Navigating Global Relationships

0:07Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantz, and my guest today is Andy Malensky. He's a professor at Brandeis University's International Business School with a joint appointment in the Department of Psychology. Andy received his PhD in organizational behavior and a master's in psychology from Harvard University. His research and writing has been featured in publications such as Harvard Business Review, Inc. Magazine, and the New York Times. We're going to talk about his latest book, Forging Bonds in a Global Workplace, Build Rapport, Camaraderie, and Optimal Performance, No Matter the Time Zone.

0:46So Andy, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. So let's start with the big picture. What are the inherent big challenges in working across time zones? Gosh, there are lots. I think that the biggest challenge in terms of building relationships across time zones, I think in terms of that, I think there are two core challenges. is the first is understanding differences, cultural differences. And anyone listening has probably read an article, heard something about cultural differences, about how people from this culture tend to do this and people from this other culture tend to do this.

1:16And that's fair. That can cause misperceptions, misunderstandings, and so on. And it's really important to be aware of those. In our new book, we certainly talk about that, but we also talk about the flip side, which is now that you've recognized the differences and you've avoided the misperceptions, how then can you actually create the connections? Because when, you know, in our own culture, we're not, the way we build relationships in our own culture isn't just by like, you know, maniacally avoiding difference. That's not how you build a connection. Yeah, that's interesting though, because in your own culture, the differences maybe are, maybe subtle, you know, whereas they're like complete cultural differences.

1:51I remember one time I was with a group and we were in an international audience and it was a gentleman from Japan that came up and was introduced to the group and he, you know, does the whole, You've probably seen people talk about the whole ritual with the business card and, you know, the person that he presented to just took it stuck in his pocket. And everybody, you could see everybody just was like, what do we do now? So those are kind of the things that I think people tend to think about, you know, but really, where do they, you know, where do they actually play out in terms of relationship building?

2:20Well, I think that, by the way, I wouldn't discount something like that, because the importance of something like that is that if someone's not aware of the cultural difference, they could draw conclusions very quickly about the person, you know, that they don't care about us, that they're not respectful, they don't like our culture, and so on. And that can pretty much short circuit a relationship before it starts. But in our research, so we interviewed 100 people from around the world for this new book. And we ultimately found six different kind of dimensions along which relationship building differs.

2:52I mean, I could mention a couple of them. Yeah, or give maybe an example or two of a couple of them. That's probably usually that's more. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So one's power. Who can have a relationship with whom? So for instance, in certain, you know, let's say hierarchical cultures, like let's say Korea, you were taught your whole life to respect authority, be deferential, be polite. And so when you're in a Korean workplace, you're not going to chit chat about, you know, the weather or last night's baseball game with your boss. It's just not going to happen. Whereas in the US, you know, it's a much flatter, less hierarchical society.

3:27And then if you travel over to Scandinavia, you're going to get even flatter. So power is definitely one thing to be attuned to. Another one is... I wanted to interrupt another example. I was in a small Middle Eastern country for an event, and there were a lot of dignitaries at the event in kind of a pre-conference. And it was interesting to me, as somebody new would come in who was maybe perceived to be a higher up the rung diplomatically, people would literally get up and rearrange chairs. because that person got to sit closer to the esteemed guest or something. So those are the types of, I mean, that's a definite example, right?

4:05Of that type of structure. Absolutely. And it's so important to try to step inside the logic of that other culture, if you can. Because that then, and to be curious about it, right? Because I think our instinct, our reflex often is to think that's different for me. That's weird. But if you can just take a beat and be curious about it, I think that's key for, ask questions about it, be curious. And that actually, in and of itself, sometimes cultural differences, if you approach them in sort of a curious, interested, respectful way, can themselves be the seeds of a connection that can grow, discussing them.

4:44So I'll just give you one other example is pacing, pacing, speed. So in certain relationships, you know, I'm sorry, in certain cultures, you can build relationships very quickly. Like in Brazil, for instance, it's you people will, well, this actually blends two of the dimensions. So this example I'll talk to you about is blends the notion of pacing, but also privacy. And so in Brazil, you might talk very quickly about very personal things that you might be in, you know, whereas in another culture, like, say, Germany, it's, you're not as apt to talk about the personal side of it. of things, at least initially, and it can take a very long time in terms of the pacing.

5:23And again, there's nothing bad or good about that inherently. But what's challenging is that if you're not aware of it, you don't respect and understand it and can't step inside the logic of that culture, you can misperceive it and draw very quick conclusions about the other person. And that can be a relationship killer. So when it comes to somebody who is maybe for the first time interacting, right? There's a lot of first impression stuff. I mean, that happens no matter what in relationships, right? So is it important to make that first impression by like understanding the cultural differences, say, even in things like you mentioned small talk, for example, I mean, should I go into a meeting going, oh, I need to have a little information about, you know, this small talk that we're going to do?

6:10So, so like generic advice is always really hard, but I also think it's really important. So I'm not going to sidestep the question. So what I would say is that I think it's important to do your homework, to try to understand what might be the case in the other culture. And I really emphasize and double click on the might, because not everyone's going to be characteristic of that culture you're going to. You might go to Germany, you might go to Korea, you might go anywhere. And you might meet someone who spent like 20 years in Australia, right? Or 10 years in the US. So I think what you want to come in with is kind of like a guess, a hypothesis, and be ready to have it disconfirmed.

6:51I think it's also good to show genuine curiosity and interest. I think that travels. Genuine curiosity and interest travels. So I think those are two things. In terms of small talk in particular, we actually just published a Harvard Business Review article about small talk. In doing the book, we did a parallel study of small talk across cultures because it's so key, you know? And what we found is that small talk is, I would say, quasi-universal. It's not universal. Like, there are some cultures, some situations, like, again, in Korea, for instance, Koreans don't tend to make small talk that frequently.

7:30And certainly in a power relationship, you're not going to be making small talk with your boss, most likely, right? Whereas in other cultures, small talk is just part of the culture, like in Mexico, in Brazil, in Latin America, South America, the US, small talk is very common. And then in some other cultures, it is common, but maybe less common and so on. But the point that I want to make is that when you're doing business in a global, multicultural, cosmopolitan context with people who themselves have had exposure to different countries and cultures, you're operating under a global code, sort of, you know, so it's a little bit different.

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9:24I think a good hack actually is to be aware of the hidden bias that people might have of your culture and to try to disconfirm it, try to act kind of against it in some ways. And then also to be aware of hidden biases that you might have of other cultures. I don't think it's a problem to have to – everyone has hidden biases. That's what psychology research teaches us. We all have them. The question is how aware are we of them? And how hard do we work to really to not let them interfere with our relationship building? So increasingly, myself included, I have a small team of about 16, 17, and we are in about eight countries.

10:08And increasingly, we are trying to blend the culture. I mean, these are multicultural, but we have a culture as a business. So what are some of the actions or maybe even habits or rituals that companies, particularly since we're not getting together in meeting rooms so much anymore, can do to do what I just talked about? Take multiple cultures, use it as an asset to actually benefit the company culture. I think it's really important in the case that you're talking about with these globally distributed teams to build in time to sort of put relationship building on the agenda. If it's not on the official agenda, it's on the mind of the leader.

10:47It's on the mind of the person who's organizing the meeting, that there's time, that there's built-in time to actually build connections. And those can happen in small little bits, right? At the beginning of a meeting, they also can happen asynchronously. Like in other words, not in the meeting itself. So I'll give you an example. I have a small, very small team, and we have a certification course based on my first book, Global Dexterity, where we certify people in this idea of global dexterity. And we've created on Slack, which is a common sort of messaging and work platform. We created a channel in our workspace called, I think it's called Photos and Fun or something like that.

11:27And that very quickly became the most popular channel. And people sort of on an asynchronous way were posting pictures. I mean, it took a little courage to get it kickstarted, but after a while, it became a great place because then people would refer to that even in our live calls and so on. And so I think that, I think on a team like you're talking about, I think that's really important. I think also showing respect to, you know, showing respect to people in another culture of their time zone, even, which is, you know, like that not all the meetings prioritize the American time zone, the East coast time zone, let's say.

12:05And, you know, and that's a very common default on a team. And that can cause a lot of, you know, sort of latent frustration and anger. So what I hear you, I think I hear you saying is that a lot of this team building, as people maybe called it at some point, really the focus is to get deeper engagement than just like, here's the agenda for the meeting, or here's what we want to accomplish in next month's rollout or whatever the topic may be. So you're talking about intentionally going beyond kind of the surface. Yeah. And there's a real reason for that, because I think that increases the odds that you're going to have trust.

12:41Yeah. You know, and when you do have, so when someone does do something that kind of disconfirms your expectations, if someone does deviate, it's maybe built on a solid foundation of trust and connection. So that doesn't ruin the relationship, but that might even inspire a conversation. And since people already have some degree of connection, the cultural differences can potentially actually be a source of learning, you know, as opposed to, you know, a ticking time bomb. And that's why I think that the relationship building ends up being really critical. Well, I'm probably going to venture outside of your thesis in your book, but I want to go down just a little bit of a different path.

13:26There's no question we are a global economy. People are, you know, what you're talking about in your book is important for anybody in a career. But we're also maybe at a point in history where there's a little bit of nationalization going on as opposed to globalization. What impact do you think that current political, which, again, I'm not saying it's everywhere, everyone. But that current political trend, if you will, is impacting this idea. Say more about what you mean by nationalism. Just a little bit of the, you know, you see, I'll use the United States, for example, but there are certainly some European countries that are going through that right now.

14:04A move towards the right that does include a little bit of, you know, American made and, you know, don't go outside the borders and, you know, a little bit of that. Well, I just heard this morning, actually, on the radio, and this is, of course, I don't know when people will listen to this, but I just heard this morning that the Netherlands, I didn't know much about the politics in the Netherlands, but there's sort of an anti-immigrant bent to the current policies right now in 2024 in March. And ASML, which is one of the biggest companies in Europe and one of the most important companies in the world, actually, in the semiconductor industry, is thinking of leaving the Netherlands.

14:41So there you go. So, you know, I think that I mean, I think that there's I think that the nationalism that you do see, like, you know, America first made in America, anti-immigrant and so on. You know, I mean, this is just my opinion, but around it runs counter to the history of this country, which is born on immigrants. You know, all of us are immigrants, right? Who knew? So every one of us, not every one of us, I suppose, the Native Americans and their ancestors, but everyone else are immigrants. And so I think that's really important to remember. And I think that countries that, this is my opinion, but I think that the countries who recognize that and recognize that power of diversity, recognize the potential benefits to their workforce, I think that's just going to be a source of strength.

15:29And it ultimately is a liability, I think, economically. No question. That's my two cents. Anyway, so talk to the millennials or I don't know, they're getting old now, the Gen Z that could look at this as, would you look at this as mastering these skills as a career skill that somebody should add to just like programming language? I think so. I think part of the problem is that a lot of this stuff, you know, I'm in psychology, I have a PhD in organizational behavior and psychology and people will often say, oh, it's really squishy, you know, and let's say MBA students, they maybe want to avoid our classes and take sort of the STEM classes and the hardcore quant classes.

16:12But what's funny is that when they come back for executive education, it's not the STEM classes they're looking for. It's the leadership classes. And it's all the people stuff. Because, you know, what people realize is that in order to get that first job, you do need those quant skills, you need those hard skills. But to keep your job, to succeed at your job, to all that stuff, it's the softer stuff. So it's softer, it sounds pejorative. It's more the subtler stuff. It's more the interpersonal stuff. And so that's why I think that stuff is critical. I try to, that's part of my mission. I want to try to help people.

16:46And that's the entire reason that I write books. So I could, as a professor, you know, I'm a tenured professor, I could just continue writing articles in the dusty shelves of academic journals, but that's not my purpose, right? I want to try to actually impact people in the world and give people resources like that. So that's, I really actually strongly believe in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you call it the softer things. I think it's really just developing a level of self-awareness is really where it starts if you're going to be a leader. So Andy, I appreciate you stopping by the Ductate Marketing Podcast.

17:18You want to tell people where they might find more about you, your work, and obviously forging bonds. Yeah, sure. So I guess the easiest place is either my website or LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Andy Malinsky, and my website's andymalinsky.com. So pretty easy. Maybe it'll be in the show notes and you can find me there and you know kind of go from there awesome again appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road