Why Chronic Disease is Exploding w/ Daniel Schmachtenberger

22:22It's so dangerous to keep in the blood. The body will excrete it as fast as it can. If it can't excrete it fast enough, it wants to get it out of the blood.

22:28Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah. It's stored in the tissues. So you do a blood level. Blood level is the wrong thing to do, right? Yeah. If you're not looking at tissue levels, which is what. But tissue biopsies are not a non-invasive thing to do. but this is just important to be like people could say oh this is nonsense i've run the labs and nobody has heavy metal well are you running the right labs very important topic and again there's some theory under it and one of the one of the you know one of the gold standard tests for lead for example is looking at in bone levels through various specialized types of imaging that are used in research and that's what you should be looking at it's sort of like the joke i always tell that you know this guy drops his keys on the street and he's looking for him in his on this light post and his friend's like, what are you doing?

23:06Dr. Mark Hyman:He said, I'm looking for my keys. He said, where did you drop them? He's like, I dropped them down the street. He said, why are you looking here? He said, the light spit are here. And that's what we do in medicine. We tend to do testing that we have available, but not the right testing. And I even remember an article in the New England Journal of Medicine or JAMA was one of those, I was talking about like mercury. And they said, when we check the blood, because that's the easiest thing to do. I'm like, well, that's not where you want to check, you know, to see what's really going on. And so these kids who were living at the cement plant that were severely affected by these.

23:35Dr. Mark Hyman:And by treating them and getting rid of the metals and decreasing their toxic burden, they were able to actually recover and do well.

23:49So everybody, or most people know the story of leaded gasoline, tetraethyl lead being added to gasoline. Most people don't know the story well. There's actually an exceptional video on this made by Veritasium, a YouTube channel online. that describes the tetraethyl lead story. It was an additive for gasoline in the early phases of internal combustion engines that stopped engine knocking, as in not even absolutely crucial. Heaps of other chemistries that could stop engine knocking, as obviously we know because we don't have lead anymore. The early studies that were done on tetraethyl lead, on toxicity, the people did get sick, including the researcher, and the results were hidden.

24:31So it wasn't that we couldn't have possibly known. It was we actually knew, hid it, and brought it out anyways because of the economic interest. And then to think about what adding lead to gasoline means, which is you're aerosolizing it. You're not just putting it in the water or the soil. You're literally atomizing one of the most toxic chemicals that exists and putting it into the air at scale. So, of course, even though it was already known toxic, that was hidden. And then the companies that were producing the tetraethyl lead fought really hard to keep it there and not ban it. And it only finally got banned after the preponderance of how much harm it was causing got proven decades later.

25:10The effects, when you look back in just America, are estimated at a billion points of IQ loss for Americans.

25:16Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah. That's staggering. I just would like people to take in. Make Americans dumber. Yeah. A billion points of IQ loss for a population that was less than 300 million people is a lot of IQ loss. And then there were also studies on increased violence and aggravation that showed that populations that were heavily exposed had something like 4X, the impulse control disorders. Impulse control, skull performance, cognitive deficits. Not to mention the bone issues, the osteoporosis, the cancer, everything else. But if we just look at even the psychocognitive elements, because one of the like, again, one of the bullshit stories that is real politic is like it goes back to the Hobbesian story.

25:57It's like humans are kind of dumb and nasty. That's why we need rule, right? Humans are kind of dumb and nasty. Well, empirically, we made humans dumber and nastier with just the aerosolizing lead. And you're like, who would the humans be if we hadn't done that? So then you say, OK, well, that's an old story because we got rid of lead. Well, no, those effects are enduring. Lead doesn't go away.

26:18Dr. Mark Hyman:It's in the soil still. It's still in most of the pipes. It's in the pipes. Right? We still see it in water. That whole thing that happened in Flint, Michigan. But Albany is worse than Flint, Michigan. Even though we supposedly banned lead and gasoline, it's still used in prop planes. It's still used in certain military and farm equipment and other kinds of things. So we're still using it. It's supposedly banned around the world, but it's still used because it's not enforced in the third world pretty heavily. But then the lead that comes from mining, specifically mining affluent, there's a study I saw in 2019 that showed children under five lost 780 million IQ points just in 2019 just from lead.

26:56Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, it's interesting. It's not just it affects your cognitive function. It affects everything. There was a really pioneering study that I saw in American Journal of Cardiology where they found that anybody with a lead level of over two, and by the way, the lead levels that they thought were harmful were 40 and over. Then it was 20. Then it was 10. Now it's 10. But that was not based on proving that they weren't. That was based on lobbying from the company, from the industries that produced the lead that wanted to not have that much restriction. But still, the lead levels of, quote, normal is 0 to 10, right?

27:31Dr. Mark Hyman:Right. And in this American Journal of Cardiology study, they found that - Excuse me. I was saying the arguing for it being higher was the lobbying side. The proving the toxicity brought it lower, but it's still, as you're mentioning, 1 to 10. Yeah, still 1 to 10. So it's still pretty bad. And what they found was in terms of kids' cognitive function, it was a continuum from zero to 10 still causing a problem. It wasn't like you had no effect. So that's been well proven. But what was really interesting was the American Journal of Cardiology found that if your lead level was over two, two out of 10, which is 39 % of the population of adults and kids, it was a bigger risk factor for stroke and heart attack than having abnormal cholesterol.

28:16Dr. Mark Hyman:Which nobody talks about. So you go to the cardiologist, they're not checking your lead levels. And even if they did, that's only one-fifth of the allowable level. Right. And what's really interesting is that there was this whole movement in the 70s and 80s for chelation therapy, which was thought to be quackery. And the NIH did a$30 million trial called the TAG trial, where they use EDTA, IV, chelation. EDTA specifically removes lead. And they found that it was very actually effective in preventing heart disease and heart attacks. And yet it's not part of standard medicine. Lead increasing heart disease, use it more than cholesterol markers?

28:55Yeah. And how much do people hear about the safe, quote unquote, safe levels of lead compared to cholesterol when it comes to heart disease from the cardiologist, right? Nobody. um but and again we're not just staying within the safe range we're saying not even close to the top of the range yeah right someone would look at and they'd be like oh i'm near the bottom of the range that's awesome like yeah except the range you're like in evolutionary levels it's not even the right scale because we're calling one to ten is actually like one to a million in terms of what should be the right part per billion scale i mean there were moments in human history where

29:26Dr. Mark Hyman:there were volcanoes and there was exposures but not much right not much yeah in terms of like the famous topic people like to talk about right now of what caused the fall of the roman empire there's a whole hypothesis about, well, lead was added to sugar to make a particular kind of sweetness, and lead was actually added as a food additive to alcohol, plus the lead pipes, plus the lead holes. Actually, I did love the story. I have a few patients who are wealthy, and they get fine crystal, or they have wine out of leaded crystal. I remember buying wine glasses once, and I went to the store, and I'm like, these are $5 a piece, and these are$50 a piece.

30:04Dr. Mark Hyman:I'm like, why is this$50 wine glass? He said, well, it's leaded crystal. I'm like, leaded crystal? Why? He says, well, because the lead makes the wine taste sweeter. That's why kiddie paint chips, because it tastes sweet. I was like, wow. And then they have fancy glazed plates, which are from Italy or France, which is the glaze is full of lead. So you can get it in lots of different ways. The fact that in 2019, children under five globally had 780 million points of IQ loss, that should be up there in crimes against humanity as whoever the fuck did this needs – the whole industry needs to be punished.

30:42Because those kids' lives are ruined, massively ruined forever. The civilization that those kids run with less cognitive power as we're moving into an increasingly complex world. And the IQ is obviously just one thing. It's increased heart disease, increased cancer, increased osteoporosis, and increased impulse control disorders, aggression, like their psychiatric components. So sicker, dumber, and meaner. And we're just talking about one compound. One compound.

31:09Dr. Mark Hyman:And you're right. I mean, they looked at the children of the farm workers in California who were exposed to large amounts of pesticides and herbicides. That cohort of kids that they studied lost 41 million IQ points just from exposure to pesticides. It was not just lead. So you add the pesticides up. You add the lead up. You add the mercury up. You add the – there's 350 ,000 chemicals that are in regular industrial use that are regulated, something like that. There's 280 million chemicals in the database of the American Chemical Society. And we're talking about things that were not part of our evolutionary environment, are not part of the makeup.

31:51The thing that I think we have a way of talking about disease in medicine, I got cancer.

31:58Dr. Mark Hyman:I got heart disease, I got diabetes, I got Alzheimer's. You don't get it. It's not like a bug that you catch or a cold. It's a consequence of the environment in which we live. And that's sort of what you're talking about. Because a lot of populations look very old. I mean, the Plains Indians had the highest number of centenarians at the turn of the century of any population. They were hunter-gatherers. And so it wasn't like every hunter-gatherer died at 40. But the last 100 years, we've seen this sort of inversion of the life expectancy curve. It's kind of starting to dip down. And we're starting to see a drop in life expectancy.

32:33Dr. Mark Hyman:So I think we're not taught that these things are fixable. But if you understand the underlying root cause model of medicine and understand how to identify the root causes and figure out also how to create a thriving human and provide those conditions, because right now, as you sort of talk about this anthropogenic disease, this really means we've created an environment in which disease flourishes. It's sort of a disease-causing culture, society, environment, food environment, toxin environment. When you kind of remove those things as best you can, these diseases can reverse. I had a guy who was living in Pittsburgh who was seven years old.

33:09Dr. Mark Hyman:And I didn't know this, but Pittsburgh, they had the steel plants. And they used coal to make steel. And they used the coal ash to cover their fields. And when there's snowy, icy roads, to put them on these snowy, icy roads. And coal ash is full of lead and mercury. And he was extremely mercury toxic and also had other issues. He had insulin resistance. He had gut issues his whole life. So he had a lot of dysbiosis and gut inflammation. He had methylation issues, B vitamin problems. He had a whole series of things. It wasn't just one thing. But you add all that together, plus his ApoE double four status, which puts him at risk.

33:48And he was presenting with Alzheimer's.

33:53Dr. Mark Hyman:And yet, by a very aggressive detoxification program, by getting the metals out of his system, by chelation, which is heresy in medicine, And by giving him methylating support, optimizing his gut function, fixing his insulin resistance, he reversed his cognitive decline. And he was actually able to improve his mental status and go back to work, which was, again, something you just never see. I mean, who's seen a survivor of Alzheimer's? Well, I know that you have for a long time known Dale Bredesen and his work in the space. And I think you are friends with someone I'm good friends with, Dr. Heather Sanderson, who wrote the book recently, Reversing Alzheimer's.

34:30And I think that was a number one New York Times bestseller for a while. And that particular study that she did there was an inpatient using a Bredesen-like protocol that was reversing the MOCA scores in 70 % of the people that went in within six months with pretty basic stuff, like largely diet, lifestyle, and a little bit of functional medicine.

34:50Dr. Mark Hyman:And the MOCA score is a sort of a cognitive assessment that's easy to do, and it's pretty predictive of where you are in the trajectory of memory loss and dementia. Now, this is another one, if you look at Alzheimer's historically versus now, that is really a disease of modernity. Do you want to say anything about it? I mean, Alzheimer's did diagnose this way back when, in the turn of the century with this patient he had. But the rise in dementia is staggering, and it's one of the most costly conditions for humanity, not because of the direct medical care, but because of the long-term care that they need, because of the loss of the ability to work for their caregivers, their family members.

35:28Dr. Mark Hyman:I've seen a dramatic increase in dementia and cognitive decline. And it's sort of paralleled the rest of the chronic diseases that we're seeing increasing. And people say, oh, we're winning the war on heart disease. I mean, nonsense. We're seeing less deaths because we have better advanced medical treatments, like bypasses and stents and thrombolytics and blood clot dissolvers. But we are seeing more and more people getting heart disease, more and more people getting cancer more and more people getting diabetes more and more people getting dementia so despite the fact that we're spending trillions of dollars on healthcare we're not getting much for our money and this is kind of shocking this is why people need to understand statistical warfare as part of information warfare is that you can cherry pick your stats and you can lie with facts you can mislead with facts you can say less people are dying and what you're alluding to is the issues getting better as opposed to there was even one case in which the stats were used that less people were dying of gun violence and they were suggesting in that the gun violence went down gun violence that went up just emergency care so people didn't die that's right and so it's entirely possible just to speak to the larger political environment and this is a bipartisan kind of universal marketing driven issue is people who are pushing a narrative at scale usually have a motive to push the narrative political motive a capital motive or something Right.

36:50And so you can take the whole story, just take parts of it, and you can have facts that make it through the most rigorous fact checker that are true, but are still misleading.

37:00Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, what Mark Twain said, he said there's liars, there's damn liars, and there's statisticians. Yes. As you're mentioning, winning the war on heart disease, what you're actually seeing is the rates of heart disease are increasing. And so this is like this mortality, morbidity tradeoff, right? Which is, oh no, people are living longer. And recently there's been a downturn in living longer, but that kind of doesn't matter if the latter part of their life is on polypharmacy, is on a huge amount of meds with decreasing quality of life and only being kept alive kind of artificially. Like if someone gets off their meds, they die.

37:37That's kind of like they're on life support.

37:39Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah, exactly. Which speaks to quality of life. I think a lot of people don't understand the mortality, morbidity tradeoff and the stats that are cherry picked to say longevity is going up or heart disease is going down, what it's not indicating. Is there more on that you would say? Yeah. I mean, I think we're losing the battle on disease. We're spending more and more. I mean, we spend twice that of any other nation, often three, four, five times as much. We're 48th in life expectancy and going down. A lot of our statistics are worse than most other countries. That's just worth saying again. 48th in life expectancy.

38:1548th.

38:15Dr. Mark Hyman:I think we're going down. It's getting worse. And that's crazy. With a$5 trillion a year healthcare budget. Yeah. We're, I think, 30th among the top developed nations in healthcare metrics like infant mortality. And we're spending huge amounts. I think 40 % of people who are over 65 take five or more medications a day. 20 % take 10 or more medications. Some of which are for the side effects of the other meds. Yeah. 81 % of Americans are on at least one medication. So is this making us healthier? I don't think so. I mean, it's mitigating symptoms sometimes. Maybe it addresses issues sometimes. But we know that our healthcare system itself is the third leading cause of death through prescribed drugs given for the right reason at the right dose for the right patient, not mistakes.

39:10Dr. Mark Hyman:Medical errors is another huge category. But, I mean, the - Let's put those together because when Ralph Nader was kind of popularizing this topic, some of the issues have gotten better on iatrogenesis. But if you take iatrogenesis to mean diseases that come from interaction with the healthcare system writ large, the broadest definition. So then it includes, as you mentioned, prescriptions that are rightly given, prescriptions that are wrongly given in allergic reactions to meds and drug interactions and whatever, surgeries, infections you get well in the hospital, et cetera. If you add those up, many people add those up and it's the number one cause of death of Americans in the country.

39:48Dr. Mark Hyman:Basically, we shut down all the doctors and hospitals and got rid of all the drugs. We do better. We're not saying that because, of course, we don't want to do statistical warfare because they're also saving lives, right? But we can say, damn, we should be able to do better on that side. And we can, right? Like you have plenty of clinical cases where you're saving more lives and causing much less iatrogenesis. And it actually costs less money when you factor all the matriculated things. There's obviously absence of acute symptomology does not equal a good definition of health because we all know cases where someone went to the doctor for a routine checkup and they find out that they have cancer and not that long to live and that cancer has been developing for a long time and as you're mentioning with prediabetes a long time before the acute diagnosis of now you have diabetes and you have to take a med for it you were in metabolic syndrome and a long time before the autoimmune disease that produces enough symptomology you had inflammatory markers that you could see like how many years ahead can you see signs of decades exactly now if you see it decades ahead and you haven't had a humongous amount of tissue damage, you can do stuff about it.

40:49By the time you've got to advance tissue damage, it's a lot harder, right? You can still do stuff about it, which is amazing. And your clinic will attest to that. But I mean, in med school, there's this stages of disease, which is you start with health is all the homeostatic systems and homeostasis is kind of a silly term because it's not stasis, right? So the homeodynamics. So you have all these homeodynamic systems in the body that are responding to various stressors and the level they're at matters less than their responsive capacity, right? You want to be able to respond to hot and cold and to pathogens and whatever well.

41:21So you've got homeostasis or homeodynamics. Then you've got deviation from homeodynamics. Something comes, it takes you out of range and you don't respond properly. What is that something, right? We'll get back to that. If that doesn't come back into range, if it comes back, right, you're still healthy. If it doesn't come back in, then you have pathophysiology, right? The physiology is operating differently as a result of that. If you keep operating differently for a long time, you'll start to get pathomorphology. The structures will start to change. And oftentimes it's not until after that that the symptoms occur.

41:52And that's when you go and you get the diagnosis. And you've been in a very advanced development of illness that whole time. So obviously you don't want to wait till symptoms. And most people are walking around with a lot of symptoms, which means actually pretty advanced disease relative to what good health would be. And so obviously the an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure thing.

42:09Dr. Mark Hyman:I did a podcast recently with someone who's studying this compound that comes from pomegranates and walnuts and berries called lagutanins that gets converted in the gut through the microbiome to a compound called your lithon A that helps recycle old mitochondria. And there's not very many things to do that. So maybe we've kind of evolved with these plants to help us do our body's work. And then there's the right balance of hormones. There can be hormonal deficiency. There can be deficiencies of light and circadian rhythm and clean water and clean air, which are all things we need. And movement, exercise, rest.

42:50Dr. Mark Hyman:So it could be like parasympathetic activities like meditation that restores our nervous system's function, sleep, adequate sleep, connection, love, meaning, purpose. These are all belonging. These are all things that we need. And even something as obvious as belonging, if you're lonely, it's like smoking two packs of cigarettes a day in terms of your risk. So you kind of go through that whole list and you can kind of see where people are. And some of those things are just a consequence of our modern world, like the increasing isolation, lack of connections, lack of belonging, lack of being part of a tribe.

43:23Dr. Mark Hyman:And it maybe is why we see such an increase in tribalism and divisiveness in society because people are wanting to be part of something even if it's bad. like a gang, right? Or it could be AA or it could be Weight Watchers. It's all still a club. So I think we have this kind of interesting moment where we're starting to kind of map out what these things are that impair human resilience and function. And that's really why we call it functional medicine. I think everything you're saying is kind of intuitive if someone is not excessively indoctrinated in an alternate thought process and makes sense.

43:54But I want to formalize it a little bit. The first thing is that you're mentioning disease having many causes, and that's in distinction to the idea that it has no cause. It's just whatever we don't understand. Just random acts of the universe. Yes. Or single cause, right? In which a single molecule for a single molecular target would make sense.

44:12Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah. You eat saturated fat, you get high LDL cholesterol, you get heart disease. It ain't that simple. Complex causation versus simple causation is a major part of the story, right? And simple causation is usually immediate, right? You're exposed to something, a pathogen, a poison, you're starving, and a disease that correlates to it exactly starts to happen immediately. Delayed causation, as you mentioned, certain diseases, you can find early signs that we're moving in that direction in utero, or even the predispositions in the mother's body that are going to affect the developmental environment of the baby.

44:45So acute versus kind of chronic is a major part that we want to make a distinction. The other is single cause versus multifactorial. Because you're mentioning this person's dementia was a whole suite of toxins, lead and mercury and whatever, and a whole suite of deficiencies and a whole suite of maybe subclinical infections and maybe behavioral patterns and maybe psychological patterns.

45:10Dr. Mark Hyman:I'd be very curious of what you think about this because the entire medical research paradigm has been set up for drug discovery. It's the randomized, double-blind, same-o-controlled trial. I want to go there. I want to get to reductionist medicine. But before we go there, you already explained kind of subacute toxicity, but subacute infection you didn't get into yet. Most people like dysentery is very obvious, but there are things where there is a chronic GI infection that isn't dysentery. Can you talk about that for a little bit? Yeah. I think we think of infections as something that come and go, but the truth is, and AIDS, I grew up in the era of AIDS.

45:44Dr. Mark Hyman:I went to medical school in that era. I did residency at UCSF, which was the epicenter of the AIDS epidemic with the gay community there. And it was the number one admitting diagnosis to the hospital where I trained in my residency. Nobody died of HIV infection. People died of all the other bugs that happened to live in us and on us that get unleashed when your immune system isn't working. So whether it's pneumocystis infection of your lungs or cytomegalovirus, which is a common virus that we all carry, like people have herpes. and people know this, right? You have herpes and you get a cold sore when it's - People know it for oral herpes or genital herpes, but they don't know there are more kinds of herpes.

46:25Dr. Mark Hyman:No, there's a lot of kinds of herpes. CMV is herpes, FCV is herpes. There's just herpes, the whole family of viruses. But people know, oh, I have herpes, which means when I'm stressed or when it's cold out or when I'm tired or when I get a cold, I get a cold sore. That, people understand that there's this latent infection in their body, but there's so many of those. And they're often hidden and they're latent and they're maybe marginally symptomatic or not symptomatic. Even tick infections can cause all sorts of issues and be latent and then they emerge. Or even with COVID, we're now seeing these, when we're seeing replicating COVID viruses in people who've recovered months or years later in their bodies that are producing ongoing effects that lead to long COVID and persistent disease.

47:13So just so people have a sense, what percentage of people have CMB? What percentage of people have Epstein-Barr? What percentage of people have some strains of HPV that are part of pathogenic predisposition?

47:25Dr. Mark Hyman:It's a lot. I mean, I would say everybody's walking around with something, probably. If you look, most people have some Epstein-Barr that's kind of hanging around that can emerge and be problematic. Probably half the population has CMB. You know, it's a lot of people. There was a study I found interesting that was looking at removed prostate cancers that were removed for cancer and they were biopsied and doing virum assessment on it and found that the combination of EBV and HPV was present in the vast majority of them. Yeah. And so that's not one or the other. It was actually the combination. And obviously, we know HPV causing cervical cancer, causing throat cancer.

48:06That's kind of new, though, right? Yeah. That people really understand that. and H. pylori causing stomach cancer and obviously like EBV causing chronic fatigue, but it's pretty reductionist to say EBV causes chronic fatigue. There are people who have EBV who get other diseases, MS or something. There are people who have EBV who never get chronic fatigue and there are people who have chronic fatigue who have a load of other viruses or pathogens that aren't EBV.

48:29Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah, we talk about like the infections can cause a myriad of problems. Like herpes can lead to increased risk for Alzheimer's, which, you know, it doesn't just call the cold sore, but maybe something more serious. And that doesn't mean all Alzheimer's is caused by bacteria. But, you know, look at Rudy Tanzi's work, and there, who's an Alzheimer's researcher, and he talks about how there's, when they do brain bobs, he's finding all these bugs in the brain from the microbiome, from viruses, from other bacteria, that may be causing an irritation that leads to the deposition of the amyloid plaque that everybody sees on the microscope, but is only a secondary response to some other triggering factor.

49:09Dr. Mark Hyman:That if you dealt with that triggering factor, you might not actually get Alzheimer's. So this is something that Rudy Tansy's work is good at, Bredesen's work is good at, is Alzheimer's doesn't want to seize. Yeah. Right? Some people have described it as type 2 diabetes of the brain. Some people as rheumatoid arthritis of the brain. Some people as infection of the brain. These are all true different times, which means different treatments. so if you hear that somebody has rheumatoid arthritis or ms or alzheimer's you don't instantly know what you're going to do no i don't i don't i know i know there's a there's a group of things that i'm gonna look at yes like i'm gonna look at things that piss off the immune system right toxins allergens microbes stress poor diet right all the deficiencies of certain things like vitamin d we know is increasing risk for ms because it's important in neurologic function and immune function.

49:57Dr. Mark Hyman:So I think we kind of have to come to terms with this framework of multifactorial causes and multimodal treatments. And we just have failed to be imaginative in how we do research. I think you're saying two things at once that are important. One is the disease doesn't have one cause. But you're saying think about causal stuff, but the disease doesn't have one cause. So it could seem overwhelming, like what? It's just all these things. Rather than just labeling disease and then treating the label with a drug, we call it the name it blame entertainment system. We name the disease and we blame the name for the problem and then we tame it with the drug.

50:35Dr. Mark Hyman:So we say, oh, you're hopeless and helpless and sad and depressed and I know what's wrong with you. You have depression. Well, no, that's just the name we give to people who share those symptoms. It's not the cause of those symptoms. It could be a myriad of things from what you're eating, your microbiome, from nutritional deficiencies like vitamin D or folate or excess of toxins like heavy metals or mercury or gluten that create plane inflammation. So there's a lot of reasons why you can have any particular disease. And we have it all wrong. And I think it's a real shift. It's a real shift in thinking.

51:05Dr. Mark Hyman:So medicine needs to move from this name it and blame it process to what we call thinking and linking, where we start the thinking process once we make the diagnosis. We start to try to create an understanding of what are the patterns in the data, what are the story that's being told? How do you take a deeper diagnostic history? How do you do deeper diagnostic laboratory testing and work to kind of see what's at the root cause of everything? And by peeling back that layer, you can start to see emerge a picture of a chronic disease epidemic that it is rooted in things that are caused by, I would say, man.

51:40Dr. Mark Hyman:And I think that's something, in a way, is good news because it means we can have agency over it. And it's not something that just falls from the sky, that hits us on the head, that we get struck with some illness. it's actually now something we understand what it's about. It's not just better diagnosis. Trust me, like the autism epidemic is an example. We went from 1 in 10 ,000 when I was born to 1 in 130. Even if 50 % is better diagnostic or 75 % is better diagnostic criteria, still something's going on. I think it's worth just going into this a little bit because vitamin D deficiency in terms of acute causation is rickets.

52:13And not many people have rickets. But there's a pretty big level between you have rickets and you have optimal levels. And the same is true for vitamin C and scurvy or beriberi or whatever. The idea that deficiency means you don't have an acute disease that is killing you in a fast way from it, but that as soon as you're above that, we're fine, as opposed to what are optimal levels. Would you speak to that a little bit in terms of also what you find in your practice and what you find when you take someone above rickets? Treat them and treat them and they get better.

52:43Dr. Mark Hyman:I think this is just a really important idea that medicine is trying to catch up with. you know we used to talk about having type 2 diabetes and then we said wait wait there's pre-diabetes and then we talked about having hypertension or high blood pressure now there's pre-hypertension and we say oh you have an autoimmune disease oh now there's pre-autoimmune disease and the reason it's pre-anything is because we're understanding there's consequences even at levels we thought were quote normal and so this idea of disease being an on or off phenomena is wrong. It's a continuum from mild biochemical imbalances, which are barely detectable, which we might be able to now screen for with metabolomic testing and proteomic testing and, you know, more subtle things that we can measure to sort of pre-symptomatic to symptomatic disease symptoms to finally full-blown disease and death.

53:39Dr. Mark Hyman:And so there's a whole long continuum that can start in utero or even with your mother's health before she was born that impacts your health through epigenetics and through the intrauterine experience and through early childhood influences and all those things you can start to map out if you listen carefully to somebody's story about what's happening early and pick these things up. And so the fact that we have these sort of arbitrary cutoffs for blood sugar, blood pressure, vitamin D, folic acid, I mean, function health which is a company i talked to you about that it allows people access to comprehensive lab testing and have their own personal health data set you know the reference ranges there are ridiculous for some of the things that they have like homocysteine which is a measure of your b vitamin status very important in methylation and genetic control neurotransmitter function detoxification mood i mean a lot of things their cutoff level is like i think 15 or 16 or something and any level over 14 according to the literature increase your risk of dementia by 50%.

54:38Dr. Mark Hyman:The optimal level should be six to eight. Same thing with insulin. I think we see insulin levels being reported as normal, anything up to 16 or 18. That's because we have a sick population. And the way we determine what's, quote, normal is basically on a bell curve in a population. So if the bell curve is shifted to the right or the left because people are sick, you're picking up what's normal in the population, not what's optimal. Because you know the name of the disease, it doesn't mean you know what's wrong with that person. And the name of the disease, that person might be missing some of the symptoms that usually go.

55:13They might be missing some of the biomarkers. They might have other biomarkers. They might have other symptoms. We just said there's enough of a cluster to meet the diagnostic threshold for insurance to cover it. That's right. But this person, this unique person who we say has rheumatoid arthritis and this other person we say has rheumatoid arthritis don't have the same presentation. They don't have the same medical history, but they don't have the same presentation, right? you run enough labs they have totally different stuff going on in their blood and they have different symptomology. So what does rheumatoid arthritis mean?

55:39Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah it's just the name we give to a group of people who share certain criteria that have been established that create the diagnosis based on symptoms, morning stiffness, certain joint pattern of inflammation, certain lab tests but it doesn't tell you anything about why. It could be a the intermediate histolytica parasite that causes it, or it could be gluten that causes it, or - But it's almost never one of those, right? Right. No, it's usually not, right. It's usually not. We were just chatting earlier before the podcast, and I remember this book I read when I was in college by Ivan Illich called Medical Nemesis.

56:13Dr. Mark Hyman:And it really influenced me because it talked about the failure of our healthcare system back then, and talked about this idea of iatros, which means physician, and genesis means his origin. So the origin of disease being caused by the physician. That's something that I think is sort of underappreciated by most people. Doctors don't intentionally cause people to be ill. They're not bad people. They're well-intentioned. They're trying the right thing, but they're trained in the wrong paradigm. This is not actually a critique of doctors. It's not even a critique of hospitals. It's a critique of some systemic mistakes that affect what the doctors are even allowed to do.

56:46Sometimes the doctors are really upset about it, and it affects It's how the doctors are trained. And so the critiques we're giving are systemic. Even pretty late stage things like heart failure and Alzheimer's and autism. Will you tell a couple, just so we can wrap it together, I know you have another place, but tell like a couple stories about that, of things that people used to think were totally unreversible and most people still do.

57:07Dr. Mark Hyman:I mean, in medical school and throughout my medical training and even in continuing medical education and postgraduate training where you go CME courses, the orthodoxy is pretty rigid about certain beliefs. If you have heart failure, it doesn't go backwards. You can't improve it. If you have dementia, you can't reverse it. If you have type 2 diabetes, it's not reversible. You can manage chronic diseases, which is great for the medical industrial complex because it provides the ability to have a pharmaceutically driven healthcare system that makes huge amounts of profit off of long-term chronic use of medication.

57:43Dr. Mark Hyman:What I've seen is surprisingly, When you apply these principles of creating health, which is what functional medicine is, it's not about treating disease. It's trying to understand what is health, what are the deviations from health, and how do we measure those dysfunctions and the lack of resilience and balance and function in the body and kind of tweak things to correct it. You can actually see reversal of these diseases, complete remission, reversal of type 2 diabetes. That's easy. That's an easy one. And there's now that's sort of - But that's a humongous deal because like, what is the curve of type 2 diabetes from when you were born to now?

58:16How many upstream diseases does that contribute to? And how many people, how many doctors treat it like it's reversible?

58:22Dr. Mark Hyman:It's the thing that's causing everything. So the phenomenon of insulin resistance, which underlies type 2 diabetes, is causing dementia. For example, your risk of dementia is four times higher if you have type 2 diabetes. Your risk of heart attacks is dramatically higher. risk of cancers, many of the most common cancers, breast, pancreatic, ovarian cancer, colon cancer, pancreatic cancer, these are diseases of insulin resistance. And to say all those diseases are largely, not perfectly, but largely preventable with some pretty basic stuff. Yeah. And oftentimes even reversible is a really important thing everybody should know and start to update on.

58:56Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah, I mean they're even taking some, I mean I've talked to Siddhartha Mukherjee about this, they're doing studies of stage four pancreatic cancer using ketogenic diets and seeing remissions in some of these patients, which is almost like heresy in medicine. For medicine, there are no laws. You say, well, evolution, that's a kind of a law. Okay, well, that's one. But how does that apply to human health? What are the laws of biology when it comes to human health? Medicine really hasn't described those. Pierre Laplace, who was an incredible scientist back in the, I don't know, 17th century, he had Laplace's law and all that, law of physics.

59:33Dr. Mark Hyman:but he talked about how you can have a great number of observed phenomena from a small number of general laws. And medicine has failed to produce those laws. So instead of having like a few principles that explain everything, we get more and more granular about the diseases we describe. For example, the diagnostic manual for diseases is called ICD-10, the International Classification of Disease, Volume 10 or Version 10. And there's 155 ,000 diseases. It's gone up from 12 ,000. You used to have things there like visitation from God. We got rid of those. But you know, it's basically descriptive.

1:00:09Dr. Mark Hyman:It's phenomenological. It's based on symptoms, not on our understanding of the disease or the pathogenesis of the disease. And so functional medicine, I think, is the first attempt to create a set of principles, of laws. And the E equals MC squared that explains what you're asking, which is what is anthropogenic disease, are you suffering from exposure too much of something that your body doesn't like, that doesn't agree with you? Or are you lacking certain things that your body needs to thrive and be resilient? And so for me, being a functional medicine doctor is just a detective work for figuring out what you have too much of or too little of.

1:00:46Dr. Mark Hyman:And it's not just one thing. It's often many things. So you can't just treat one thing, which is what we learned in medical school, just Occam's razor, just single disease, single drug. That's the best practice of medicine. and that's your gold standard. That's what you should shoot for. And that's just unfortunately not how the body works. It's a complex dynamic system and it's infinitely unknowable. But you can actually determine from these basic laws and principles how to treat disease, even if you've never seen it before. In The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch, he talks about this idea that following these basic principles, you can treat diseases and be successful, even if you've never seen them.

1:01:26Dr. Mark Hyman:So often people say, well, have you treated this? Have you treated that? Have you fixed this or that? I'm like, maybe not. I've seen that. I've never seen it, but I know what to do. I know how to get to the bottom of this problem. And so my job is to go through that list. And it's a really short list. And maybe you can add to it. But it's toxins. And these can be environmental toxins, all the petrochemical-based toxins, like the forever chemicals or pesticides, phthalates, PCBs, dioxin, flame retardants. The list goes on. It could be elemental toxins, like heavy metals, mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium.

1:01:54Dr. Mark Hyman:and they're buried in the earth and we've excavated them and industrialized different processes that liberate these things, like coal burning is a great one. They can be biological toxins, right? If your liver or kidneys aren't working, you're going to be pretty sick and die pretty quick. And then there's allergens, which can be both environmental allergens, food allergens. Toxins can also be things like mycotoxins and mold toxins, which I put in that category, although it can also be an allergen. So some of the things cross over. It can be, in that allergen category, it can be sensitivities or imbalance, like things that you might not think of as a true allergy, like we'll call an IgE allergy, which would be a food sensitivity, which is like gluten, for example.

1:02:41Dr. Mark Hyman:And then there's microbes. So it could be infections that are persistent, like COVID or Epstein-Barr or CMB, which kind of burden your immune system and lead to all kinds of symptoms, or it could be a more subclinical but debilitating conditions like tick infections, or it could be an acute infection. Like, you know, I had an abscess recently in my back. That was an acute infection that almost killed me. So it can be microbiome. So imbalances or dysfunction in your microbiome, which we're all suffering from in modern society as a core driver of disease. And it can be stress as a physical stress or psychological stress.

1:03:17Dr. Mark Hyman:And that creates physiological change in your body. Or it can be a poor diet. This nutrient deficiency that is part of the detox processes compounds on that. So the key is you get a compounding effect of a lot of things that are – some of them happened a year ago. The thing that might have caused it, seemed to have caused it, was actually just a trigger. It was the last step of a causal cascade that took somebody over the threshold. Yeah, the straw that broke the camel's back, yeah. Yeah. So I think these concepts of delayed causation as opposed to immediate causation, multifactorial as opposed to single factor, sub-acute issues, things that cause no symptomology immediately, but are part of a compounding effect.

1:03:56Also, unique pathoideology, right? That two people's MS or two people's rheumatoid arthritis are not the same disease. Not the same, yeah. But I would say you can have one cause that

1:04:08Dr. Mark Hyman:creates many diseases like mercury or gluten, and you can have one disease that has many causes. Yes. I think just maybe speak to that a tiny bit more in terms of when people think cause and effect, there is a reductionist thing where they think billiard ball, one thing caused one effect immediately. And yet when you're talking about a complex organizational system where a circuit board or a computer or a car, you can take a part out, put another part back in, upgraded. It didn't grow. It's not self-organizing. It was built. And we apply that methodology from clocks to computers to something that grew and self-organized where each – there's no such thing as a lung outside of a body or a liver outside of a body, right?

1:04:50So when you try to separate gastroenterology and oncology and neurology, you get still a bunch of diseases that make no sense. Yeah, it is.

1:04:58Dr. Mark Hyman:It's such a failure of imagination and thinking that we have these specialties in medicine and we divided up the body into these organs and parts, which is still how we teach medical students. My daughter just finished medical school and it's just so antiquated. And there's emerging from the scientific community, not necessarily the medical community, but I would say the scientific community, this emerging paradigm of multi-causality and multi-modal treatments. In other words, there's multifactorial causes, many causes for any condition, and there's multi-modal treatments that are needed, not just one thing.

1:05:36Dr. Mark Hyman:And the body is seen to be a network and a web where everything is inextricably tied to everything else, and you can't separate all these things out, but you can start to understand how they influence each other and are dynamically acting together to create dysfunction in the body and disease. You were mentioning what does it mean in another podcast to eat not ultra hybridized, what's the term? Ultra processed foods. Ultra processed food, yeah. One of the people who I got to study with when I was young that influenced me the most was Dr. Everett's Loomis, Healing for Everyone. I don't know if you ever came across.

1:06:07He was one of the other early naturopaths, Dr. Christopher and those guys. My family had actually had some quote unquote incurable illnesses that got help through alternative processes that kind of got us in that path. And we actually got to go live with that guy, Dr. Loomis on his healing clinic when I was a kid. And I got to see people coming in in wheelchairs and leaving non-wheelchairs, just having really radical kind of change. And it was very old school. It was kind of Ann Wigmore like stuff. And, but it was real interesting to hear he was also a medical doctor, but like he was 85 by the time I met him and he had boiled it down to a very simple thing.

1:06:45And he's like, number one principle nutrition is eat as close to that living ecosystem as you can. Number two is pay subtle attention to how the foods feel in your body. Everything else, whatever. And like nightshades and ratios of macronutrients and whatever. Yeah, I agree. So he had these gardens, these kind of huge gardens and orchards. And he told people, go pick the food you feel called to and eat it right there. Don't even just stand outside with your feet in the dirt and eat it. And that's it. That's your diet while you're here. It's an inpatient thing. And it was amazing how much people got better if the only food they could eat was standing by the tree or the plant that they picked it off of while they ate it.

1:07:32And of course, he emphasized heirloom species and good soil and no pesticides, herbicides.

1:07:38Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, you know, there's a guy who kind of looks like you a little bit with the beard. His name's Fred Provenza. He's someone I got to know recently who's a professor for years at Utah State University and studied rangeland ecology and the relationship between plants and the soil and animals and humans. And basically, he wrote a book called Nourishment, What Animals Can Teach Us About Rediscovering our nutritional wisdom. And he basically said that animals intuitively know what to eat when to keep themselves healthy. So they forage on some major food crops, but then they'll forage if they left their own devices and there's enough variety of wild plants around on different plants that have different medicinal properties or different nutrients.

1:08:20Dr. Mark Hyman:And in the book, he talked about this study that was done, I think in the 20s in an orphanage in Canada, where they took kids who who really hadn't been exposed to a lot of whatever, junk food or American diet. And they gave them weird stuff like brain and organs and all kinds of weird food that we wouldn't think would be things we'd wanna eat, or that kids would wanna eat. And these kids actually were eating completely in harmony with what their bodies needed, and seeking out those foods and nutrients in the food that they needed, and were far healthier than kids were control group that were fed a regular diet.

1:08:55Dr. Mark Hyman:And I was like, that's fascinating, that humans have lost their ability to understand their sort of nutritional wisdom and to understand how things affect us. I mean, I want to add one thing and then we'll do good notes to leave on. You know what a racket is, right? Like a protection racket. Yeah, a racketeer. Let's say I've got a protection racket where I'm the mob and you're doing business in my turf. So I have some guys go rough you up and then you're scared of those guys and there's not enough law enforcement here. Then I have some other guys say, hey, we can protect you, but you're going to have to pay a certain amount every week, right?

1:09:26But they're from the same group. That's a racket, right? Which is you're manufacturing the demand and then offering the supply. If you make a food system that creates addiction so that people need to keep getting more of it, but then it also makes them need medicine that they wouldn't need otherwise that is profitable, where the side effects of the medicine make them need other medicines, that's a systemic racket.

1:09:45Dr. Mark Hyman:It is a racket, for sure. It's like bear. They bought Monsanto, which makes glyphosate, which causes lymphoma, and then they make the drugs to treat the lymphoma. That's a racket. So that's a direct racket if it's the same company. If they're separate companies that are just all owned by the major private equity or whatever, it's a systemic racket. Think about just from a logical perspective, I'm trying to solve a problem. First thing I want to ask is, did we always have that problem? No, no, no. It's a new problem. Oh, when we didn't have it, what was happening then? Let's reverse something. The first thing should be, if it's a new problem that was caused by something, reverse the cause.

1:10:18How often in medicine do we do that? Anything that looks like a racket should be investigated. Anything that looks like, oh, there's a problem, let's not look at what the root causes were. Let's not look at when we didn't have it. Let's say that we got this problem forever now and we can't possibly not have it when we didn't have it for most of human history. Then let's come up with a new thing that we can make money on that will then itself cause new problems, that we will also cause a new solution for, that will cause new problems. That is a systemic, exponentially escalating racket. This is not a good method of problem solving.

1:10:48This is solving problems in a way that doesn't solve the cause, that symptomatically addresses it, and makes worse problems in the process. Let's start actually trying to solve problems. What is the cause? How do we undo the cause?

1:10:58Dr. Mark Hyman:And how do we get people incentivized to do that? Because right now everything is flipped. Everyone is actually incentivized if they pay attention to, we're talking about your own health. Yes, that's abstract. I mean, like the guy who's running Coca-Cola or Bayer is not necessarily thinking about these things. I remember talking to someone who's the CEO of Pepsi once, and they said they were thinking about categorizing it as an entertainment company because they're like, we know this is not food. This is something people do for fun. And it was like, Jesus, what good does this thing do? Well, it causes diabetes and increases likelihood for Alzheimer's and everybody.

1:11:32But what real good does it do? Well, it causes addiction. The world would be better if that company didn't exist. Any company where the world would be better if it didn't exist, we should figure out how to have it not exist.

1:11:43Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah. The number of companies that fit in that category are high. Yeah, that's the problem. Now, derealization. Derealization is this very serious thing that happens when someone goes through a severe trauma where like nothing feels real. I would say almost everybody I know is in some degree of derealization. And here's how I can tell. If I tell somebody something about it doesn't matter what it is, whether it's about health care or whether it's about the increasing likelihood towards World War III or AI, it doesn't matter what it is. the environment, their tomorrow will be identical. They cannot be moved by real information about the real world they're in.

1:12:19They are derealized. The real world does not matter to them. And they're like, no new information could change my life. Well, you're being a doomer. Wait, no, the Mongols are coming. If the Mongols are coming, do you want to know? Oh, I can't do anything. Did you try?

1:12:33Dr. Mark Hyman:Most people don't. They're just so - So I want to just say, let's break the out of ubiquitous derealization and learned helplessness and say problems that didn't used to exist that we caused, we can't solve. Your own health and your parents and your children are an incentive. But you just have to act like reality is real and reality matters and your life matters. As opposed to the nihilism of like, I can't do anything. I've already given up on my life mattering. It's hard. And the problem is that so many people are not just derealized because of the trauma, the psychological trauma of our society, but also the way in which our diet and lifestyle environment affects our cognitive function and brain and mood.

1:13:11Dr. Mark Hyman:So it's sort of a double problem because you're sort of stuck. If you look at the American Revolution and the condition of the people who were involved in the American Revolution, one, they were doing labor jobs. Using a pitchfork all day translates to a much hardier body that can do rebellion and whatever. But also they weren't obese. They weren't on opiates and benzos and they didn't doom scroll. I have found that I don't care how outraged someone is or how horrified or how depressed, that emotion will not make it through 15 minutes of doom scrolling. They will actually forget they ever heard the thing.

1:13:46They'll forget all the emotion. Because in that 15 minutes, I see something that makes me excited and something that makes me feel left out and something that makes me feel belonging and something that makes me horny and something that makes me scared and something that makes me outraged and something that's kind of funny. And I just flushed my entire system of continuity. Now, I can go back to my life exactly the way it was. A small number of people ensure that they don't do that so they can actually work on controlling things at scale. And everybody else lets them.

1:14:10Dr. Mark Hyman:Well, how do we have more agency? That's it. That's what you're talking about. It's creating a society where people feel agency and that their actions, that their thoughts, that their voice matters. So find all the things that damage your agency and get them out of your life. Take the social media apps off your phone. Even if you're going to still have it, have to do it on the computer. Don't have it in your goddamn pocket all the time. Just take them off your phone. If you're on psych meds, go to a Cleveland clinic. Go to an integrative doc who can see if maybe there's a better solution for you.

1:14:40I'm not telling people get off their psych meds. I'm saying go talk to a doctor. There's ways to do it. Talk to someone who knows other possibilities. Because you're not going to be self-regulating or think well or whatever while you're intentionally altering your neurochemistry. Now, I will say I know people high up in most of the major news companies. They are not news. Not on the right, not on the left.

1:15:02Dr. Mark Hyman:It's not news. No, it's not news. Propaganda. Yes. It is information war. I can criticize the most erudite journals because, well, they'll lie with facts, but they cherry pick their facts. They lay cough frame them in a particular way. So you either call it an illegal alien or an undocumented migrant. It means the exact same thing, but you have a totally different emotional valence. You cherry pick your facts and you say this thing is getting better when it's actually getting worse, but you're treating the symptoms or whatever it is. Who puts narratives out there? Again, it takes a lot of money to fund research.

1:15:29It takes a lot of money to put a narrative out there. Typically, capital streams associated with goals that support those capital streams or the political institutions and agendas that support the capital streams put out narratives that support what they do. So you should understand, whenever you're watching a piece of news or reading something, what you should be thinking about is this tells me what some people want other people to believe.

1:15:50Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah, not what's actually true. Someone gave me a link to a website, I forget what it's called, which basically had the same news item, but reported from the right and the left and then the middle. And it was totally different stories. To just realize you cannot let someone spoon feed you your narrative on what is true. Cannot. No one has the right incentive here. So you have to work at it a little bit. But you can't have a meaningful life devoid from understanding what's real. Because to make meaningful choices, they have to be in relationship to reality. And I think what you said was really important is to take away the things from your life that interrupt your ability to have agency.

1:16:25Dr. Mark Hyman:And whether it's the food you're eating, the news you're watching, the social media you're scrolling, the friends you hang out with, the things you care about, like, you know, we need to sort of have more agency. As you see in your clinic every day, it's all changeable. And it's changeable acutely for each person with behaviors they can take. And it's changeable at scale for everybody with behaviors we can take to do systemic changes. Thank you. That's a good point to end on. We each to do it systemically. And I think I'm working on both ends of the problem. So are you. So thank you. You are. And I really hope that function can bring a lot of these concepts and tools to everybody because they have been very niche and they shouldn't be.

1:17:03And I love that you're making it not only medicine for the rich, but like medicine that everybody can afford. It's super important. And then I hope the policy work can really gain some success and gain success that can keep working across administrations because science has nothing to do with political parity.

1:17:20Dr. Mark Hyman:And that's the plan. That's the plan. That's the plan. And for those who want to learn more about Daniel's work, look at the Consilience Project. It's consilienceproject.org. We'll put links in the show notes. We'll put links to a lot of references we talked about today. This has been an incredible conversation. And I feel like we could talk for another 10 hours and still keep going. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Likewise. Thank you, my friend. When it comes to supplements, you only want the best for your body, the kind with the highest quality, cleanest, and most potent ingredients you can get.

1:17:51Dr. Mark Hyman:That's exactly what you'll find at my supplement store, where I've hand-selected each and every product to meet the most rigorous standards for safety, purity, and effectiveness. These are the only supplements I recommend to my patients, and they're also what I use myself. Whether you want to optimize longevity or reduce your disease risk, or you're looking to improve your sleep, blood sugar, metabolism, gut health, you name it, And drhyman.com has the world's best selection of top quality premium supplements, all backed by science and expertly vetted by me, Dr. Mark Hyman. So check out drhyman.com because when it comes to your health, nothing less than the very best will do.

1:18:24Dr. Mark Hyman:That's drhyman.com, D-R-H-Y-M-A-N.com. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. Don't forget, there's a way to listen completely ad-free. With Hyman Plus on Apple Podcasts, you can enjoy every episode without any breaks. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap Try Free to start your seven-day free trial. You can find me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to The Dr. Hyman Show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Dr.

1:18:57Dr. Mark Hyman:Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on The Dr. Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my I work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health, where I am Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.

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1:20:01Dr. Mark Hyman:Thanks so much again for listening.