Redefining Success In Sales With The Unsold Mindset

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0:52Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Chance and my guests, that's right, plural, are Garrett Brown and Colin Coggins. They are the best-selling co-authors of The Unsold Mindset, Redefining What It Means to Sell. They're both longtime sales leaders, practitioners, and professor of entrepreneurship at the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business. Apparently, you two met at an enterprise startup software called Bidium, which helped lead an acquisition to buy Google, I should say. And they're both investors, startup advisors, and co-founders of Agency 18, a firm that helps mission-driven companies adopt the unsold mindset.

1:36So, Colin and Garrett, welcome to the show. Thanks, John. You got it all there. Yeah, I did. Probably only one of you is a professor of entrepreneurship, but now you believe them. Well, we do everything together. So we preach together. We've got our final tonight, actually, and we will be up there in front of those students side by side, just as we are here in this conversation. Awesome. Awesome. So I'll get the easy question out of the way. And typically a title has, for most books, has something that needs to be defined. So let's start with what is, in your words, the unsold mindset? I can go first on this.

2:12Our journey to write this book was a really interesting one because we thought that we were interviewing sort of the greatest salespeople on the planet. And we wanted to know why they were so good. And what we soon found out, which is something that mirrored what we had seen in our careers up to this point, is that the greatest salespeople were the exact opposite of who people thought they were. And they didn't always have sales in their title. And so as we were interviewing and as we were cross-referencing what we were hearing with people and what we were seeing in the space as practitioners, they all had something really obvious in common, which was that they were unsold on who society expected them to be in their roles.

2:51They were unsold on who customers wanted them to be. They were unsold on how they were supposed to act. This idea that they could be great at selling without becoming someone they weren't was something that was very near and dear to their heart. And then meanwhile, Garrett and I have been teaching and working for decades. And what we were finding was that people thought that in order to be a great salesperson, you needed to act like a great salesperson. And what we found out was that great salespeople are actually unsold on what the definition of a great salesperson is. So in a lot of ways, you're actually juxtaposing this idea with what everybody thinks of selling.

3:29I mean, obviously, unsold is the opposite of sold. And so everybody talks about, I'm terrible at sales. I hate selling. I hate to be sold. I mean, those are all kind of drawn from that stereotype, aren't they? That's exactly it. And Colin said, we started out writing what we thought was a book about the mindset about great salespeople. But as we started interviewing them and we would ask them, you know, who's the greatest salesperson, you know, we want to talk to them. Immediately, they were giving us names of people that were not salespeople. It was marketers and CEOs and actors and military generals and artists and everything in between.

4:04So we've got a wide scope of people represented in this mindset that are not salespeople. In fact, most of them are because we're all selling every day, right? Yeah. I mean, I tell, you know, I talked to a lot of people getting ready to start businesses and I advise them. And I, you know, I've kind of gone to saying, look, I hate to tell you this, but 50 % of your job is selling. So I don't know what you're doing, what you're starting, what it is, who you're going to, you know, just deal with that because that's what it, that's what the job really is, isn't it? Well, that's what the interesting part is that you had to make the caveat.

4:32Like I hate to tell you, right? Right, right, right. Deal with that. Right. And so Garrett and I, so we fell in love with this profession once we realized what it could be versus what we thought it was and how much it's given to us. And so this understanding that everybody is selling themselves or an idea or someone else's idea. And we teach the only sales mindset class for entrepreneurs and all of higher education that we know of. But the reason that people are showing up every Monday to this class isn't because they want to be quote unquote salespeople. They don't realize it yet, but a third of them want to sell ideas.

5:07They're the future CEOs and entrepreneurs and marketers, you got a third of them want to sell themselves. They want to build relationships. They also want to be leaders. They also want to be entrepreneurs, but they also want to be able to have people like have agency in their decisions. And people feel like they're in control of that decision to want to go and fight for their leader, right? Like these are like, people talk about sales. And then you got the third, they're the crazy ones like us, where we actually sell products and services. I'm kidding. Obviously, this idea that we all sell in some capacity isn't new.

5:39The idea that we all sell and it's not a yucky word and that you can't change the world, you can't change your world, you can't do anything of immense proportion and meaning if you don't know how to move people. That's not yucky. If everybody had this myth of what I'm supposed to be or how I have to change myself when I'm selling, what's the superpower that you actually need to have? Well, good news is there's an entire book about that. But no, the main thing that all these people have in common is that they don't buy into the box that they're supposed to fit into. And we all have a box that we think we're supposed to fit into, whether it's when we're selling or our work box.

6:22This is who we are at work. This is who we are as a parent. And all of these people were incredible at stepping outside of that box and doing things their own way. Whether it was the traditional salesperson who, you know, bucked the system and said, you know what, I don't have to ask the questions that are in this script, or I don't have to sound like a typical salesperson sounds. I can sound like the person that I am at the bar on Friday night with my friends, with my customers, and they'll still love me. Or, you know, Colin, you talk about intentional ignorance, which is a chapter in our book about all of these great sellers, and we'll call them sellers, no matter what you do, they would intentionally ignore parts of their job that they didn't think served them, that they didn't think that they were either strong at, that they weren't passionate about, because they knew that they would come across differently to their customers or to the people that they were trying to inspire or influence by pretending that they were excited about these things.

7:12Yeah, it's a hyper-authenticity conversation, but there's common threads that sort of tie the whole book together. Like, it's easier to tell somebody, you know, be authentic. Whenever Garrett and I tell a student to be authentic, they go, okay, I'm going to act authentic. It's like this funny joke, like, no, you don't get it. Like we're not asking you to act authentic. But what we found was that these great salespeople like are really good at one thing, like better than most people have ever even thought to be good at it, which is like putting their imperfections on display as early as possible for no other reason than to make sure that the people understand they're a human being.

7:53Now, the byproduct of that is very simple. People like themselves. So as soon as someone can see themselves in you, right, that is when you catch a vibe. That's when you start looking for the good in people. That's when you start believing in them. Most of us are trying to be a really great version of ourselves when we get in these selling situations. But the greatest salespeople on the planet, they come in pretty raw, pretty vulnerable, pretty authentic, just to make sure that you see yourself in them immediately. I imagine when you explain that to people really almost as a technique, if you will, it's sort of counterintuitive, isn't it?

8:31I mean, it's like, oh, no, I'm supposed to have the answers. You know, how can I let my flaws show? Like, I'm sure once you do it a time or two, and it works because people connect at a much deeper level, it probably gets easier. But initially, isn't that a little tough for people? And I know that's the whole basis of what you're trying to sell here, if you will. You're not wrong. We were just in office hours with a student who he's, he started his own business. He's starting to have conversations with potential customers and potential employees. And he's really nervous. He's like, I, you know, I don't want to just be myself.

9:06I feel like they're going to think I'm just a student. And so kind of tying back to what Colin just said, one of the things we are a piece of advice that we always give, no matter what your job is, when you're in a selling situation is to show your work. So you remember like in school, in math class, you wouldn't just get credit for the answer. You had to show how you got to the answer. That's how I got there, right? What's that? Chat GPT. That's how I got the answer, right? I might get the answer sometimes. But when you let people into your world and you show your work, and we told this student, we said, tell these people that.

9:40Tell them that you're a little bit nervous and you don't want to come across a certain way and let them into that. then suddenly they're looking for the good in you just as much as you're looking for the good in them. A real game changer when it comes to that stuff. So, so you're right to some people. They're like, I can't be authentic while I'm selling. I have to be selling. I have to do this. I have to do that. But that's exactly what these people taught us. And exactly what the book is about, which is you don't, people don't want a sales robots. Why the stereotype exists. They want a human being who they're going to enjoy spending time with and doing business with in the long run.

10:10And to put that in like clearer terms, like as clear as I can make them, people will say no to because you're right. You want to see the greatest salesperson in any room, look for the smartest person in the room that's actively trying to figure out how not to be the smartest person in the room. It's cliche. It's like it's a learner versus a knower. And it sounds very obvious, but great salespeople are really good at asking questions that they actually want to know the answers to, as opposed to what most people do, which are either asking leading questions or asking questions to lead them to a goal.

10:43You start asking questions to people that you actually want all the answers to, you'll eventually ask a question no one's ever heard before. Now you're giving people gifts, right? They're like ideating for the first time in real time. Like, damn, I never thought about that before. You know what? Whatever that answer is, they will take ownership in that answer, right? Like that's their answer. That's that agency that we're talking about, that they feel like they're part of the decision-making process. Someone tells you every objection that you had, they handle. Every reason that you don't want to buy is irrelevant.

11:12And now you're backed up in a corner and all of the reasoning is accurate, but you've got this gut feeling. You're like, all right, I'm just going to say no, but I don't know why. The reason is because I do not feel like I'm part of this decision. You didn't need me to be here to make the decision. And therefore I'm going to say no, even though I can't articulate why, that's why. It's a lack of agency. Yeah. I actually had this exact question down. Ask questions people haven't heard before. And you touched on that. And I will say in my own experience, we sell marketing strategy. Nobody wants marketing strategy or they all need it, but nobody wakes up and says, I'm going to go buy it.

11:46And so by being the person that asked him, it's like, why hasn't any other marketing person asked me that before? I've seen it countless times. The mind just starts spinning. It's almost the opposite of what you said, Colin. They're like, I need to buy from this guy because I'm not really even sure why yet, but, you know, but because, you know, he's actually making me think of my business in different ways, you know, it's really turning something on. Yeah. You're getting to something that we could talk for hours and hours on, which is asking questions. And we call those questions that you're talking about, we call them impactful questions, right?

12:23Because so many of the questions that people ask in a business setting or in a selling setting are designed to extract value. You know, tell me what your budget it is. Give me your sales process, whatever it is you're taking. But these great question askers, they're adding value with the questions that they ask. And to Colin's point about agency, it's suddenly things are becoming their idea because they're thinking about something for the first time in real time and making decisions on, oh, I want to learn more about that, or I want to do this, or I want to do that. And then the important thing, the real difference maker, though, is that these people are asking these questions because they genuinely want to know the answers to them.

13:00They're not asking them as a tactic. They're not going, oh, I've got a good question that's going to get somebody to do something. They genuinely want to know the answer. And by caring differently, they're coming across differently. The follow-up question is the question that suddenly becomes magic because now you're listening to the answer. They care about what's been said. They ask a question that followed up that the person's never been asked before. And that's what's really special about these people with this unsold mindset. Well, and what I find is that when you do land on that, you're actually providing value right then because you asked that question.

13:31And I think that's, you know, you know, people talk about consultative selling. That's kind of a term that gets bantered around. And I think it's really, for a lot of people, it's, it's no more than saying I have, I've seen this before. I have the answer for you. And I think what you're, you know, you really talk, it's almost like coaching selling, you know, you're coaching through some problems, you know, that people hadn't thought about. But I do want to hit on the point that you said, it actually really is because you care. It's not like I've got a trick up my sleeve. Yeah. I mean, the caring thing is honestly the wrinkle in it all is that we all know what it feels like to talk to somebody that's looking for the good in us.

14:14You know what that feels like. So I mean, the baseline of this conversation is that you move differently when you're enamored with the person that you're talking to. And as we move through life, especially in our careers, we forget that. And either we're accidentally falling in love with someone because they're so perfect for what we care about that we can't help but be enamored. But then there are these great salespeople that will intentionally start to look for the possibility of who these people could be. There's an old sales method where you do the three by three. You look at three things that you could leverage in a conversation.

14:50Like, hey, I read that you just acquired so-and-so and we can help with that. Garrett and I, we like to make people really uncomfortable. So we'll tell people, go ahead and find three things that you could love about this person. You've never spoken to them before, but hypothetically, go out there and research them. And if it were true, what are three things that you could love about them? And what ends up happening is you see these people within three minutes, they have these questions that they need answers because they're not sure if the person that they're going to meet is actually who they hope they are or not.

15:21So you'll get on a call and you'll see it. They'll ask the same question that everyone asks. And then the second question is a question that a lot of people have never heard before. I'll cut to the short version of this. We did a consulting agreement a while ago with a group and there was a gentleman that was doing really well on the sales force and then everyone else was not. And we asked them to fall in love with a prospect, right? Like a lead. And he was like, I'm not doing it. I don't need it. Right? Like, look at my numbers. I'm fine. We're like, yeah, just do it for everyone else. And he's like, no, we're like, why?

15:57And he's like, because it's an unqualified lead. We're like, you know what? You don't have to take the lead. Just do the three by three falling in love exercise, you know, and then we'll give it to a newbie. And so he's doing this exercise, you know, begrudgingly. And then all of a sudden, like he looks up and he goes, huh? And we all watch him. We're like, what? And he's like researching this lead. And he goes, the guy graduated around the same time I did. And so we're like, oh, you must love that. You love that he's the same age as you. And he's like, no. We're like, okay. Keeps going. You hear the second, huh?

16:27And we're like, what is it? He's like, this guy went to the university of Minnesota. I'm like, you love the university of Minnesota? No. Okay. And then, you know, one more second, looks back up and he goes, but Bob Dylan went to the University of Minnesota. And yes, I love Bob Dylan. Also happens to be around my age. And you watch this, like his eyes, like they turn into something else where when it's time, three minutes shut, let's take this lead now, give it to a newbie, see what happens because you proved our point. Great, right? We're good now. Not a chance. He's not letting somebody else take that lead.

17:01He has questions he needs to know the answers to. This guy shows up on this call and you've never seen two people catch a vibe so quickly, not because they were the same age, not because they both liked Dylan, but because this guy was asking questions that no one else cared to ask. And so, you know, that's a, that's a skill to care about someone in a way that most people don't. That's a talent. It is. And for people listening, like think we all know how it feels to be in a conversation with somebody who genuinely cares about us. And we all know how we sound different when we genuinely care about the person.

17:34Like think about that conversation that Colin just talked about conversation, somebody who might have seen Bob Dylan while he was in his college years versus, oh, I'm just going to call the 28th name on this list of 50 people that I have to talk to that day. You are going to sound very different if you have done the work that Colin just talked about. And now let's hear a word from our sponsor. You know, companies are under pressure right now. I mean, pressure to get more leads, close deals faster, get better insights to create the best experience for customers. A CRM can help, but not just any CRM.

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19:34Check it out at dtm.world slash certification. That's dtm.world slash certification. You know, 100 % agree. In the back of my mind, I'm saying some people just don't have that gift, that talent, that empathy, that whatever you want to call it. I mean, they don't care. I mean, is that person, is that something somebody can learn? Or is that something that like that ship sails at some point? Everybody cares about something. Now they could be horrible human beings and care about the wrong stuff. You know, and then who am I to say what's wrong? Right. But, but that, I think that's the point, you know, every, who people expect you to be and who people hope you aren't always the same person.

20:18Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, like maybe you suck you know like maybe like you're maybe you're not nice and you're not kind and and you don't care about things that are important but whatever you do care about like whatever's most important to you you'll ask a question that someone's never heard before now the answer to that question might be something that they still take ownership in and ideate for the first time and take agency in but it might not help your point but it doesn't matter at the end of the day, like if you start asking questions that you really want to know the answers to, people will surprise you.

20:54Yeah. If nothing else, the connection will be made, right? I mean, look, here's an example. During the height of lockdown during COVID, like we saw a group of underperformers do really well. And historically they didn't. And when we went back and watched the tape and figured out why they weren't doing well, it was, I mean, why they were doing well, it was because the beginning of their conversations all sounded the same and they were across multiple different verticals okay so these were not all the same people in all the same roles but they were all doing well because the beginning of the conversation was hey i just want to pause really quick and just acknowledge the elephant in the room or the two year old in the room and that's my wife right with the mask chasing him that's the laundry station that's the homework station we have no idea what we're doing or if we should even be on this call right now.

21:41Just want to say it, you know? And you would watch this, like this reciprocation, like the person on the other end of the camera is like, thank God you said that. Like, this is so weird. This is my first pandemic too. And you would watch them catch this vibe in the first five minutes where they saw themselves in each other. That's just a microcosm of what the larger, right? The conversation we're having is, which is great salespeople know, just like these people knew. This person is not perfect either. During COVID, they were like, you know what? I'm in an imperfect situation. I'm going to give myself permission to talk about it because I know that they're in the same imperfect situation.

22:18Most of us are imperfect. Most of us, when we are being very authentic, are in a situation where we're trying to figure it out. And it's not the ideal situation always. And most of us try to hide that part of us. There's some people that share that part of themselves. Pretty hard to have your act together with the unmade bed behind you. in the zone, right? You get this camera angle. You know what I mean? You don't know what that's behind there and you don't even want to know what's behind this screen, you know? All right. So let's go to hiring. Let's say I'm a CEO and I'm like, I listen to the signs they do.

22:50That's what I want my salespeople doing. I mean, how do I spot that person? How do I, you know, look for somebody who maybe naturally has that gift, whether they have a sales resume or not? Well, I think the good news is that it's not necessarily a gift that some people have and some people don't. It's a matter of cultivating it and finding it. And so there's a couple of things that we always recommend. One as a leader is giving your people permission to be the authentic version of themselves, to look for the things that they love in the customers and to do that sort of thing. And that means, you know, not necessarily rewarding behavior that doesn't allow for those things.

23:28The other thing is setting up the infrastructure around your team to allow them to do that. So we talked about intentional ignorance before, you know, we have talked to advertising technology salespeople who hate technology, right? Their job is to sell technology, but they hate it. They don't want to talk about APIs and they don't want to talk about integrations. They just want to talk with their customers about how they can help them. And so instead of then trying to pretend, try to learn all the technology and pretend that they know it and pretend that they're excited about it, they'll bring in a resource from their company.