John Maxwell on High Road Leadership

26:17That is so good. And I was speaking for Johnson & Johnson several years ago, and they had what they call President's Day, where they bring in the presidents of other companies that they partner with during the year. And so I was talking to them about this factor. And I said to each one of them, I said, you probably need to go home to your team and just share with them some of the areas that you feel you're weak in your leadership. And I could feel, oh, you could feel resistance. I mean, these are all presidents, CEOs of companies. And so in fact, it was kind of tight and it was kind of time for anyway.

26:48So I said, let's take a break. I'll sign some books and kind of let him breathe a little bit. One CEO stood beside me while I signed books. And when it was done, I turned to him and he said, I really disagree with what you said about letting them know about your weaknesses. And so I listened to him. And when he finished, I said, I understand that. I understand. I said, but there's something you don't understand. I said, you don't realize your people already know your weaknesses. they already know them. They talk about them every day. You do understand, don't you, that the people on your team talk about your weaknesses all the time because they see it.

27:24I said, the reason I said, you need to go back and share them with them is to give the team comfort to know, oh, okay. He does know that. He knows he's not real strong in that area. They already know it. I just want you to let them know that you know it because I said, what really bothers team players is when they think their coach doesn't know. I mean, if I think my leader doesn't know, now I get really nervous because I think, I don't think it's going to end up very well because the leader doesn't see it. I said, the very fact you acknowledge it will then allow them now to not only connect with you, but talk to you about it.

27:58And see, that's a big miss. There's a big miss. It's kind of like, oh, I don't think they know that. Oh, trust me. They got you down. They have you all figured out. They know what you do well. And I tell my team all the time, because I'm 77, Ed. I'm not at the beginning of the runway. I tell my team all the time, you have got to talk to me. You have got to talk to me. Because how many times do I see people stay too long in the game? Yes. And so if I see people stay too long in the game, what would ever make me think that I'm not going to think I can stay too long? I mean, I'm not that smart. A lot of smart people have stayed on too long.

28:38And so the only way I know to fix that is to help my team give them permission, walk into my life, tell me when I was sharp or I had an edge. And they do it, and they do it really well. And what it does for our camaraderie and what it does for our chemistry, it just works because I know they have my back. They're going to help me. I watched him do this, by the way, everybody. I sat on the plane with him, and I watched him do this with his team. And they do have an unbelievable camaraderie, and they are candid with him. The remarkable part of the story you told about the roundtable is not just that you apologized and wanted to make it right.

29:13It's that you've created a culture in your own team where they were comfortable immediately telling you, hey, you've got an edge here, that they're not going to be rebuked for candor. And that's often what leaders do. They rebuke candor, and then it's never done again. And he's completely right. I mean, I won't double down on the point, but I can just tell you as a young man in business, and I was certainly edgy, and that would be being polite. I was certainly more than edgy and I would never acknowledge it. And he's a completely right. Years later, I'll meet people that work with me. They talked about it all the time.

29:46In fact, it was magnified because I didn't acknowledge it. And if I'd acknowledged that weakness, number one, I think its impact would have been reduced. And number two, maybe I'd have gone to work on it. Almost could have been something. It maybe even could have turned into something funny. Like here he goes again. Right. But I didn't do it. And it became, uh, it became divisive. it separated me from people rather than connected me with people. And great leaders like John, they connect with people. That's just what they do when you're around them. John has this thing in the book. I wanted to read this to you because it's a simple thing, but I'd like you to discuss it.

30:22I'll give you what you said, and then you talk about it. And it's just accurate. He says, when you're leading people, you need to express your belief in them. I think it's one of the rarest things leaders do. I don't know why, but it's almost like a blind spot for most leaders to say, let me tell you how much I believe in you and why I believe in you. And when you tell somebody something that is, they intuitively know to be true about them and that you see it, you are bonded to them. You're one of maybe three people in their entire life if you do that. So one is express your belief in them to like John always talks about, equip them.

30:57And once you've done those two things, you can do the third thing, which is challenge them. Too many leaders like to challenge before they've poured belief and equipped. So I want you to talk about, I think probably, no, I don't think, I would say more than anyone in my life that you do this tremendously well. I never leave your presence where you haven't told me how much you believe in me in a sincere way, by the way, I'm not sitting there going, ah, he's doing that thing again. It's sincere. I just want you to express, I think you're the best I've ever met at this. Well, thank you. I do believe in people.

31:32And by the way, that also makes, let me have a candid, let me have another hippo moment with you. That also means that I don't hire people well. In fact, I was asked one time, what was my most important business decision in hiring? I said, today I quit hiring people and let somebody else do it. Because my belief in people really is a blind spot in hiring. You know, when somebody's hiring somebody, you kind of need some negative son of a gun over there that is just looking for the problem. And I don't have that in me. And really, so that belief is a wonderful thing. But also, every strength is a weakness.

32:11You know that. So we're having a little fun with that hippo moment as far as I don't hire well. But let me just say this. believing in people doesn't have much strength if it's just words. So when I see people doing word belief, I call it hype. In other words, okay, you know, when are we going to put down the pom-poms here? So it has to be, see, real belief in people is backed by behavior.

32:45It isn't what I say to you, although saying it is very affirming. I'm not saying don't say it. I'm saying you got to back it up with belief. I have a very good friend that's going through a deep, deep, deep, almost unbelievable deep valley right now. He spent all of his life and he's about to lose just about everything that he spent a long time building. I'm very sad about that. And so I'm with him. And I'll tell you what it means is I'm in his corner. I'm not leaving. I'm in this corner because I know the good that he has done. He's done a tremendous amount of good and I am not going to let it be destroyed by one stupid mistake.

33:38I'm going to do everything I can to help maintain that legacy for him because he has a good legacy. And I think belief is more than just, boy, I believe in you. Belief means I'm your friend. And you don't need to. I tell people, all right, if I'm your friend, you don't need to look around. I'm in your corner. I'm there. I'm not moving. I haven't moved. I'm not moving on good days. I'm not moving on bad days either. I'm not moving. And I think that, I call it belief mixed with unconditional love. And when you put the two of those things together, two of the three that my father gave me when I graduated from college, you put two of those three things together, I think now you strength.

34:27And then what I tell people all the time is behavior is never experienced until difficult times. My behavior during good times is just like everybody's behavior. What separates is the bad times, the dark times, the difficult times. That's when people leave. That's when people are no longer there on the scene. And that's where I've always said leaders run to the fire. They don't run from the fire. They run to it. And every time I go express and love my behavior, a belief in somebody, and I'm there during that difficult time for them. And you know what? I'll have to say there's some selfishness to it.

35:09In my life, I'm gonna have some of those difficult times too. And I want them there. I need them. I need them. Let me just say one other thing about belief. I think leaders don't say often enough, Ed, to their people, I need you. I need you.

35:29I love telling my people how much I need them. I love telling my people that if I didn't have them, I wouldn't be here. And this wouldn't have happened. I love letting them know that what they did made as big a difference as what they think when I go in and do my part. And to say I need you is a high, high compliment. It's like you ask a person their opinion. What a high compliment when you say, what do you think about this? You talk about giving net value to a person. That is absolutely life-changing. Can I say one more thing? Just one more thing on this. I try to add value to people, which is high road leaders.

36:14High road leaders add value, not take it away. But there's a difference between adding value and appreciating value. Adding value is general. I just add value by trying to be kind and do the right thing. But once you know a person well, now you began to add value to them in the area where it counts for them. And that is appreciate. Now, all of a sudden, adding value is adding, but appreciating value is multiplying. And once, once I see after, after, after our two days in Mexico, I know how to appreciate value to you. Now I, I, I, I can add value to, but I know how to appreciate value to you. I know what you care about, what you love, what's important to you, what you're passionate about.

36:58And then you find that, and then you say, okay, that's what he loves. That's what she cares for. Okay, now what am I going to do in that area? And the moment I get in your sweet spots, now I'm not adding value to you. I'm appreciating value. It's going through the roof. Does that make sense? Well, I just watch it with you. Yes. I mean, this is such a remarkable conversation because as you're talking about these lessons, I have watched you do it. We just spent a couple of days in Mexico together, John and I did. And without getting real emotional talking about it, I told my wife when I got back, I think I got 10 years, more than 10 years worth of growth out of those two days.

37:39And it was in recent memory, no, beyond recent memory, in any memory of mine, the most I've felt appreciated and grown at the same time maybe in my life and uh he has this amazing ability guys to make you feel like a million bucks but at the same time add value we were talking you know he and i both speak so some of the things we were talking about was that world and details of it and watching how much john writes he writes every day every single day he writes and i mean i don't want to be personal but he says hey give me a topic you want to talk and he pulls his lap and he got 600 talks like 600 100.

38:15Is that the right number? It was hundreds. I remember. Right on his laptop, I'm like, Mike. It's ridiculous. Only old people can do that. Only old people. It takes a lot of time. Also, no, but also that he would share it. John shares. He wants to add value. He's not afraid to tell you he needs. A lot of leaders won't say, I need you, because they think that you'll take advantage of it. That's how they think. Or, if I share with you what I'm doing, then you'll do it better than me. John literally said to me, I share this stuff with you, Ed, because you'll take it and you'll make it better. Yes, that's right.

38:44And that's about adding value. That's huge. What's really huge, am I in this for me or am I in this for people? If I'm in this for people, I want the best product for the people. So when I give you something I have done, Ed, you're going to make it better because you have gifts that I don't have. You have experiences I don't have. You have stories I don't have. You have perspectives I don't have. So what is beautiful is when you give something to somebody like a talk or whatever and say, It's yours. Their foundation doesn't start there. It starts up here because you've already raised the level.

39:16But then what happens, Ed? You keep growing. So to me, anything I have, you can have. Because what you take and when you give it, whether it's in a book or in a talk, it'll be better than I ever gave it because I was the first. A pioneer knows, a pioneer knows they go break ground, but they also know the people who come behind them will do better. and they want them to do better. What kind of a pioneer would I be if I went out and found the land and came back and blocked it off and didn't want anybody else to find the land and just kind of held it for myself? Now that's kind of a small world, but you're exactly right.

39:51I do genuinely want people to take what I have and make it better. And it's theirs. It's okay. It's okay. And guys, by the way, because I'm such a fan of his work, everything he's saying is in the book. So the last chapter, desire the best for others. That's exactly what he's doing when he does these. He lives these things. Okay, a couple more things. This is one of the most remarkable, because we freelance this today, guys, just so you know, because we have this thing where we know, you know, Holy Spirit's present, and just it goes crazy when you and I visit. There's one thing you have in there that I was surprised was in there, but I'm glad that it is, and that is that high road leaders don't keep score.

40:38and I want you to talk about that because there's a other playbook where people go, I'm putting that chip on my shoulder and I'm going to use that somehow as leverage to some extent but I want you to talk about that Well, I think of all the things in that book I think that's the most interesting chapter because I think a lot of people are transactional and they keep scoring and somebody said, where did you learn that? Why I learned that? Because I had somebody that I looked up to keep score on me. Oh, really? And one day I made a decision he didn't like. And he said, how could you make that decision after all I've done for you?

41:18And all of a sudden I realized, oh my gosh, Arnold keeps score. I didn't know that. I thought we had a relationship that didn't keep score. And then what I, well, then what happens? I'm in the hole. I mean, of course he's done a lot for me. So now I can't catch up. And it begins a thing of, okay, you know, he did this for me. I did this for me. So I think keeping score is great for games. I think it's terrible for life. I don't keep score with Margaret. I don't keep score. And the reason I don't keep score is what kind of a marriage is. I said, Margaret, let me explain something. You remember two weeks ago when you did that?

41:56And because you did that, that isn't the marriage. And now why don't we just get a table and have a negotiating time here? There's no love there. There's no care there. There's no compromise there. There's no, oops, I'm sorry, I can be patient here. And so therefore, I think that keeping score makes us transactional when we should be transformational. And there's a world there's between a transactional person who is always looking for the edge. I got to win here. And by the way, let me tell you something. I don't even like to win and have the other person lose. If I can't win with the other person winning, I really, what, I mean, where's the joy of, oh, well, I, you know, I got, I did a good deal and they're going to lose a couple of million, but I'm going to get that.

42:41And I mean, where's the, and by the way, if you've come to the table and you lose once and I say, come back to the table, you don't want to come back to the table. Why would you come back to the table with me? Because all you have is the fact the last time I took from you. And so I have, I think high road leaders, they want more for their people than from their people. And I think there's a big difference for that. And if I can't help the other person win, honestly, I'm not interested in the game. I'm not because my goal isn't to win. My goal, I mean, who wants to cross the finish line alone? I want to cross the finish line with you, Ed.

43:22I want to cross the... Everybody on your podcast, I want you to be at the finish line with me. I don't want you to be in the stands cheering. I don't need cheerleaders. I want you to be in the game with us, and let's cross it together. And I just think that it is a very fulfilling, significant life when you don't have to always win. And when you say, no, I think it's their turn. I think I want them to get a win under their belt right now. And there's something there's something very beautiful about that spirit. And of course, I'm a Christ follower again. There are dozens of Jesus illustrations I can say where he didn't win.

44:04He didn't have to fight for himself, didn't have to jump up and down and say, no, I'm right. Don't you know who I am? I am the son of God. I mean, excuse me. This is not even territory here. No, he had the ability to love unconditionally and and sometimes walk away and i think it's very important i i when people come to me i want them to say he adds value to me not i wonder what he wants from me wow i don't like that yet at the same time in the book you do talk about being conscious a high road leader will give more than they take yes yeah here's the difference i i don't keep score but i do keep track Okay.

44:47Oh, this is good. If I keep score, I'm in it to win, and I will find a way to win. That's wrong. What I want to do is I want to keep track. And what I mean if I keep track is I want to be very conscious of what people have done for me. And I want to make sure that it's not a one-way street because relationships don't work. Marriages don't work if it's a one-way relationship. One day, the person doing all the giving says, I'm tired of doing all the giving, and they're doing all the time. So I keep track, which means I'm very conscious of people that have helped me in added value. And I'm always asking myself, what can I say to them?

45:21What can I do for them that lets them know that I'm not a friend along for a ride? When I'm in South Florida, I'm a teaching pastor for Christ Fellowship. It's a huge church, 30 ,000, 40 ,000 people anyway, which, and I only do it four or four times here, cause I don't have any time. But I told my two dear friends, the founder and the lead pastor, I said, guys, it's very simple. Give me your garbage days. Give me your, I mean, give me the Sunday, you know, Memorial Day weekend. Okay, Labor Day weekend, you follow me. How about right after, you know, right before New Year? I mean, when everybody's gone, and just give me your garbage day.

46:01In fact, Margaret was laughing one day, he said, John, she said, you've come a long way in your career when you were a senior pastor, you used to give the staff the garbage days. Now that's what you do, the garbage days. But listen, every year, Ed, I sit down with Tom and Todd, and we have a lunch, and I resign. I say, guys, I need to resign now off of this. I'm 77. You need to get somebody younger, better, faster, smarter than me. So let me just, it's good. I love you. It's my church, but I resign. And every year, they don't let me resign. But let me tell you something. I am never going to stay on the team because of a friendship.

46:40If I'm on the team, I'm adding value and I'm giving more than I'm taking, or I'm not going to be on the team. Because I think sometimes people take friendship. I think people take advantage of friendship. I think sometimes we're on the team and we're saying, well, you know, I'm not really producing Fred like I need to, but we're friends. We're good friends. We're really good friends. And I'm sitting there, I'm saying, being good friends and producing isn't the same thing. Hey, you can be good friends and quit. You can still be good friends. But don't take advantage of friendship. And I think, again, high road leaders, they keep track.

47:14So they're never going to take advantage of friendship, but they don't keep score. Very good. Very good. There's a difference. Very good.

47:24All right, I got two questions left. As usual, I sit here. I forget we're in an interview. I'm just talking to someone. It's because we're friends. We're talking. But it's just also so good. So this is probably the hardest question of the interview, though. And I even debated whether to ask it because I think the answer is so difficult. But I want to hear your answer. So how do you nuance? People say a leader should take a stand for what they believe in. You and I have actually talked about this together. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on this. Yet, sometimes as a leader, if you take a stand about something that you're passionate about, that knowingly will alienate a group of people you're charged with leading.

48:07So there's something I'm passionate about, so I'd like to take a stand for it. But at the same time, as a leader, don't I have an obligation not to alienate or offend people who I want to believe in and challenge and equip at the same time? And I think that that's, you know, in my own case, there are people that I used to work with that I just no longer do because they got so crazy about stances on something that they justifiably believed in deeply, but that I just didn't need or want from them in that environment. I needed their leadership and their vision and their equipping and their belief more than I needed their opinion about this thing.

48:47Yet at the same time, leaders stand for something. So hard question. That's a good question. First of all, leaders should stand for things. If you're not standing for things as a leader, you're not a leader. I mean, you're pointing a picture, you're showing people a direction to go. So a leader that stands for nothing isn't a leader. I mean, they're just in the crowd somewhere. So standing for something is essential in leadership, but what is more essential is valuing the people. So here's the way I say it. When you stop loving your people, you should stop leading your people. Because I'll start to manipulate you now, start to take advantage.

49:26So when you and I disagree on something, which you and I, we'd have, my gosh, we wouldn't agree on everything. It has nothing to do with friendship, but we wouldn't agree on everything. This is very simple, very simple. I've got to make sure, first of all, that you know how much I love you and care for you. And here's how I let you know that. I look at you and I, if I unconditionally love you, I love you regardless of what you think or what side you're on or what your political stance is or what your belief is. I just love you. And that doesn't change. There's nothing that can change or keep me from loving you and valuing you.

50:03Nothing. Is there anything you can say? Is there anything you can do? Once I have established that relationship of unconditional love, I've done that with my kids. My kids know. My kids haven't made every decision I would approve of. And I tell him, I said, unconditional love doesn't mean I approve of everything. It just means that whatever you do, I still love you unconditionally. And so once they have that environment of unconditional love around them, then absolutely I can give my opinion. And by the way, unconditional love lets them give their opinion too, even though they know that it isn't going to be what mine is.

50:39And so the miss is this, When we love the issue more than we love the person, we're in trouble. I don't love any issue. There's no issue I don't love more than the person themselves. And once I establish, I love you because I love you, period, because God created you in the story. Now, we can work on issues all the time. And by the way, we will work on issues all the time because I'm safe to you. at a safe environment. A safe environment is essential. My mother unconditionally loved each one of us as children. She was so safe. I mean, when I got into trouble as a kid, I went to my mom. I mean, you don't usually go to a parent, you go to a friend and say, oh dear, I screwed up.

51:26No, I go to mom because I knew mom loved me unconditionally. And that creates a safe environment. Then, what I say then, once you have that safe environment to live in, now start leading. Start leading, lay out what you think, and it gets better. But you've got to love the person more than the issue. Oh my gosh, guys. I would write that word safety down. It's one of the words leaders don't emphasize, don't think about, don't focus. And I think it's the fundamental that you create a safe environment. By the way, sometimes it's a little thing, Like some of you guys that used to show up on time when you were younger and as the company got bigger and you've made more money, now you show up later and later.

52:05That creates a lack. There's little things that your presence, your love, your belief, your structure, your equipping create safety. That's the underlying message that's being sent is we're safe here. And then you can explode and do anything you want from a safe place. Okay, last question. This is just about you because I want to ask you stuff. Do you care about your own legacy as a leader? And if you do, what do you want it to be? Wow. Well, yeah, I care about what I value. Jack Welch and I had a conversation before he passed away that was life-changing to me. He said to me something that I had never thought before, and it was kind of like, oh, this is going to help me.

52:55Of course, he was CEO for many years of General Electric. He said, John, don't put your legacy in an organization. Put it in people. He said organizations, over time, they just change. Different people lead them for different reasons and different agendas. But he said, put it in people. In fact, that was probably the motivating talk that got me started with my coaching company, which we have the largest coach in the world, is I said, I want to develop coaches that I could put my legacy into. But what, so when people ask me, what I want my legacy, here, I want my legacy to be two things. I want people that knew me.

53:34I would, you know, when I say, my name is John, I'm your friend, that probably should go on my tombstone. Yes. My name's John, I'm your friend. It's that simple. It's just, I'm not complicated. I'm a very simple person anyway. The second thing I want is that in this life, I added value to leaders who multiplied value to others. I want my legacy to be in the leadership lane because multiplication begins there. If you can change a leader, you can change people's massive amount of people. But so it's in the heart. It's in my heart and it's in the heart of my people. And I honestly think that when I die, I'll never die, to be honest with you.

54:15I think that the principle and the truth will still live and those values will still go on. But as far as John Maxwell, the person, I'm not interested in that at all. I have no desire to have museums or anything like that. I don't know that stuff. I want it to be in the values of the heart. I want it to, that's where the, that's where transformation starts in the, in, in, in caring for people. every day this is very simple i wake up and say what a life i have today i get to intentionally add value to people and it's that simple it's to the single mom waitress that i'm going to give a big tip to because a hundred dollars is important to her in fact i tell people that when you're blessed like you and I aren't, I want to tell you something right now.

55:11What's little to us is big to others. So we better make what's little to us big. And if we do that, we're constantly, I got a picture. I was playing golf the other day at Highlands. I got to get you up to high. I got to get you. Oh, it's a great golf course. And Tom Fossard and there were seven beautiful brothers that were doing all the hard work and raking and doing all the work. and I went over to him. I said to the guys, I was already on the green. I said, give me a two-pup. I'm on the green. And I hung with him for three minutes just to talk to him how nice the course looked because of them and how much I appreciated that.

55:53And I gave him a couple hundred bucks and said, go out to lunch on me. And I wanted to know how much God loved him and how much I loved him. And so what's interesting is when my group came back over there that the guys, they wanted a picture and man, I have the best picture of my arm around about seven of these beautiful brothers and, and, and it, okay. That's what counts in life. If I don't do that privately, I don't want you to hear me publicly because there's no gravitas or moral authority in what I say publicly. If I don't live that life privately. and he does you guys he does i i picturing him doing that because i've seen things similar to that with john many times just how he interacts with the server or well i won't tell you you got the picture give me my camera or give me a i'm having a charge go ahead close it up and i want to see i just i want to show this picture let me just say this to you you're going to show us this picture at the end if you're on youtube everybody but i got to tell you this the book is called high road leadership the author of the book embodies that more than anybody that i have ever met and uh and the subtitles bringing people together in a world that divides i hope this conversation today did and there's a picture we can see it it's reflected there it is there it is there he is with the guys he it's it's right there it's been a good lunch i hope they had a good lunch somebody says i hope you had a good golf round i had a good golf round because i did this i'm better hey ed i'm better at this than i am at golf I can vouch for that.

57:33I love you, John. Today's conversation. I wish we could have John on every week. This would be so easy. I love you. All right. God bless you, everybody. Max out. Share this episode. This is the Ed Myron Show.