Why Great Employees Don’t Always Make Great Managers

0:00Hey, this is John. And before we get started, I have a gift for you for being such an amazing listener. Everyone's talking about AI these days, but most of it's about tactics. We've created a series of prompts we use to create strategy, and you can have them for free. Just go to dtm.world slash free prompts and grab yours. Now let's get started.

0:32Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jansen. My guest today is Ashley Hurd. She's the founder of Manager Method and a former head of HR for McKinsey. Known for a practical real-world approach to leadership, helps managers build their skills they need to lead, constantly support their teams and get results without burning people out. We're going to talk about her new book, The Manager Method, a practical framework to lead, support and get results. So Ashley, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, John. So glad to be here. Love the podcast. So most of the managers I know have become managers by accident.

1:13That's, you know, typical company. It's like, you're the best salesperson. You're now the sales manager. So what do you see? What problems do you see that dynamic kind of creates for organizations? Is there a better, more practical way to actually create managers? I think there is. One is that's often the case in sales is the perfect example of that because it is the place where I think it can be the hardest mindset. Maybe marketing too, because it's very creative. But when you have sales in particular, you're super competitive. You know, you're used to be a number one. All of a sudden you're promoted to sales manager, often because organizations think, They're great.

1:47They'll teach everybody win-win. We're going to turn everyone into little versions of them. Then all of a sudden, they become a manager. They're not used to sharing their tips. They don't remember how they first got started. They're coaching poor performers that they have no empathy for whatsoever. And now they're dealing with time off issues, people issues, all of these people things. It often that win-win really quickly becomes a lose. And so I do think it's important for organizations to really think about career paths. I mean, sales is one in particular. Now, I think you see plenty of individuals that have been an individual contributor in sales and have thrived in it or that have gone into a sales manager role and happily gone back into an individual contributor role.

2:26And so some of it is thinking about who really is interested in becoming a manager, but developing people and giving them the tools. The first tale of the oldest time I see is people promoted just because they're good at their job. The second is people promoted and then you don't get any sort of resources and training to actually know how to coach and delegate, understand why those matter and how to do them and how to think about the people issues that all of a sudden they're popping up that you have no idea what to do with. I don't know if you're a baseball fan, but this is a really common thing in a lot of sports.

2:56The best managers were never the best players. They were usually like second string catcher that just like watch the game and saw every angle of the game. You know, but the superstars actually didn't make great managers because they were used to having everybody carry their bags, for example. So does that dynamic kind of play out in the manager in a business? It does. And it's the same when you see that with coaches. The other day I was just watching Packers Bills. And so they said neither Josh Allen nor Aaron Rodgers. they hadn't even as individual contributors, they hadn't gotten D1 scholarships.

3:28So people can be developed over time and managers, you absolutely see that. And so I think that absolutely resonates because one of the things that I say sometimes, one is if you're thinking about becoming a manager, go in your local community Facebook group and just look at the discussions that go on and think, would I want to manage those people in the workplace? And if you have some interest in it, then you're probably set out to be a manager because you're going to work with those different people dynamics. But the second is what's important to you? Is it your gold stars, your recognition, or is it about your teams?

4:01Because I actually think it's really okay for a lot of people, they realize through this process how much individual recognition means to them. And that's where it can be important to that as a manager, you can really shift. And so all of a sudden giving people, giving other people kudos, talking about their names, a really easy trap for people is to think, well, if I start doing that, all of a sudden I'm not needed. And they don't realize that one of the best things that can happen is for senior leaders to know all different names of the people on your team. And they come first to mind rather than you, because you're creating those pathways and getting the results that matter and building those careers as well.

4:38This is ostensibly a marketing show, but I have, you know, anything that has to do with business, you know, to me relates to marketing. So I have a lot of leadership book authors. I have a lot a management book, authors on this show. So when you set out to write this book, did you say to yourself, here's the gap that I'm going to fill? Like, here's what nobody else has figured out, written about? Well, of course I did, because everyone thinks that way, John. But what I saw, you know, my path was a little unique. I started in sales. I actually started, like when I talk about sales, I was in a very high pressure corporate sales role, cold calling CFOs to start with long before I went into legal and HR.

5:11And so I have a sense of what it can be like working in some of those different functions. But what I saw frequently, you know, whether sales or legal or HR was often it wasn't managers doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing necessarily. It was managers that didn't know what to do. And so they weren't giving feedback to their team members. They weren't having conversations. They really weren't. And so what I set out to do was really help have a practical way to think about your team, think about results, but also give ideas of what to do and say in situations. That can be a lot easier for someone to take an example and put that into their own voice.

5:47And that's the gap that I was really trying to fill with the manager method. So I often say this about a lot of situations that the key to success is usually expectations. And you write in the book about the idea that clear expectations, you know, is one of the foundational elements. But that's one of those things that you can say clear expectations. And that's going to mean a hundred things to a hundred different people, right? And most of us probably just have our default. It's like, well, yeah, I told him to get the job done. Wasn't that clear? Right. So how do you help people kind of become clear when their kind of default personality is, well, doesn't everybody get it?

6:26It's great. I mean, I think clear expectations is very similar to strategic and these terms that people are told you need to do, especially as a manager, whether you're hiring your first team member or you have a group. But clear expectations, I think it's really important to break that down into a conversation. And so ways I do that, and one resource that you'll see on the site as part of the book, is to have that conversation with your teams of literally breaking it down. This is how your role plays into the overall organization. If you do well in it, this is how it impacts others. And if you don't, for some reason, this is how it impacts others as well.

7:00Now, clear expectations, this is whether you can quantify things. Like if you're in sales, for example, like, okay, your book is, you're supposed to bring in 750K a year. And that's where a lot of sales leaders and pitchers, stop. They give you your goal. You move on with life. Okay, now I'm going to scramble and do everything I can, call every relative I've ever heard of to try to make that happen. But so the part of clear expectations is that conversation of here are things you can do. Here are tips from others. This is what you can figure out for yourself. And this is the support that you'll have.

7:29It's putting the layers beneath that. To say to someone, for example, if on Monday, okay, your goal is 15K this week to bring it in. And then it's having the conversation and saying, so what are you going to be doing on Tuesday? What's Wednesday going to look like? And what about Thursday that can make that happen? What could possibly get in the way that could hurt that? What can you do to prevent that? And so it's having some of those additional questions and conversation to really have it bring it to life rather than just saying the goal and having them figure out the what, where, how, how, why, and everything else in between.

7:59And that kind of goes both ways though, right? I mean, it's on that person who's being told what the expectation is to say, that's not realistic, right? And to have that dialogue. And I think that's where sometimes I know in my own experience where, you know, I've set what I thought were clear expectations. The person on the other side is sitting there thinking, wait, it's going to happen. They don't tell me. And so all of a sudden, again, it's like neither of us are meeting the right expectations. I think it's true. And I've seen it in some ways. Like when I was a lawyer, for example, people would say this and say, OK, we need this contract.

8:30We need this contract, you know, negotiated right now today. We need it signed. I say, okay, well, this other side's had it for about two months and you're giving it to me. And again, what I can do, is this really important to move around or not? What also is in little teeny tiny print at the bottom that you don't see, because like the CEO says it's important. I'm like, okay, but we also want to have credibility. And so if all of a sudden we're turning things around, it can make us look, whether it's desperate or now this is something that's not a priority, it's being able to have those conversations.

8:56And for me, some of the best working environments, whether it's a small team or large, is being able to have that two-way street and talk about what else is going on and not just saying yes and sacrificing your life to get it done. So you just slipped in another career, actually. How many careers have you had? Well, in the book, John, I call it a career quilt. I mean, those that, especially those, you know, those that are working with your fractional CMO agency system and that, you know, people often, and now more than ever, I do think are trying to figure out what do I want to do when I grow up?

9:27Whether you are five years old or you are 75 years old and trying to figure those things out. And so, you know, I had, I probably thought for a while I would be a lawyer, but it was the things that I learned, you know, right now what I do is, you know, I post videos on social media because I have thick skin from cold calling CFOs. And so those comments don't hurt me like they may not have if I didn't get hung up on the phone by CFOs. But so having that background of legal where things go wrong, sales of understanding revenue and the pressures people are under in HR about really how to harness the power of people and the importance on people's work and life.

10:02Those have led me to where I am today, my very unique career quilt. Hey, you want to keep up on all things duct tape marketing, the stuff I read, the books, the people I interview. Check out the duct tape marketing newsletter. every week. We're going to send you out. We're going to keep you up to date on what's going on in the world of marketing. And just for subscribing, you're going to get our free chat GPT prompts that will allow you or assist you in the creation of marketing strategies and plans. So check it out. It's at dtm.world slash news. That's dtm.world slash news. So let's get down to one of the, probably the biggies for a lot of managers, the one-on-one meeting.

10:49And I hate to do this, but I'm just going to use myself as like you're a bad example for, you know, how to fix this. But, you know, a lot of my one-on-ones end up turning into status reports. You know, it's like, here's all the stuff. Oh, where are we on this? Where are we on this? And then there's no time for like, what do you want out of your career? You know, kind of conversation. So how important is it that you have those separate meetings, that you have that one-on-one that really drives engagement? I think a one-on-one is really important to get work done. And it's so much more important for your team member than you sometimes realize.

11:21What I see frequently in my very scientific comments on social media, if I do a video on one-on-ones, people will say, I don't even know what that is. My manager never shows up to them. Or if they show up, they're 25 minutes late to a 30-minute meeting. And so for team members, it actually really is a signal. If you as a manager, you make that time and you show up on time or an emergency or it sends such a strong signal, just that aspect alone. Because often your team members, especially if it's really stretched out your one-on-one time, they may have 37 things on their list and they're just dying to get through it.

11:54But it really is a balance. One thing that can help is having whether it's a shared agenda or a shared document between those. So the status, because it is important to know where things are. But if you use that, and it can take habits to get into it and use it both ways, so the employee's adding information and the manager's actually looking at it in advance, then you can knock out a lot of that normal back and forth of where are things, what should we do next, and put that into more of the document, talk through any call-out areas. But on the flip side, it would also feel super awkward every week to have your manager say, look, what do you want in your career?

12:26You're like, well, I've had the same job for three and a half years and my answer's the same that it's been since 2021. 21, but is to think about having some of those questions. And that's why I can help to say things like, what's something that you could use some advice on? Or as a manager, here's a decision I'm making. What are your, I'd love your takes on it. Because a lot of times when you get into leadership, you can feel really alone because outside of your organization, you might have a network, you might not. But if you talk to your team members and open up about your reality, the decisions you're making, maybe things you're struggling with and get their thoughts, they're likely to tell something at some point that you haven't thought of before, but you're also, that can help with career development much more than a more forced conversation.

13:08So somewhat related feedback, both good and bad that we should provide. Hopefully we are providing. Do you have kind of a framework for the way to give honest feedback that doesn't put people immediately on the defensive? So in the book, I actually have the framework, this pause, consider, act framework, a three-part framework for any decision as a manager. And what that means is pause to just whether it's taking a beat. One of the biggest issues I see as a manager is thinking you have to know all the answers and just going straight ahead and reacting in the moment. But sometimes it's taking that pause, but also consider and act.

13:42And so frequently what I see of people not giving either more critical feedback or more positive, the critical feedback is they don't want to, it sounds so mean, it feels so awkward. In the consider aspect and think, you know, that's a lot about yourself. You're more worried about yourself and how you'll be perceived. But think on the flip side, especially you may have, like, let's say you have a team member and you're like, they've been doing this for years. No one has told them this. Why would I say something now? But think to the flip side of this is someone that could have used this feedback years ago.

14:11If you can be the person that delivers that, that can change the course of the rest of their career and be the person that they really look to as a leader. And so instead of focusing so much on how it feels, think about that person. What do you want? If they're making mistakes, if they're missing deadlines, how can you also ask questions to get their perspective? And that's a really important one before you go in. A lot of times people make assumptions, but thinking about the questions that you can ask that you maybe don't know the information to, and then delivering that and telling people sometimes, especially if it's someone that's not used to hearing that feedback, or you can tell, you know, they kind of get emotional, is saying to them, I'm giving this because I care about you in this job, in your career.

14:48And it's really important for me to work with you on things, not to come down at you, not to beat you down, but to really build you up. And some of that is hearing perspectives from others. And there's ways you can say that and people can always find their own voice. There may be listeners that hear this that think, I don't know how I would possibly say that. And that's where even like AI tools can help to say, this is how I don't normally talk so corny. How can I say this in a way that feels natural? But really shifting the focus from yourself to that person. And the other is positive feedback.

15:16I frequently hear and people more think about how hard it is to get critical feedback, but people don't realize how rare it is for others to hear recognition at work. Or if you're in a meeting and someone says something about a team member, going and telling that team member or bringing them into that meeting. I mean, those are the moments that don't happen enough that really matter. And you can make a real impact on that person's job today and career. It's become, I don't know if fastball is the right word, but you hear the word a lot, a coach. Does a manager today need to think of themselves as more of a coaching role or is that kind of over the top trendy?

15:53I do. Well, I laugh because I worked at Yum Brands, KFC as part of my career. And they actually call like bosses or managers, coaches. That's it. And so I'll see that sometimes on social media and like, you know, you remember it. And that's more of a formalized way. But I do think so. It's, and people can have different ways. I prefer the terms leaders or coaches to bosses or managers sometimes because it just changes the dynamic. I mean, I think often as you think about the org chart, the best leaders or coaches are the ones that focus on driving the performance of those that are beneath them on the org chart, so to speak.

16:25And if you flip that and think rather than managing people and controlling them, but really helping them have the ideas and have the performance and grow, and you can coach them into those opportunities, then because they're the ones that are actually going to do the work. I mean, just like the baseball field, they're going to be the ones hitting the home run and going around the bases or striking out every time. And so using your feedback and communication to impact that, I really think can have the most lasting impact and have more lasting results. I'll tell you, I don't know where I learned this, but years ago, somebody told me, just try this next time somebody comes to you as a manager with, what should I do in this situation?

17:04And I just say, I don't know, what would you do? And it's just like, amazing. They have the answer, but they want you to give it to them or something. the, you know, I don't know, but that one thing alone, you know, has changed how it means completely. It's the simplest thing in the world. It's the simplest thing, but it doesn't, it really doesn't, it doesn't happen. It truly doesn't happen enough. And the flip to that, to one thing to know is, is if you're senior to them, sometimes people will get irritated and they'll say, well, you're my, you're the boss. You make more than me. You should. Or just tell me what to do.

17:34I don't want to think. Yeah, just tell me. I don't want to make another decision. Well, I don't either. Well, you know, so we'll both just sit here, but, or stand here. But I think saying, you know, I'd love to hear it. I'm happy to give my input and it's for you, but I want you to feel like you can try new things and have ideas. And we may not adopt every one, but it's really important that you feel like you can share those because the most unhealthy cultures I've seen, especially when you have like group meetings, is people that will not speak up. If you have a CYA culture where people are more afraid of getting in trouble or saying the wrong thing because they've personally seen, you know, people get ridiculed or seen others, you know, there's plenty that think that you've, you have to have that really hard culture, but that really impacts, you know, how people feel today impacts how they work tomorrow and how many days and years thereafter that they want to stay with your organization.

18:22And so I think giving people that room, I think that's, I love, I'm all about those really simple, but powerful tips. So are there any misses or like, let's just say one, is there one myth that you'd say that's like commonly taught all the time? And I want to debunk that with this book. But one thing, I talk about the role of HR. So I'm a little different than I was a lawyer and then I went into HR. You sometimes see the flip. But what I frequently see is HR is not your friend. And on one hand, I'll say that I agree with that. I agree with that myth. But part of that is because HR in an organization, especially if you're growing and having that support, they shouldn't be your enemy.

18:59If you have any function in your organization that people only go to or only think about when things are going wrong, then that's really a symptom, an unproductive and unhealthy culture overall. And so if you can flip it and think about everyone in your organization of how they can support other people. And so HR individuals who are often thought of as like, get the pay right and get people's paperwork set up. But if you can take HR and have HR help people, whether it's managers, whether it's team members on your team, help them to work better and learn how to communicate and they can really drive that.

19:31That can take a lot of pressure off you no matter what your role is in the organization and just create a completely different culture. I bet you the HR folks would like that too, right? Because they're seen as like you go to them because of administrative paperwork or because your exit interview or like nothing pleasant, right? It's like, oh, you're going to the principal's office. It is. It is. It is, John. It's, you know, it's we're trying to show we're not all we're not all we're not all scary. So the book is full of templates, scripts. Is there one you want to just tease out there to say, like, go grab this either from the book or on your website and here are the steps that you ought to follow and why they matter?

20:09Yeah. One thing is if you're looking for resources, especially if you have a group of managers or, you know, even non-managers of your team, you're trying to, you know, have a quick development exercise on the website. So managermethod.com slash book, we'll have a book discussion guide. So you can use that for conversations with your team. And one thing I'll tease in that is, one tip is to think about is like, if you're hiring someone, if you brought on a team member, or even if someone's been there for a while, did you tell them why they got the role and what uniquely made them stand out? Or did they just get their, you know, offer letter and paperwork?

20:41Because taking that pause to tell somebody, really, this is what we saw in you, why we're so excited to have you join. Specifically, not just we're excited to have you join, but this is why. that can help change dramatically how they are from day one and every day after. And again, if you haven't hired anybody in your while, I promise you, it is not too late in the book. We talk about how you can say that no matter how much time has passed since they started, even if you've worked together for decades. That's interesting because it does kind of sound like, oh, this is my identity here, you know, kind of.

21:09So I think that's really cool. So actually, I appreciate you taking a few minutes to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is anywhere else you invite people to find out more about you and your work? Yeah, you can go to managermethod.com and you can find me across social media at Manager Method. And you can find me on LinkedIn, Ashley H-E-R-D. Awesome. Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Thanks so much, John.