How to Win Media with AI-Powered PR

0:08Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ductate Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantz and my guest today is John Ness. He's the founder of JustReachOut.io, a platform that helps entrepreneurs, agencies, and consultants land media coverage by pitching journalists directly and ChatRain.ai, a new solution for AI-driven SEO. Over a decade of hands-on experience in PR and search, he's helped thousands of marketers cut through the noise using tools that simplify outreach and keep SEO rooted in what actually works. So, John, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

0:44So let's just get right to it. How has AI actually changed the way marketers or even agencies should approach PR and SEO? I mean, there's a lot of stuff that's real. There's a lot of stuff that's hot. Absolutely. So first of all, I was just say off the bat, we believe AI is an amazing tool to help guide the human driven marketing approach. And so we are not a tool where you enter in your website and then a bunch of AI model, to like just bot, expand everybody and just like your messaging is all over the place. That is not what we do at all. No. What we do is we have an amazing business where we help small business owners, medium sized businesses, all the way to like large public companies, nonprofits and everything in between do their own PR.

1:23And so it can be a really daunting task to think about, all right, how do I find out who to reach out to? How do I find out what messaging to use? What story is going to resonate? Those are all really difficult things. And generally people just say, I don't know, I'll go hire an agency to go figure it out. Well, that's nice. And obviously agencies are amazing tools, but you know, they cost a lot of money. So not every business has that money. So with the advent of AI, we're able to really help enable businesses that maybe have the passion and kind of like the ideas of what they want to do for PR, but don't necessarily want to hire an agency.

1:52And frankly, they want to tell their own story. And so our system can help you use things like AI to help identify who are the best media targets to go after, how to build your media list smartly. So you're sending 20 highly targeted emails to the right media contact instead of 2000 to just a random list of people you download up the internet. That's the first thing. obviously getting your messaging correct is really important our ai tools can help you give feedback on what's resonating what the hook can be why journalists will care all those kinds of fun things again it can help you kind of assist in writing but it's not just going to write it for you and send it you the human have to kind of go in there and tell your story the right way and so like i said we love ai to kind of assist the human-led marketing pr experts that we know work really really well so i've been doing this a long time when i first started my agency pr was really seen as almost a separate deal, separate channel almost, if you will.

2:39And really with the onset of Vigil, a lot of that kind of waned. I mean, media relations kind of went by the wayside. It's like, oh no, we're all on Twitter now, all blogging and people are finding us directly. I certainly sense that with the change of AI and SEO, that PR is actually going to, I think, make a real comeback because the emphasis on authority and on expertise and on citations, that really are just the natural part of PR. So maybe talk a little bit about that idea of PR kind of making a rebound and then also how it relates to today's SEO. Yeah. So if you're a business and you sell products, you sell software to other businesses, no matter what you're doing, you need your potential customers to buy from you.

3:25You need them to trust your brand and really feel like you are the best option for that. And so obviously you can go on your website and tell amazing stories about how you're the greatest at this certain thing or you know how to do this really well. And that's really important. And so I'm not going to take anything away from content marketing, writing a blog, social media, all those things are super important. But at the same time, you experience this for sure, I'm sure as a consumer and a buyer yourself, you are out there thinking like, okay, well, how do I trust them? How can I make sure that I feel really good about it?

3:50So other sources commenting on including them in their research and in their findings always really helps. And so you're right. PR is not just about, you know, getting your face on the cover of Forbes magazine or getting your quote in the New York Times. And it's like, yeah, that's amazing. But today PR is getting a local, like micro-influencer to feature you. It's about getting into really targeted blogs where maybe they only have 50 readers, but those 50 readers are your exact target audience. Like that's PR too. Getting into YouTube channels, going on to podcasts. These are all different ways to be doing public relations for your brand, making the brand out there and trusted and aware from other sources.

4:22At the same time, you know, like again, telling your own story in the way you want to tell it. And that's, I think the most authentic way this goes. We've had customers that have been very successful and customers that haven't been. And I can tell you the ones that are successful are the ones that because they tell an authentic story. They feel real. They feel authentic. It feels like they really have the passion coming through the screen or the prints, whatever it might be. Like that is really important. So like I said, this is all about the human element. AI helps enable that. And AI kind of helps make the PR process even easier.

4:47And again, it's not just who you know at the Wall Street Journal newsroom. It's all about kind of finding your path to find your customers and find the people that really care about the media you want to put out. So talk a little bit about the relationship, though, between PR today. And a lot of people are having different names for it, but AI-driven SEO for answering. What's the relationship between PR and the new SEO? Yeah, it's funny. I'll just give you the quick origin story of what led us to eventually build ChatRank. But it was last summer, we as JustReach out as a software business, we obviously eat our own dog food.

5:21We do our own SEO. no, we are a number one blue link in many of our core categories. We pay for Google ads. We obviously do a kind of combo of things to bring customers in the door. And last summer, Google just stopped spending my money. It just wasn't spending my money, my ad money. And Google loves spending my money. Don't get me wrong. They really do. And so we were kind of shocked at what was going on, went into our core search terms and realized that the AI overview had usurped the page. They completely taken over our core search page. And we're like, oh, wow, like this is really important because at the time, you couldn't buy your way into the AI overview.

5:49Like you need to make sure that was only authentically given to the right type of companies. So that kind of set us on this journey of how can we use what we know about PR, getting your brand out there and kind of writing good content, all the things that we know work really well for traditional SEO, PR, backlinks, et cetera, and apply that to the new like answer engines that are out there. So that kind of, again, was the genesis of ChatRank, what we're building today to kind of help other clients do the same thing. But the idea there is that we built it for ourselves. So we are out there like understanding what works.

6:14How do you actually get your brand featured in ChatGPT answer? It's get your brand visible out there for AI overviews, whether perplexity or others. And so our system can really easily help you understand what's out there, what your competitors are doing, what seems to be winning for these types of ideas, and helping you step-by-step guide you to kind of winning it and growing in that area. So it really does tie really nicely because like you mentioned before, your own content is really important. And then having other people write about you is also important too. So that's like kind of the outreach and media PR is kind of getting other people to validate you.

6:43And sometimes like kind of producing your own content for the AI models and answer engines It's really effective as well. So it's a combination of both. And I'd say 90 % of our customers that use ChatRank also use JustReachOut because they are so complimentary. Talk a little bit more about this idea. I mean, I think everybody's saying, hey, you have to show up in that AI overview. I don't think anybody debates that, but that's a good thing, right? Because I think what people are doing now is instead of saying, okay, I found five links to five websites, I'm going to go to them all, make some assessments.

7:10Now it's like, here's my overview. This one seemed to answer where I was after. I'm going to go there with high intent. So, I mean, showing up in those AIO reviews is the new number one spot, right? I mean, so how does, what are some of the things people need to start doing to give themselves an advantage or the ability to maybe start showing up in some of them? Is it sort of a foregone conclusion, like what you did the last five years is why you're showing up there or is there a way to impact it today? Yeah, I'll answer that with a quick example. and so I personally I'm the kind of person that I love when I buy gear whether it be a backpack or a bad luggage or anything I buy it for the long haul I like to have that bag for 10-20 years that's my I don't like to buy the cheap stuff that gets thrown out every year so I hadn't bought a new backpack in probably 15 years and it was it's been a long time but I was dearly in need of one and so I was like alright I need a new bag I need it to carry my laptop I need it to be a commuter bag so I can get to work I also would love for it to be like a small travel bag if I'm going on a day trip somewhere and so I that's not something easily accessible on Google You can't just Google that idea.

8:12You have to switch laptops, go into a couple of wire cutter guides and start to search around and try to find that answer. So I went to open up ChatGPT and said, like, I want it to be black. I want it to have this much storage, have a laptop sleeve, maybe a space for my water bottle, all those kinds of things. Give me three possibilities. Give me three possibilities. And I went to each one of those sites. And those companies that are kind of getting featured there in ChatGPT in that example are being hyper specific with exactly what I wanted. and so I think the first thing to answer your question about like what it is that you can do to kind of win in this area is know what you're trying to do and be hyper specific and authoritative on that thing.

8:45So if you are a back path that's really good for both working people and also like commuter bags for like getting on your bike and riding your bike to work as well as for you know a day trip out to see a client like that should be like all over the product page or a blog post or anything else that can really kind of hone in on my exact use case. So again you might get one of me per month searching for that thing but I can promise you if you are really good and specific up writing that post about why that is exactly why your bad job is amazing. I promise you, you're going to get surfaced in ChatGPT and others for doing that.

9:12And so I think the first thing I always tell people is don't just write, hi, my brand is amazing. And then just hope ChatGP picks it up. Hyper specific, hyper authoritative. This is why we're great. And this is the reasons why. This is what we can do. This is why customers love it. All those kinds of fun things, but on a very specific topic, almost like the idea of the long tail keywords from past SEO, but that kind of really wins. So is it going to be hard to like win best CRM for sales organizations? yeah that's an impossible like thing to win in traditional search or AI search but knowing like your niche knowing what you're trying to go after and writing high specific content for that is a great place to start yeah and of course anybody that if you show up for that search and anybody clicks then comes to your website because of that search probably 50 % of them are going to buy right I mean it's like it's a they're there now just to make the transaction at that point because they've got other things they need I was given three options I bought one of the three I mean it's going to end up that way and I mean some of these organizations like Google and OpenAI are making it easier to actually shop directly but even without that like people are doing the research in these AI models for exactly the reason I described you want to ask those kind of questions that are more like a natural language conversation and that's much easier to do with a like an answer engine than it is with like traditional search this is why I mean I just listened to Sindar Pichai from Google talking on a podcast last weekend and he was all about you know AI mode is like just going to keep it's going to be separate but they're going to keep rolling in features they're basically going to test out features and make sure they're good about them just roll them into search slowly over time.

10:35So Google search is not going to become AI mode anytime soon, but I promise you, AI mode is infiltrating Google search day by day. So keep happening. Yeah, but there are certain types of searches that are not necessarily going, people aren't asking questions, they're not necessarily going to be answered by that. So I'm looking, I kind of laugh at the people saying Google's dead. You know, I need a new pair of running shoes recently. I know exactly what running shoes I like. I like Brooks running shoes. I went on Google and said, Brooks Adrenaline size 12. I'm like, I just know exactly, like, I know what I need for that.

11:05That's a Google search. That's not an AI research search. Let's shift back to PR. A lot of people familiar with the idea of pitching media. One of the things that AI I think has done, and this isn't just the pitching, this is the content, everything, is it's really allowed people to create a lot of garbage. We can take this from the positive direction or the negative direction. What are the mistakes people make when trying to pitch the media and how could they really enhance their chances of getting somebody's attention, micro-influencer to Wall Street Journal? Yeah. I'm going to take the positive approach because I really do think there's an opportunity here.

11:42It's actually easier to take the negative approach here by just saying it's easy to spam. It really is. It's never been easier in the history of the world to spam people. And frankly, these journalists that write these large publications, they're getting so much of this. They're getting pretty good and their spam filters are getting pretty good at reading it out. So in order to win, you need to really stand out somehow. And so we always tell all of our customers here for the same thing. They always say, am I going to get pressed? Is this going to work? And I just tell them the same answer. Do you have a good story to tell?

12:08And if you do, you're going to get pressed. If you don't, you're not. So really, how do you put that story and how do you hone that story down into a maximum 200 word pitch, usually preferably a 100 to 150 word pitch to a journalist so that they really care about what you're seeing, you're passionate about learning more, and they want to help you out with that. So that's not simple. It's not going to work on day one. But whether you're pitching to a micro-influencer or you're pitching to the Wall Street Journal, obviously there's going to be nuances to what the audience will care about. So we always say, know who you're pitching to and know who their audience is.

12:35Because even if they think the story is great, if their audience isn't going to appreciate it, they're not going to tell it either. So always think about that as a first step. Once you're there and you kind of understand who you're pitching to, it's really about authenticity and pitching them a story they're going to care about. So like I said, if our customers that do not do well with our system are the ones that say, hi, I'm John, I'm amazing, write it on me. Not going to work. It's like, hi, my product does this, it features this, it is sustainable for this reason, it has this amazing story attached to it, whatever it's going to do to kind of promote a reason for that journalist to care about your story, that's amazing.

13:03Tying it to current events, tying it to something in the news, tying it to whatever you can to make it really tangible for the readers is amazing. I have tons of examples of this, but it really is kind of like the way to win in your pitching for PR is just tell a story that they care about and their audience will care about, not just what you care about. One of the things I hear you saying that some people are not going to like to hear is that there's a lot of personalization that people too. It's not a matter of like, write a press release, get a list, and bomb the same, you know, 200 press releases out.

13:34I mean, you really have the journalist has to feel like you get them, you get their audience, and that this is a story that maybe you've only said to them. Yeah. Is that what we're saying? We see that, like I said, I bet just before, but you can still write a press release and send it out on the newswire. I mean, those can work. I'm not going to sit there and say that they don't, but you can't do that on a platform. We don't know how it, it's just, that's not how it works. You download, you kind of bring in the 10, 20, 50, whatever the number is, journalists that are really hyper-targeted because you know, according to our system, you've done the research, they've actually written about your topic or talks about your competitors or they know your space really well.

14:07We feel really confident those people are going to open the email at a minimum because they care about the space. And then the second they read you a pitch and they say, okay, this is good or not. But like, you're going to do that 20 times really targeted. And I promise you, you're going to get better response rates and better traction spending 20 highly targeted emails and sending 2000 spam emails. So it's just, it's just over and over again. And we've seen this in the course of the last 10 years. So how much does, you know, like in an ad or even in an email subject, it's like that headline that'll grab them because they're going to give you about two seconds before they make the decision to go further or go on.

14:40So how much, how important is a, you know, you might call a hook that, you know, is so compelling that it grabs somebody's attention in one or two seconds? Yeah. So the reality of the news cycle today is that people need that hook. They need the reason to click. Like every journalist, reporter, podcaster, whoever is looking for that click. They're looking for like, why should people care about this story? And so we always tell our customers, data, interesting information, anything that's proprietary to you that only you can uniquely tell, that's what the journalist wants. So whether it's like information or data about your customers or your industry, whether it's just like stories that only you can tell because only you have them, whatever it seems unique to you, that's your best way to kind of get across to the journalist, that hook, is that, hey, you have to talk to me.

15:19This is a great story, but yeah, you can't talk to everybody else over there. You have to talk to me. because I have the information you need and nobody else does. That makes you really valuable. And by the way, that also builds relationships over time. So they write the story about that topic today. They quote you or they feature your information or whatever it might be. And then six months from now, they want to do a follow-up on the story. They're not going to bother like waiting to be pitched together. They're just going to call you. And so a lot of our customers get, call it repeat business from their, from the journalists and the people they reach out to.

15:44And again, they're now seen as the experts on this topic. And again, not to say journalists are lazy, but they know people have good information. They're going to go back to the well over and over again. They're not going to constantly search for new information when they know they have a reliable source. They're looking at a bit credible float with one phone call or one email. How much of a role is social proof? I used to tell my clients years ago that you get more media coverage by getting media coverage. And with the idea being that you've been written up in a local paper and then a regional paper and then you go for the Wall Street Journal.

16:13How important is that? If you'd ultimately like to land some big fish, you need to land a bunch of little fish birds. in general I'd say that's pretty true I mean the idea is if you're not a very well known brand but you have a really good story sometimes it's easier to get it out there first to a smaller publication whether it be a blog a trade journal a niche organization that's usually easier to get your foot in there not to say you can't go straight to the Wall Street Journal that's not that you can't do that but sometimes it's just easier to get into the other publications because maybe that journalist isn't getting pictures many times per day and they're going to see your pitch more easily and they're going to they're going to be cheap so I'd say that it's a good approach but it doesn't mean you can't stop you don't have to go for both.

16:50We would recommend for our customers, try both. So you never know, the person at the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or whoever, at CNN or Forbes, they actually also need the best stories. If you have the best story, they'll still want to talk to you and feature that. So we had an amazing customer. She had an organization. She personally had ovarian cancer. We had the foundation to support research in the field. And she was going after, you know, smaller places. You know what? She went up to the Today Show too and said, I'm interested in telling my story. And she got picked up. So it really does depend on kind of, it's an amazing story.

17:17Like obviously not everybody has that. It's such an art-only story. But at the same time, you should go for all of it. But the idea, generally speaking, would be the smaller publications are generally easier to get into. It's not that you have to do it to get to the higher publication, but it is generally a way to start and it feels good to get a win and get yourself out there and get yourself flexing everything. How much, you know, so much of it used to be, you know, everything was in print. Now everything was, then it went to everything in print and an online version. A lot of publications now are strictly online.

17:47maybe not a lot of viewership on the coverage that, you know, especially in the online edition. What are some other elements of, you know, how would you take that and amplify it? Let's say you've got that, you know, regional publication to write about you, but it's pretty much on their blog or something that maybe not a whole lot of people are going to see. How would you amplify coverage? Today, it used to be all about, you know, print or just getting into the magazine or the newspaper, et cetera, like you said. Those days are long since passed. And today, what it really is about is amplifying your message to where your audience gets their media.

18:19So this is what our always biggest pitch is that if your audience gets their media on podcasts, go pitch podcasts and go do as many podcasts as possible and skip the Wall Street Journal and Forbes because your audience is listening to podcasts. If your audience, if you're a very niche, you know, B2B business, like really your customers are like, you know, 100 CIOs spread across the country, go pitch that trade journal that's going to feature you there and just like don't worry about the other things. And so we always say, if I figure out, just like you're doing sales, figure out where your audience, potential audience is, and then be really honed in on those type of places.

18:50So if it is a regional business and you're a local, you know, pizzeria or franchise, sure, yeah, go for the local organizations and then see if you can leverage that into a larger story. But frankly, like, we always tell our customers, like, a blog with 50 readers, but the 50 correct readers is so much better than an article that reaches 10 ,000 people that don't really care about your story. So really it's about finding out, like, how you're going to grow your business, how you're going to grow your sales, where your audience is and then pitch that media. And that's generally the approach that our customers take.

19:14And so yeah, so our group customers are super happy pitching local media and we have customers that are super happy pitching national media. And it all works. Well, John, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the DuckTake Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to learn more about your services as well as connect with you? Absolutely. Yeah, so we're at justreachout.io. So J-U-S-T-R-E-A-C-H-O-U-T dot I-O. That's for our kind of AI power PR and digital PR software. Really easy. Sign up on our website. We give a free week trial for anybody that wants to try it out. It'd be really great for just getting your brand out there and telling your story to media.

19:46And then also check us out at chatrank.ai. So it's C-H-A-T-R-A-N-K dot A-I. That is all about visibility and growing your ranking and visibility in the AI models. Super new, super cool stuff. Our customers there are doing really well. Check out some of our case studies on our website and learn more about that. Awesome. Again, we appreciate you taking some time. Hopefully we'll be one of these days out there on the road. Thank you so much.