Fractional CMOs As Strategy Architects with Angelo Ponzi

0:00Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tapeaket marketing podcast. This is John Jantz, and my guest today is Angelo Ponzi. He's a marketing and branding strategist that works with small-to-mid-market companies as their fractional chief marketing officer, fractional CMO. His company, Kraft, focuses on three strategic pillars for success, insights, brand, and plan, to develop effective and efficient programs for building enduring brands and sustainable business growth. So, Angelo, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. So I still think there's a lot of confusion around it, like a lot of terms in marketing.

0:39So I'm just going to go ahead and say, if somebody says you're a fractional CMO, what is that? How do you describe that? How do you define that term? Yeah, well, I think simply it's a part-time outsource contract situation. So for me, fractional being that it's not a contract. It's not a short-term contract. It's a long-term engagement where I'm going into the organization or depending on my remote clients, where I'm engaged on a weekly basis, sometimes a daily basis with them. And so, you know, think of me as the guy down the hallway, not the guy across the country. Yeah. So, I mean, would you describe a business that you think is a typical great fit for that?

1:24I mean, most people are familiar with the C-suite roles, a chief marketing officer inside of an organization. But what kind of business or what kind of challenge are they facing that you think makes an ideal fit for a fractional strategic marketing hire? Sure. In most of the companies that I've dealt with, they have some kind of a marketing manager or a team in there. Typically, they tend to be a little more transactional in nature, right, just tactically oriented. And so I hear things like, you know, our sales aren't growing. Our messaging is not correct. You know, our competition is, you know, eating our lunch.

2:03And so looking at those kinds of issues. So they can't get to that next level with, you know, someone who's more of a tactical transactional person. So they may start to think of a strategic person. However, you know, a full-time CMO doesn't necessarily come cheap. Right. And so they wrestle with how do I get a senior person without having to have all that expense? And that's typically when I'll get engaged or when they'll call me because, you know, again, depending on the client, how much time I'm engaged. But I sit in that C-suite level and helping develop strategies and directions and messaging and competitive differentiators and then drive those down into the people that actually execute.

2:48Right. Do you find do you get yourself in in engagements where, you know, they're like, Angela, this is great. But like, who's going to do all this? I mean, is there ever an expectation that you're going to do the work or that any strategic like if somebody hires a CMO, do they feel like they're also hiring an implement mentor or is it strictly separate functions? Yeah, well, you know, that's always the dilemma for me. It's my nature to tend to go across the line and start facilitating and doing. But I'm pretty clear up front is, you know, what my purpose is. If someone calls me and says, look, I need a website, a social media or digital campaign, my reaction is, let's talk about your messaging, your strategies.

3:36And if that's not correct, I have to start to the left, right? I've got to talk to your customers that look at the competition, examine the marketplace, and work our way towards execution. So I like to refer to myself sometimes as an architect, right? I'm building that foundational strategy. And then once the plans are in place, then I will sometimes call myself a general contractor. And therefore, I'll bring in outside people to execute or work with the internal teams. But I do cross the fence, but a lot of times they're like, I'm not going to pay you to, you know, frankly, write a blog. It's too expensive.

4:14Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you find internal teams, I hear this a lot, do you find that sometimes there's some turf like, wait a minute, I thought that's what we did. Why are we bringing in this outside, you know, person doesn't know our business? I mean, do you feel, is there ever kind of some turf wars sometimes, even though you're brought in maybe to help them orchestrate better? I can honestly say, actually, I can honestly say it's only happened maybe once or twice where I'll spend. I'm thinking of a technology company a couple of years ago. They brought me in. The marketing person was out of college for a couple of years.

4:50He had his own vision. They brought me in. I revamped everything, redid all their messaging, all their plans. And then here's the plan to implement. And within three months, he was back doing what he wanted to do because they didn't know how to, you know, to really manage him. But I would say in most situations, I'm very collaborative. So it's not my way or the highway. So I find that, you know, even after I leave, they're implementing. I have a company in the streaming space that I helped them when they launched. That was five years ago. And I see him constantly. He'll be the first to say, I'm still working on the strategies you gave us five years ago.

5:30And so that's really rewarding. But yeah, that is always a challenge, right? Because, you know, not invented here. Somebody wants to put their own mark on it. Yeah. I'm sure there are some cases, I'm going to assume, there's some cases you've run into where they're considering hiring you versus considering hiring a full-time strategic hire. What, if you were trying to help somebody work through the pros and cons, you know, besides the cost component, which is obviously a huge selling point on the fractional approach, what are some other things that you might suggest that, you know, why this, why the fractional CMO model is a good idea for them?

6:10Well, partially, too, it's really what does that strategic leader need to do and what is the long-term play with that leader? Are you going to have somebody who can totally stay engaged throughout the time and do all the things that you need them to do? Otherwise, they start to gravitate into the tactical and then you don't really need that. I have a current client where we're looking, I'm filling the strategic leader role. at the end of the day, they don't need a full-time me, but they need more worker bees, if you will. And so my recommendation is keep me engaged. Of course, that's what I would like.

6:47But instead of hiring someone like me full-time, take that money and let's invest in more people at the real marketing level, at the tactical level that need to get things done. I was brought in last year with a consumer products company that had a CMO. They let him go. And he called me and said, hey, I'm thinking about hiring. I think I need a fractional. And then about three weeks later, he called me and said, no, you know what? I decided to go full time. And then three months later, he called me and said, I haven't found anybody. I think my original idea was great. Come in for 90 days, help me.

7:24And I was there for eight months before we brought in. And I, you know, helped bring in my own replacement at that point. They really needed somebody there full time. And there was a situation where I was there three days a week. So, I mean, I literally was in the office and spending the majority of my time working for that organization. Do you find that, I mean, to me, one of the benefits, I think, too, is a lot of times you bring in that CMO. Well, they're, you know, they're going to say we need to build a team internally. And so they start kind of down the traditional path of hiring. Whereas I'm assuming that in many cases, you kind of look at this and say, no, we just need this expertise to do this one thing.

8:01And then we can rent this to do this one thing. And I mean, you're really able to put together a much more affordable approach for exactly what they need, aren't you? Yeah, no, absolutely. It's current client. They had a digital firm, primarily writing blogs. And, you know, I analyzed it and every blog had to be rewritten. And after eight, nine months, you would have thought that they understood the business. So I tried to engage with them. And ultimately, we ended up parting ways. But instead of hiring another firm just like them, I went out and found a content writer that for a fraction of the cost, I could have twice as many blogs for literally a third of the money that I was paying them already.

8:47And so that is one of the things I look at. To me, I always look at any client I work with as my business. You know, I was fortunate to, over the years, I grew a couple of businesses. I was fortunate to sell them. And I understand that, you know, a dollar is a dollar. And if I have to watch it for me, I have to watch it for you. And so it's really about maximizing the talent and the dollars that we have. So I have been doing this approach probably for 15 years, but, you know, didn't use the term fractional CMO because it didn't mean anything to a small midsize business at the time. Are you finding there's a much more recognition of the concept and the term when you go out and talk to particularly midsize business owners?

9:30Yeah, absolutely. And I'll go back. I mean, I'm heading into my 10th year and those first three or four years, it was like, I don't understand what a fractional is. Are you a contract? Are you outsourced? What are you? Right. So it was different terms floating around. I think they understand. I haven't had anybody really recently say they don't understand it. Yeah. You know, I just say you're renting my time basically, you know, during the course of the week. So I think that's I think it's better understood. I even think some of the value of having someone like myself, the client's fine now versus because it's a tough decision.

10:06Right. Do you spend that kind of money? I had a client the other day that, again, looking at bringing in more workers than strategic leaders. And, you know, he said to me, well, what if we could hire you full time? And I suppose my answer was, you can't. It's not what I want to do. And because I knew I would, you know, eventually I would just be pulling my hair out because they don't need someone full time like me. So as you've grown this and scaled it yourself, are there kind of some hard lessons learned that you might share to say, these are some of the landmines that you might look for? Well, I think first of all, for me, and unfortunately it was a very hard lesson, is I had an opportunity back in maybe 17, I think it was, to go in as a fractional, but full time.

11:00It was like an eight-month contract. And I was like, this is great. The money was great. I was excited. And when the contract was over, I was sitting there going, I have no business. I wasn't doing any marketing. I wasn't keeping the pipeline. So anybody out there listening, if you're doing what I do or something even similar, having your own agency, I mean, it is a constant balance of doing new business while you're servicing the clients. I personally now, I would say in the course of the week, I spend the full day throughout the week, but networking, doing my own marketing, doing stuff like this, and just making sure that I'm staying ever present because you just never know.

11:39I have one prospect that I pitched in February. He literally said, you're hired, but there's no contract yet. Now it's August. I still think he'll come around, but I'm on his time. He's not on my time. That's probably the biggest lesson that I've learned in making sure that you have a point of view and you put yourself out there. I have a blogging program, a newsletter program. I do emails. I do LinkedIn. I do public speaking. And, you know, I just want to be able to have content. It's all content to me to refer people to. Yeah. You know, we actually teach people how to start this model. And I tell them, you know, especially when they're just getting started, I said, you know, the thing nobody tells you is about 50 % of this job is selling.

12:25But that's true for any business, you know, when you start it. That kind of leads to one of the, you know, challenges I see a lot of people. How do you scale this model? I mean, in the traditional sense, you know, somebody is a CMO, they jump out on their own, they go, I'm going to be a fractional CMO. And they end up selling a fourth of their time and basically saying, you know, I'm fully employed. I'm getting paid well for my time, but I can't really scale a business. Have you run into that? Have you addressed that? Yeah, that's a really interesting. It's an interesting challenge. So before I formed my agency, for example, this was many years ago, I actually, they didn't call it fractional, but I broke off as a consultant.

13:12And all of, so I left an agency, decided to be a strategic planner for agencies. And then eventually I came to the conclusion after about three years, why am I doing this for you? Why don't I do it for myself? And so that's, I kind of scaled that. So in this particular model, for me, I have identified other CMOs, fractional CMOs or VP leaders, if you will, that are out on their own that I can partner with. One of my biggest clients last year is actually a competitor. But I have a background in research, so they don't do research. They don't do really branding and messaging and positioning. They're more kind of internal management.

13:56And so we complement each other. So one of the things that that I did to scale is I identified in my kind of trading area who my competitors are. I've literally met with every one of them trying to figure out are we really competitors or can we work together? And I would say the majority of them I can work with. And so I've also identified in some of the other key areas. So I have a business analyst that works with me that I pretty much dominate. I have a data scientist that works with me. I have a brand strategist that actually I worked with for years, even in my own agency that happened to, I lost their job during COVID and now works for me as kind of behind the scenes.

14:36So I've been scaling by putting other people in place, frankly, to do some of the work that allows me to continue to devote some of my time to, you know, networking and building the business, but also, you know, when I have to be in front of a client. Yeah. I, I, the mistake I see some people make is just like, you know, you get 25 % of my time. What do you want? And it's like, you're on, it's like, they're dictating, you know, there's no scope like, you know, in agencies, right. We'd scope things out. Right. And I see a lot of people when they do these consulting things, they don't, they don't do that.

15:11And so they're sort of at the whim of a client who doesn't really know what they need. And I think that's a key kind of change that, that I think can allow people to scale this. Yeah. Well, one of the things I did to kind of get around that is I created an assessment that I give at the beginning of every engagement just to really try to understand where they think they are, where they really are, where they think they are. But also among the team, I look for alignment, internal alignment. And so that has allowed me to actually, through the analysis, to say, okay, here's where we've got some real issues and some problems.

15:46You know, you want to be, I'm just going through this with a client now where when I joined them back in February, they had a, you know, a$5 million goal for this year, increase in revenue. Okay. Well, as I started to dig into the data, it's like, where'd that number come from? Your average growth is only 8 % over the last three years. How do you go from 8%, frankly, to a 37 % increase? I don't see how you're getting there. So some number was picked out of the air. And, you know, so trying to bring, you know, creating strategies now that's giving me guidance as opposed to what do you think? If I would have just said, OK, I'm going to support a 37 percent increase, which I did originally.

16:26And then eventually I've swung them back to say, OK, how are we going to get? Maybe it's 15 percent, not the eight, but the 15. And I literally just said this to one of my marketing managers today. You know, there's never there's an endless amount of things to do in marketing. You've got a plan and you always go back to the plan. And just, you know, if you got, you know, you're unsure of your messaging or somebody in sales is pushing back on you, try to understand what's happening with them. Go talk to them. Go listen to a call. So, you know, I find that sometimes in that marketing manager role, they tend to go, oh, well, that was my assignment.

17:03I did it. Now what do I do? Yeah, it's interesting. I find that, you know, we spend as much time, especially early on telling people what not to do as opposed to what to do. Right. Because there's always this temptation to say, oh, there's a new thing out there. We have to do it as opposed to doing any of them well. Right. So exactly. And that's what I was going to ask you. You kind of halfway answered anyway, but I'll let's say we get through the assessment. Obviously, the assessment is going to tell you maybe some direction. But do you typically focus on, do you find that you end up focusing on the same thing pretty frequently, you know, what to fix first, so to speak?

17:40Actually, no. Okay. Because they have a, you know, it's like our sales aren't growing or we're not achieving or we think we have an issue. And I have found that if I can execute my assessment in the process that I do, I can uncover things that they're not thinking about. Yeah. Good case in point. This was last year working with a manufacturing rep organization. Been around for 70 plus years. And so in talking to them and saying, you know, our clients love us. They're mechanical engineers. They know us. We've been we're a focus. We're always included. But I got them to agree to let me talk to their customers because originally it was like, I don't waste your time.

18:22What we found is that they were right. Everybody knows them. Everybody includes them. However, their primary customers were about ready to retire. The new generation of engineers had no idea who they were or knew them, but they were now thinking about environmental products and sustainability products, not the gas guzzlers, if you will, that are being put out. And so all of a sudden we identified a potential opportunity that they would have never seen until it happened. So now they were able to get ahead of it. And so it's that kind of stuff that, you know, we get to uncover. But that wasn't one of their, you know, that wasn't something they told me to go do.

19:06That was just something that came, you know, cream of the crop came rising up when we were able to tackle it. Yeah, I have had so many insights over the years by talking to people's customers. I mean, they know very little about why their customers buy from them sometimes. It's pretty amazing, isn't it? Or they make assumptions that are wrong. Or what the salespeople tell them, right? Like there's a question I always like to ask is I ask the clients, do you think your clients are buying or aware of all the products and services that you sell? And almost always they say no. And to me, it's like, well, then what are you doing to educate them?

19:41Because you could be leaving a lot of money on the table if they just do more. And then we find out because I ask those questions on the flip side and almost across the board, the client will say, no, I don't really understand all the stuff they sell. I only know this. So right there, there's a gap, right? So anyway, it's fine. Yeah. That's actually some easy money sometimes, isn't it? Well, Angela, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. You want to invite people to connect with you anywhere or find out more about your work? Sure. That would be great. The best place, of course, is to go to LinkedIn.

20:12You can connect with me there. That's the easiest. Also, all my contact info is there as far as my website. I actually, I encourage people to sign up. I do publish a newsletter through LinkedIn every couple of weeks. And so do that. And that's the best way to find out more about me. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments out of your day and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.