Trust, Storytelling, and the Future of Brands

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0:33Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ductate Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Chance. My guest today is Ernie Ross. He's a globally recognized branding strategy and innovation leader, founder of Ross Rethink and creator of the Intangents Methodology. His award-winning agency has shaped brands, political movements, and ideologies throughout the Caribbean and beyond. We're going to talk about his new book, Intangents, How Human Connection Creates Value Between People, Brands, and Ideal. So, Bernie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, John. Thank you for the opportunity. All right, so I've been in marketing a long time.

1:11And one of the things I know is that creating a new word is really hard. to take something, create it, even though if it makes complete sense to you, you still find you have to explain it a lot and have people understand it. It's like creating a new category of a product. So why'd you do it, Ernie? Why did we need a new word? And then, of course, obviously, I'd invite you to explain, what is it? What do you mean by intangence? Well, you're right. It was a challenge to define a space so exclusively that you own it. And intangible values is actually a portmanteau of the phrase intangible values and the science of human connection, or is defined as the language of human connection.

2:02I like to say there are over 7 ,000 languages spoken in the world today, but the language of human connection is not one that is often taught. Well, and I suspect trust is a giant part of it as well, right? I mean, that's one of those things that a lot of very established brands have a lot of trust with their market, with their customers. And sometimes that's hard to put, that's hard to measure. It's certainly, I think people understand it has value, but it's hard to say, oh, it's worth X. So are you suggesting that not only do we need to focus on these things, but that they might actually be more tangible than we think?

2:41Absolutely. Actually, I would go as far as saying trust is a new brand commodity. Yes. We live in a world where it's hard to determine fact from fallacy anymore. Whether it's AI generated or it's being generated by a human being that is manipulating us, that's one of our imageries on social media. So here's an example. That if you take a look at what's happening either politically or with a product or brand, it is difficult to discern whether that image or even the spokesperson is actually real. It's very difficult for us to determine that. Or in reality, if something goes wrong with a brand or a company, within a fraction of seconds or a minute, that image of those opinions, whether it be internal or external to your company, goes viral.

3:35So that we live in a world where intangible values matter more than ever. And if there's anything I want your audience to take away today, John, it is the cornerstone of the principle of intentions. And that is something only has value when it holds meaning to you. Nothing in life, whether it be a physical asset or a human relationship, is what I call derivative meaning. It only has a value because of the meaning you attribute to it. Worth, on the other hand, is a little different. Worth is what the market is willing to pay for it. But value is determined by meaning. So what determines worth? The extent to which you believe in the value, which takes you through what I call the circle of consumer sentiment back to meaning at the end of the day.

4:24That's what determines our lives. Yeah, I want to start on that point of trust a little bit because I think I read, who's the group that puts out the trust index every year, that it's an all-time low. And I think, as you mentioned, one of the things that's making it even worse is AI, to the point where I think people are actually now assuming what they're looking at is not real in a lot of instances. And so how do you cut through that? I mean, to somebody who is being real, that is very authentic, but now is kind of being lumped in with what the sentiment is, how do you break free from it? Much like any human relationship, we're measured by more than what we just offer.

5:08We're measured by what we mean to someone. And to show up authentically is ready to be true to manifesting those ideals of your brand as you would in any human relationship. Here's an example of that. You would pay around$11.5 million for a one-minute ad in the Super Bowl. transient media. And there's an ad I always like to refer to for a particular brand that I would pause after 58 seconds of its television commercial. And I would ask the audience, tell me what story is being told because you never see the product being referenced or used at all. And the ad is really about the relationship between a father and his child.

5:57The entire ad just shows fathers interacting with their children. And after 58 seconds, if you had spent$11.5 million of your client's money and said, this is what I think you should run, you'd think you were crazy. And finally, in the last two seconds, the logo comes on for Dove Men's Care. But it was more than that. You can't just tag a logo to the end of an ad like that. They launched this movement called That's Care.com, which supported paternity care for men and championed the cause of men as parents around the world. You can imagine which still value is, by the way, as a single that. So it's really about not just showing up by having an intangible value and putting it in a commercial, but manifesting that value and being true to it.

6:50In fact, Edelman just put out a report in 2024 that showed trust was the number one factor in influencing consumer decisions. And that 85 % of the market was willing to pay more premium price product that they believed in and would even be forgiving when there was an error in it. Like any human relationship, you would forgive someone you really care about if you felt they were acting in your interest. I certainly know I've done that. you know, paid more and I'm willing to pay more. And I think a lot of people are, I mean, that, you know, we're risk averse. And so a lot of cases, I think that if we know we can trust a certain brand or something, we'll just go back there because the risk, I suppose, of being let down, you know, is too high, even if it's, you know, imagined.

7:40Sure. Talk a little bit about, I mean, obviously as AI is replacing humans, or at least that's the way it's being pitched in a lot of cases. How do we make sure that we are nurturing human connection as people are feeling more and more distance from it? You're absolutely right. While I'm not a critical AI, I think it has a phenomenal impact on how we're going to develop as a species. But here's a different bit that I'd like to carve out a bit. Artificial intelligence is not artificial intelligence. It can mimic human emotions, but it cannot actually encounter and experience it. It cannot encounter love or grief or hate or anger or fear.

8:25So that's what's unique about us. If you gave me a work of art, John, and I loved it, and I said, wow, John, this is incredible, I'm going to hang it on my wall. And you said, well, it was created by artificial intelligence. It would be diminished in its value to me, or a piece of music for that matter. Those are expressions of our humanity. That's what makes us real. And nothing can mimic that. So that artificial intelligence is limited by the fact that it is not human. It cannot encounter those human emotions. And that's the space and role we will always have. Well, I agree with you thoroughly, but let me back up on that a little bit.

9:03If I think a piece of art is still a piece of art, why should it matter how it was created? Because as much as though if you had to show the whole intangible space, if there were Picasso that he had created, but he had never signed it, it would not be authentic, right? It would not have the same intangible value. So that it is determined by the ownership of an individual that has created that piece. Here's an example. You might have heard about the duct tape and the banana that was created. Yeah, of course I did. Oh, recently,$4.2 million. Or John Cage, who created four minutes to three seconds of this piece that no one plays.

9:45Those are examples of where what is authenticating and giving it value and validating it is our regard for the person who is originating the piece. But if it's done by AI, then it could be duplicated and replicated 100 times over. It's AI generated. It's not created by John. you are unique in the world so when you create a piece that is unique to the only individual that would ever exist on this planet ever again and that's what makes us unique and that's what makes the pieces created by a human unique Hey you want to keep up on all things duct tape marketing the stuff I read the books the people I interview check out the duct tape marketing newsletter every week we're going to send you out we're going to keep you up to date on what's going on in the world of marketing.

10:36And just for subscribing, you're going to get our free chat GPT prompts that will allow you or assist you in the creation of marketing strategies and plans. So check it out. It's at dtm.world slash news. That's dtm.world slash news. You started off by, or you gave the examples, the Dove Men's Care products, and really you kind of put the word in the story they were telling. I want to go back to that a little bit because I think one of the most powerful ways you can make connections is with stories. And I think a lot of marketers have woken up to that idea, certainly the last five, 10 years. So what role do you think storytelling, authentic storytelling plays in communicating what a brand stands for?

11:25Absolutely. Telling an emotionally compelling story, any narrative of that kind. makes it memorable. It connects you authentically with you. We're essentially, as human beings, sentient beings. Most of our decisions are being made by the way we feel, not by logic as much as we like to think it is. And we're engaged by stories. And it is the essence of who we are. It is what we're created of memories, memories that are made of stories. So providing a brand is embodying an intangible value woven together through an emotionally compelling story. While that is happening, that will certainly be a point of resonance.

12:09Once the shared intangible value has been embodied in that particular offering, here's an example. If you and I were going into the beverage industry, and I said, John, I've done everything with this product. I think it's going to be remarkably well. It's not particularly attractive in its color. It's black. It has no nutritional value whatsoever. and I'm not going to sell it in flavor. But I'm going to guarantee you 1.9 billion units every day around the world. You'd think I was crazy. But that's exactly what Coca-Cola does. And it's woven together by these really emotionally compelling stories that don't sell it in flavor.

12:44Taste the feeling, open happiness, real magic, all themes over the last 10 years. So if a product, a beverage, that has no nutritional value, that contains 38 grams of sugar, can be sold as an embodiment of the satisfaction for the craving of human connection. Woven together three emotionally compelling stories, I think, is the best evidence of the fact. Okay. Well, again, I agree with you, but I'm going to push back on another. They're selling poison under that, right? And so are they really manipulating people to buy a product that is really not good for them? I would suggest that's probably using what you're talking about, you know, for evil rather than for good.

13:27Very good. Absolute point. I remember I had to give a talk at the Global Happiness Summit right here in Costa Rica, the United Nations Established University for Peace. And I gave a talk on Coca-Cola. And everybody in the room was staring. I said, why are you doing that? I said, well, don't shoot the messenger. They own the space on happiness. Now, who determines whether it's manipulative or positive is based upon the lens you're filtering it through. I agree with you. But they're using techniques and devices that are so compelling that it's effective. Maybe those of us who are pushing climate change or operating an NGO could learn from some of these techniques.

14:08Because ultimately, it's determined by outcome. But if we can employ some of those techniques and devices that those big brands are using, maybe we would push the needle forward a little bit in terms of the more noble ideals and projects that we have. So you're absolutely right. It's more about how are they achieving it than whether it's being done for greater good. Yeah. So if I'm a company, you know, not of a Coca-Cola size by any means, that has been selling features and benefits, and I now think, hey, we need to change and we need to connect. We need to discover our purpose so that we can actually tell that authentic story.

14:51Where do you help people start? There are three schools of thought that make up the tangents. The first is called pillars of purpose. And it's an introspective process that asks the most three probing questions you can ask of a brand or of yourself. Question one, is who am I? Question two, and is who am I to you? Question two would be, what is my purpose? What greater purpose do I serve to you? And the last question is, how will I be remembered? What lingers with you after our interaction? Whether you see the packaging or an ad that was run, what stays with you? And out of those three are like signposts to take you to what I call the universal truth.

15:33Something that is your brand ethos that is universally accepted. As an example, if you were brand of water, it could be no one in the world should ever go thirsty. So that would be building the brand architecture in an emotional space. Notice it's not what is it, it's who am I? What is my purpose? How will I be remembered? it. And then the second school of thought is what is called currency of conversation. How do you make the message viral? How do you get the message out there? And that lands in three principles. Is the message relevant? Do I have a high regard from where I'm hearing or is coming from?

16:07And does it resonate with me at a deeply fundamental level? The final school of thought would be the science of human connection, which are the techniques and devices you're using to be able to create that connection based upon purpose, passion, or do you get a passion following, or what I call a polyphonic understanding of the marketplace. Polyphonia coming from a musical term where an instrument can play more than one note at the same time. In much the same way, you have to track what's happening with emerging trends, changes in attitudes, consumer behavior, and so on, to be able to travel ahead of your headlights, so to speak, so that you can measure the response that you need to have in your brand storytelling.

16:50You work in some different markets outside the U.S. In your view, do you think there are cultural differences in not only how people market, but how people build trust, how people get connected to brands? Absolutely. Absolutely. Each market has its own dynamics and so on. There is, however, that space that I call the universal truth, where it's all expansive regardless of what market. it. But at the end of the day, reality is really a perspective. In our offices, as you come into the building, there is a very unusual object that reinforces this. It looks like what appears to be a mirror with a crack in it, and there's a broom perched against it.

17:31A lot of people come into the office and say, why do you have this object here? And I say, you tell me. And they look at it and they talk about maybe the frailty of life. And I say, no, it's just what it looks like. and it is done by an installation done by an artist from Argentina called Leandro Ehrlich. And it's actually an illusion. He's just created an open space, put a frame of metal running across it and makes it look like a crack. He's put a broom in the front and a broom at the back. Now you can see right through this object, John, you don't see your own reflection. But nine out of 10 people stand in front of it, including me when I first got it, and see a mirror.

18:10and it's based upon the whole principle, you know, that we don't see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are. And it reinforces the idea that we have to question this version of reality. So to your point about what works in what part of the world, it's about that point. Being able to question the reality as determined by the audience that you're reaching to. What is their version of this reality before you begin to authentically connect? As you spread the word of intangence, what do you kind of hope for maybe the wider world of marketing, leadership, human behavior, for this idea to catch on.

18:46With that, I'll go to the last chapter, and I just want to read a little bit of it for you, if I may. Absolutely. And this is really to me key to what I think I'd love to take away from it. It reads, if nothing from nothing is an irrefutable law of physics, then what could possibly have first existed before anything else? In the beginning, everything was entirely intangible. This is a profound insight into the question of what first existed. And throughout the book, I demonstrate how real and powerful the world of intangibility is. As an example, if you took all the companies traded in the S &P 500, the value of it is about$28 trillion.

19:32And if you sold every physical asset, you wouldn't even get to 20 % of the$28 trillion. So it's all intangible assets and defined through an intangible meaning. So the world exists. What is one of the world's largest transportation companies? Uber. How many cars do they own? What's one of the world's largest retail companies? It's Amazon. How much mortar and stone do they actually have? And if you look at all the major brands in the world, every single one from Apple to Microsoft or to Coca-Cola, they have charts done by their accounting firms that are measuring their intangible value greater than that of their tangible value if i sold you the coca-cola company today and i give you all the factories and all the buildings and i kept the name i would be the one to win the game so it's an intangible space and so that's what i would like to take away from to recognize if you took this into a spiritual realm, if you will, and you asked the question, how did we actually begin?

20:38How did this all begin? Now, you'll get theories from scientists to religious people. But if we can agree on one principle, that is all intangible. I have a little cartoon in the book of a magician pulling things out of a hat. And it says, it can't wait, it can't be held, can't be shipped, but it exists. It's tangible. So essentially, that's what I'd like to think we are at the end of the day. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you would invite people to connect with you, find out about your work, and obviously connect with your book?

21:16Sure. It's intangents.com. It's spelled I-N-T-A-N-G-I-E-N-C.com. That's the website. And the book is available through Amazon, Walmart, Target, Indigo, and several other outlets. There are courses that are taught. There's a four - to five-minute masterclass. And there's a three-day program validated by the United Nations Established University for Peace. And in Europe, through the business school called École des Paus. So the work has been, the body of work has been given great assessment and testimonials by Harvard professors and so on. But more importantly, it's the number of people around the world, over 10 ,000 that have participated in the program.

22:02I'm humbled by the response we've got it. And I'm grateful to you, John, for giving me yet another platform to ventilate the views. You bet. Right. And we'll have a, those of you listening, we'll have a link to Intangents in the show notes as well. So, Bernie, again, I appreciate you stopping by and maybe we'll run into you one of these days in Costa Rica. I look forward to that, John. I'll be your guide for sure. Thank you so much. Cheers.