AI Is Rewriting How Customers Choose Your Business

0:00John Jantsch:So did you know that 94 % of buyers now use AI before they ever hit your website? We're going to talk about the marketing hourglass today. It still works, but the way buyers move through it has been rewired stage by stage. And the businesses that don't know which stage is bleeding them out are about to find out the hard way. You know, most small businesses don't have a marketing problem. They have a strategy problem underneath the marketing. I wrote a new workbook called Seven Steps to Small Business Marketing Success that walks through exactly how to fix it. From getting clear as a founder all the way to running marketing like an operating system.

0:39John Jantsch:20 years of working with small businesses condensed into a framework you can actually use. And right now it's only five bucks. Go grab it at dtm.world slash seven steps. That's dtm.world slash seven steps.

1:04John Jantsch:hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast this is john chance my guest today is sarah nay she's the ceo of duct tape marketing she joined as an intern in 2010 worked through every function in the business and took the ceo role in december of 2024 so She is also the author of her own book, Unchained, Breaking Free from the Broken Marketing Models, that I was a co-author on, but I didn't really do any of the work. Today, we're going to talk about that age-old tool, at least it's age-old for us, the Marketing Hourglass. Sarah, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me back.

1:44John Jantsch:I've made that claim that 94 % of buyers now use AI. maybe that's true maybe that's statistics but how are you seeing it actually happen are you seeing it in behavior you know not just research like are people coming to you and say i found you on ai anecdotally are you feeling it or when did you start feeling yeah well i think that stat something to consider is there's a lot of people that are using ai search without even really realizing it so maybe they're going to google and they're reading the ai snippets so that's being counted in that statistic. So they didn't start within an LLM, but they're still using AI to have those searches.

2:23So I think that's an important piece to note in that stat. But for me, just from a personal experience story recently, I got hired for a speaking opportunity that's coming up next year. And the person came to me and when I asked, how did you find me as a potential speaker? They said that we went to ChatGVT, I think was their tool of choice. And we looked for practical marketing speakers that can speak in a range of industries. Like that was specifically what they were looking for. But then they had a conversation within ChatGPT because I wasn't the only name that came up. And so they had a conversation there comparing the different speakers that they proposed and getting deeper on their topics and probably reading different reviews and things they could find about duct tape marketing online.

3:04And so then when they came to me to have the initial conversation, it was very different from someone that maybe would have Googled me and then booked a call. They were like, okay, we know you talk on these specific topics to these different audiences and then you also support clients beyond initial conversations and these are your services. So they knew so much more about me. So the conversation changed from me educating them about what I potentially could speak about to then basically just having a conversation and getting them across the finish line.

3:34John Jantsch:You know, the marketing hourglass, I'm going to pin it about about 2005. So over 20 years old, I've been talking about this idea. And it really came about from so many people talking about the funnel. So the hourglass was like, hey, what happens after somebody buys? That was kind of the idea of the shape. It has evolved. I mean, as many things have evolved. And I think it's interesting because over that 20 year period, a lot of new things have come along. AI is the new thing that's come along. But what I always tell people all the time is what's changed. I mean, marketing is clearly, I mean, changed if you want to look at platforms.

4:12John Jantsch:But what I think the marketing hourglass demonstrates is that the thing that's changing the most is the buyer journey. I mean, if you think about it, the seven stages, know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, and fur. We used to kind of guide those. We used to think about, okay, now you move person and this stuff. So what you just explained, they were like through five stages before they even came to you. So what do you think that suggests we need to be doing differently because people are actually able to kind of self-guide, if you will? Yeah. Well, I mean, it all starts with the first stage of the customer journey, as it always has, with no.

4:51And so there's things that you should be focusing on in business, as a business, to be showing up in these searches. because if we weren't doing things like optimizing our website, producing thought leadership content, getting on review sites, having like I saw on LinkedIn, like PR is back. And so exploring, you know, getting on other people's platforms. If we weren't doing all of those things, I wouldn't have shown up even as a recommendation. And so it still does start with the no phase ultimately because you need to show up there for AI recommendations. But then from there, a lot of the, as you said, the journey is happening within the platform.

5:27So you don't even know necessarily that someone's going through your customer journey because it's happening within ChatGPT or Cloud or the tool they're working in. But like we can help influence what AI is serving in those things. And so what AI is pulling in a lot of is trust components and so reviews on different websites. And so if you're actively gathering those, those will ultimately be pulled into AI. And so there's things that we can do to help influence being shown there, but also the types of information that's being recommended about us once someone actually is having a conversation there.

6:01And so before a lot of that was happening on our websites, now it's basically AI pulling that material from our websites, but also other directory listings supporting sites from there as well.

6:12John Jantsch:Well, you know what's funny about that is, you know, a lot of people just have like, SEO, SEO, it's everything, show up in Google. But what you just described, getting on review sites, having other people talk about you, PR, those have always been good marketing things. It's like everybody's rushing to them now because they see the difference they really make because all of that free organic traffic that people lived with is sort of disappearing. So what do you say to some of the folks that are coming now saying, oh, we invested so much in SEO and now like all our traffic's disappearing. What do we do now?

6:50Yeah. I don't think that there's just you need to shift. So one of the things I talk about, like with the Hourglass changing, the customer journey changing is there's like new leaks forming that weren't there before because of how things are changing in marketing. And so if you were doing really well with keyword specific search on Google, but that's starting to deteriorate with how things are changing, you need to shift your SEO strategy to be more focused on AEO and showing up in AI search. But that's just one example of the things like hopefully as a part of your SEO strategy, you were doing things like already getting reviews and you were doing things like directory listings and you were hopefully getting backlinks by maybe appearing on different podcasts or whatever the strategy was.

7:31So if you're doing proper SEO, that's a little bit more of a diverse approach, then those things should be paying off still. It's just how you're structuring content on your website, for example, that has needed to shift and change. And so I saw a study recently that AI is pulling in like the majority of the content from the homepage specifically. And so we actually had a conversation and one of the masterminds we're part of. And what does that mean? It means that we should be having like really helpful content structured in a very specific way on the homepage. And that always has been a good practice, but having things like FAQs directly on the homepage, because that's the type of content that AI loves to pull from.

8:11or let's say you have really great testimonials before we might just like link to the testimonials from the homepage now you should put the actual like statistic that is most impactful about the testimonial on the homepage but then link to it or let's say you have logos we've always talked about having like credibility logos on the homepage as well like instead of just having like the logos for awards you've won or associations you're part of you should actually describe those logos as well. And so that stuff can all be pulled into AI versus just visuals that it might not be able to read. And so it's structuring and providing content that AI is ultimately looking for on the homepage specifically.

8:53Yeah.

8:53John Jantsch:And I think one of the things, you know, you mentioned that the person that found you for the speaking thing, people are not just typing small business speakers, right? It's they typed in all the requirements that they wanted. And so I think we have to realize that as well that, you know, they might even say who costs less than, you know, X amount to speak. I mean, so I think it really makes a case for we have to lay it all on the table now, don't we? Yeah, exactly. And that's a good exercise that we've talked about, you know, to start with is like literally open the LLM of your choice and start typing in things that you think your customers might be searching for.

9:30So if you're a local business, like let's say you're a home remodeler, like best remodeling companies in Boise, Idaho. That's where I live. And so that might be something that you're searching for, but also getting more specific, as you said, that specialize in kitchens within this budget. Yeah, exactly. These neighborhoods specifically, maybe even. And so like start interacting and asking those types of questions within your different platforms, Chagibitee Cloud, and see what kind of results come back. Are you listed there? Are you a top result? If so, continue to act like interact and tell me more about this company.

10:05Like, how can I trust them? Can you pull in different reviews and just go through the experience like your customers would. And A, if you're not showing up as one of the solutions, that's something to focus on. But B, if you are great, okay, how can you continue to feed it more content or present more content to be pulled in that will continue to tell the story in the way that you want it to be told ultimately?

10:27John Jantsch:You know, I've spent over 20 years watching good businesses waste money on marketing that doesn't add up. And usually the problem isn't the tactics, it's the missing foundation underneath them all. So I put the whole system in a new workbook called Seven Steps to Small Business Marketing Success. Seven steps, the right order with everything you need to build that actually compounds. You can pick it up right now for five bucks at dtm.world slash seven steps. That's dtm.world slash seven steps. I think it's really interesting to see the impact of review copy. So you get some of these home services companies get reviewed all the time.

11:12John Jantsch:So you see some of these home service companies, another three, four, 500 reviews. And dang, do those reviews talk about what's important to people a lot of times. They'll say exactly like they cleaned up the job site or they didn't let our dog out. I mean, that's the stuff that we don't think about, but is that the stuff that needs to start showing up on our homepages as well? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's another thing like when we're talking about the hourglass, one of the core stages is trust. So no like trust. And so that's a component that we're talking about right now. I think one of the ways trust has changed is creating content is easy, it's cheap, it's fast now in a lot of cases.

11:52So more and more people are just creating content. I'm not saying it's good content, but they're creating content. And a lot of the content is starting to like look the same, feel the same, pictures are over edited, videos are done by AI and everything is perfect. And so when you can actually bring in like humans that have worked for like with you and also humans that work for you, they're on your team. Like that's the type of stuff that people are craving. Like they want to hear about the people that they'll be working with. And so they want to hear about your team, but they also want to hear about Joe that had the same problem that was solved by working with you as well.

12:29And so the more like authentic human reviews and stories you can pull in, the more people are going to want to engage with your company versus something that just feels generic and perfect and overly polished.

12:42John Jantsch:You know, when Google first came around, I think you might've been in grade school. It was great, right? It was free. Look at this. It's like great information. And then all of a sudden these ads started showing up. I'm guessing the AI tools are going to bring ads. Right now, ChatTPT, I think you actually I think you actually shared a case study that somebody actually a client is actually running some ads on ChatGPT and with some success. Do you see that as is that going to be the future of buy like so many people depended on Google ads for buy? Yeah, I think it's just another step you can take right now.

13:25There's not a ton of people from what I've heard testing with ChatGPT ads yet. And so it is somewhat inexpensive today. It probably will change like all things have in different platforms. But the case study that I reference is we just lightly started testing ads like$500 a month for an artificial turf client of ours. And the thing that was great about that is we were testing again$500 a month. he had one of his largest sales recently in the last few years, which was around 18 ,000 for that sale happened within a few weeks. And so there was two things that stood out to me. And that is, A, it was one of his larger sales.

14:03And then B, his sales cycle was shorter than any other recent sale. And so why do we think that happened? We don't obviously know for sure. But based on everything that we've talked about today, I believe it's because someone was searching for something very specific to what he did. His ad came up and then they continued to interact there and self-educate before they had a sales conversation with him. And so the sales cycle was able to be shorter because they already had so much more information going into that call versus again, maybe someone that just like Googled him, found the number and called, you're starting from step one.

14:41And so that's an example. Like I think that focusing on organic, being pulled in to AI organically is step one in my mind because that's important because even if someone sees your ad, they're going to probably interact and want to know more. So it's still step one is focusing on how you can be visible there. But I think there's an opportunity right now to then layer on ads to be able to be shown just in a different way into more people.

15:07John Jantsch:Well, I think you make a really good point too because an ad may actually send somebody to your website or something, but if you don't have the information there, if you don't have a good process for like quoting or something, you know, you've still got to have all the goods there or you're just, you know, you can't just depend on an ad selling, you know, an ad can maybe create some, some attraction, but that's about it. You know, one of the, to me, probably the most important stage of the hourglass has always been trust. And today, at least in this little window we're in right now, if somebody goes to AI or goes to just even Google and says the best blah, blah, blah, and Google gives them three answers, right now it feels like people really trust those answers that they're getting from AI.

15:54John Jantsch:So in other words, if you're not showing up in those, it's going to be very hard to get chosen. how do you think we have to start thinking about you know trust if we're sort of invisible in a way if we're not showing up in those like three choices that that particular llm happened to decide we're worthy yeah i think there's different components in trust i mean for one like we talk a lot about like thought leadership content so owning your own point of view and perspective on the inner industry and creating content on a consistent basis like that's going to build trust and credibility when someone's on your website, when they're following you on socials, when they're searching for things in AI and your content's pulled in.

16:37And so I think that's still absolutely relevant. I think that focusing on getting as many reviews as possible from clients is a huge component of that. So it's like producing yourself as someone trustful by thought leader content, but then it's also getting other people's perspectives in step two. But then I would even say like step three then is how else can you build trust again it's by actually having humans behind your brand all like actually having like videos of your website so people can get to kind of know and like and trust you a little bit there it's not being overly polished it's maybe stumbling over things and making typos from time to time so people see that authenticity and they want to connect with you so I really think of trust it hasn't necessarily changed but by putting yourself out there as a human, I think that has become more important.

17:29And then I do think like we've, you know, for as long as I've been in duct tape marketing 16 years now, we've talked about the importance of reviews. That's just becoming more and more important in the age of AI.

17:40John Jantsch:Well, one of the things that nobody says, I mean, everybody says get more reviews, right? But you're not going to get a lot of great reviews unless you're delivering. And I think the back half of the hourglasses, I think is a real opportunity. If it's getting harder to be found, to be chosen, then retaining those clients, getting repeat business, actually having processes for referrals, the whole back half of the hourglass, I think actually may become even more significant. So, you know, how do you convince a client who's just like, no, I need the phone to ring, you know, to focus on those things?

18:14Yeah. I mean, it's something that I get asked all the time because a lot of times when people come to us, they're like, we just need more leads. And I'm Like, well, are you nurturing in the current leads? Are you moving them through the customer journey effectively? Are you selling more to them once they become clients? Are you turning them to referral sources? And as you said there, like, the way you ultimately get referrals is you take care of someone throughout the whole entire customer journey. So I agree with you, like, the referrals piece is getting more and more important. But you can't just be like, all right, let's get referrals.

18:44You need to have all of the other pieces in place. So people want to refer you ultimately. And so I always talk about like, you know, really looking at the whole experience. How are you getting people to know like trust, try, buy, repeat? So then when you ask for the referral, you maybe don't even have to ask at that point because they're blown away. And so I think some of the things that you can do, you know, when you're thinking about the referrals piece is obviously, as you said, putting structure and process behind it, like knowing when to ask and how to ask and how to educate people on like type of referral sources you're looking for.

19:15Like that's all really important. But I also think if you can think about, okay, let's look at our customer journey and how can we put things in place that will blow people away when they're not expecting it? So they just naturally tell friends and family about it as well. So I think a good referral program has structure, has process, but it also has like surprise and delight throughout. So people just don't have to wait for the referral. And so, for example, like when you think about the buy phase, a lot of times people are like, okay, we got their money, we're good. But it doesn't stop there.

19:48Like, how can you, like, there's a lot of buyer's remorse in a lot of different business, like someone pays for something like, oh, was that the right decision? That's your opportunity to just like, heck, yes, it was the right decision. And here's why. by onboarding someone effectively, by communicating with them really well, by letting them know that this was the right decision and by maybe sending them a small bonus or gift or gesture that they weren't expecting. And those are the moments that people are gonna say, I signed up for this company and not only did they communicate throughout the whole process and knew exactly what they were gonna do, they sent me this thing and now I'm sharing it on social media because it blew me away.

20:25So again, the referral, there's a lot that goes into referrals. It's having a tightened customer journey. It's surprising people throughout the way, delighting people throughout the way. And then it's having structure to ask for them in the right moments.

20:38John Jantsch:Yeah. And again, that to me is a form of lead generation. So people need to look at it, obviously, that way. And the beauty of those kind of leads, too, is probably not going to be as price sensitive. They're sort of already sold. You know, so, I mean, it's a much better way to do business. but a lot of people just are conditioned, you know, to like, how do we get more, you know, people in the door type of approach. So if you start working with a business around this idea of the hourglass, what's the first step? I mean, do you kind of map it out and help them find like all the gaps they have or the things they haven't even thought about?

21:12Yeah, absolutely. So whenever you're thinking about your customer journey or hourglass, the first step is to understand like what your current journey looks like today. And so an exercise we love working with clients is literally just sitting down and say, okay, how do people get to know your business or businesses like yours? Like what are all the things they could be doing? Would they be responding to an ad, receiving a referral from a friend, you know, whatever it might be. And so you're brainstorming like all the possible things that your customers or clients might be doing in each of the stages.

21:43But then the second part of that is saying, okay, what are we currently doing? Oh, we aren't running paid ads, maybe that's an opportunity to explore and consider. So really just brainstorming what customers or clients are doing in each of the stages and then what you're currently doing, and then identifying where your gaps might be. And all the time when we go to this exercise, we see people are doing stuff for no, like people know they need awareness in a lot of cases, they know they need to get in front of people. But then they kind of skip through like, trust, try and they like hope people will buy and then they hope people will stay and buy more and then they kind of hope people will refer and so that's just a bit of an extreme example but that's where we see a lot of the gaps is after the no phase and then after the buy phase is where you often see people just not emphasizing as much as they could be awesome well since i know what your call to