Attachment Styles EXPLAINED: Which One Are You?

24:59So oftentimes, what's the resistance that I'm getting from them? Why don't they want me to start this business? Why is it they don't want me to go do this? And now you might have a deeper understanding of the reasoning behind, you know, not only their behaviors, but if you understand their behaviors and their needs, you understand where this resistance is coming from. I wrote a term down just because I didn't understand if it was different than what I was reading. So this is just for my edification. What is integrated attachment theory? So integrated attachment theory is the science of how we can actually change to become securely attached.

25:30We're not stuck with our attachment style. So it's actually the study of these five major places that we can do the work at a subconscious level so that we can become secure and have like the strengths that came out of having an insecure attachment style. Because there are strengths. We become resilient, resourceful, more empathetic, more compassionate in a lot of ways, but also have wired in those healthy patterns of secure attachment. Can you elaborate on what some of those places are? Yes. So the first one is we have to reprogram core fears. So we all have these core fears. Like we've talked about the abandonment or the fear of being trapped or defective or criticized.

26:06And so we can actually, we're not born with those fears. We can recondition them through leveraging the science of neuroplasticity. plasticity. So repetition and emotion fires and wires new ideas. And it's not through something like affirmations. I'll sort of go down a rabbit hole here just briefly, but a lot of people will try to do affirmations. So let's say somebody, for example, has a core fear. I'm not good enough. You're not going to really help yourself by saying I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I think it's a little bit futile. And the reason is because your conscious mind speaks language.

26:37If I say to you, Ed, whatever you do, do not think of a chocolate chip cookie. Right. How did that go? So, so what happens is your conscious mind here is do not, but your subconscious actually speaks in emotion and in images. So nobody's waking up intentionally having these core fears. Nobody's saying, Oh, I'm going to tell myself I'm not good enough 47 times today and hope that I feel good. What's actually happening is these are subconscious preexisting programs. So we have to speak to the subconscious mind to solve for that. So what I give people as an original tool to recondition these core fears that really are the big saboteurs of our relationships.

27:16I'll be abandoned. I'm not good enough. I'll be alone forever. These huge things that wreak havoc on our life and relationships is we start by number one, identifying the core fear and it's opposite. Very simple. I'm not good enough. I am good enough. Number two, we need 10 pieces of memory of times we did feel good enough. And the reason we have memory and the reason we picked 10 is because we need repetition for firing and wiring. And memory is just container for emotions and images. If somebody recounts their favorite childhood memory, maybe it's them playing on the playground. What do you see?

27:50The images of the slide. As you tell the story, you smile, your body language shifts and changes. So now we're using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind. Step three, we record it for 20 and listen back to it for 21 days, because it takes about 21 days to fire and wire these new strong neural pathways. And as long as we have like 10 pieces of proof for how we feel good enough or why we're worthy of connection instead of abandonment, or we're lovable instead of unlovable or whatever the core wound is that we're targeting, 10 pieces of evidence, listen back for 21 days, we will actually rewire these ideas that we've carried about ourselves and relationships for very long periods of time.

28:28So that's the first one. So is reprogramming these core fears. And I'm sure anybody listening, if they're like, oh, 21 days, it feels like a lot. I would really encourage anybody listening to think of how many times that core fear has actually sabotaged your relationships and it will always be more work not to do the work. It's a lot to have to live like that. Yeah. You built those neural pathways, probably doing it for 21 years. You can spend 21 days trying to undo it. Exactly. Exactly. And it only takes like five minutes of the morning routine or something. It's very simple. So, so the second one is we need to learn our own needs.

29:01And so, you know, I mentioned those earlier, you know, for some people, they need the reassurance, the validation, the certainty for other people. They need the autonomy, the acknowledgement, the independence. So when we can go back and actually see what our, our needs are, according to our attachment style, we actually first have to learn to meet them ourselves. There's, there's a great quote from Dr. Gabor Mate and he says, trauma are the things that happened that shouldn't have happened. Okay. So let's say verbal abuse, for example, which would maybe cause somebody to feel I'm not good enough.

29:31And we have those core fears, but it's also the things that didn't happen that should have happened. So this could be, if somebody gets neglected growing up, we're wired for attunement. So we will have these deeply unmet needs that come from trauma, whether it's small T trauma or big T trauma. And because of the subconscious comfort zone, because we want to keep that subconscious comfort zone alive in the relationship to self, we keep those needs unmet in our own lives first. Wow. That's good. So you'll see like dismissive avoidance, they're neglected. And what do they do? They grow up and they neglect their own emotions.

30:06And so, you know, we see this time and time again for each person. So our step two is after we reprogram core fears, number two, we learn to meet our own needs. In doing this, if we can show up and meet a need that's deeply unmet every day for 21 days, we actually will change that within ourselves. And then what will happen is we will be attracted to the right people who will mirror that back to us because our point of familiarity, our own subconscious comfort zone has now shifted. So we don't keep attracting that, those old patterns, those old people who will keep, you know, that self-fulfilling prophecy alive.

30:40So that's really step two, identify your deeply unmet needs, meet them in relationship to self for 21 days. Step three, very simple, a little nervous system regulation because every insecure attachment style is often sitting too much in fight or flight or parasympathetic nervous system mode. So a little breath work in the evening or a little meditation on a daily basis, just something for 20 minutes a day to help recondition our body. So it follows our subconscious mind into feeling like it is safe to be in our body. It's safe to be more present with ourselves. And again, it tends to come full circle and giving to ourselves those deeply unmet needs.

31:17Now, those first three steps I like to think of as being in relationship to self. Okay. I'm doing the work on me first. I'm removing my core fears. I'm meeting my own needs. I'm regulating my nervous system. The second ones are out into relationship with others because healthy interdependency means I'm a master of the relationship to myself. And I'm a master at being able to relate to rely on and be vulnerable with others. It's not one or the other. And so our second two steps are communicating our needs to others and allowing ourselves to receive them and having healthy boundaries so we can show and share our true selves with other people.

31:57I often say to people when it comes to boundaries, you know, when people don't set boundaries, they're like, no, boundaries are off. They're, they're going to, they're like a separation instead of a joining, but a boundary is you sharing the nose in your life. You know, you're not connecting fully or truthfully by just sharing all the things you do like or that are great, you also have to say, hey, I don't like when this happens. Hey, I don't like these things because that's you sharing without your mask. And so if we can do these five major things and really connect in a real honest way with ourselves first and then with others, that's how we move the needle from insecure to securely attached in a fairly short period of time.

32:34And it will transform the relationship we have to ourselves and the relationships in all aspects of our lives. This is so good. A basic question, you cover it in the book. By the way, thank you for this. It's just, I love real work that really makes a difference and really changes people.

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33:35Very short intermission here, folks. Folks, I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Be sure to follow the Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. And really we're going to talk about today is relationships. And not just your relationships with other people, but also your relationship with yourself and how it impacts other people. And the man I have put in this seat today is so unique and so special. He is one of a kind. He's called the angry therapist, which if you meet him in person, he's not so angry. John Kim. John, welcome to the show, brother.

34:06First, thank you for calling me a man. I appreciate that. Yeah, I feel very blessed to be here and to create a dialogue for you. Yeah, so I'm really grateful you're here. All right, let's get into it. We're going to get into relationship stuff. Not just, I mean, a lot of it's going to be boyfriend, girlfriend, significant other, whatever you want to call it, but it's also the one with you. Yeah, that's the most important. Okay, so let's. And the hardest. So you say this thing, self versus self, like uppercase versus lowercase. Let's just start there for a second. What does that mean? Oh, man. Man, I'll start with the book before this was called I Used to Be a Miserable F***.

34:39And a true story. And in my 20s, I was exchanging my truth for membership a lot. I grew up in L.A. And so I didn't have a relationship with self. I was living very outside in instead of inside out. And it's really good that I wasn't successful then because I would have been the douchebag. It would have been a very predictable story. I've got addiction in my blood. Me too. But yeah, I had no relationship with self, no sense of self. And so very approval seeking. And especially when it came to relationships and women doing whatever I could to get the dopamine, to get the, you know, whatever it is, the sex, the love, the approval.

35:20and it wasn't until 35, went through a divorce and at that point I had nothing. I lost my friends, had no money, I was broke. I just went on Craigslist, found a roommate and I was like, man, what do I do for me? And I thought, okay, I want to start living a different life because I have nothing to lose because I have nothing. what would it be to actually now start to live inside out instead of outside in? What would it look like to maneuver more in my solid self? So when people say self, the S for me stands for solid. And what I mean by that is we all have a pseudo self. We all have a solid self.

36:02And I got them tattooed on my, these are all kind of like bookmarks of, they're dog-eared pages of my life, my tattoos. And if you've seen the movie Fight Club, because I think it best explains this, At the end, we realize, disclaimer, I'm going to have to give away the ending to do my point. But at the end, we realize it's one person, right? So there's Edward Norton and there's Brad Pitt. And Edward Norton doesn't have a sense of self, right? He's kind of like, you've seen the movie, right? Yes. In the beginning, he's just buying IKEA furniture and just like not sleeping, going to movies and all that, meetings.

36:33And that's his pseudo self. And then he collides with himself, which is Brad Pitt. And at first, there's resistance. Get away from me. I don't want to have anything to do with you. and then through that collision he starts uh finding himself his solid self yeah and then because of that he finds a movement he you know he's injected with passion he becomes a leader he gets to grow like all these things happen the whole character arc yes and i think we all have the uh edward norton inside of us and we all have the the tyler durden i think was his name yeah yeah and so the self so good the self to me is the solid self it's the uh what what marty Bowen in therapy school calls, well, maybe people call it the authentic self, you know, but I call it the solid self.

37:19Do you think that, let me ask you about that, that outside in, inside out. Is outside in meaning you're trying to get external stuff to give you a feeling? Yes. So, okay. Yes. You're living based on things that are outside of self instead of living from a place of value, character, you know, stuff that isn't on the outside but that is internal. If you don't have that, so by the way, I told you guys, here we go. We're three minutes in and it's already freaking great stuff. But if you are an outside-in living person, does that mean you're probably going to have pretty hollow, empty relationships?

37:53Or can you actually have an effective, loving relationship if you don't even know who you are? I think the relationship would be lopsided because I think what you're bringing to the table is the cardboard cutout. Instead of like, the human three-dimensional, right? And I think most of my life, I was that cardboard cutout. If you are pulling from your pseudo self, which is the false version of you, and by the way, no one's solid, I mean, you know - I hope not. Jesus, Buddha, maybe, but like as humans, depending on who you're around, like if you're around your boss, you may be a little more pseudo.

38:27If you're with your kids, you're going to be solid. If you're with, you know, friends, different friends and stuff. But generally speaking, if you pull more from your solid self, What you're bringing to the table is uniquely you. You're bringing your potential. You're bringing who you are. You're bringing the acceptance of your story. So a lot of pseudo self people rip out chapters and they're kind of false advertising and they pick out the good parts of their story and present themselves in a way that is attractive. I certainly still do that sometimes. Sure. I think I'm loving this. So you do believe that it's a, because I think some people listen to this are like, shoot, I still do do that.

39:03You're saying everyone still does it a little bit. It's to the extent or the propensity you have to do it. It's when most of your days, most of your weeks, you're pulling from your pseudo self that you're at your lowest frequency, that you're not bringing much to the table. And so in that relationship, you're kind of a shell. You may be fancy. You may be funny. You may be good and bad or whatever. But your potential is low because your humanness isn't there. And what makes you unique is the solid self. How do you do that? So by the way, you came to becoming a therapist late in life. Yeah. I'm a late bloomer, man.

39:39At 35, I did my first squat. I looked like a pigeon. I was the guy that, you know, biceps and then no legs. Right. The beach workout. Found CrossFit at 35 after divorce. And I was a screenwriter, a failed screenwriter, and put my wife at the time on a pedestal. So I revolved around her. So when the marriage ended, I had no life, which is great because then you start, it's a black light, right? Yeah. It's like God says, this is what you have. And so I found fitness and I found CrossFit and I was like, what is this? This is back, this is 12, 13 years ago when they were like flipping tires and alleyways and stuff.

40:23And I was really interested in it. And then I kind of got obsessed with it. And it was always about challenging myself because it was timed and it was functional movement, things I've never done before. And that became kind of my daily ritual. So I wouldn't fall into depression. So your way out of that, which for a lot of people is too, was physiology, literally moving your body. Yeah, that was one way in. It was that and motorcycles. Okay. One of the things that I tell people is with clients, they ask, okay, so you got the pseudo and solid, I need to connect to my solid self. And the solid self is usually the whisper.

40:59The pseudo self is the thundering voice, right? That's been programming, advertising, right? The shoulds, you know, followers, social media. It's very loud. The solid voice is usually the quiet whisper because we ignore, we don't listen to our solid self. We don't listen to our truth because we're scared to, you know? Stay there. You say this in your book and in your content that you need to listen to the quiet whisper. Yeah, more so. Yeah. What does that look like when you do it? Is it just getting alone and turning out the noise? because this is profound what you're about to say. This is profound right here.

41:32I think it's in the stillness. When we talk about our truth, our intuition, I think it's in our stillness because we're so not used to listening to the quiet voice that we have to practice it until that voice then becomes louder and we trust that voice. I think our relationship with self is like any relationship in that it's built. you know and you know when people say self-love um i kind of i kind of feel like it's a bumper sticker because it's it's it's like throwing around a lot like gratitude right and i get it it's it's of course self-love but um self-like i think that's harder man because we love people we love family members that we don't really like or would be friends with because but they're family so we love them it's a choice but liking someone's not a choice right like if if i want you to like me, that's earned, man.

42:23I could say I love you as a brother or as another human. I don't know you. But then liking is earned. And so when you apply that to self, now enter the journey. And so when someone says, oh yeah, love yourself, that's like, what, over the weekend? What do I need to do to do that? That's like a choice. Okay, I do love myself. I choose to. I'm alive. I'm feeding myself. I love myself in that way. But if someone says, like yourself, then it's like, f***. So that's where I started. Do I like myself? What does that look like? And then I fell into fitness and bought a motorcycle and spent a lot of time alone.

43:03Brother, you're helping millions of people right now. And the way you articulate this, I have to tell you something interesting. I love when I'm with a vulnerable person, I become more vulnerable, right? Yeah. That's why I love my show. And I think about the same age I started to evaluate that. Oh, wow. About 35. I'm 51 now. By the way, huge work in progress on these things as well. But as I started to get to know me even, so it didn't start with liking me. It started like actually getting to know me. I found that my external relationships really dramatically became deeper. And by the way, over time, once I got to know me, I'm like, I kind of do like me.

43:41What was the catalyst for you? So for me, it was divorce. What was it for you? Success. Extra success. Meaning, okay, I did exactly what you were saying. Right. I'll get another, more money, more accolades, more people know me, more followers, more this, more successful friends, more notoriety, more invites to cool parties, more jets, more this, more that. And I'm like, and I still am not happy. And this is a game I'm playing that is like, by the way, I've gotten really good at this game. I got different than you in the sense that I got good at that game, but it didn't produce what I thought it would produce.

44:11So you had success early. So by the time you were 35, you were. Yeah, I had some wealth by the time I was 35 and came from none of it. But I'll tell you what happened. I remember one day I'm literally brushing my teeth. I caught a glimpse of myself brushing my teeth. And I realized in this moment, I never even look at me. I might get ready to make sure I think I look good, but I'm never alone with me, where I just look at me. Who is this man? Well, you were busy being successful. I was busy being my pseudo-self. Right, right. All the time. Right. By the way, a pretty nice pseudo-self, a kind person.

44:44I was a giving person. I wasn't a mean person. And I've always, you know, I think I've been pretty good human, but I didn't know me. Right. And I remember just looking at me going, I don't know that guy. I don't even spend any time looking at me, nevermind being with me or talking with me or enjoying me. And it started, it scared me. I'm like, I probably only have one more of these blocks. I don't have great genetics. So I'm halfway. That's when I was 35. I'm like, I'm halfway probably for me genetically. Now, now I think maybe hopefully it goes longer than that. But it's like, man, I don't want to get out of this life with never knowing me, never liking me.

45:21And then really, how deep are these relationships that I have if I don't even know who I'm bringing to the relationship? And so your work, man, like really resonates with me deeply. And I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear two dudes about our age, you know. Yeah. Kind of. I'm 49. Yeah. I'm a couple years older than you, right? Well, if I was in Korea, I'd be 50 because they count the time in your mom's stomach. Do they really? That's why I don't live in Korea. That's why I stay in LA. Oh, that's the reason. Oh, okay. So you're a year younger. Yeah. The other thing you said a minute ago, I want to go there, is you're talking about how you put your first wife on a pedestal.

45:52Yeah. You have something you said, bro, that in your work that I just went, oh my gosh, which you said that we are taught. Listen to this, everyone. You ready to go for like a moment, which you're going to get a lot with John? You said, we are taught that love looks like codependency. Mm. Yeah. Dineshment, codependency. So what is that? What do you mean when you say that? I believe that if you go down, I go down with you. If I go down, you go down with me. Because it's romantic and also Disney movies, rom-coms, and that feels, it just feels like love, right? We're all in this together. Okay. And now I believe if you go down, I'll give you my hand but not my life.

46:33You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. We are two different people. And the image, and I remember this so well. A lot of people just heard that and went, no, no, I don't want that. I want that thing that I see in the movie. Well, because it shoots more dopamine and it's sexier, you know? The image that I see for a healthy relationship, I thought it was a yogurt ad, but someone DMed me and said, no, that was actually a Viagra ad. And I was like, oh, okay. But it was two people in a, they're like in their 80s on the Grand Canyon, you know, in separate bathtubs facing outward. And the only thing that was connecting them was their hand outside of the bathtub.

47:08And I remember coming across that in a magazine and thinking, oh, this is what a healthy relationship looks like. Because what I would imagine is two people in a hot tub on top of each other, facing each other, you know? And yes, that's sexy and that produces a lot of dopamine. And that's kind of, I think we've been brainwashed to believe in the one and happily ever after and all that. You believe the one is BS. I do. I believe in the one in front of you. I think when you – and you've been married for so long, so I don't know how you feel about this. 25 years. Yeah. And I think today that like doubles.

47:47It means more today. I think you're right. But when you're programmed to believe that there is the one, I think the danger in that is whoever you're dating, you're going to bust out your checklist. And if this person is the one and the one for the rest of your life, man, they better be perfect. And everything better check off. And the sex must be mind-blowing. And that's not, we're human, you know? And relationships are hard. And so it puts a lot of pressure and a blacklight on the relationship. Now, if the one is just the one in front of you, now you're more present. And you're not thinking if there's someone else in the world that is better for you or suited for you.

48:27You know what I'm saying? Yes. The one is always the one that you're looking at. Well, I actually think when you have a belief that there's just the one that when you meet them, that potentially you come across as desperate or needy because there's just one human now. Right. And I think sometimes people that are in the dating circles don't realize that they have an energy they're giving off that once they think this person is the one, if you have that belief system, potentially there are multiple ones that would be right for you, right? There are not everyone is right for you, but that when you do have this belief, this is the only walking human being on earth that will satisfy the things that I need in my life.

49:00How can you not come across as somewhat desperate? When you're interacting with him, right? When you get to do everything you can to get this person or make this relationship work. Right. And then, by the way, I think in that, I want you to talk about it because you're the therapist, not me, but that probably fosters codependency. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I need you. Yes, yes. There's a dependency, and that's also when you go from solid to pseudo. You know what I'm saying? Why? Why do you have to go from solid to pseudo? Because you're not bringing your authentic self. You're bringing a self that is lined with desperation that is now putting this person, you know, high up.

49:29That is now going back to the hot tub with two people on top of each other instead of in their own separate bathtubs. And then also if you believe that this person is the one that you're supposed to be with for the rest of your life, what if it doesn't work out? What if she leaves? Like, you know? You just explained where most people find such misery, bro. Yeah. Because they think they had them. Well, also, then you also get controlling. You also get jealous. All these other things, the shadow sides come out if you believe this is the one person for you in this world. But I think some people listening, so let's go there because you know what they're thinking.

50:01They're thinking, yeah, but then how deep is the connection if I don't go down with you? When you say go down, I assume you mean maybe they've become a drug addict or an alcoholic even. You're like, I'm supposed to ride this out with you forever as you ruin your life and mine. Right. So there is, you know, I often think sometimes that with my children, you have kids, that's unconditional love. There's really nothing my kids can do that's going to stop this relationship with me. My daughter killed somebody. I hate to say this, but I'm probably helping her bury the body somewhere. Yeah, no, I mean, all parents, right, right, right.

50:34But other relationships, there are conditions. There should be. There should be conditions, right? Like, hey, if you repeatedly do these things to me, that's a condition that's broken. And I think sometimes people go to this, the one thing or this codependency thing, whereas there are no conditions. Right. And then if there are no conditions, if there are no boundaries, you're putting an awful lot of pressure on that other human being not to push the limits. Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. Vanessa, my partner, says it in this book, and I think we wrote it together. Yes. She says it really good about codependency.

51:05That's her whole thing is she describes it as if I'm so basically what's healthy is if I'm okay and you're not okay. Of course, I could support you and stuff, but it's okay. Codependency is when you're not okay. That makes me not okay. Yeah. If I'm not okay, you should not be okay too. You know what I'm saying? Very good. And that's like the whole like I'll give you my hand, but not my. It doesn't mean that if you see your partner going through a winter or a depression that you just, oh, that's not me. It's not that. Of course you. Of course. You're helping your support. But at what point do you, you can't lose self or your life because, you know, because then they're taking you hostage whether they want to know it or not.

51:50This self thing is so profound, bro, because one, I think a lot of us come into a relationship. By the way, and again, I'm being transparent. I think until I was about 35 years old. By the way, I'm still a work in progress on it. Yeah. But if you don't know who you are, what do you bring into a relationship? And then also this loss of self when we enter a relationship is a really dangerous thing. One, I don't think that you're bringing the vibrational frequency, the energy, the interesting things about you if you die in order to be one in a relationship. Yeah. And it's interesting. I want to do explore with you because I've watched relationships and of friends of mine that were very loving.

52:24They were two wonderful people that got together. They formed a bond. There's us now, which I think is powerful. But at some point, that us eroded me and I, meaning that they were no longer an individual. Right, right. They meshed. They meshed. And ironically, that lack of individuality, that lack of expression of who one is, became less attractive to the other person over time. It's called false advertising. Because, you know, it's funny because when you're single, you're working on yourself. You're going to the gym. You're doing all these things. And you're really doing everything to connect to you.

53:01And then you get into a relationship. And over time, you know, then it's the sweats. And, you know, people kind of like let go of taking care of themselves and all that. And I think we have a responsibility when we're in a relationship to continue the relationship with ourselves. Or else it is false advertising. Because when I met you, you were this type of person. And now, like, we never go out. You don't court me anymore, which should be continuous, right? You're not fanning the flames. All the stuff that you were doing when we started is now gone because things have gotten too comfortable. And so that's when it gets murky.

53:39And that's when people start getting curious about other people. I think you're exactly right, brother. What about this idea of thank you for being so good at this? Because I think this is just - I don't know if I'm good, but - You're outstanding. Thank you. And the way you express it is unique. And it's why you're sitting here. Thanks. and like I know when I'm in a good one of these. I know when I'm in something and I'm like, hey, this is special. You talk about different attachment styles. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, and I'll just go through three. There's more secure attachment is – attachment styles stem from childhood and, of course, starting with our parents.

54:11But there's anxious attachment, and that is when you're holding onto the person's leg instead of their hand, right? That's like me. I need the person to tell me that I'm beautiful and that they're not leaving and they love me and all that kind of stuff, right? Lots of texts and connection. There's avoidant, and that's more like my partner who runs the other way, is avoidant with intimacy and hard conversations and vulnerability. We are not that much anymore because we've done a lot of work. I was going to say, that would be pretty difficult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's different extremes of that.

54:44Sure. But if we were to classify, that's where I come from, that's where she comes from. And then there's secure. Insecure is, again, when you have your own sense of self, interdependence, when you are your own person, you have your own opinions, you can say no. You can say to your boyfriend how you want him to go down on you. You can express yourself. You can say, no, I don't want tacos today. I want pizza. And I know it sounds very, very simple, but in relationships, we don't do that. We actually start loving the – because we think what love looks like is loving the other person more than us.

55:18Yeah. More than us. And because that's what a good husband looks like. I'm going to always put her ahead of, she wants pizza, she's getting pizza. That's what a man looks like. It's like, is it? Or are you exchanging your truth for love or for validation? Are you exchanging something that, you know what I'm saying? Yes. So now if that's the case, are you giving or taking? Because if you want something back from the person you're taking, you're not giving. Oh my gosh. Giving would be like, hey, I love you, but today I want pizza. Is that what you mean by choosing ourselves or is that a little bit different?

55:50Yeah, I think that also is choosing yourself, meaning stand on your truth and put action behind what loving slash liking yourself looks like. And I think some people are good at that when they're single. But I think when they get into a relationship, when love enters the picture, especially if it's toxic, especially if someone is needy or codependent or controlling or all of that. the wheels fall off. And it happens over time. It's like the boiling frog, right? It's a slow drip that can still drown you. It's not like people don't fall into toxic relationships when on the date they sense all these red flags and they're like, okay, I'm going to invest in this person anyway.

56:32Usually it's over time, five, six years in, and now they wake up one day and they're like, I don't even know who I am. I don't know who I am. A lot of women and mostly women than men from my experience with working with clients, wake up, mostly in their 30s, and been with people for, you know, five, 10 years, and this happens. And they're like, I have no sense of, I'm just here. I'm existing, I'm not living. And just having sex because it's obligation, and they don't know what to do, and they've really lost, like, who they are. Okay, so like five million people just are going, oh my gosh, you just described me, right?

57:10Yeah, now what do I do? Yeah, right. So What would be a, what's a, you're going right where I want to go. Well, it's, it's, it's kind of like, I think where I started, you know, um, it's the hero's journey, man. It's the, um, call to, to, you know, the hero's journey, right. The call to adventure and slaying your dragons. Uh, I think it's starting going back full circle to suit over solid. What is your solid self? And can you start listening to that solid self? And it comes in micro moments. It's not like these big decisions, like, you know, life changing. I mean, it can be, but it can be something as like, Hey, you know what?

57:41today I'm not going to go to work. I'm going to go to the beach. It's a quiet whisper. But then there's this giant should. Yeah, but you're this and you're that. And that means you're a lazy piece of whatever. And so can you give yourself love, compassion, understanding? And today, can you execute what you want, the quiet whisper and actually go to the beach? Can you give that yourself without the shame, without the, and it's going to be really hard. Most people can't. You You start there and then you build and then you build and you get to a place where you start then able to set boundaries, to make choices.

58:15And it's also more attractive, right? And then the people around you are like, I'll have what she's having. Yes. Man, she's kind, but she's assertive. And you know what also happens? I'll have her. No, really. Like what ends up happening is this becomes a magnetic, attractive being again. Or maybe for the first time. Right. I so totally agree with you. And it could be actually standing up for what you want. Like, I actually want tacos tonight. It sounds so trivial. Yeah, it sounds. But it's in the mundane. Or actually, honey, you're going to watch the kids and I am going to the gym. Right. And actually stand for yourself and do something caring and loving for yourself.

58:48Right. And coming from a place of controlling or getting back at anyone. It's coming from your truth and it's coming from a place of self-love. You know. You got these terms, man. What is repetition compulsion? Repetition. I think my partner wrote that one. Okay, so that must be from your partner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what it was is that you, I think, I want to go there with it because I think it was like repetitiously falling into a pattern in a relationship where like you have a compulsion to continue to serve them in a way that maybe doesn't serve you anymore. Sure. So actually, I'll make my own term of it.

59:20Yeah, I love it. Let's just say I'm right. I love it. I think you're right. But I think that happens intimacy wise too. We're like, there's something that, and we're going really deep here, but there's something intimately that your partner really loves that you don't enjoy, that you don't like, but you repetitiously do it out of some compulsion to serve them or maybe some verbal thing you do or a particular behavior you have. Maybe it's not even in an intimate way, but it doesn't serve you. It doesn't make you feel good about you. There's a way they speak to you or you speak to them, but it makes them feel good.

59:50So you have this compulsion to continue to do it. That's my version. Yes. So we all went out to dinner the other night. Me and like four other therapists, my partner's a therapist, our friends are a therapist. And we were talking, and I don't know how we got on this topic, but we're talking about how women can go down on a guy and actually, oh, as a way to avoid sex. And I was like, wait a minute, but that's so intimate. And they're like, it might be for men when men are going down on women. But for women, they're saying that, and these are all women, they're saying it's easy, it's not intimate.

1:00:24and it could be a great way to get out of sex. And it blew my mind. And I was thinking, and they're like, yeah, and we've been doing it for years. And I was thinking, so that's kind of an example of a pattern that could happen, right? If you don't want to be intimate, where that's kind of how you take care. And it shouldn't be happening because it's misleading. And also you shouldn't be doing it if you don't want to. But something like that over the years, the pattern of that is damaging, right? Yeah. And that's, we're just talking about just everyday stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's super interesting.

1:00:55And it shocked me because I was thinking, oh. And then I started playing back on my relationships and was thinking, how many of them were just doing it because they didn't want to have sex with me? Right. Oh, my God. You look back at your life and I thought they wanted to do it. Yeah.

1:01:37That was a great conversation. and I want you to help a bunch of people. So, Christina P., welcome to the show. Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for having me. You have two parents. The good parent, who you speak highly of, is who... This is the good one, by the way. And so, as I understand it, the good one, your dad has been married five times? Is that right? Is it five? Well, you know, there's a little factual fudging here and there, but, yeah, a few times. Is he really married to someone that much younger than him? Is that actually a true story, or date someone younger than him? Younger, yeah.

1:02:08I fudge a little. Yeah, oh, everybody does in that space. Yeah, it's for comedic purposes. But the gist of it is, yes. Your dad was a player. Oh, I mean... Well, yeah, I'll give you the stats. So, parents are Hungarian immigrants. They escape from communism, 1969. They get married at 19 and 20. Wow. And leave their country at that young age. Can you even imagine being like, I'm up, I'm out, let's escape. Escape communism, bro. They go to Canada. They have me in Canada, and then we move to the U.S. in 1980. By then, their marriage has just dissolved because my mother is mentally ill. She's a borderline, but back then, nobody called it anything.

1:02:48We didn't know it. And she later became schizophrenic. And my father is an alcoholic, obviously, to deal with his... You know, they had horrendous upbringings. It's not their fault, right? They divorce, and then it's me alone, ping-ponged between my mentally ill mother or my alcoholic, sex addict father. Wow. Right, but you know it, because did your parents stay together? Yeah. Ugh, I'm not sure what's worse. Well, mine was redemptive because my mom was well-adjusted. My mom was there and was solid. The reason I probably connected with you is I picture your dad, maybe not all that much unlike my dad, and then I'm thinking, though, if I didn't have my mom, and then you having a probably even more disconnected mother, And I'm literally...

1:03:37I'll be honest with you. I'm watching your show. I want to make sure I do a great interview with you today because I actually feel like this can care for you from watching you, which is a comedy special. I've never laughed harder either, but... When you were speaking and doing your show, I was picturing you as a little girl. I was actually picturing it with your mom and how, like, scary that might have been sometimes, seeing her not be functional and normal and losing her temper and stuff like that. What... Can you tell us a little bit what it was actually like? Now that you're offstage, what's the real?

1:04:08Yeah, it's, uh... I'm like, I'm still in therapy. You know, just to let people know, like, I've been in therapy for 12 years, and then I feel like just now, I'm getting into the actual trauma work, where you feel the feelings of terror that you had as a child. And I had terror and fear because there was no... There's no safe place when you're like that, right? So my mother would become... I remember one time... She made these lunches for me that I didn't like. It was like Hungarian lunch, you know? Like salami with butter. And I take it to school, and I'm like, I don't want to eat this, you know?

1:04:51Everyone's making fun of me because I'm a foreigner. So I hide the sandwiches in the bottom of my book bag because I can't throw them out because I feel too guilty about throwing them out and getting in trouble. And I can't tell her that I don't like the sandwiches. I can't tell her, because she'll get mad. So I hide a bunch... Eventually, I have a stockpile of, like, 14 or 15... God, my hands are sweating to tell you this story. And I hid them in my closet. Well, eventually, the stench of 14 or 15 salami and butter sandwiches caught up, and she found them, and it was a rage. And it was, like, you know, everything.

1:05:25My anger, and then she kicks me out. And that's the beginning of, like, kicking me out to go live with my father. And my dad's house wasn't a lot better. So that, you know, because of alcohol and girls and party and all that jazz. So it's basically like I'm betrayed everywhere I go. I look and I don't have a safe place. And it's scary and terrifying. What's your day-to-day like, then? Are you always scared? Always, were you not a confident kid? The reason I ask people, you know why I'm asking you this. People, millions of people listening to this will be like, okay, there's a piece of me in her.

1:06:04I really believe this in life. Like, if you really want to impress everybody, just show them how perfect you are. If you want to connect with people and help them, show them your imperfections. For sure. And you and I both do a really good job of that. And so you're this little girl, and I just picture you bouncing from these two dysfunctional people. Yeah. And with no other even siblings to grab onto and say, okay, they love me, they'll protect me. Nothing. No. But you know who I did have? along the way were sensible adults, teachers that I liked and that I could speak to. I had American, I say American because like, you know, I'm an alien in a sense.

1:06:37You know this too as a child of an alcoholic. You're an alien because you're different and you know it and you can't tell people at school like what's going on at home because you know that that's a secret you must keep. So I would go to my friend's house. I lived at my friend's house. By the time I was 12, I was out. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like the time I'm 12, I have this epiphany that I'm alone. Truly alone. And an existential... Like, I was a latchkey kid, so I was physically alone, but I was an adult. I was gone. So I would try to stay at my friends' houses and get the f*** out, but...

1:07:10I'll tell you what I did know at that age. Is that my suffering... You know when you're like, you know you're suffering, but you don't really know as a kid. You don't know. It's all you know. But I knew that there was something inside of me that was resilient. There was some magic. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I would watch Pippi Longstocking. Me too. Yeah. So did I. Yeah. And it was like, because of those characters, because of the mythologies and the, like, whatever it is I was glomming onto stories, I would, like, pretend to be that person. Like, my life isn't this. I'm Pippi Long. Isn't this fun that I actually turn it into, like, I'm living with my single dad, and he makes me eat on paper plates, but I can cut my spaghetti with scissors because I'm Pippi Longstocking.

1:07:55Like, I turned it into a fun thing. Yep, yep. You too? Yeah, I think that, look, stuff's overset in personal development. Everything's happening for me, not to me. I don't know if I was the first person to say that, or the third. I'd like to think I was the first. But sometimes that stuff's easy to say and hard to apply. But I do think, like, I became really resilient because of it. I became, I really, you know, like in the business world, I've made a lot of money. One of the ways I've made a lot of money is like two things, both of them because my dad was a drinker. One, I've learned to be really pre...

1:08:27read people well. Mm-hmm. And be present with them. The reason was I had to figure out when my dad was coming through that front door, which one was I getting? Was I getting the sober one who was gonna be okay, we're gonna have dinner and play basketball? Or was it the drunk one and, you know, maybe my mom and sister should go upstairs, so I would read this man. And that, I didn't know, Napoleon Hill says in Think and Grow Rich. Love that book. Me too. It's the second best book ever written on personal, other than The Power of One More, which is sitting next to you. Yeah. But in that book, he says, on the other side of temporary pain, you meet your other self.

1:09:00And I met this version of me that wouldn't have existed, where I'm really good at reading people and being present with them. And then the other thing I'm decent at doing is communicating. So are you. And because I had to learn how to talk to my dad when he was in those states, so that I could change him just a little bit, or even move certain ways I would move, little did I know that those two things were forming this version of me that I would use someday to help millions of people. And I watch you, and I watch your ability to have, like, insights into human beings' behaviors, and how they move and operate, how they think, and then your ability to communicate.

1:09:38And I think some of that's got to be part of the blessing of going through what you went through. Suffering. Suffering makes you funny. It makes you clever. It makes you resourceful. You know, everybody I know, Ed, like you, most of the guys I know that are hugely successful didn't graduate from Harvard. Yeah, right. Me too. Were crappy at school and had horrible upbringings. Isn't it interesting? It's the secret sauce, isn't it? It is. It is. But I think for me, my father loved comedy and good humor. So I was watching Richard Pryor when I was little and Aunt Eddie Murphy and Saturday Night Live and Cheech and Chong, and this was my education.

1:10:20And then the Truly Tasteless joke books, I would memorize those, because those would be in the bathroom. And I would tell those jokes to my father or to my schoolmates at school. I would go to school in, like, third grade, and I would repeat these jokes that are, you know, by today's standards, completely verboten, right? Like, blonde jokes and Jewish jokes and da-da-da-da-da. I didn't even know what they were, but I knew that people laughed. Yeah. And that's how I could get out of stuff. And I also, I became entertaining to my dad so that I wasn't a burden. Interesting. You, um... See, if you, right now in the middle of this, like, took a minute and went over to YouTube and watched Christina, you'd see this, like, I'm not saying it's a compliment, you'd just see this very powerful, very together, very...

1:11:02To walk out on a stage, any stage, and to own it like you do, there's a command. There's something. So, I don't know if you've done a lot of interviews like this, I don't think you have. No, we don't talk. Comedians are generally like, Let's talk about our farts. Right, but comedians are also usually pretty dark people in real life, right? Yes. Would you agree with that? I think that's one thing most people wouldn't know. My friends that are super funny or that do it for a living, there's a, I guess I'd call it a darkness or a pain or something they're moving away from most of the time in their life.

1:11:31Yes. Is that true? Well, here's the deal. The funnier you are, the more you've embraced the darkness, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. It's the funny, the funniest ones are the ones who know it's there and don't push it away. That's why, personally, my taste in comedy has always been Bill Hicks or Carlin or these guys. I love Greg Giraldo. He passed away from drugs. But these guys that could really harness the darkness and go there. I don't give a sh-t about cookie. What's the difference between cookie and cookie? I don't care. Yeah. Shut up. Tell me the real. You know? Yeah. So, yes, but here's what I would argue is that most people are dark.

1:12:09Everyone has the shadow self, and comedians aren't always afraid of going there. But your accountant, your lawyer, your dentist, guess what? They're dark, too, probably. Only true. But you haven't looked. You don't want to peek. If I had met you at, like, 12, who would I be meeting? Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, you do you, though. You do you, too, okay? Okay, okay. Okay, so 12, I started smoking cigarettes already. Okay. Started wearing all black. You did. I was already... School was kind of not interesting. I want to hang out, smoke cigarettes, listen to punk rock. I want to go to nightclubs by 13, 14.

1:12:58I'm in goth nightclubs and, like, doing... Yeah. Just kind of angry and confused. Go back a minute. I'll tell you me. Yeah. Is it really true that you were in bars with your dad when you were a little girl? That's actually true. That's a true part of your act. Yeah, that part's true. 100%. Your father would take you out to a bar at six, seven, eight years old, and you would be dancing to white lines at a bar. Is there some truth to that? Yeah, it's all true. So that part's true. And that's why... So I actually paid out of my own money to license that Frankie Goes to Hollywood song. Relax. I wonder at the end.

1:13:26I'm so screwed up, because I know about all these things. I'm like, damn, she must have paid for that to be at the end, because that ain't free. I did. I thought about that last night. I paid so much money, Because Netflix paid for my crazy outfit, which was unfortunate, and they paid for this New York City. It was like huge, huge budget, and then I was like, and I want Frankie Goes to Hollywood. And they're like... Because it's the perfect ending. You guys got to go see this, but so that... I want to stay there. So I go to... So my dad... My dad goes to party, and, you know, back in the old country, you don't...

1:13:53There's no babysitters, so his dad would take him to the bar. I imagine is what ha... That is what happened. And so I grew up in bars and nightclubs very early. So, in third grade, I've actually really fun memories as a kid going to these bars and dancing, and dancing to the 80s music, which is the best, dude. Like, I really lucked out in that regard. And I have a vivid memory of dancing with sailors. And there's literally sailors. They're at Fleet Week or whatever, and I'm this little girl. And that song, Moany Moany, comes on. And do you know what the hidden chorus is? Hey, mother effer, get effed.

1:14:28And they, and here I am. Everyone yells it. Yeah, and then I was like, what? Oh, and then I'm chanting it. But it was fun for me. You thought White Lines was a coloring book? I did. I had no idea that it was about cocaine. I was so little. But then I'd go to school the next day and I knew to keep it a secret. You knew. So there's something you knew. This sounds really corny, but I'm listening to the part of your act. I want to hug this little girl. I also just picture you at your age and me at that age and what I was doing. What are you into at 12? Well, at 12, I went the other way. Sports? If you had me a 12, yeah.

1:15:00If you had me a 12, you would meet a really shy kid. Really shy, really introverted, no confidence whatsoever of any type. But I was good at baseball. And so I kind of went the other way. I was more like straight laced, never got in trouble. Was afraid to become what I was seeing in my house. I was afraid. My dad was still drinking when I was 12. So I kind of became more like an athlete type, I guess. But I wasn't like one of those athletes where I was a cocky athlete. It was just the only thing I was any good at. It was the only thing. Like, it was the one place I went where I was like, oh, I don't completely, totally suck here.

1:15:38And no one was bullying me there, right? You know, I would worry. There was worries. Like, I would worry on game days if my dad was going to show up to a game. And if he did, was he drunk? If he was at the game, was he going to say or do anything? Sometimes I feel bad because I'm describing these times, and I know my mom listens to my show, and she's like, was it really that bad? And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it is worse when I describe it now, because it's all I knew, right? Like, it's all I knew. And my dad did end up getting sober, and so there's, like, the reason I'm in this, like, you can change yourself space is I watched my old man do it, right?

1:16:10So I'm like, I watched my hero do it. But probably if you met me then, I don't even know that I'd be that much different than I am now. I think when people meet me now, they're like, I kind of expected, you know, I don't know, you'd have more of, I don't know, like, that front that people have that are successful or whatever. I still am like, hey, man, I'm working on myself, and there's certain environments I'm comfortable in. You put me in front of 15 ,000 people on a stage, I'm completely at home and I own it. You put me in a cocktail party with like six or eight people and someone's right here and I'm like, yeah, I gotta go to the restaurant.

1:16:40Like, I'm constantly trying to avoid... You said that Tom's a little that way. Yeah, my husband's an introvert like that too. He's not the life of the party. I think I'm a lot more fun at a party than he is. You think that's from the bar experience? Seriously, like you're used to being social? Yeah, I love party. Yeah. And it's also cultural. Like, we're Hungarian, so like on Sunday, we have a party, everybody comes over, you're telling dirty jokes, you're drinking, you're awful, you know, it's like this, I was never like shy as a kid, because my mother pushed me into acting when I was four. So I was like, yeah, I was auditioning and already kind of a show business.

1:17:13And then I think around 10 or 11, I do like a pilot, and then I'm like, I don't want to be an actor. This is for the birds. I'm depressive. And that's actually what I was going to share with you. So by the time I'm 14, upside down. This is when I get super depressed. Because now, you know, when you're messed in childhood, guess what? It comes back in adolescence. And now the drama. So I'm 14 years old. I'm goth. I'm cutting. I'm cutting up my arms just to feel some release. Because I'm so depressed. And I'm sitting in my room just trying to try to hide from my parents and the reality. And, you know, you're confused.

1:17:51You think you're being dramatic. Like, is this really true? Is my family this wonky? Or, like, I don't know. Am I... Am I... I must be messed up because, you know, like, I'm the one that's flawed. So by the time I'm 14, I'm convinced it's me and not them. And I'm suicidal. And life is... Like, I have straight Ds. I remember, like, I just decided to stop going to school. I just decided I was in ninth grade, and I was like, I'm not going anymore. And then I just stopped going. I was like, no, thank you. And I stopped going. And then I had straight Ds, I remember, and I eventually went back, and I was failing out of school.

1:18:31And then one day, I just went nuts in the bathroom stall cutting. And I was just like, whoa! And I just cut. I just went crazy. And this friend of mine, this girl I had been friends with, but we had a following, whatever, like, she found me. She took me to the office at school. Oh, my God. Yeah, so dramatic. And then my mom came to get me. and she saw my arms and then she started to hit me. I remember she beat me and I was like, yeah, and I was like, just put me in a mental hospital. Like I begged them, I'm like, put me away. I think something's wrong with me, put me away. And my mother had worked for a psychiatrist and I think she was worried about putting me in a mental hospital or whatever, like that it would stigmatize me or mess me up worse.

1:19:17So she was like, no, I didn't see a therapist yet. But she's like, but do you want to go to Catholic school? And I was like, yeah. I mean, she showed me this brochure to this all girls Catholic school. And I was like, yeah, okay. So I went to the nuns and I loved it. I loved it, man. I had a mohawk at the time, like an orange mohawk. And I remember this nice head nun, the principal goes, listen, sweetie. She didn't call me sweetie. She goes, it doesn't have to be the color God gave you. It just has to be a God given color. I know, so I dyed it brown, and I hid my mohawk, and I grew it out. And I could put my book bag down, and nobody would steal it.

1:19:57And by the time I had graduated, I was like a leader of this retreat, and I had, I just flourished because of the boundaries and the... It was an all-girls school, too, so there was like, oh, I don't have to be cute. I'm wearing a uniform. I can just be a little girl again. And I reverted, and I was able to be safe. And that saved my life. It saved your life. Catholic school saved my life, yeah. It's pretty amazing to see your face right now. You know, this is mainly audio. I wish everyone could see your face. It's interesting to see you talk about that time. Think about your mom there for a second.

1:20:33So she loved you. I mean, she was trying with the limited capacity she had to help her daughter there, right? I mean, did that ever dawn on you? I mean, she did love you, right? Yes, yes. Now, obviously, too, a lot of what I say for comedic, It's no good if they're shades of gray. But I actually think you really feel it. Like, I actually think you really... Let me tell you what I mean by that. I really do feel these things about my dad. I feel guilty about feeling them because I know that... that that wasn't his intent. It was his... You feel guilty about having negative feelings towards him? Yeah, I do because I love him so much.

1:21:06I know he loved me so much. I've got to the other side of it now where I can... And this is so good for everyone listening to this who goes through these things, but... I don't... I think it's okay that I feel it. I feel sometimes weird that other people know I feel it because I don't want them to think that about my dad. You don't want them to judge him or you. Both. Both. I don't want to be judged for feeling that way. And also, like, I do know that my dad... Hurt people hurt people, right? So I know my dad was operating out of something that happened in his life, in his upbringing, and same with his dad, and so on and so on.

1:21:36But I... I feel weird about the fact that there's this man I love so much, but that I... these things did happen. I do feel this way, you know? I have both feelings. I remember what it's like when I didn't feel good about them, and I remember what it feels like when I do. And I... And in your case, your mom was trying. So when you went there, when you... Catholic school, does that when you start to change permanently, or do you end up reverting back? Like, when do you become you? Right, right. So that's a good question. So also, before I go there, I love what you say about having two simultaneous feelings.

1:22:11And I think that's what you learn in therapy, is that I can love and hate my mom at the same time. I can love and hate my dad at the same time. I can thank my mother for all the wonderful qualities she had. She was fashionable. She had flair. She had timing. She was funny. She was crazier than s***, too. You know what I'm saying? My dad, too, is just funny, antisocial, brooding, independent, resilient. Like, brilliant nut. Does it ever dawn on you, and I'll let you keep going, that they end up raising... I mean, because you're really humble, but does it ever dawn on you that these two people raised a daughter who now...

1:22:56I mean, let's just be real. Like, you're one of the more... I mean, you're gonna roll your eyes when I say this, but you are one of the more influential people on the planet in terms of your show and your reach and your husband and you. It's so funny. I don't even feel that way. Yeah, I know you don't. But do you feel that way? No, not at all. But it's... It's ridiculous. But you are. And so these two totally dysfunctional human beings... No, really, raise this single child together, right? How? How, right? And then you end up... I mean, it's just... I'm picturing you cutting yourself. Yeah, it's terrible.

1:23:28These maniacs. And I was... By the way, I went through this stage where, like, I was so depressed. I don't know if I was... I used to think, what the heck is life about? Why am I living this life? What is this? Is this worth it at all? So that goes into that. Yeah, and I... Did you have that, too? Yeah, man. So the darkness. So, okay, so hold on. Back where you were just saying, how did they raise someone? I'll tell you why. Because it makes me sad. Because my parents are wildly awesome people who had a bad go of it, man. Could you imagine being born in communist Hungary? It's after World War II, so the country's already been ravaged by the Germans, war, war, awful poverty, and now the Russians come and destroy your country.

1:24:05And it's a nightmare. They have nothing. So I always think of them as this pure potential that just got destroyed. So I know that they've got the makings. Oh, but had they just had my life. Damn it. I lucked out. They had your life. So you lucked out being raised by the two of them compared to what they had. 100%. 100%. And here's another lucky thing I had. Money. No, we weren't rich. I'm not saying I was rich. You had food every day. You'd have to worry about where meals were coming from and stuff like that. No, not like that. We were like middle class. And I think back in the 90s, there was a middle class, right?

1:24:41And I hate when people poo-poo money. It makes me bonkers when they're like, money isn't everything. That's not everything, but it's awesome. And the lack of it is horrible. And it sucks being broke. The lack of it's horrible. So the fact that I was educated was a huge blessing. Now, I barely eked my way into college. Barely got in, man, but I did. And then once I was out of the house, I was getting straight A's. And I was like, oh, I'm not an idiot. It's just that I was in this place that I couldn't study because everybody was screaming and yelling. It was a bad environment. And that's when I found philosophy.

1:25:12So I started studying philosophy. And that changed my life. And that's when I was like, oh, I have a brain. I'm not just like a screw-up who tried to kill herself in ninth grade. And I was always trying to outlive that stigma of being a loser. Because my parents were like, oh, you try to kill yourself. It was like I disappointed everybody in my family. My grandmother wouldn't give me money that year for Christmas because she thought I was going to spend it on drugs, which I wasn't even really on drugs. You know what I mean? So I was like this loser in my family. So I found philosophy and I was getting A's and I was like, you know what?

1:25:45Screw you, man. I'm going to be, I'm going to, I'm going to show you, right? I'm going to show you I'm a winner. And then I got into Oxford for a year and I went to study philosophy at Oxford. Yeah, man. What? Yeah. As I'm telling you, so I went from like loserville to like, I don't know what I'm going to be, but I'm going to show you. Yeah. Yeah. So I studied philosophy at Oxford. I come back and I'm... And then I do that show Road Rules. I didn't know you did the Road Rules. Yeah, a million years later. And then I was like, wouldn't it be great if I could make a living just being myself? Flash forward to podcasting.

1:26:17But anyway, I had this great boss after college. I had this degree in philosophy, and I was such a useless degree. And he's like, you're the worst employee I've ever had. His name is Chris Abrego. Shout out to Chris Abrego. What's up, Chris? Anna, you're the worst employee I've ever had, but you're funny. Go do the Groundlings. I was 23. Come on. And then I went to the Groundlings and I was like, this is it. I found it. It's like when you find your thing you're good at. Yep. You found sports. Yep. And then I'm like, all right, hey man, maybe, you know, I'm an idiot, I'm a loser, whatever. But this is something I love.

1:26:49And once you get obsessed, you know how it is? Like when you find your obsession, I don't care what it takes, bro. I'm going to keep coming and do this. Yeah. Put me in a motel six. Yep. Okay. Like, yeah, I'll do, you want me to go Afghanistan? Can I do 15 minutes of stage time in Afghanistan? Yeah, dude, I'll go. You did that? Hell yeah, I did everything. You did. Well, I'm sure you did everything by any means. I did, but in your case, so you find it. By the way, it's one of the great blessings of life. I always feel for people that have not yet found it. Yeah. Because it's, I feel like of all the things I got cheated out of in life, I did find some talents and skills when I was relatively young, outside of baseball too, that I was like, okay, I like business, I like speaking.

1:27:29This is stuff I'm pretty, really good at. I feel at home, it doesn't feel like work when I'm doing it. That's the... Boom. Doesn't feel like work when I... I always laugh when people call, you going to work tonight? Stand up? I'm like, that's not... It's never work, baby. I've had day jobs. I had 22 of them before I became a stand-up kid. They all sucked. Yeah, exactly. That's not a job. This ain't work, man. Yeah, that's how I feel. Yeah. Today is all about friends. We're gonna talk about how to be a better friend, why friendships matter so deeply. I have the woman here that's gonna help you with it.

1:27:58My guest today is Dr. Marissa Franco. She is currently a New York Times bestselling author of the new book called Platonic, How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. She's also got a Ph.D. in counseling psychology. She's been an expert on, you know, different programs, including Good Morning America and now on the Ed Milet Show. So, Dr. Franco, great to have you here. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. So what about your work? Because you say how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. So what is the science of attachment? I want to get to the root of this before we leave.

1:28:34What is the science of attachment? And in your words, before we leave and take as much time as you want, how does that help us make and keep friends? The science of attachment? it. Yeah. So as I sort of sifted through the research on friendship, what I found was that our personalities are fundamentally a reflection of our experiences of connection or disconnection, whether I am open, warm, trusting, cynical. All of these things are predicted by whether I've had healthy connection in the past. But not only that, if I've had that healthy connection, I cultivate a number of traits that contribute to me continuing to connect.

1:29:16Right. And that's, if I am securely attached, I've had those healthy relationships. I begin to display these healthy behaviors that allow me to continue to attach to other people, insecurely attached people. They haven't had, Oh, did you want to ask me? No, I'm profoundly agreeing with you right now. Keep going, please. Yes. Um, insecurely attached people. They haven't had healthy connection in the past, they carry around this unconscious template for connection, either that everybody is going to abandon me or sort of betray me. And this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They look out for instances where this is true.

1:29:52They do not register instances that are counter to this assumption. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy too, Ed, because if I think you're going to abandon me, when the situation is ambiguous, you might be hangry, for example. I think you're rejecting me. I reject you. I become cold and withdrawn. And then you reject me because you feel rejected by me, right? And so if we don't understand our own attachment, which is really our internal template for how people are treating us, which then affects our own behaviors in our relationships, we will continue to think the world is just cruel. People just reject me.

1:30:27People can't be trusted. And if we understand our own attachment, we can be empowered to think there are behaviors I can change so that I can foster deeper connections with others. I love you. This is exactly why. No, this is exactly the question I asked you earlier, where I think we agree, but we word it differently. You're so flipping right. So my main male relationship was with my dad. And my dad was a drinker when I was young and wouldn't show up. And I started to build these belief systems. You're talking about that idea that, hey, maybe you shouldn't have people around you that are different than you until you're ready because you haven't had these healthy other relationships.

1:31:03You were using the example with you earlier. And you're very right about it because my, when I had male relationships in my life, I thought, well, they're all going to lie to me. They're all going to eventually leave. They're all going to screw me over. They're all going to do this or that because of the one relationship I had with the most important male that had happened. And I had to really learn in my relationships, not to project that pattern and dynamic into my new friendships. And early in my life, you're so right early in my life, I lost a lot of friendships because I would jump to the conclusion that that was happening.

1:31:32because it looked like what it used to look like. And so I'd go, oh, they're doing it. They lied right there. They're like my dad. Well, no, they're a human and they fibbed a little bit and they're still a really good person who loves me. It doesn't mean all these other things are going to happen. And so that's why your work matters so much because you're exactly right about that. And it's worth going back the last three minutes there and evaluating what Dr. Franco just said because we do do that in our patterns in our relationships. We do sort of project into them that way. and I totally agree with that and that's why I was nodding I certainly wasn't trying to jump in and interrupt you there because I think that was gold I think you are too I think your work, I just want to tell you thank you for doing the work you do This is the Ed Myland Show