How to Deal with Difficult People Without Losing Yourself

26:44That you have become dominated. This entire ride, I'm a nice guy in the backseat. He probably could have learned a few things from me or about me. I always try to learn things about the person I'm with, learn from them. He spent that entire ride in anger all over the place. I mean, it was, I felt, I got out of the car, I felt empathy. Now, I could have got angry back and said something about a point he said that didn't make sense, or I could have agreed with one and joined him in his area. Yeah, you're right about the tariffs. I'm like, my gosh, this was the last 30 minutes of your life. You certainly were pretty dadgum out of control and immature.

27:22You know exactly what I'm talking about. He's like, I had to block my family on Facebook because they like him. And I said, you've blocked your family? Yeah, we don't get together anymore. over you guys arguing? What? Are you serious? This is your blood? Like your mom? Really? You don't talk to your mom because she has a different opinion than you about someone neither one of you have ever met before and never will meet. Wow. I just got out of the car. I felt such empathy. I was proud that I didn't join him in his anger about it or refute it and get more angry with him to prove him wrong. That would have been a race to the bottom, huh?

28:00What if I disagreed with everything he said? So now we're back and forth. Angry, more angry. Put him down. Put that down. Well, what about Biden? Well, what about this? I could have gone back the other way. That would have been a pleasant drive. Great way to spend 30 minutes of my life, right? Or joined him in his anger. You're right. Can you imagine that this has become normalized in our culture, in our society? It's what most of you listen to every day. You just feed yourself more of it. How's your heart feel? How's your spirit feel? How's your inflammation? I'm not saying don't listen to be informed.

28:34I'm not saying don't stand up. I'm not even saying don't scream from the rooftops about issues that matter to you. But are you serious? This is an all-consuming reality TV show that you're not in, but you think you are. Literally got from the car, got to the airport, got on the airplane. I'm not kidding you. And now I sat next to somebody who loved Trump, but that wasn't the conversation. hates liberals hates them said words that i won't even repeat about biden and who they back and these they're for the party of the blah blah blahs and the blah blah blahs and anger man anger wound up by the way they both think they're complete experts they had anger angst frustration put downs um really divisive language the trump hater had and unbelievably divisive language that Biden kind of liberal hater guy had.

29:32And then I'm like, well, wait a minute. I'm going to sit next to this one for three hours. I've just had 30 minutes with the other guy on the other side. I ain't doing this. So at some point I literally said, I touched his arm. I said, brother, I could tell you're really passionate about this. I just want you to know I am not spending the next three hours and these emotions with you. You seem like a great guy, man. Seem like a great guy. I love your passion for what you're doing. I'm going to put my headphones on. I'm going to listen to some great music. And if this was the last three hours of my life, I ain't spending it this way.

30:03I'm completely clear on your opinion. I could read everything you just said on the internet. By the way, same thing with the other guy. And what we do in our life is then we surround ourselves with people who completely validate these emotions. You're right. You're right. You're right. This dude that drove me in the Uber can't even conceive of somebody who disagrees with any of the points. And neither could the guy on the airplane, the other side. I just thought we are one wound up culture. And by the way, one guy thought he was a victim to everything Biden did. The other guy thought he was a victim to everything Trump did.

30:31They blamed. They both looked for external validation by being right about it from a stranger in me. Neither one of them had the total truth. And they're both choosing what was really easy over what was right, which might be to listen, might be to listen, might be to learn. I know some would say, hey, you got to stand for something. You got to have an opinion. Absolutely you do. And I believe in that. I also believe that there's an articulate, loving, kind, and actually influential way to stand for something and have an opinion. And that is not the way to do it. Behaving emotionally ridiculous in a totally immature way is not the right way to take a stand or to have an opinion or to create any difference or change, or is that you're really not interested in creating any change.

31:17You're interested in being angry. You're interested in biting your chest. You're interested in being a victim. You're interested in angst. You're interested in stress. You're interested in getting validation for it. But if you really wanted to persuade, if you really wanted to take a stand, you would probably do it in an emotionally mature way where you'd be much more articulate, where you wouldn't put people on the defensive, where you might actually persuade somebody. and you only do that when you've connected emotionally to somebody, where there's a spiritual connection, where there's an energy that says, I can trust you and like you and believe in you and that you treat me as a brother or a sister and you have my best interest in mind.

31:59That's not what I see or hear almost any of the time. And that's why I make the point that I'm making. And again, I love passion, but what I'm saying right now, even as I say it, many people would probably disagree because it's just our culture now. It's the mind virus we now live in. What did they do today? What did he do today? What's happening in the world today? And I know some of these things are very serious. They affect our pocketbooks. They affect health. They affect rights. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about getting wound up to the point of irrationality, of it being all-consuming, where it literally takes from your life and the quality of the life of the people around you, and you vibrate at a lower frequency.

32:40You're further from God. You're not as productive. You don't have as much energy for the right things because you've expended it on ridiculous things. And you spend your life in these emotions. And then, by the way, you leave this planet. I know you want to make it a better one. I know you want to change it. But you're also supposed to enjoy your time here to some extent and contribute, not just say what's wrong, to contribute. And so these are things I've noticed. I think emotional immaturity and spiritual immaturity is at an epidemic rate in our culture. And what it contributes to overall, ask yourself this, especially if you disagree with the last thing I said, does that contribute to more kindness, more peace, more gentleness, more understanding, more elevated ways of living, or has it gotten a bit extreme?

33:34Just a bit extreme. So hey guys, have you ever noticed your sheets slipping off the corners lately? I mean it may sound like a weird question, but it bugs me. Or maybe your pillows, they just don't feel like they support you anymore. Most people actually keep their bedding way longer than they should. And I'm telling you, on the podcast, the most important thing we keep talking about for your energy, your wellness, and your longevity, and your cognitive function is sleep. And that's why I upgraded our bed with Bowl & Branch. They make everything your bed needs. Their signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters are all designed to be breathable, incredibly soft, and better over time.

34:13I'm telling you, I'm kind of chuckling because they're so comfy and my sleep has improved so much. Upgrade your sleep with Bowl & Branch. Get 15 % off your first order plus free shipping at bowlandbranch.com slash mylet. And use code mylet. That's bowlandbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash mylet. Code mylet to unlock 15 % off. Exclusions apply. It's always when you stop doing something that you realize how much it mattered. I'd been taking IM8 for a while. I was feeling great. And then life just kind of got busy and we switched houses. And then I skipped a bunch of days. My energy dropped.

34:49My focus was gone and it reminded me just how much it had been helping me the entire time I was taking IM8. If you've been looking for something easy to stick with that actually makes you feel better, this might be it. For me, it's becoming something I rely on. I notice when I miss it. Give your body what it deserves with IM8. Go to im8health.com slash ed and use code ed for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10 % off your order. Seriously, this is one of those offers you'll wish you jumped on sooner. That's imahealth.com slash ed and use code ed for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10 % off your order.

35:29imahealth.com slash ed, code ed. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. So whether it's people that create emotional immaturity in your life and you're around emotionally immature people, topics, situations, circumstances, all of it can trigger an emotionally immature person to behave in an emotionally immature way. My driver was a grown man yelling, driving me in his Uber, dropping F-bombs about someone he's never met before while I sat in the back of his car. The guy on the airplane next to me was using profanity and derogatory names for certain groups of people that was beyond disgusting.

36:12And they're both on different sides of the aisle Both incredibly emotionally immature people There has to be a way to elevate the conversation Where it would actually be productive and mature So whether it's world issues Or whether it's personal relationships I want to challenge you to not have a race to the bottom Race to the top, elevate, observe, listen Communicate with dignity, kindness, generosity And most of all, intelligence The most intelligent you is the least wound up and the most calm. Isn't she? Isn't he? Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far.

36:51Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners. But in this case, this man's work is so good. And I mean this I sought him out I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene that is doing work that is not like everybody else's That it's his own and then I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a productivity standpoint a peace of mind standpoint An influence standpoint and he's got a book out right now called the next conversation argue less talk more and I consider him and I don't say this often to be a communication expert.

37:41And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour. You are going to learn so much and take so many notes today from Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, welcome to the show finally, brother.

37:50Jefferson Fisher:And thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored to be here. It's a pinch me moment. It's great to meet you. Let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss and personally supervised. But one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position.

38:27Is there a way to sort of wrestles the wrong word, but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a commerce? You know what I mean when I say that, that you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything. You're not. They're in charge. You're not. They're picking the restaurant. You're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first, because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

38:58Jefferson Fisher:Let's split the dynamic, too. Let's say it's if it's one on one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity, most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat.

39:33Jefferson Fisher:We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication. temptation. The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance.

40:08Jefferson Fisher:Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation, typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

40:45You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said, actually, great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader, correct? Correct. Correct.

40:58Jefferson Fisher:Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them.

41:42Jefferson Fisher:When they're on the floor of whatever is happening, instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. and they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority, people are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation.

42:17So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor. Bro, they're so good. You exhibit that, by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts, and then I was able to take advantage of that background.

42:49But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, there are fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I want to make sure everybody gets the book, too, because we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation. Argue less. Talk more. What if you're with somebody who.

43:24I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper. They pick on you. They kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost passive aggressive in the way they say things. and you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples. There's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another in the way they communicate. And I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way?

44:06Is there a phraseology or a strategy for that?

44:09Jefferson Fisher:Let's separate it in two different categories. So one, let's say, is kind of this more just passive-aggressive bucket. The other is let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful or rude. So in this first bucket, this passive-aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they saw mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life. And they don't know how to express that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that, you know, there's something to that simple question of like, should I read into that?

44:43Jefferson Fisher:Or is there more to that? Or, and this goes for Chris Foss, a dear friend. And I love his, his question is, sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I also love, sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask, sounds like there's more to that or ask them, should I read into that? That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side of somebody saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound rude?

45:21Jefferson Fisher:Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Uh, did you say that to offend me? And when you say, did you mean? It is twofold. One is giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean, and it's going to allow them to fix it. Like, uh, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off instead of it saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The question asked the question, did you mean for that to sound short? Instantly, almost every time, but my, you know, it is like the, oh, no, no, no, no.

46:01Jefferson Fisher:Sorry. I'm picking up the kids or I, you know, I was checking out the grocery store, getting gas. You know, you, you get that, that K or okay. And you're like, oh, okay. I guess, I guess they hate me right now. All right. Like, I guess they're in a mood and then you naturally get in a mood and then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively. And now you're convinced, you convince yourself you're under attack. So it's this feedback loop that's helpful to you. So when you begin with, did you mean, it's a great way to set somebody to one, give them that grace of fixing it. But two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do.

46:35Jefferson Fisher:Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like that is a very quick way to address it out in the open and if they're going to double down on it or not. Will you do that in reverse? By the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're, I do this better in business than I do personal life. To be honest with you, in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid. When it comes to business, I'm pretty good at this.

47:09With friends and family, I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. So let's say we have gone back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that if the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you've said that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude?

47:35Jefferson Fisher:Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships, but I'd say even work too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, that's not what you've said. you said this and they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation in it. And you're like, I didn't even say it like that. And all of a sudden now you're going, that's not what I said. I didn't say it like that. You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed. And nine times out of 10, it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received.

48:07Jefferson Fisher:So instead of this, that's not what I said. Um, you are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard because that's what matters. Anytime you had that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication, instead of going, no, no, no, that's not what, that's not what I said and kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective. By the way, it's very hard to the judge. It's like making your own movie, but not having an audience and going, no, no, that's not how the movie goes.

48:41Jefferson Fisher:It's like nobody else has seen it. Only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask the question, what did you hear? And they explain it. That's when you say, that was not my intent, or I apologize for that impression. Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with, I can see. I can see how you'd feel that way. I can see how that come off. Whenever you say, I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why that would upset you. That I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turned to look the same way that you're looking and I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable.

49:20Jefferson Fisher:What you see is justified. You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes, boo. It naturally takes down the aggression, this I have to win. You have to see it what I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, like view, perspective, see, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood. And by that, they're going to be more receptive to the progress. This is so good. You guys, just so you know, when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff.

49:58And it, It may be in the top three most important things in life to be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity in a conversation and a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships. This is not stuff that's taught anywhere, yet it should be. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow The Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Here's an excerpt I did with our next guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. You know, today was a very important episode for me in terms of scheduling this today because I think it's such an important topic for a couple reasons.

50:36Number one, one of my great concerns in our culture right now is the way we talk with one another, the way we have conversations. It just seems to me over the last 20, 30 years in our culture, we've lost the ability to have a conversation with somebody that we might not agree with in a productive way. And I'm sure you all agree with me as well. It's become very difficult in our times to dialogue with somebody that you might have a disagreement with or have a difficult conversation with. The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life.

51:09Even with my kids, one of the things I hope they leave our home with is the ability to communicate, the ability to have a conversation with somebody. And it is a skill. And there are insights in how to do it better. And I just feel like it could change our world if we talk to one another better. And I think you'd agree with me too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest.

51:40His name is Chuck Wisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called The Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact. And I'm really excited to get into this topic. So Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

51:54Jefferson Fisher:It's a pleasure to be here. It really is for me. You know, a lot of times of all these people on my show that have these huge followings or guests, you know, that, you know, major notoriety. And I've always found that oftentimes it's the topics on my show that really move people. And more and more people are concerned about the way we talk with one another. And so I want to get right into it. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself?

52:29So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them. I want to go to the hard stuff first. Like I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican. Something like that. You know, these hard conversations. What are some of the keys in being better at doing it so it's actually a productive experience?

52:46Jefferson Fisher:There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very, the conversation will remain difficult. There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions. And we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get discombobled and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can slowly, we can say, okay, what's driving my opinion?

53:24Jefferson Fisher:And we sort of can open our hand and go, this is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking. This is what my standards are. There's four archetypal questions in the book. this is what I'm worried about this is my concern here's what I'd like we can start to just open our hands and say okay I have an opinion let's dance with that let's see what we can learn from each other that's a very different conversation with fists and fists coming at each other yeah you also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself is to fall in love with asking questions right you're talking with somebody whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement or you got to talk about something different like I've used I've used politics as an example because it's the big one right right like they're good we're bad I'm right you're wrong and the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions right right and and the the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's driving my opinion what's driving my judgment and why am I so hooked on the thing right we can also the questions help us like each question help us open someone else's hand because we can ask well what what do you what do you really want what do you what do you desire here what do you want out of this what are your standards for measuring this this opinion that you have so our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist right yeah and and but we aren't trained to ask questions we're trained to have answers that's one of the major dilemmas and then we get into school and we're rewarded for raising our hand and then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room right right and that's a counter to the the opposite effect is asking questions well this notion of raising your hand was my next thing so you're reading my mind and i think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening.

55:25And that's why questions matter so much. And you're precisely right. In school, the teacher's still talking and asking the question. We're taught. We're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. And what that does to me, I want you to speak to this. To me, what that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say back to you in my answer or my judgment or my assessment about you. Most people are already raising their hand, you know, metaphorically, when most other people are still talking, and they wonder, why am I not connecting with this person?

55:56Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I want to say something and rather finishing and letting them finish their statement.

56:05Jefferson Fisher:Yeah, so our brain is spinning our answer. And so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person. Right. And part of that, actually, the main reason that is we get addicted to our position. Our ego and our identity gets addicted to, I believe this. And if I believe this is true, then that defines who I am. And that is often why we enter with fists or why we enter defensively and can't just say, okay, I do have an opinion. I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to see if I can explore really what's driving this other person's thinking. But I just want to go back for a second, everybody.

56:50First thing to ask yourself is, what's your ability to ask questions and to ask questions without judgment as someone's answering you? In other words, can you learn the art of not raising your hand metaphorically when someone's talking and be fully present with their answer, absent as much as you can of judgment? We'll talk about triggers in a little bit because you have some brilliant stuff in there on triggers, which I teach in other areas of life. I never thought about in terms of a conversation. But the one thing that opened my eyes and why I wanted you on, among many things, is this idea of there's four conversations.

57:23Right. And one of them is storytelling. But take the time on this and elaborate. What are the four different conversations and what do they mean?

57:30Jefferson Fisher:So these are four types of conversations. they organize the book and the reason they they work well to do that is they each conversation has its own lessons to learn tools to try practices to try on because each conversation demands different skill sets and they're all interconnected we're generally without knowing about the conversation we're just in conversation like fish and water and as soon as we get wait a there's storytelling, there's collaboration, there's creativity, and there's commitment conversations. Already, we have a different lens to think about conversations. That's right. If I took you to spend six months with the Inuits in Alaska, and they taught you there's 27 names for snow in those six months, when we came back to New England, you would never see snow the same way because all of a sudden you have distinctions about snow that allow you to see and perceive and have a different story about snow right conversation is the same way if we can begin to think about different conversations and different ways to listen and different ways to ask questions and why it matters we can't be in conversation as innocently right yeah yeah we go oh i get i need to wake up here a little bit because I'm locked down and I'm creating a fight because I'm locked down.

58:56Jefferson Fisher:Right. So that's why the four conversations are just the beginning to say we can start looking at conversations with a better lens. You know, so good. The four he said, by the way, I just want to make sure you get it are storytelling, collaborative conversations, creative conversations and commitment conversations. I want to give you a compliment on how your work helped me a little bit on the storytelling part or listening for someone's story um i have a friend who i was watching two friends argue one's very right wing and one's very left wing both these dudes i love i love both these guys yeah and i actually understand the perspectives of both of them and so the conversation was actually about welfare and uh taxes and my left-leaning friend was you know they were kind of arguing at first and you know you know you should be paying your fair share you don't want to help the underprivileged you don't know what this is like and the other guy's like wait a minute you shouldn't be lazy and you get a job and it should be temporary and the normal position they're both really getting ingrained in it it's like because of your work i'm like wait a minute and the one guy that was for welfare i said i said john i said brother really what's the story like why are you so passionate about that welfare should exist right god wanted to build a bridge between these dudes and anyway john who by the way you resemble john visually um john says he's a really strong masculine guy and he goes well man you guys don't know this but i was on welfare i was a little boy and it saved my family and there was a time where as a little boy i was actually with my mother on the street begging for money so we could eat and it was a horrible existence.

1:00:37I was a scared little boy and it was traumatic for me. And thank God my mother got on welfare. And you know what? My mother stayed on welfare for quite a while and my mom didn't really turn her life around, but I did. And now I'm a major league tax player. And I know you buddy over there on the right side, like all the taxes I'm playing, but you don't know what it's like not to have food. You don't. And I watched him tell the story and I had to force it. And I watched my right-leaning friend listen and the the judgment level which is what you talk about the judgment level was so far reduced where this is the case ironically where the story served us yeah and because he i kind of forced it because your work to listen and that kind of comes from questions and it goes to my next point with you you talk about triggers often this welfare conversation from my friend was a trigger why he was getting angry with the right-leaning friend Like, you're not sensitive.

1:01:31You don't care. He's triggered by that thing. Before we start the interview with my next guest, just want to remind you all that you can subscribe to the show on YouTube or follow the show on Apple or Spotify. We have all the links in our show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Now on with the show. Hey, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm honored to have this man here for the second time. The first time he was on the show, I sought him out saying, please come on the show because his book had made such an impact on me. And now he's got a new book out by the way before I introduce him called super communicators how to unlock the secret language of connection And it's a topic as you all know that I am fascinated by because I talk a lot about it on the show Except he's way more qualified than me And the reason he's way more qualified than me is this guy is a Pulitzer Prize winning writer He's a New York Times best-selling author and he's a renowned expert on habits And also now after reading his work.

1:02:21He's an expert on communication. So Charles Dewey welcome back to the show

1:02:25Jefferson Fisher:Thank you, Ed, for having me on. This is such a treat for me. Yeah, I love you, brother. You're going to listen to a big brain today, everybody, on a topic that you need to know more about. I've got to tell you why I love your book so much. We were just talking about kids off camera. There's a few things I want my kids to have left my house with. One, I want them to have some faith, which is their morals and ethics. I want them to have some work ethic, self-confidence. And if I could give them a fourth thing, it would be the ability to be an outstanding communicator. And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life.

1:02:54I'm sure you agree. what about difficult conversations yeah are those different in nature and are they i mean having to you know say listen your job performance isn't very good or i'm frustrated with you or you know something that's you know you're going into it knowing gosh i wish i didn't have to have this

1:03:12Jefferson Fisher:conversation but i do yeah or sometimes they catch you off guard right we're like i'm talking about one thing and all of a sudden i realize you're furious at me like i didn't pick up on that until just now. And so the answer is they abide by the same rules, but the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously because we were just talking about trust, right? I can establish trust by, by sharing something about myself. But if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, trust is already out the window, right? Like you're, you are, you're fight or flight is going off in your head like crazy.

1:03:43Jefferson Fisher:You can't trust someone easily just because like they ask you a question. So, and this has been a focus of a lot of study. How do we make conversations in conflict better? And there's basically two things. The first one is, I mentioned this looping for understanding, right? Asking a question, repeating back what you heard, and then asking if you got it right. That's enormously powerful in conflict. Because the first thing, the first suspicion I have, if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other, is you're waiting your turn to speak. You're not hearing what I'm saying, right? You're just waiting there.

1:04:18Jefferson Fisher:And like, I'm going to tell you my piece and then you're going to just bulldoze over me and I'm going to bulldoze back. So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove, I really want to understand what you're saying. Help me understand. I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict, and this happens a lot in marriages, this actually comes from marriage therapy and studies of marriage therapy, is that... It is natural when we feel threatened to want to control things. And the easiest thing to control is the other person.

1:04:53Jefferson Fisher:So you tell me your thing and I'm like, no, no, no, you don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence. You say something and you're like, I'm not even going to listen to this. I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage, that is the thing that destroys marriage. The alternative is I have a need for control. you have a need for control we feel threatened can we find things to control together so for instance can we control the timing of this fight instead of having it at two in the morning can we wait till it's 10 a.m and we're both a little bit more rested can we control ourselves can i let you know i'm going to take a second before i speak and i'm going to think about what you just said can i show you that i'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself and the third thing is we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself so one of the most toxic patterns in marriages is this thing called kitchen sinking where we start arguing about like where we're going to go for new years and then like five minutes later it's like and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money and like why are you such a jerk all the time right so a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything the healthy way to do that is to say we need to have a fight.

1:06:11Jefferson Fisher:Like we have a disagreement on something. Let's control the boundaries of it. We're talking about New Year's Eve. If my mother comes up and your money comes up, like we're just going to set it aside. That's another conversation another day. But then when we're controlling these three things, we're controlling, we're controlling ourselves. We're controlling the conversation, the environment, and we're controlling the boundaries of the fight or the conflict. We're controlling those as partners, Right? We're on the same side of the table. We might not agree on the topic we're discussing. Right. But you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other.

1:06:47That's outstanding. When you're talking about relationships and family, we're my, first off, I've made those mistakes. Me too. I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker. Yeah. You term it that way. Yeah. And so I think I've gotten better at it. I also think the longer you're with somebody, you have more stuff in the sink. And so it's even more important to avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation. Right.

1:07:10Jefferson Fisher:How long have you been married for? 26 years. OK, so I'm coming up on 20. And I'm sure this has happened to you. But tell me if I'm getting this wrong, which is there are these things. Literally, I can say two words and I know the entire fight in my wife's head. Right. It's like it's like and sometimes I don't even mean to say them. I'm just like, I like, I'm like, I'm like, well, you know, it's because like I earn more money than you. And then I'm like, oh, nuts. There we go. I just stepped in it. Like all to kitchen sink it. All I had to say was literally three words. You brought the whole thing.

1:07:42Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. And so the immediate thing I do is I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry. Whoops. Yeah. I did not mean to do that. Like, tell me what you're feeling because I want to, I want to give you a chance. But like, you know what? I've gotten better at that, Charles, with my kids too, of saying, you know what? I'm sorry. Let me take that right back. whereas before I'd almost double down or they didn't really feel it that bad. It'll be brushed under and, no, sometimes you just have to in the moment go, I'm going to yank that one back. And not only are you connecting with them, but think about the modeling you're doing.

1:08:10Jefferson Fisher:Right. You're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like, I'm absolutely certain your kids are going to copy that without even realizing it comes from dad. Yeah. That was a great conversation. Be sure to follow the Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So I'm excited to have this man on the show. I think he's got the best energy on all of television. In fact, I was just watching him on Speak on FS1 about, I don't know, an hour and a half ago. I was just literally watching him. So he changed out of those beautiful clothes he was on.

1:08:41He's got a sweatsuit for me. So that tells you what he thinks of me. I'm just kidding. I've had his brother on the show, Sam. He just comes from a remarkable family. Former NFL linebacker. This guy's done so much. Emmy a win-winning series that he's got that he produced called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. He had a great book called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy. So I figured I need to have him on so we can just have an uncomfortable conversation and change some lives. So Emmanuel Acho, welcome to the show.

1:09:12Jefferson Fisher:My brother, I've heard nothing but good things. I call you a brother because you've had my brother on, my blood brother, Sam Acho. Y 'all's conversation was fantastic. so I am looking forward to this dialogue, dude. I don't talk often outside of my sports show, but when I find genuine people and meaningful people, dude, I'm excited. Well, I'm grateful for that. Here's one of the things I reason why I think people have a hard time being persuaded. I want you to speak to this, and it's that if they change their point of view, they've disrespected their tribe or the group they're a part of. And there's a lot of pressure on certain—you're really smiling.

1:09:50There's a lot of pressure on certain people. There is for me in my role. Stephen was telling me, he goes, look, man, I'm on television. And an issue that comes up about race, he goes, while I'm on the air, I'm getting text messages from different people, very significant people, telling me, you better say this, you better do that. And he said, it's difficult for me because if I vary from what my, whatever it is, you could have a political tribe, a racial tribe, a religious tribe, whatever that might be. If I change my mind or I take a position that's not part of my group, somehow I've disrespected or I may lose that group in terms of their loyalty to me.

1:10:23And I really feel like there's a lot of that in life right now because these window friends or these other people around are like, wow, if I change my mind about this or I let them know I've changed my mind about this, I've disrespected or I could lose this group of people. And I think that's one of the reasons people neglect to change their mind sometimes. You see some of that and do you struggle with that?

1:10:45Jefferson Fisher:That's well said. I see it a lot. And the reason I do not struggle with that is because I believe that maintaining an ignorant opinion is to disrespect your own intellect. And I would rather disrespect my quote unquote tribe if my tribe is being ignorant than disrespect my own intellect if I have now unlocked the aperture of my mind to a new way, to a better way, to a more righteous way, to a more honest way, to a more just way. There is a lot of peer pressure to maintaining ignorance, but how can I maintain ignorance? I believe it was Maya Angelou who said, to know better is to do better. Like, once you know better, do better.

1:11:27When do you know if you should disengage from a conversation?

1:11:29Jefferson Fisher:I disengage from conversations when I realize the intention of the other person isn't actually to draw a conclusion. One of my favorite questions to ever ask anybody in life, and it came from Oprah. After I recorded my second episode of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, I sat down with Matthew McConaughey. He called me from a no-caller ID number. This is a true story, ladies and gentlemen. McConaughey says, hey, I want to sit down with you for your second episode of Uncomfortable Conversations. Mind you, I was producing it myself, Ed. I rented out a studio space in Austin by myself.

1:12:04Jefferson Fisher:I was not yet a mainstay television personality. I literally hired a wedding videographer because I had no video team. I found a friend who shot weddings. I said, please stand in. Shoot this for me. McConaughey watches the first episode. It had been seen by 25 million people in five days. And he says, hey, I want to have a conversation. I do not know to this day how he got my number. Me and Matthew McConaughey, we sit down for a conversation. Five days later, after that conversation airs, I get a call from another no-call ID number. I pick it up. Hi, Emmanuel. Oprah Winfrey speaking. I say, Oprah, she says, yeah, are you free to FaceTime later today?

1:12:41Jefferson Fisher:I FaceTime her later that afternoon. Again, true story, ladies and gentlemen. She asked me one simple question, Ed, one very simple question. And I live by this. This brings this conversation full circle. he said emmanuel what is your intention i said oprah my intention is to change the world and i truly believe i can i said i'm currently working on writing a book she said books i love books and that's why oprah and i partnered together to write the first several of the uncomfortable conversation series now bringing this full circle to answer your question incredible what is the intention of the person i'm talking to that is how i know when to end a conversation If the intention of the person is a gotcha moment, I'm out.

1:13:25Jefferson Fisher:What do I mean by a gotcha moment? Let's speak plainly. If the person just wants to try to make me look stupid, I'm out. If the intention of the person is to, figuratively speaking, dunk on me, if the intention of the person is to be like, boom, I got a manual, I'm out. If the intention of the person is not reconciliation, I'm out. If the intention of the person is not to hear what I have to say while simultaneously allowing me to hear what they have to say, I'm out. So the best question we can ask anyone during the course of conversation is the question that Oprah asked me first. What is your intention?

1:14:04When I was really young, I won my first incentive trip to go to Hawaii. I'd never been there before as a kid. We didn't do that kind of thing. And maybe you know who this guy is, but I'll share this with you about intention. So I got up. No one worked out back in those days. I'm old enough. And I read this book called The Corporate Athlete. This guy named Gropel. And I'm like, I'm going to be an athlete businessman, right? I'm going to be one of the first ones who's like fit and jacked, but in business. And so I'm running on this beach in the morning. Sun's not up yet. And there's this guy running towards me coming the other way.

1:14:36And I see him. How old I was. I had a Sony Walkman on playing a cassette. So did he. That's how old I am. Anyway, this dude's running by me. And he's getting close. I'm like, oh, he's a bald dude. He's got like this hairy back and I'm like, he's sweating. I'm like, I don't want to bump this guy. And as he runs by me, I look, it's Dr. Wayne Dyer, who was a hero of mine at the time. One of the great thought leaders, good men of all time. And I turn around, I go, Dr. Dyer, just to your point. And he turns around, he's about maybe like 20 feet from me. I said, you changed my life. And he goes, he had a deep voice like me.

1:15:09He goes, I doubt that. He goes, I bet you changed your life, but how did I help you? And he walks towards me. And I end up sitting on the beach that day, brother, with Wayne Dyer watching the sun come up. At the end of the conversation, just to validate your point, he says to me, he goes, Ed, I think you're going to change the world. Now I'm a young guy at the time. Probably he said that to 100 people. But to me, he had only said it to me. And he goes, it's not because you're a talented guy or brilliant or a great communicator. But he goes, I think you are. But he goes, it's because of your intentions.

1:15:39He goes, I think you have a good heart. I think you're a good man. I think you want to make a difference. And he said, would you do me a favor the rest of your life? Would you attach all of your confidence and your worth, not to your abilities or your results, but to your intentions? Because if it's about your abilities and your results, you'll be chasing your tail and letting yourself down all the time. And then he wrote a book called The Power of Intention. I've never been more convinced of what someone has said on my show than what you just said right there than any point ever made on the show.

1:16:07because that has literally been the key to whatever limited success I've had in my life is focusing on my intentions at all given times. So I just want to acknowledge what you said right there. It's profound and it's brilliant. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Welcome back, everybody. You know, we talk a lot on this program about communication. And one of the things we've not covered that is such a critical part of communication and maybe more importantly even what you say is your ability to listen to people.

1:16:42It's a huge part of communication. You know, I've taught you before that people don't respond to what they hear or see. They respond to how they feel when they interact with you. And one of the best ways to make somebody feel good is that they feel listened to and that they feel heard. And it's one of the skills that I struggle with the most, which is why I'm so excited to cover this with you today because quite frankly it's something that I've struggled with myself is my ability to just be present and to listen to people. And so like many of the shows, I'm excited to teach these things to you for your own benefit, but it also helps me in owning this material.

1:17:13And frankly, anything you teach to people, you end up owning more yourself. And so very, very excited to cover this with you here today. And like I said, it's not something I've been very good at my entire life as being a great listener. So I want to get right into it. And what caused me to do the show today is really two things. I had someone join me on my jet a few weeks ago on a pretty long flight, and there was a group of people, but one particular guy who's an entrepreneur, and I won't say who he is, but he spent a three-hour flight with me on my jet. So he spent about three hours with me, about a foot and a half from me.

1:17:44And for three straight hours, he did not ask me one question about myself. He did not listen to one thing I had to say, didn't ask me for any advice, and he talked about himself for three hours. And this is somebody prior to that flight that I really liked. I was struck, and so were other people in the flight than when they landed. And I don't mean that I'm a big deal or anything like that, but they were shocked why a rising entrepreneur wouldn't take advantage of the time of being with me to ask me questions. I think most of you, if we spent three hours together, you'd probably want to ask me a question or two.

1:18:12And he did not ask me one single question. And he talked about himself and his life and his background and what he had achieved and what he was going to achieve and what he was good at and all those things. And it was probably true, but I found myself when the flight was over, quite honestly, not liking him quite as much as I did before the flight because people don't like to hear about you all the time. People want to feel heard. They want to feel listened to, and he didn't do any of that the entire flight, plus the fact he didn't learn anything that flight. So remember this. I know there's the old adage that you have two eyes and two ears and one mouth for a reason, and you ought to use them in that ratio, but really you should use your mouth even less.

1:18:52And so two things happened on that flight. One, he didn't get anything out of it. He didn't learn anything. And two, it made the people around him, quite frankly, not care for him to the extent they could have because he's a really good guy, but he just talked the entire time. And I don't think he did it out of ego. I think he did it because he was nervous. And so that's one thing I want you to check in the very beginning. When you get nervous, I do. When you get nervous, do you begin to talk more? One of the great things about my show is that I've had to learn to listen more. And people say all the time, one of the reasons they like my show is I seem so excited and so interested in what people are saying because I sincerely am.

1:19:24I've learned that being a great listener is easier than being a great talker because being a great listener the pressures off you to come up with a perfect thing to say, right? The perfect response, the perfect phrase that sounds smarter or better than somebody. You don't have to do that when you're a great listener and people's favorite topic, number one, remember this, people's favorite topic is themselves. They love to talk about themselves. One of the things I found over and over in my life and my friends get a kick out of this, but when I play golf you know you'll spend four or five hours with somebody when you're on a golf course.

1:19:53And oftentimes my friends will tell me, man, Dave really liked you, Ed. Like he really enjoyed the time with you, Eddie, so much. But he doesn't know anything about you. And one of the reasons they like me so much is I don't talk about myself. I love to talk about them. I love to ask questions about them. And so it's interesting when we're done, they really, really like me and they know nothing about me. And they wonder why they like me. But the reason they like me is I allowed them to talk about themselves. Plus the fact, the way I look at life, I already know about me. I'm not going to learn anything else by talking about myself.

1:20:22I'm going to learn by asking them questions about them. And so I think being a great listener has lots of benefits. One, people will like you more. Two, you're going to learn more. Three, it takes the pressure off you. And so listening skills are so critical. And even as we cover this, you may say, I'm a great listener. Well, let's go through some things and see how good we all are. Because even on my show, I'll be honest with you, I watch replays back of my show, and I interrupt too much. I jump in too much. I finish people's sentences for them too often. And that's an ego thing, almost like I think I can say it better than them.

1:20:52In fact, I'm so bad at it, I'll be honest with you. Before every show, I tell them, hey, this isn't like any other interview you've been on before. I'm going to interrupt you. You can interrupt me. We'll make it like a real conversation. And all of my guests always politely say, wonderful, that's great. I want you to cut me off. But the truth is, that's not how a great conversation goes. It's not two people interrupting each other all the time. It's one person talking, another person listening until they're finished speaking, and then responding. So this is something I'm not very good at. And so I teach this to you today, not being critical of you, but knowing that it's something I'm gonna have to get better at myself.

1:21:24So here we go. Let's talk about some critical steps of being a great listener. You know, there's this thing that's out there too that says, hey, when you're speaking to a woman, she doesn't want you to solve her problems. She just wants you to listen to her. You've all heard this before, right? Men, that's different. Let me tell you, none of this stuff is gender specific. It's not true at all. Nobody wants you to solve their problem necessarily, not right away. Everybody wants to be heard. Everybody wants to be listened to. Everybody likes to talk about themselves. And so just please remember that.

1:21:52This is not gender specific. Men and women aren't different on this. Men like to be heard as well. Men like to be important. Men like to be funny. Men like to be interesting. Men want to share their ideas and thoughts and worries and fears with other people just like women do. So remember this. You don't always want to just go solve their problem right away. Next thing is this. always be asking people for understanding so that when they say something, when they're finished speaking, ask them, so what I think you're saying is, or what I'm hearing is, or clarify this for me, because this shows how deeply you were listening when you ask for clarification.

1:22:27And what I'm hearing is, by the way, when you say the sentence to somebody, so what I'm hearing is, that lets them know you were hearing them, that you were listening to them. So as I was listening to you, this is what I understood. Help me understand, clarify for me, because this gives a deeper sense you were listening to somebody. The next thing is what I'm doing right now with you. Make eye contact. Look right at them when you're talking to them. Don't be distracted. Don't look around. Don't look at your phone. The way you tell me I'm important is by looking at me. I have a significant person in my life, and one of the things that drives me crazy is I'm always saying, are you listening to me?

1:22:59And she's always like, yes, of course I'm listening to you. And I'm like, well, could you look at me and let me know you're listening to me? I'm not going to say who that is either. But we all have that person in our life who they're listening, but they don't know to let us know they're listening. One of the best ways you can do that is by just looking right at somebody, nodding with them when they say something you agree with, right? Smiling when it's funny, like giving a normal response. And you'd say, well, this is basic stuff. You'd be surprised how often you look away, how often you're not focused.

1:23:29The next thing is check your body language. Are you leaning in? Are you welcoming? Are you warm? Or are your arms crossed when you're talking to somebody. See, I have this tendency when I'm really listening, I get really drawn in. One of the things I do is I get very serious and I almost begin to grimace and make a face because I'm so interested. I'm in deep thought. But what happens is my visual on my face doesn't indicate to them that I'm enjoying what they're saying or that I'm listening very deeply. So make sure that your facial expression, this may seem basic, but your facial expression matches the moment, matches the emotion.

1:24:05Some other people do something different. They're always smiling when something very serious is being said. That's not an appropriate facial expression, and it looks like you're not listening, or it disconnects the connection, if you will, no pun intended, between you and that person. So check your facial expressions. Make sure you're looking at them. Check your physiology and your body language. The next thing is that when someone's talking, the highest form of listening is to let them finish their sentence. Do not interrupt them. Do not interrupt them. I do this all the time when I get excited.

1:24:36Oh, really? Almost like I want to jump in and get my point in before they're finished. Or I want to sound smarter. Or if I don't say it now, I'm going to forget to say it. Probably the number one weakness in my ability in listening to people is my desire and tendency to jump in before they finish their thought. And what that says is my thought's more important than yours. My needs are more important than you. I'm done listening to what you're saying. Be careful to say things like this when they're talking. Uh-huh, right, got it, yeah, wow, mm, because what that does is it's called a nudge. You're nudging them along verbally to finish.

1:25:11It's like, hurry up, I got something to say. Uh-huh, right, and that nudges them verbally. I used to think that those were things I was saying that confirmed what they were saying, but it was really what was really happening is I would nudge. Better is that when they're done, you say, wow, or that's interesting, or you at least respond when they're finished. All responses are wonderful once they're finished speaking, but don't do the verbal nudges that get them to speed up and finish. Don't finish sentences for people next. It's another thing I do. They'll be saying something, and they'll be struggling for a word, and I give them the word.

1:25:43Let them find the word. It's their word, not yours. And you're stealing control of the conversation from them and making them feel like you're not listening to them. Don't finish their sentences. Don't give them better words. Don't talk over them. Don't interrupt them. These are all things that we all kind of do from time to time when we get excited. I'm not suggesting if someone has to make an incredible point that you don't begin to laugh or jump in. When it's your pattern with somebody, you're not being a good listener. Also, use acknowledgement statements when they're done. I agree. That's wonderful.

1:26:13That's amazing. Congratulations. Do things like that that acknowledge what they said because when you acknowledge what they've said, they feel open. That's an invitation to say more. But when you don't acknowledge what they've said, you don't give a statement to it when they're done, then they don't feel comfortable continuing to speak. And so ask probative questions. So when you ask somebody, for example, if they're new to you, do you have kids? They say, yes, I do. A follow-up question is what are their names? What are their ages? Begin to learn the volley of follow-up questions. The more specific questions you ask, the more what I call follow-up questions, the more and more interested you appear to somebody.

1:26:48Let me give you one more huge thing in being a great listener. Where appropriate, you touch somebody. So when they're talking, if they're leaning in, it's an emotion when you grab their hand or you touch their knee. Or when they're finished speaking, you shake their hand or hug them or pat them on the shoulder. And by the way, this has to be appropriate, right? Especially when you're talking about different genders. Be very careful of this. But one of the ways you anchor in, I'm listening to you, is with a touch. It anchors in the emotion. And so I'll often be careful when I shake their hand of touching them or touching their shoulder or hugging them when we're done or patting them on the shoulder or knee or something like that that just acknowledges I'm hearing you.

1:27:25If it's a guy, maybe it's a fist pump or a high five, right? But it acknowledges the listening and it encourages them to continue. So that is a little bit gender specific, but I just want to reinforce to you that that just shows you're listening. Then there's a series of questions I think you should ask yourself, just sort of a checklist of whether or not you're a great listener. So ask yourself this, in conversations you have, do you intend to do more or less talking than the other person? This is a huge one for me, especially in business or even in social as well. Do I talk more than them in the conversation?

1:27:55If I've come out of a good conversation, I've talked less than the other person has talked. Man, is this a difficult one for me, particularly when you're in a position of authority with somebody, when they're asking you a lot of questions and you're just answering. Make sure you're feeding questions back to them. A great conversation is at least a 50-50 split, but I think the best of them, they've talked more than me. That way I think I've given them more of my emotion and caring and concern than they've given to me. So ask yourself, what are your ratios in your average conversations? This is true, by the way, in everything.

1:28:25In your business meetings, in your sales meetings, with your children, with your spouse, with your friends, with someone you're comfortable with for 30 years and someone you've met for 30 seconds. Who talks more in your exchanges? Number two, when you don't understand what they're saying, do you ask them questions? This is such a huge form of connection with people. Oftentimes, if we don't understand something somebody said, we don't ask them a question about it because it may make us look not so smart or not very prepared. But the way that you really indicate I'm listening to you is, hey, can you help me understand this?

1:28:58And you ask for understanding. I didn't understand what that word meant. Or I'm not sure who Bill is that you're referring to. Bill who? Right? When you begin to ask questions of understanding, the connection deepens with that person. Another question to ask yourself is when you're in a conversation with somebody, do you often try to figure out what they're going to say before they finish saying it. This is an indication that you're not present with them when you're listening and you're trying to get them to finish speaking so that you can jump in and say your very important thing. So don't be trying to project forward what they're about to say because that means you're not listening in the present and there's a disconnect when you do that.

1:29:32So ask yourself this, do I often or ever try to project forward what they're going to say before they've said it? Next, do you find yourself just not paying attention when somebody's speaking to you? I mean, maybe you are looking around or do you find yourself just thinking about other things when people speak to you? This is a value issue. It really means that these other things are more important to you than what this person is saying. And when you begin to build a habit and a pattern of truly not paying attention, one of the reasons I enjoy my interview so much, and quite frankly, my connection with my guests are so long lasting after the program, is because I am so interested in what they're saying.

1:30:07And I'm interested in what all people are saying. If you were my Uber driver, I think my Uber drivers would tell you, man, this guy is overly interested in what I'm saying. And my cameraman, Mike, is nodding right now because he's been in enough Ubers with me to know. I talk to everybody. I think people are gifts, and I believe the way you open them up is by asking them questions. And so I don't care if you're a server in a restaurant. My Uber driver, a guest on my show who's worth a billion dollars, are the top athletes in the world. My pattern of conversations with people is very similar. I'm interested in what they're saying sincerely.

1:30:38and I think you should just begin to ask yourself that question. Are you sincerely interested in what they're saying? Because they can feel this intuitively. Another thing to ask yourself is in a conversation, can you intuitively sort of tell the difference between what somebody is saying and what they really feel? Why is this so important? Because oftentimes people wear social masks with us, don't they? And they'll tell us things, frankly, that just aren't true or don't completely confirm the way they're feeling about something. And so a deeper, deep level of listening is you can almost feel what they really sense about something or what they're really feeling, not just listening to the words.

1:31:12This is a way of connecting with someone. They don't even know you're connecting with them, but their words don't match their feelings. And when you can connect with their real feeling, man, have you not only got influence over them, but most importantly, you've got a connection with them. Next one, in conversations with people, do you find yourself finishing their sentences or supplying them with better words? Don't do that. I have this mistake sometimes where I finish their sentence for them, right? And I think, oh, we're connecting, I'm with you. That's not what it does. It disconnects you from somebody.

1:31:40When you use a better word or a different word, they say, you know what, I really was just, just really sad. Oh, you were just really bummed out then, huh? You've rephrased something for them. Another way of listening, the wrong way, I think, is do you sometimes only hear the facts and details they're given and not listening for the emotion behind it? Just listening for the emotion from somebody gives you a much deeper level of connection with them than just listening to the facts and figures. This is important, especially in sales, when someone's giving you facts and figures back. If you can connect with the emotion of it, big, big difference.

1:32:13Lastly, do you struggle with seeing things from that person's perspective, like really connecting with them, really empathizing with them, really believing in them? This is so important when you're listening to somebody is to really try to connect with their point of view. Because the way you help influence me is if I can meet you where you are, I can take you where we need to go. But if I can't meet you where you are by letting you use your words your emotions listening for the emotion behind it Really listening for your point of view. Maybe you sell cars for example. This person's had a really Traumatic time buying cars in the past.

1:32:45They're very skeptical about it You've got to be able to see it from their point of view This is true with getting your children to behave differently or interacting with your spouse It's critical that you meet with them where they are and take them where you're going So why are all these skills so important especially from a business perspective because this has been very detailed very granular. The reason it's so important is because to really influence somebody, they have to trust you. And the way you do that is by building rapport with them. So one of the things I used to do incorrectly is I brought all this massive energy.

1:33:13You ever heard people say, you've got to bring the most energy. The highest energy person does win. But the way that you really influence somebody is by connecting with them and listening and then matching them physically and their tonality as well. So when I talk back with somebody, I listen for their tonality, I listen to the volume of their voice, the pace of their voice, how they speak, I begin to try to match by listening to them the words they use, the tonality they use, and the volume they use. If they use a certain set of words from time to time, if you were listening closely, if you then use some of those same words back to them, you connect.

1:33:48So this is a form of influence. If this person sort of repeatedly used the words literally, literally, literally, you've heard that word three or four times, when I'm then going to be saying my stuff back then to influence them, I'm going to use the word literally. This is a connection word. It's part of the words they love. When I use words they love, I can influence them. This is a huge thing in influence, in closing, in moving people to make decisions that are best for themselves. If they talk at a pace like this, just like I'm talking at this pace right now, and I'm talking like this very fast, I break connection and we can't have rapport.

1:34:22So I want to listen for the pace that they speak at, the cadence, also the tonality. You know, they talk kind of hunched over and quiet. I want to talk like that and a little bit better. If they talk at a certain volume, if they talk like this, I don't want to talk like this. The same time they talk like this, I don't want to talk like this. I wasn't listening for their volume level. We want to match their volume level. And so when you begin to match and mirror like this, use the words they use, just a few of them, don't overcook it, but when they've got three or four words they use and use one or two of those words, I can promise you, you connect.

1:34:56When you speak at a similar pace to them in tonality, you connect. When you speak at a similar volume to them, you connect. If there are hand gestures as I'm listening and observing them, they use. If they're constantly folding their hands like this, if you're on audio, I'm folding my hands right now, they pray or they have their hands down or they do some sort of a gesture with their hands or shoulders, I will oftentimes, I'm watching, this isn't manipulation, this is connecting with people. I'm listening so closely, I can see their physical moves as well. If there's emotions I hear them go to often, which is regret or sadness, let's just say.

1:35:31They keep telling me stories about things they regret or they're sad of. I will share with them one of the things I regret and bring them with me. If they talk about past achievements or they talk about some material things, then I'll talk about some material things or past achievements. I'm listening for them to give me the language the words the tonality that I can move them with and this is also true in every area But particularly in influence when we're trying to persuade people So the reason this is so important is people have go-to words And so if you're really listening closely not only are you connecting better with me But they will tell you the three or four words they use a lot every human being does this by the way You do it too.

1:36:07You have a few words you use more than most And if someone's really listening closely, they can hear what those words are And if I use one or two of those words back with you, I've connected with you on a deeper level. The next thing that's huge, by the way, in listening is to repeat back to them what you believe they've just said. Repeat back to them what you've heard. This is what I've heard. This is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm listening to. This is true when I'm interacting with my children. Before I just tell them I want to do something, I listen to them and I say, here's what daddy's hearing.

1:36:35Is this true? And that's really been bothering you regularly. Is this something? So when I'm listening to them, they know I'm listening. Use acknowledgement statements. It's not done enough. People love to be complimented. I love to be complimented, you do. So after I've listened to you, after you've told me what you need to tell me, I want you to learn this sentence, everybody, right now. I just want to acknowledge you. I think you're amazing, I think you're incredible. Thank you for sharing this with me, that's awesome. And it might be with guys, you don't say, hey bro, that was cool, thanks man.

1:37:01Man, I always love connecting with you, brother, you're my brother, right? Always do a connection statement, always do an acknowledge, that's why I love you, man. Whatever it is, you know, people talk differently depending on who they're around. Someone you've known 30 years is different than someone you've known 30 minutes. But the fact of the matter is, I always do connect with me. I love you, brother. Thank you so much. That's why we're so close, man. That's why I love being around you. Whatever it is, you begin to say acknowledgement statements to somebody because it connects the conversation.

1:37:26It's what I call a post frame. After someone said something, the last thing I want you to focus on, children, spouse, business, brand new person in a social environment, or someone you know in 30 years, acknowledge them. Thank you. That was awesome. Great meeting you, if they're new, right? I get out of the room and go, man, I enjoyed our time so much. Thank you. That's post-framing what we just talked about. If it's someone I've been with a long time, say, brother, man, that's why I love you, bro. That's why I love you. And then other people, it's like, you always inspire me. You fire me up. Thank you.

1:37:52I love how vulnerable you are. Whatever it is, I just want to acknowledge you. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate you. I just want to thank you. I just want to tell you you're awesome. I just want to tell you I believe in you. Do an acknowledgement statement that post-frames what you've covered, and I promise you, you've now put a bow around being one of the great listeners that anyone will ever be around. It's going to make you one of the most well-liked and most influential people that you know. And by the way, isn't that what we're after in life? Being well-liked and being influential.

1:38:20And that usually comes down not to being an incredible orator, but being an incredible listener. And these are the skills. And these skills matter in every area. In building a church. In building a Boy Scout troop. In building a softball team. In building a business. In building any family. Anything in life is that we want to be able to be liked and have influence. and that always comes down to what we make people feel, and more than anything, people feel great when they've been able to talk about themselves, but most importantly, they feel listened to, connected with, and acknowledged. Listened to, connected with, and acknowledged.

1:38:53This is how we have influence over people. This is also how we make a difference in people's lives. The final piece of the puzzle is this, is that because of social media, we have such an advantage, and I just want to tell you something that doesn't happen enough, but when it has happened for you, man does it feel like the connection's even deeper. It doesn't matter what it is, is that when your separation from that person takes place and they leave you, especially if they don't live with you, whether that be a client, a best friend, a new friend, or someone you just met, following up a little while later with a text that just says, I enjoyed our time so much.

1:39:26I enjoyed listening to you. Thanks for sharing this with me. And maybe repeating back to them what you heard a little bit of. And when you do that, it cements them. Not only did he listen to me or she listened to me in my presence, but they continued to listen to me after I was gone. They continued to connect with me. And this extends the connection and deepens the connection. When after you physically separated, and even by the way, if this communication happened by phone and you weren't physically with them, for you to follow up after a phone call with a text a few hours later that just says, man, I enjoyed the talk so much.

1:39:58Thanks for sharing that with me. Or always love when we connect or you always make me laugh or I'm so glad we're new friends now. I feel like I've made a new friend. Whatever it is, you strengthen and deepen the connection with people by letting them know later, hey, I heard you. Hey, I listened to you. So not only doing great in their presence, but later confirming for them, I was with you. I heard you. I enjoyed it. I want to acknowledge you. Man, have you deepened the fact that you've listened to me.

1:40:39Outro Music