How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait

0:00Hey, if your 2025 marketing felt more like a scramble than a system, well, you're not alone. You stayed busy, clients showed up, but you're not sure why it all worked. And that uncertainty is risky. You can't build a predictable business on hope. Without a clear strategy, you're just throwing tactics at the wall, and that can get expensive fast. That's why Sarah Nay, our CEO at Ductate Marketing, is opening a few strategy-first calls for service-based business owners. These one-on-one sessions are for those who already have clients, but know their marketing lacks clarity, consistency, and direction.

0:35In the call, you'll pinpoint exactly where your marketing is breaking down and see whether the strategy-first approach can help you build a system that your business can actually run on in 2026. Sponsor Limited, book yours now at dtm.world slash faststart. That's dtm.world slash faststart.

1:10Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Janssen. My guest today is Carmine Gallo. He is an American author, communication coach, keynote speaker, and former journalist, news anchor with decades of experience helping leaders communicate ideas that stick. He is the president of Gallo Communications Group and a contributor to places like Forbes Leadership Council or channel, I should say. He's been on the show for some of his previous books. I think it was Talk Like Ted, at least. And today we're going to talk about his newest book, Viral Voices, from TED Talks to TikTok, persuasive communication skills for the digital age.

1:50So welcome, Carmen. John, thank you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and duct tape marketing. Glad to see you're still going strong since we last spoke about Talk Like Ted, which which was a few years back. I thought you were going to say congratulations on like making it this long, you know, but, but yeah, no, I've, I started my show in 2005. I just really thought it was going to be a cool medium. And so it is probably one of the longer running, you know, business marketing shows. So that's why I've, you know, I have people that I've had on five, five, six times, you know, because they've written books, that many books over that period of time.

2:25So one of the things I want to hit first is this isn't what you're calling an audio original. Yeah. book. And I think that's kind of fascinating because it, you know, most people just write a book and then the publisher says, oh, well, let's get that in a different format and make it audio. I will say that it's come a long way. You know, now people are making them a little more performance-based and there's sound effects and things like that. But why'd you choose to go this route? Isn't it fascinating? Because you know me, I love to learn new things, experiment with new platforms. And so Viral Voices is what's called an audiobook original that I wrote and produced in partnership with Macmillan Audio, which is a giant New York-based publishing audiobook publisher.

3:12Unlike a traditional audiobook, which is in most cases a printed book read aloud, and unlike what you do, which is an ongoing podcast, an audio original is 10 to 12 episodes on a specific topic written and produced entirely from scratch for the audio listener on Spotify and wherever people get their audio books. I think you'll appreciate this, John, through exclusive interviews that I was able to conduct, but also using archived audio and archived speeches and history. I have the flexibility and the creativity to really dive deeper into advanced communication tactics like storytelling or vocal delivery or, frankly, the art and the science of persuasion.

4:05So, for example, I was just thinking about this recently. I got to use archival sound of John F. Kennedy's famous line in his inaugural speech. Ask not what your country can do for you. ask what you can do for your country. Then we cut to neuroscientists who I interviewed, who explain why that line sticks. Why is it sticky? Why is it one of the most memorable lines of the 20th century? Because of things like contrast, placing two opposing ideas back to back. Symmetry, both parts of the line are exactly the same in terms of syllables. Things like replacing long words with short words, et cetera.

4:48So how does that apply to today? Well, if you think about AI, for example, what is the most common expression that you've heard recently on AI? And I bet you've heard this before. AI won't replace you. Someone who uses AI will. I've said it. John, it's the same sentence. That is an example of contrast. And so you've said it. I've said it. I've heard Mark Cuban say it. I've heard Sam Altman say it. But again, what's fascinating to me about this whole journey that I've been on over the last couple of years is that you can learn, if you learn the ancient art of persuasion, the ancient art, you'll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it's on TikTok or a TED stage or using PowerPoint, again, digital, because the tools of communication have changed.

5:45The human brain is not. understand the fundamental science behind persuasion, and you'll be able to adapt to any new platform. Yeah. I mean, let's go, how far do you want to go back? Cavemen, Aristotle. I mean, they're known for actually persuasion. And, you know, as you said, I mean, that's really what they were capable of doing. And I do think, especially people that came up in the digital age, I think that a lot of marketers are like, oh no, the tools are, It changes everything. And it really is true. I mean, fundamentally, we've got to get somebody who has a need to trust us enough to give us their money.

6:21That's it, right? Here's something I'll tell all the marketers today. What's the buzzword in marketing today? Storytelling. Well, I interviewed Yuval Noah Harari, a historian and an author of one of the most famous nonfiction books in the world, Sapiens. And he said that storytelling was a fundamental component of how our species became the apex predator, the dominant species of the world, because we had the unique ability to tell stories that encourage a large group of people to cooperate with one another. So, folks, you did not invent storytelling. This goes back hundreds of thousands of years.

7:06But what's fascinating to me is when I get to interview influencers and content creators who may not even know all that history, but they're still using the same tactics of storytelling that we've known about through hundreds of thousands of years. That's interesting to me. Yeah, I mean, storytelling, you know, evolved before there was a written language, you know, so there was no way to write down a story. It was passed, you know, from person elder to, you know, the next person. I think you're absolutely 100 % right. What are some of the best communicators? I know you talk a lot about Obama in the book, I think.

7:43Yeah, a little. Yeah, I do a little bit because I interviewed Obama's former speech writer. So it's more about the words, why they use certain words. So what do they do that's sort of radically different than, you know, especially marketers who are just tying the hot cup product? Oh, right now, especially, it's really important that not only do you study great communicators of the past, but also take a look at the content creators and the influencers and digital marketers who do seem to get it right. And they're creating really interesting, creative, and compelling video. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast.

8:24Mr. Beast is a perfect example. Gary Vaynerchuk often talks about the importance of telling a story. But here's the interesting part. If you go back throughout history, you'll know, and you know this, but not everybody does, John. This whole idea of having a storytelling structure, storytelling structure like the three-act structure goes back to Aristotle. All famous Hollywood films, nearly all of them fall into the three-act structure. And that is set up, conflict, resolution. Here's the status quo. Here's the world in which the hero lives in the ordinary world. Here's the problem they face. And here's how they are going to resolve the problem.

9:04And everybody lives happily ever after. Well, I started interviewing people who had a former career, like Sahil Bloom is one of the guests who I've interviewed. So Hill Bloom was a finance guy on Wall Street and then created a newsletter and now has So quite a popular and strong following on Instagram where he explains these complex financial topics in ways that people can understand. So I said, take me through the structure. Mr. Beast has a similar structure. Here's the way the world exists today. Here's the status quo. Here's what you've been doing. Here's why if you continue to do what you've been doing, you're going to fall behind.

9:44And here's the solution that you've been searching for. That's how you get people hooked on a video. Hooked, that's the other word they use. All good content creators use the word hook. How am I going to hook you? More often than not, they are talking about the three-act structure. Often not even knowing that it's the three-act structure that goes back to Aristotle. So I think if you understand storytelling, not just the buzzword. You can't just say, oh, well, tell a story. No. So be deliberate about what that means. What does it mean to tell a story? What does it mean to have a structure? And by following these simple structures, you'll be able to adapt into almost any means, especially on social media.

10:31You can create a short form video that's perfectly adapted to the three act structure. But you need to understand the structure first, which is why I have one episode that's just on the three act structure. I have another episode that talks about scenes within the 3X structure. And I'll use people like Jensen Huang. Jensen Huang may not be his household name, but NVIDIA sure is. He's the CEO and founder of NVIDIA. Listen to his interviews, John. It's quite fascinating. He always talks about starting at Denny's. When people ask him about NVIDIA and the founding of NVIDIA and how it was created, he doesn't start by talking about, well, it's the first$5 trillion company and here are all the chips that we make that powered the AI world.

11:20Instead, he said, it all started at Denny's, where me and a handful of, you know, and a couple of other friends met at the diner over pancakes and coffee. And we came up with this idea that eventually became NVIDIA. But he repeats it in almost every interview. That to me is a hero's journey. He's not starting from the conclusion. He's starting from the beginning. Where does the origin, the spark start? And you know this, and most of the people listening to this know it better than average. If a story starts with humble beginnings, it's more interesting on that arc. And that arc, by the way, at NVIDIA has a lot of ups and downs too.

12:04And he takes people through this arc until today. That tells me he's a storyteller. It makes people more interesting and engaging as marketers or speakers if you understand how to tell a powerful story. Hey, if your 2025 marketing felt more like a scramble than a system, well, you're not alone. You stay busy. Clients showed up, but deep down, you're not really sure why it all worked. And that uncertainty is risky. You can't build a predictable business on hope without a clear strategy, you're just throwing tactics at the wall and that can get expensive fast. That's why Sarah Nay, our CEO at Ductate Marketing, is opening a few strategy-first calls for service-based business owners.

12:48These one-on-one sessions are for those who already have clients, but know their marketing lacks clarity, consistency, and direction. In the call, you'll pinpoint exactly where your marketing is breaking down and see whether the strategy-first approach can help you build a system that your business can actually run on in 2026. The Sponsor Limited, book yours now at dtm.world slash fast start. That's dtm.world slash fast start. You mentioned the idea of a hook. And I think a lot of people use that in a lot of ways it's become so important because the attention is so fleeting. And so the idea of a hook is it's like, give me three seconds.

13:33You got three seconds to tell me why I should listen to this, right? Unfortunately, that sometimes leads to clickbait and to really abuse of that idea. So how do you use that effectively? First of all, it's not new. I asked all these questions of neuroscientists and people who actually do a lot of brain research. None of this is new. John, do you know how Well, nowadays people say movement. If you're doing something on TikTok, it'll stop the scroll. So you'll have women putting on makeup, you know, while they're talking. Or just even walking while they're holding the camera, right? Walking talk, right.

14:09Well, guess what? John Medina, a famous molecular biologist who's been studying the brain for some four decades, told me, Carmine, that's not surprising because movement captures your attention. It's evolutionary. If something is moving, it could be a threat. Therefore, you focus on it. That's the hook. They're calling it a hook, but the point has always been the same. People want to know almost immediately. Now, let's separate this from the movement. I don't want to get too confusing, but the hook is absolutely right. Whether it's three seconds or seven seconds, there's a lot of questions about that research as well.

14:54So don't just say it's three seconds or seven. No one really knows what it is, but it sounds good. You know, 10 ,000 steps doesn't necessarily, it's more like 7 ,300 steps. Right. Oh, 10 ,000 sounds better. Okay. So let's go with three or seven seconds. I've talked to neuroscientists who say this is not surprising because within the first few seconds of meeting somebody new, the brain is asking questions. Who is this person? Should I trust this person, friend or foe? And the other question it's asking is, should I consume energy listening to this person? Of course, Hook, that's a good point. Look, I don't care if you start with three seconds or seven seconds, but I think the point is well-established.

15:45Grab people's attention early. You're not writing a mystery novel where you have to save the whodunit for the end. Grab people's attention early. Yeah, character development needs to be later, right? You know, I've always said, because a lot of times people say, how long should my video be? And I think that's the same true of the hook, is your hook can be as long as it is not boring, as it is entertaining, as it is addressing the problem that I'm trying to fix. I mean, so I think that's how you have to look at it, is people tune out because they're like, this isn't for me. Exactly. People don't tune out because it's an hour long podcast.

16:21They tune out because it's boring. Right. And I think you bring up a good point. I actually like podcasts like yours that are more like 20 minutes, because frankly, it is hard to keep people's attention for more than 10 to 20 minutes. So you'd have to be really good, have an enormously compelling guest or topic. But most people in general, and this is something else that's well-established in the science literature, will tune out of a presentation, no matter how interesting it is, after about 10 to 20 minutes. So again, why go on for an hour? If you're giving a PowerPoint presentation to your boss, to a team, and they give you 45 minutes, don't take 45 minutes.

17:09Deliver it in 15 minutes. Wait for the Q &A. And if everybody gets done in 25 minutes, they'll be much happier because they got some time back during their day. You're a hero. So from the neuroscience, were there any surprising insights that particularly are ones that most leaders overlook when they're trying to be persuasive? Yeah, there were so many. One of the reasons why I really enjoy doing this whole project is because I learned a lot of things I didn't know. And I'm obsessed with this. I've been studying storytelling and communication skills and writing about it for more than 20 years, for about two decades now.

17:48I'm obsessed with it. I thought I knew a lot. There are a lot of things that I did not know, especially when it comes to the neuroscience of AI. And I think this is key. And well, the reason why I didn't know is because it is new. Most people don't know this stuff. And if anyone ever tells you that they're an AI expert and they know exactly how to crack the algorithm, don't believe it. Don't believe it. Because no one really does know. Well, it also changes every day. It changes every day. But the neuroscientist will tell you that here's the interesting thing about AI. AI, as most of you know, most of your listeners know, does not have imagination.

18:34So set aside that whole argument about, is it conscious? Is it sentient? Is it emotional? Is it human? No. Is it even intelligence? No. Most scientists, most neuroscientists kind of, you know, they dismiss all that talk because they know it's different. But here's what they taught me. And here's a great example. I have this in the Viral Voices audiobook. Did you know that if Steve Jobs had asked ChatGPT to come up with an ad campaign for Apple, it would not have written, think different. Right. And then connect, think different to real people like Albert Einstein and Nelson Mandela, like the now famous Apple ad.

19:22And so I asked some AI experts or people who study AI or work for ChatGBT and OpenAI, why? Why would it have not come up with something like Steve Jobs did? And they said, because that's too creative. AI, here's what I was told, AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning. So think different works precisely because it breaks the rules. And that catches people's attention because people like rule breakers, like Steve Jobs. It's really fascinating, John. But if you start giving, delegating everything to AI and not using it simply as a great tool to speed up content creation, to analyze, to research, to help you improve.

20:15But if you start delegating too much, you lose your authentic human voice. And then everything becomes AI slop. You know, you've heard of that term, right? AI-generated content. So I think to survive, to thrive, especially in marketing today, you've got to stand out. You've got to be distinct. How? be uniquely human and celebrate and amplify your uniquely human voice. So in these books, this is a terribly unfair question, but in these books where people do a lot of interviews with people, I always like to say, who is your favorite or most enjoyable interview? Richard Branson. Okay. I have Richard Branson in this audio book too.

20:59too. Richard Branson loves storytelling. And, you know, he's just a fun guy. He's really down to earth for being a guy who's worth billions of dollars and a created virgin. But he told me the funniest story that I have in this audio book. And that's what I liked about audio books. I can actually talk to people and you get to hear their voice, not just a printed quote. And so Richard Branson told me that, yeah, it's very important to grab attention through the stories you tell. And he was talking about marketing and all that. And he said that when his, he tried to, he was on a hot air balloon and he was trying to break the transatlantic record for crossing the Atlantic in a hot air balloon.

21:40And the first time it crashed off the coast of Ireland and it was pretty dramatic. And so I've got some news footage, archival news footage from the scene. They almost lost their lives. I mean, it was pretty, it was very serious. But then Richard Branson, in only the way Branson can, said, actually, it turned out to be a better story than if I had succeeded. Because we crashed into the Atlantic. And he goes, and if you take a look at the news footage, the last thing you see going down is a big hot air balloon with virgin on it. And he said, Carmine, a good story is not always a straight success story.

22:18You need tension. You need the mistakes and failures along the way. brilliant. But he was looking at it from a marketing perspective. He said it was a much better story. Well, Carvan, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, learn about your work, and maybe even find a copy of Viral Voices? Viral Voices will be available on Spotify and any place you get your podcast. And if you'd like to know more about me or simply contact me, if you can remember a good Italian name like Carmine Gallo. I'm very easy to find on the internet.

22:54You can go to CarmineGallo.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I love that platform as well. My parents did not drink much, but if they drank, it was Gallo wine. There's a lot better wine these days, but I appreciate it, but I like my wine too. Well, again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road. You bet. Thanks, John.

23:29Hey, if your 2025 marketing felt more like a scramble than a system, well, you're not alone. You stayed busy. Clients showed up, but deep down, you're not really sure why it all worked. And that uncertainty is risky. You can't build a predictable business on hope. Without a clear strategy, you're just throwing tactics at the wall, and that can get expensive fast. That's why Sarah Nay, our CEO at Ductate Marketing, is opening a few strategy-first calls for service-based business owners. These one-on-one sessions are for those who already have clients, but know their marketing lacks clarity, consistency, and direction.

24:05In the call, you'll pinpoint exactly where your marketing is breaking down and see whether the strategy-first approach can help you build a system that your business can actually run on in 2026. The spots are limited. Book yours now at dtm.world slash faststart. That's dtm.world slash faststart.