it and reasons, it's not going to help. It's only signaling to your system, panic, panic, panic.
50:49So like, for example, with that mom dragging her kid home, it's like, let's just walk calmly, even slowly. You have nowhere to be. This is it. This is your life. Like, let's be here and see what changes.
51:03Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah, that's a very good advice. I mean, I think rushing is, you know, when you feel so overwhelmed, you feel so many things you have to do, you just want to kind of get it all done. And it's just counterproductive, you know. Yes, all that's dysregulation. You're trying to get things over with just because you said that, that's also another sign. Like I'm not doing this. I'm not present in the process and like, like working through this to get it done. I am like, let's get this over with. Come on, come on, come on. That's a sign right there. So if you're, if your partner has, is sort of in this overwhelm, what can you do for them?
51:36Dr. Mark Hyman:Like, how do you, how do you best be a partner? Co-regulation is very powerful. if you can get yourself regulated because ADHD or not, we probably have some dysregulation. You slow down, right? Not adding more to it, not trying to sometimes overly helping can be overwhelming too. Well, why don't we do this? Why don't we just slow it down? Just be kind of a like calm presence to kind of support your partner and having them figure out their own stuff as opposed to, you know, rushing things along or trying to fix. In terms of, um, the, the, the mothers with ADHD, what do they need more of to support them?
52:17Internally, we need more self compassion.
52:22Dr. Mark Hyman:Love yourself. That's a good one. Yeah. Negative self-talk is another sign of dysregulation. Your brain doesn't naturally think that way. It's trying to like motivate you in a negative way. Come on, come on, come on. I'm not doing this good enough. I'm not doing that good enough. We have to get going. Everything's fine. You are doing a great job. Now you might still be like, okay, I'm being self-compassionate and still want to work on some things. We can have both. A lot of people think self-compassion is a cop-out. I actually did a poll on my social media and 80 % of people said self-compassion is a cop-out.
53:00I'm like, no.
53:00Dr. Mark Hyman:That's crazy. No. Why would they say that? Yes, we really have this belief of like, if I am kind to myself, I'm letting myself off the hook. And being mean to myself is motivating. That's not good. Yeah, these belief systems that really continue to keep us in fight or flight. Yeah, it's true. Most of us in this modern world live in fight or flight. And even if we don't have ADHD, definitely all these tools are applicable. How about on the positive side? What are the features of your ADHD brain that you love? I think I think in a unique way, just my perspective. But like I spotted all this stuff because of the brain I have.
53:35Like if I didn't have ADHD, I don't think I would have seen this and been able to connect these dots and explain it in unique ways and see it in unique ways where people are like, oh, I've never thought of it like that before. And I'm just so grateful to be able to contribute a different perspective. Because if we all think the same way, why are we all here? If we all contribute the same insights, that's not very interesting. So I just love giving an alternative, even if I might not be seeing the same thing as other people do all the time.
54:05Dr. Mark Hyman:True enough. Okay, last thing. Finish this sentence. Living well with ADHD is less about and more about. Fill in the blanks. Less about the ADHD itself and more about regulation. There you go. There you go. Well, this is amazing. I think for those listening, I think a lot of people have some variations, particularly in our modern world, it's just all about distractibility. and I think you can have constitutional ADHD or you can have acquired ADHD given how completely fragmented and distracting our society is. And whatever your experience is, learning the tools of self-regulation, of nervous system regulation, of grounding in yourself is so important.
54:45Dr. Mark Hyman:And your model really is very helpful. So I encourage you to check out your book, Jenna. It's The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation, the secret to finding balance, trying to get things done and enjoying. They can get it pretty much everywhere they get books. So Jenna, why don't you just tell us about how people can find you, where they can learn more about your work and find you on social? Absolutely. So my book, this simple guide to ADHD regulation can be purchased wherever books are sold. You can find me at jennifree.com and going to that website. We'll kind of give you all the, all the resources.
55:19I have a podcast. I have obviously the book out and a lot of other free resources people can check out.
55:26Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, Jenna, thanks for your work. Thanks for what you're doing and bringing awareness around this issue. It's something that affects a lot of people. So thank you so much. Thank you. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. You can find me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to The Dr. Hyman Show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Dr. Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more.
55:54Dr. Mark Hyman:Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on The Dr. Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health, where I am Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.
56:26Dr. Mark Hyman:If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness Center at ultrawellnesscenter.com and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the public. So I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible.
56:55Dr. Mark Hyman:Thanks so much again for listening.
From the publisher
ADHD can go unnoticed for decades, especially in women who learn to compensate through perfectionism, overpreparing, and working under pressure. It often isn’t until the demands of work, motherhood, or another major life transition become too much that the underlying struggle comes into view.
In this episode, I sit down with ADHD counselor Jenna Free, author of The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation, to explore what she calls the frantic-crash cycle. She explains how chronic fight-or-flight may intensify ADHD symptoms and why nervous system regulation can make other tools and strategies easier to use.
You’ll learn:
Why women and high achievers can compensate for ADHD for decades before their usual coping strategies stop working
How perfectionism, procrastination, and working under pressure can keep the frantic-crash cycle going
The physical signs of nervous system dysregulation, including shallow breathing, muscle tension, and rushing even when there’s no real urgency
Why calming your body is only the first step in creating lasting change
How you can move away from all-or-nothing behavior and build a more sustainable way of getting things done
A diagnosis can help you understand how your brain works, but it doesn’t have to define what’s possible. By learning to recognize and regulate survival mode, you can create the conditions for your brain to work at its best.
View Show Notes From This Episode
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0:00 Understanding the impact of fight or flight and overview of ADHD discussion
2:01 Functional medicine approach to neurodevelopmental issues
4:38 Rising ADHD diagnoses in adults and coping strategies
9:25 Life transitions and the unmasking of ADHD
13:22 Revisiting fight or flight’s role in ADHD and urgency as a motivator
19:24 Differentiating ADHD from chronic dysregulation
24:03 Nervous system regulation for everyone and ADHD regulation stages
25:46 Physical, thought, and behavioral regulation techniques
41:53 Motherhood, stress, and overlooked signs of ADHD in women
44:28 Gaps in traditional ADHD training and new perspectives for clinicians
48:09 Recognizing dysregulation in daily life and common signs
51:29 Supporting partners and mothers with ADHD
53:16 Positive aspects and living well with ADHD
54:51 Jenna Free’s book, resources, and podcast conclusion