How to Become a Great Leader with David Novak

26:51You can feel it. It's a frequency. It's an energy in a company. and then these folks that don't have it wonder why they can't move like other companies can't pivot and change. It's the lack of a place of open feedback, which is listening, in my opinion, and a recognition-based culture where we are trying to find a way to make you feel good, not catch you doing something wrong because people will live up to how you treat them and they will do more for recognition than they will money. That's just my opinion. I couldn't agree with you more, you know, and that's why, you know, you know, I write about trusting and positive intentions.

27:27You know, you know, how many companies just create all this bureaucracy trying to catch the one tenth of one percent of the hundred percent that that goes wrong. They put these processes in. I love like how Kendra Scott has a great philosophy for for customers when they come in her her her shops. okay and she trains people she doesn't give a manual with like you know 20 page you know 20 inches of of rules she says how would you treat your sister the sister rule i mean that is that is brilliant that is so good you know and you know but you know i think that she and they believe in recognition you know southwest airlines believes in recognition all the great company believes in recognition.

28:19But the leader, it has to start with the leader. I know you know this, you know, because, you know, I know how you think, you know, leaders cast a shadow. People do what the leader does. Okay. And if you don't show people that you value them, if you don't show them that you believe in recognition, the people below you won't do it either. They just have a tendency. And that's where you find those dead companies. You find those dead companies where that leader is just sitting in their office, sitting on their ass, doing nothing, you know, thinking that they're doing something, but not doing what they could be doing.

28:55They might be really smart, but they're only getting about, you know, a 10th of what they could get out of that organization. And they don't know it because they're not self-aware, which is what you talk about later in the book to self-awareness as a leader, also a trait. That's one of my favorite. Even if you have an odd personality quirk, it becomes redeeming when you're aware of it and make fun of it. Even if you have a bad temper a little bit, everybody, which is not a great quality as a leader, at least if you were aware of it and made fun of yourself about it, it would lose some of its sting.

29:28I'm not saying have a bad temper, but self-awareness is huge. So if you merge these two things together for me because you own this content because you've lived it. What's managed two up and two down mean? I know what it means, but I want you to tell them after reading. and self-awareness wrapped around it. Okay. Manage two up and two down. Okay. I think if you're coming up in an organization, you obviously want to have a great relationship with your boss. Okay. And, you know, so you need to know how they're thinking, what they're thinking, and you want them to know that you have their best interest at heart and that you're trying to help them in the organization.

30:08Okay. But you got to manage two up. You just can't focus on your boss. You got to focus on your boss's boss or go as high up as you possibly can. Okay. And that's when you got to realize when you get in with that person, that's one level or two levels up or more, that's when you got to make the most of it because that's when you show people you've got potential. You're not just doing the job that you're in. You want, when you get a chance to have that meeting or be with that person, you want to go in and you want to talk about the things that you would be doing if you were them or what the company could be working on that shows that you think about the business bigger.

30:43And so that person's going to look at you when it's time to look when they have your review process. They're going to say, oh boy, yeah, you know, that person has a heck of a lot of potential. Okay. So it's, you know, it's two up, two down. You have to motivate the people that work for you. You really do. Your direct reports and you want them to feel a part of your team. there's a law on leadership which I believe is no involvement no commitment so you you definitely want to get people involved and and make sure that you they everybody on your every one of your direct reports knows that you need them you value them and that you're looking for them to make you better because you know that you need them okay the two down is going to the front line go as close as you possibly can to the customer where it really happens and make sure that whatever you're thinking is really, really happening where it matters most, which is with the front line, who's making it happen for your customers and make sure that it really works.

31:42You need to validate, you know, your own assumptions and the thoughts that you may have. But I think that two up, two down is a great way to think about it. And, uh, if you really want to grow in a company, you better show the people above your boss that you got a heck of a lot of potential. what about their awareness level of themselves like to me i i can i connect with people who have a sense of themselves their strengths and their weaknesses right couldn't agree more you know that that's where i had what i called my three by five exercise okay and every year i do it myself and i put my i do a three by five card and i write down who am I today and what do I want to be tomorrow?

32:31Okay. So for example, believe it or not, when I was coming up, I was really enthusiastic, really passionate. That's hard to believe. Yeah. I mean, you know, but you know what, when you're 26, 27 years old, you're working around a lot of people because you're getting promoted faster than other people. You got to temper that enthusiasm. You got to temper that passion so that people will see you as more mature, but you have to be aware of how people think of you. You know, in my book, Taking People With You, I write about, you know, my leadership style and I'm a marketing person. That's how I came up.

33:11But in marketing, I always ask the question, what perception, habit, or belief do you need to change, build or reinforce to grow your business or grow yourself okay so when it came to people and and leading i would always ask myself what perception habit belief do i have to change build or reinforce to take people with me and they might say like when i was at pepsi wayne calloway was the chairman of pepsico i loved wayne i was with paul bear at his funeral we loved each other okay but he he he saw me as a marketing guy i went to him one time and i said you know and i'd always go in with those four or five ideas to show him i have potential and then he finally asked me faithfully he said you know uh david what do you want to do with your career i said well i want to be a division president he said well you're a really good marketing guy and i said well duane i want to be a division president he says you're a really good marketing guy i said well wayne i want to be a president he says i'll make you president of marketing we could improve pepsico's marketing function but when i walked out of that room i had the self-awareness i had the self-awareness that i was going to have to demonstrate that i was more than just a marketing guy that i wasn't just an airy fairy creative person that i could make money you know work with the front line get things done and that's when the job came open to be the chief operating officer for the pepsicola company And I went in and I took on a new challenge.

34:36And I definitely learned from this new challenge. But it was like I said to my boss, I said, look, you know, Craig Weather, he I said, if I don't do a good job in this job, you can fire me in six months, put me back in my fire, me, put me back in marketing. But you got to give me a chance. I begged him for the opportunity and I got that job. And that's how I end up being the president of KFC. That's awesome story. That is an awesome story. And what I got to say, everybody's like, to some extent, it's read the room. I've watched my intensity over the years be a bit too much for people when I was younger.

35:12And I learned to temper that and soften it to some extent. Actually, even poke fun at myself for having it, just like what you just did. And it's an important quality of a great leader. I've been dying to ask you this question, and it's not in the book, but it's got to do with leadership. so maybe the most read business book the last decade or so is good to great by jim collins have you read the book yes i'm talking about okay i'm interested if you can be candid philosophically whether you agree and so everybody let me just put it to you this way collins premise is basically get the right people on the bus if you're a leader of a company but that ironically most companies aren't led by great visionary super charismatic high energy people that's a that's an overall summary that's not fair to what the book truly says, but I'm making a generality.

36:00And then I've always thought, yeah, that's true. But then I've looked at business. I'm like, well, that's Steve Jobs. That's not Sam Walton. That's not Elon Musk. That's not Mark Cuban. That's not Jack Welsh. So I've watched some pretty charismatic, vision-stretching, dynamic people lead great movements in my career. And so I've always wanted to ask somebody who is an expert and has known these actual people you know them and you've seen companies of all different types succeed and fail where do you come down philosophically on that well i think that jim collins if i recall in that book talked about these leaders that he's talking about being level five leaders they didn't necessarily have to have that that charisma and all that kind of good stuff okay um and i think it is possible to be an excellent CEO without having a ton of charisma.

36:56But I think having a little charisma actually helps a hell of a lot. Now, here's what he's trying to get at, is that the leader that's got all this charisma and is a promoter, okay? Nailed it. I know where you're Then, you know, that leader, okay, that leader is not, you got to watch out for them. So that's why he talks in his book about the importance of being a clock builder, okay? And that's putting process and discipline around what really matters. So I would say, hey, if I could have somebody in my company, lead my company, that had charisma, okay, that can fire up the troops, that could be inspirational and had an appreciation for building the clock, process and discipline around what really matters, I'd take that person over a, let's say, a level five boring leader that everybody really appreciates them for how smart they are.

38:01Now, they both can be very effective. But leadership has to flex. You mentioned Elon Musk. I read his book, the book Walter Isaacson's autobiography or biography on Elon Musk. Have you read that yet, Ed? No. You've got to read it, okay? Because Elon Musk is a furniture breaker. I wouldn't do hardly anything that he does because he's just damn tough on people, you know? Yeah. But what he's tried to do and to be a true innovator, he had to break some furniture to get it done. and he worked his ass off and he's got his vision and he got people around him who ultimately will follow him now yeah he's not worried too much about taking people with you you kind of find you get on his highway or you get off of it okay yeah and that's rare right i i look at it like i to be honest with you i by the way i've recommended colin's book as much as any book i've ever recommended but i've also looked at business and i think what he's warning against is these super high-energy charismatic leaders lack humility sometimes, lack self-awareness, lack the ability to still learn.

39:11So to me, if you're a high-energy, super charismatic leader, you especially need to read David's book because it comes with the territory. When you're a big driver and high energy and visionary, you really better have the skills of learning, fostering this environment that he's describing, recognizing other people. So to me, it's kind of a combination of both. I just love your answer about that too. What about process and discipline? But you use it in the book like a golf comparison is the way that you do it in the book. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. You have to have a process and discipline around what really matters.

39:47In every business, in every team, there's things that really matter. And if you want to have great execution, you can't leave them to chance. You've got to have process and discipline. So think about let's just take Jason Day, for example. okay a great golfer you watch him on television right he closes his eyes okay you know he visualizes the shot okay what's a good shot look like okay he opens his eyes he sees that shot he goes in there and he does the same thing every single time because he knows that he's got visualization visualization is the key to him really pulling off the shot all these guys have great golf swings, but do they see the shot?

40:33And if you see the shot, you have a real good chance of hitting that shot. And I think in business, you have to have process and discipline around what really matters. I mean, if you want to make your customers happy, you got to measure customer satisfaction in some kind of way and hold people accountable for that. Measures a lot of times can be boring, but they're very important because measures show people what you really expect, as you well know. But those measures should be around what really matters. You know, so many times people have a thousand measures. They're measuring everything. I remember when I went to pizza, you know, I couldn't believe the measurement book we had.

41:18And I said, people, you know, I think people can only remember what, three of the Ten Commandments? What makes you think you're going to remember 20 things here and all these things are not created equal. So leaders have to be disciplined enough to figure out what really matters in their business and then build the clock around it. So good. I just think in listening to you, how cool this time in history is that for free right now, somebody is in your brain about this topic because that this space exists now, 25, 30 years ago, there'd be no access to you in a live conversation. It's like, I guess what it goes to is my gratitude for what we're doing right now.

42:00Every once in a while in these interviews, I go, this is crazy. Good. This is crazy. Good. And I want to acknowledge that with you. I'm just so grateful for your, your wisdom. It's just, it's just very special that we get to talk about this. So I told her we're going to move all over the place, but I've had a hard time over the years letting people go. And one of the things I've had other people in my companies tell me, one of my strengths is that I believe in people so deeply. It's also, I've been criticized for, you know, I see people as they can be, sometimes not as they are. And over the years, I've seen them as they can be, and they just never became it.

42:39And I've had a hard time letting people go. so literally not doing it and then when i do it not being incredibly great at it frankly it's a huge weakness of mine and you talk about it in the book so i want to ask you about that letting people go both ways go sore to the top and go bye-bye yeah yeah well you know first of all i love your approach if i if i got a bet on somebody i'll bet on somebody that's rounding up on people and believing in them and seeing the potential that they have. But I think what people like yourself, myself, we had to learn, okay, is the importance of holding people accountable, all right?

43:23And as much as you might believe in a person, if they're not executing what needs to be done, then you have to do something about it. Now, my big belief is you coach first. you you you you have to coach first and you give people a chance to go change and take that coaching get the self-awareness because sometimes people don't have good self-awareness and then if it doesn't work really i'd really watch very closely how that person is taking the feedback and if they're not really making some changes then you hit them with a two by four okay you you are like hey listen pal you know my friend if you don't change it's this a bad ending to this movie okay and then if they don't change then you fire okay then you and but you can look yourself in the mirror because you you know that you've coached them you there's no the worst thing that can happen is when somebody comes into your office and is surprised that you feel this way about them and you're taking them out right there should be no surprises okay um but i think what really happens and is really great is when you have your approach you give people feedback you're telling them that they have a chance to to be something and they soar i'll give you a great example this i was so blessed to work with as our original chairman at young brands uh andy pearson At the time, he was around 70 years old.

44:57I was 44 or so, you know. And we also had Jamie Dimon on our board, okay? And I became the, I was the CEO. And he said to me, he said, David, you and Jamie Dimon are going to be the two best CEOs of your era. Now, Jamie Dimon certainly was. I'm not putting myself in his league at all, okay? But what I'm saying is that that confidence, that belief that he had in me and what I could become and the kind of results that I could drive, man, and he was a tough guy, okay? Which even made it better because he had high standards. And that's another reason why you have to take out the underperformers because if you allow that, that demotivates the top performers, okay?

45:44so you know really you know i think that having the fact that andy pearson had those high standards would say that to me and and he i i respected him so much man i would have gone through a wall for him but it gave me confidence that i needed to do because i was frankly i don't know what that what's that phrase that i'm it's a little technical for me imposter syndrome whatever you know i mean we're all you know when you're moving up you're all faking your way through something at some point. Even Tom Brady said, well, you don't have confidence, fake it until you make it. You know, it's like, you know, it's kind of in our, you know, but, but you know, I think that's how I look at it.

46:25And I really think that's a really important role for a leader. And because I really believe this one final comment on this, it comes back to, do you want to be a part of something great or not? The best thing you can do as a leader, is have an A-team mentality. If you're on this team, you've got to be an A-player. Gosh, that's so good. I mean, God almighty. That gets people excited. I read a book a long time ago. It was about the Celtics. I'm messing this up, of course. But it was team ego. That back at one point, the leaders didn't have ego, but the team did. meaning when you throw this uniform on, you just play different when you're a Celtic.

47:14The Yankees have that. If you can create that culture in your company, like this is the A team. We've got greatness happening here. When you get to the top of this thing, greatness is going to happen for you. I just really believe that, creating that culture. I want to ask you about mentors. So you mentioned Jamie Dimon. I remember it right. Sandy Wilde kind of mentored Jamie when he was a young guy. Until he fired him. Until he fired him. That's right. Exactly. But it was a mentor to him when he was young. And then he did fire him. But in your case, did you have a mentor and should a leader, a CEO of a company find a mentor outside?

47:47Do you believe of creating mentoring environments within your company where someone sort of got a ride along mentor? Or is that not part of the structure that you've set up over the years? What we tried to focus on was creating a coaching mentality. OK, you know, a lot of people think that it's when you're a mentor, you got to commit to that person. It's not just a, you know, I mean, it takes time. So you can't really mentor a lot of people, in my opinion, because I think it takes such a such a big commitment. But, you know, Andy Pearson was a mentor. I was very lucky. I would or I'd rather say blessed.

48:23OK, that when I was coming up, I never worked for somebody who didn't run a function or end up running a company. They were all great leaders, you know, and they all invested in me. So I never had the bad, bad boss. I am so glad. You know, I get asked about how do you handle a bad boss all the time? I said, well, it's a tough one for me to answer because I never had one. Okay. But I had all these people who invested in me, but they were coaches, you know. But I never really, you know, I would go to people that could coach me on things. Like when I became CEO, I didn't have any financial experience with Wall Street.

48:57So I finagled my way into Warren Buffett's office in Omaha. Okay. and I went to see him basically for 17 years every year and we became friends and I learned from him and he taught me so much about how to deal with Wall Street let me give you a good this is a great insight I think your listeners will like this he talked to me about the concept of sober selling he said David I bet you really love your brands oh I said yeah I do and he says he said do you ever tell people what could go wrong? And I said, no, I'm really trying. I'm selling my company, to be honest with you. I don't really tell them what.

49:36He said, tell people what could go wrong. It'll give you more credibility. And so what I did is I started going at the end. I said, now I've told you all about our company, but let me tell you the three things that could go wrong if you invested in our company. Many times they'd start arguing with me and tell me, ah, that's not going to happen. Didn't matter. The fact that I, but, but that was, that was, but that's what you can get when you seek out learning from others, when you seek out best practices. See, that's the power. See my, look what happened to my IQ points. I don't, I guarantee if I took an IQ test and I've said this many, many times to many, many people, I'd probably just be average.

50:16I don't think I'm really any smarter than anybody else, but my learning IQ is off the charts. And that's how I survive. That's how I flourished is because of that mindset. Likewise, my IQ is average to maybe subpar. You said that in the beginning of the interview, by the way, I was going to stack that great point that as you're learning, you're stacking IQ points. I never looked at it that way, but that probably explains why I became moderately successful in my life because it certainly wasn't based on my baseline. It was based on what I acquired through learning. I think another reason, Ed, I want to say why you're successful is that you're other-directed.

50:54You really genuinely care about other people learning and other people gaining your knowledge. I think the people who have the blessings that you and I have had that keep them to ourselves, they're just being selfish. And when people know that you've got their best interests in heart, they're going to buy what you're into. And I don't mean just sales. I'm just talking about they're going to buy into who you are, what you're all about, and want to help you get to where you want to go. And it just happens that way. What a great point. You know, you interviewed like 100 great leaders for this book.

51:29I think I'd be remiss if I didn't share that with everybody else. I mean, there's 80, 100 leaders in this book. So it's not just you. And I'm wondering, could you deduce any common traits between them, common practices of active learning, anything that you saw that overlapped or traits that stood out amongst these people? I think the biggest trait is what I talked about earlier, the combination of confidence and humility. But I do think that all of them learned how to listen. You know, I remember talking to Ken Chenault, who had a great track record running American Express. he thought he was really good at listening and and he found out that uh when he went into meetings they called it the kin zone because he if if if you didn't say what he was thinking you ought to say he went into this zone and nobody thought he was paying attention to anything okay and he learned that and he said so i really really tried to be a much better listener and it took me five years before finally someone said, hey, Ken, you're a really good listener, okay?

52:33But I think listening is a really key trait. The other thing that I think the really best leaders are, they're pattern thinkers. They're very good at learning what's going on in one industry or with their competitors and then saying, okay, if it's working over here, how can I make something similar work in my business, okay? and and then they come up with new ideas i mean i i can tell you that's how i developed most of my best ideas when i was uh working with frito-lay and and pepsi and and and young brands is that you know i did pattern thinking i saw what other people were doing and that led to cool ranch doritos i saw what other people were doing and that led to the the lover's line of pizzas you You know, you know, I saw what other people were doing and, you know, it led to, you know, adding know-how building to our culture, you know, all these things.

53:29So it was like, hey, if they're doing it over here and it's successful, why can't we do it? What a great key. What a great. I was thinking when we were prepping, I got we're running out of time. This flew by like we should do three of these. I'm eating this up because to me, this is like this is life. This is what I thrive on. This is the topic that, you know, the people that you've been around and what you've achieved yourself is just so remarkable. I was prepping for this and I was thinking, who are my favorite leaders I've had in my life, you know, that I worked with or for? And it's really interesting.

54:02I got to tell you guys, just to confirm all of his philosophy and theory here, they were the ones who listened the best to me, that asked me the most questions, that I thought valued my opinion the most. They're also the ones that didn't just publicly recognize me, but privately. And would tell me, Ed, I'm proud of you. You know, Ed, you're special. You know, I remember those conversations 30 years later. You just shared one from 30 years ago yourself where someone tells you that it's these private recognition in addition to public is so significant. But as I watch you and I've watched other leaders, I want to ask you one last question.

54:40It's just something I've noticed. It doesn't have to do with learning, but it's a leadership question because I've asked you so much about the book. I still want them to get the book, right? By the way, guys, it's How Leaders Learn. How Leaders Learn, Master the Habits of the World's Most Successful People. By the way, I did another intro about his first book that you can also go get, which he's published as well, which is Taking People With You. But go get this one, How Leaders Learn, for now. I want to ask you about storytelling. I'm watching you, and you're great at it. You're a great storyteller.

55:08and most leaders I've been around that can move people have bought into the idea of facts tell but stories sell and if they can learn this little nuanced ability when they're listening to people to tell them a story that paints a picture somehow it's just a little thing I've noticed over the years that seems very common amongst the people that can captivate humans and lead them is the vast majority know how to tell a story and they're conscious of learning to tell more stories rather than just spew data and information. I'm just wondering if you've noticed that too. It's something that you've had to work on.

55:47Have you just always been good at it? Just your overall thought about that. I think storytelling is the way that people will remember what you have to say. I mean, people will remember stories and it took me a while to pick up this trait. You know, it's funny i i i look at this conversation that we're having and i've i've loved every bit of this i mean it's been so much fun for me and i can articulate what i believe and tell you stories and you know but if if i gotta talk about pattern thinking i'll talk about you know cool ranch doritos if i gotta talk about failure i'll talk about crystal pepsi you know these are things that happened in my life if i gotta talk about recognition i'll tell that bob story you You know, yes.

56:35But let me tell you something for all of you coming up in in your career. This does not happen when you just get out of school. It takes you time and grade to really pick up these traits. People don't believe it when I tell them I used to be a terrible presenter. I used to say, you know, a thousand times I would tell a stupid, goofy joke just to relax myself before I even got into my presentation. and now people will actually pay me to give speeches, you know? And it's like, I can't believe this is actually happening to me, okay? But it's not something that you roll out of bed and pick up. But you should learn from the fact that as you're going through life, think about those stories that you see that you can apply to your business and with your family.

57:26And because people will remember what you're trying to say so much better. If you can get people to drink the water for themselves, I always say telling isn't selling. It isn't. You want to have people draw their own conclusions because it's infinitely more powerful. When you tell those stories, it makes a difference. When I tell that Bob story, everybody says, God, I got to do a lot better job recognizing. One other point on this. unfortunately you know just four weeks ago my wife wendy passed away she was my truth teller in life we were married for 49 years i'm so sorry and my daughter did a eulogy and i did a eulogy and when i first walked into that church ed i couldn't get one sentence out i cried i still have waves of tears i still do but i went back in did it again went back in did it again went back in and did it again but we gave my wife such a tribute and it was such a celebration because of one reason we told everybody's stories about wendy louise novak and it was those stories that people and you know what people walked out of this it was an unbelievable service we had drew holcomb come who sang you know our favorite songs fly gratitude i wrote a song for wendy that was sung at the uh that i'd written i gave it to our 48th wedding anniversary and then we had amazing grace and we had a great our the servant the the minister was incredible you know it was But people walked out of that service and said, I'm going to be a better person.

59:20I need to love my wife more. And they remember the stories. And that's what people resonate with. And boy, I mean, I'm with my wife like you cannot believe, okay? but the stories and the moments and the memories that we have with each other you know i'm trying to move it from being sad to glad okay but it's it's those stories that the things that she did that i remember that had impacted my life so much and and that's that's what i think it's all about and storytelling is critical god bless you i'm so sorry for your loss i get emotional too. So, um, I just would never know that happened four weeks ago with the way you showed up today.

1:00:18You're just such a remarkable man. And thank you for being willing to share that with everybody. What a, what a blessed conversation. I'm so grateful that we did this together today. And, um, I'll say an extra prayer for you and your family tonight as well. And part of that prayer is gratitude for such a great experience today. I'm, I'm immensely grateful for the time. So thank you so much, David. I'm grateful. I was really just so honored to be asked to be on this show. I mean, this is an amazing job that you do. I mean, you're doing good in the world. And I know you're a happy guy because the happiest guys in the world are other directed and you are.

1:00:57Well, so are you, brother. You just helped so many people today. And I just cannot get over the way you showed up with this energy and your kind and giving heart and your brilliance. So I'm so grateful for today. Wow. Just, just wow. Wow. Wow. Uh, it's David Novak, everybody and how leaders learn master the habits of the world's most successful people of which he is absolutely one of them. And today was just awesome. I, this is one I probably don't need to ask you all to share. I think it was probably shared about 40 minutes ago already when we just got going. But again, grateful for the time today, David and everybody else.

1:01:32God bless you and max out your life. This is the Ed Myland Show.