Master The Art of Communication

0:04This is the Ed Milet Show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. You know, today was a very important episode for me in terms of scheduling this today because I think it's such an important topic for a couple reasons. Number one, one of my great concerns in our culture right now is the way we talk with one another, the way we have conversations. It just seems to me over the last 20, 30 years in our culture, we've lost the ability to have a conversation with somebody that we might not agree with in a productive way. and I'm sure you all agree with me as well. It's become very difficult in our times to dialogue with somebody that you might have a disagreement with or to have a difficult conversation with.

0:45The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. Even with my kids, one of the things I hope they leave our home with is the ability to communicate, the ability to have a conversation with somebody and it is a skill and there are insights in how to do it better and I just feel like it could change our world if we talk to one another better. And I think you'd agree with me too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist.

1:21And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Wisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called The Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact. And I'm really excited to get into this topic. So Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It really is for me. You know, a lot of times of all these people on my show that have these huge followings or guests, you know, that, you know, major notoriety. And I've always found that oftentimes it's the topics on my show that really move people. And more and more people are concerned about the way we talk with one another.

1:56And so I want to get right into it. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself? So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them. I want to go to the hard stuff first. Like I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican, something like that. You know, these hard conversations. What are some of the keys in being better at doing it so it's actually a productive experience?

2:28There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very, the conversation will remain difficult. there's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions and we get all of those mixed up right and they all get discombobled and jumbled up in our brain but if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth then we can slowly we can say okay what's driving my opinion and we sort of can open our hand and go this is why i'm thinking how i'm thinking this is what my standards are.

3:14There's four archetypal questions in the book. This is what I'm worried about. This is my concern. Here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say, okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance with that. Let's see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation with fists and fists coming at each other. Yeah. And you also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself, is to fall in love with asking questions. Right. When you're talking with somebody, Whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company, or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement, or you've got to talk about something different.

3:49Like I've used politics as an example, because it's the big one, right? Like they're good, we're bad. I'm right, you're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions. Right, right. And the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's driving my opinion, what's driving my judgment, and why am I so hooked on the thing, right? We can also, the questions help us, like each question can help us open someone else's hand. Because we can ask, well, what do you really want? What do you desire here? What do you want out of this?

4:26What are your standards for measuring this opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist. Right. Yeah. And, and, but we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas. And then we get into school and we're rewarded for raising our hand. And then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room. Right. Right. And that's a counter to the, the opposite effect is asking questions. Well, this notion of raising your hand was my next thing. So you're reading my mind. and I think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening, and that's why questions matter so much, and you're precisely right.

5:11In school, the teacher's still talking and asking the question. We're taught. We're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking, and what that does to me, I want you to speak to this. To me, what that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say back to you in my answer or my judgment or my assessment about you. most people are already raising their hand you know metaphorically when most other people are still talking and they wonder why am i not connecting with this person why can't we find common ground because while they're talking you've got your hand raised already i got the answer i know the truth i want to say something and rather finishing and letting them finish their statement yeah so our our brain is spinning our answer uh and so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person.

5:57Right. And, and part of that, that actually the main reason that is we are, we get addicted to our position, our ego and our identity gets addicted to, I believe this. And if I believe this is true, then that is, that defines who I am. And that, that is often why we enter with fists or why we enter, you know, in defensively, you know, and, and can't just say, okay, I do have an opinion. I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to see if I can explore really what's driving this other person's thinking. But if I just want to go back for a second, everybody, first thing to ask yourself is what's your ability to ask questions and to ask questions without judgment as someone's answering you.

6:39In other words, can you learn the art of not raising your hand metaphorically when someone's talking and be fully present with their answer absent as much as you can of judgment? We'll talk about triggers in a little bit because you have some brilliant stuff in there on triggers, which I teach in other areas of life. I never thought about in terms of a conversation. But the one thing that opened my eyes and why I wanted you on, among many things, is this idea of there's four conversations. Right. And one of them is storytelling. But take the time on this and elaborate. What are the four different conversations and what do they mean?

7:13So these are four types of conversations. they organize the book and the reason they they work well to do that is they each conversation has its own lessons to learn tools to try practices to try on because each conversation demands different skill sets and they're all interconnected we're generally without knowing about the conversation we're just in conversation like fish and water and as soon as we get wait a there's storytelling, there's collaboration, there's creativity, and there's commitment conversations. Already, we have a different lens to think about conversations. If I took you to spend six months with the Inuits in Alaska, and they taught you there's 27 names for snow in those six months, when we came back to New England, you would never see snow the same way.

8:07because all of a sudden you have distinctions about snow that allow you to see and perceive and have a different story about snow right conversation is the same way if we can begin to think about different conversations and different ways to listen and different ways to ask questions and why it matters we can't be in conversation as innocently right yeah yeah we go oh, I need to wake up here a little bit because I'm locked down and I'm creating a fight because I'm locked down, right? So that's why the four conversations are just the beginning to say, we can start looking at conversations with a better lens.

8:48Yo, so good. The four he said, by the way, I just want to make sure you get it, are storytelling, collaborative conversations, creative conversations, and commitment conversations. I want to give you a compliment on how your work helped me a little bit on the storytelling part or listening for someone's story um i have a friend who i was watching two friends argue one's very right wing and one's very left wing both these dudes i love i love both these guys yeah and i actually understand the perspectives of both of them and so the conversation was actually about welfare and uh taxes and my left-leaning friend was you know they were kind of arguing at first and you know you know you should be paying your fair share you don't want to help the underprivileged you don't know what this is like and the other guy's like wait a minute you shouldn't be lazy you should get a job and it should be temporary and the normal position they're both really getting ingrained in it it's like because of your work i'm like wait a minute and the one guy that was for welfare i said i said john i said brother really what's the story like why are you so passionate about that welfare should exist right i wanted to build a bridge between these dudes and anyway john who by the way you resemble john visually um john says he's a really strong masculine guy and he goes well man you guys don't know this but i was on welfare i was a little boy and it saved my family and there was a time where as a little boy i was actually with my mother on the street begging for money so we could eat and it was a horrible existence.

10:20I was a scared little boy and it was traumatic for me. And thank God my mother got on welfare. And you know what? My mother stayed on welfare for quite a while and my mom didn't really turn her life around, but I did. And now I'm a major league tax player. And I know you buddy over there on the right side, like all the taxes I'm playing, but you don't know what it's like not to have food. You don't. And I watched him tell the story and I had to force it. And I watched my right-leaning friend listen and the the judgment level which is what you talk about the judgment level was so far reduced where this is the case ironically where the story served us yeah and because he i kind of forced it because your work to listen and that kind of comes from questions and it goes to my next point with you you talk about triggers often this welfare conversation from my friend was a trigger why he was getting angry with the right-leaning friend Like, you're not sensitive.

11:14You don't care. He's triggered by that thing. So talk a little bit about in ourselves evaluating our triggers when we're listening to somebody. The storytelling conversation is the first one for a very good reason, because unless we begin to understand the stories we tell ourselves, right? Some help us, some harm us, right? But until we understand our storytelling patterns, and I use patterns in a very particular way because it takes sting out of judgment. The patterns we have around stories and patterns we have around how we get triggered, the patterns we have around reacting to people, we didn't even choose those.

11:56They're unconscious patterns by our family, by our culture, by our teachers, by our friends, just our social stuff. So we have patterns, right? So we can start looking at the story I'm telling as a pattern. I can then look at myself with less judgment. and I can go wow that's an amazing story I have is it true what's factual you know and and in a way what your friend did was he was able to reveal his story about his childhood right and and that there's a couple things happening he's revealing he's opening his hand I'm concerned because I I know what it's like to be on the other side. My standards say that, you know, we can afford to help take care of some of these people because they do need it.

12:47And, you know, so he revealing his hand. And also it begins to show some vulnerability. And so if I show some vulnerability, the other person, or in your case with that conversation, as your friend shared his story, that vulnerability changes the other person very good very good and that and that that reduces that tension all conversations where there's tension they're somehow involved in that is a judgment of the other person right yeah what does one do because it's hard you're like this guy's crazy he's out of his mind what a bozo you know like it's very difficult to do he really believes this crap you catch yourself mid-sentence already raising your hand going this dude is i gotta let me fix this guy right let me fix this so yeah what do you do when you're starting to feel this judgment or a because you know maybe the guy is crazy right like i it but in my what i found out in my life is like you're not going to change that person by attacking them you're not going to change that person by somehow being more authoritative than them which we'll talk about in a minute in business about the power dynamic.

13:59But what is a practice that I can do when I'm in mid-judgment almost of somebody going, what in the world are you talking about? Is there something you do? What's a technique or a thought? So one technique I like, and it's sort of a metaphor of if something's coming at you and you really dislike what's going on, right? Your automatic reaction, your automatic pattern, right is to react yes right because because it goes into your system goes through your your brain and and the pattern pops out very little effort on your part that's right that's right right so the idea is to begin to name your patterns so if you have a pattern of where a certain person kind of person or a certain kind of conversation whether it's politics or sex or abortion that is a trigger for you just be totally aware of that pattern and name it in fact there's there's a thing called voice dialogue where you can actually name that voice in your head like there's um there's snobby chuck or there's intellectual chuck or there's hurt little boy chuck you know you can sort of name it and if you can name the patterns and become familiar with it then you might be able to catch it before it enters your body it loses its power over you when you become aware of it and name it.

15:24Yeah. Yeah. And then you can catch it. And then if you catch it, then literally in the book, the four questions that I, that peppers through the book, just ask yourself, is there a power issue here? If I have a strong judgment, what standard is based? Am I basing that on? I mean, standards are in every judgment we have. Let's go through those four questions. Cause you're going into them right now. Let's list the four and talk about the standard piece too. In a tough conversation, facts are important. So if you and I disagree on something, we can first say, can we find some firm ground to stand on where we have some facts we can agree on?

16:04Okay. Right? If we can do that, then that's good firm territory. We can't do that. We might not want to go into the conversation. The second one is we often have opinions based on concerns because we don't want tomorrow to look like today. So our worries at two o 'clock in the morning are, you know, we're worrying, oh, the kids aren't home yet. I have this thing tomorrow I have to take care of and I'm not prepared. That's all concerns that wrap us up in their stress, right? And show up in our opinions. But we often don't talk about them. Very good. the third question is are there power issues in business there's power issues in every relationship we have power issues one friend can tell you look like and you don't care another friend can say you look you look horrible today you go wow i really want to know why you think that because we give their voices different power right or different authority right and then the last question uh is is standards and it sounds like a throwaway but every judgment we have i don't like the lighting I don't like that teacher.

17:13I don't like a D that's based on these under underbelly standards that we hold that we didn't even consciously choose because we adopted them from our family or our DNA or our, our education. That makes sense. totally makes sense yeah i it to me it might be the most important of all of them even though it feels like a throwaway you talk about up down and across conversations in the book which is really powerful stuff it's it's something that is descriptive of something we all know exists but we never define it so if i'm a leader and i know i walk in let's just be real i'm paying everybody here let's just say yeah right we all know who's calling a shot we all know who's in charge but I want to diffuse that.

17:56Like I want collaboration. I want brainstorming. I don't want it to be a down conversation where I'm, I'm up and talking down. What is something I can do? By the way, even as a father or a mother with my child, and we're trying to figure some things out, most parents go to the, the, the, the easy card. I'm in charge. This is my house. It's my rules. and that's they do the power thing it's really easy right so what is something as a leader and a leader to me as a parent or a business person we can do to foster the more collaborative conversation and not that authoritative one let's hit both because they're really different so in the business setting you're the boss you're paying everybody right yep understanding that there's that cultural pattern of people bowing to the boss yep people getting quiet if the boss says we should do X, right?

18:49So you have to be super aware of that and be aware that even if you say, let's do this, but you're not, you're just saying an idea. Let's, well, let's think about, maybe we should do this. What an untrained team is going to think is, well, that's it. We're done. Right. So the boss in that situation really has to take his awareness and go, you know what? I'm going to come in. I'm going to present something and say, we have a problem with quality. Let's talk about quality. I want to hear from everybody. We all have a different perspective. Let's get smart together. I don't have all the answers. And you know what?

19:27I do have a responsibility to make the decision, but I'll make a better decision with your help and your expertise. Let's get smart together. I'm stealing that. the higher and higher we climb and the more power we accumulate accolades we get the more people that are bowing to us the more we think we know when actually ironically simultaneously we're in a position to know less and less and less because we're removed from the actual work so it's really important as a leader i mean humility is an important thing obviously in life but it's also that story if we begin to believe the story there's these powers to these stories the stories is, man, I call the shots.

20:05I get everything right. I know everything. There's a reason why I'm where I am. You start to believe your own press clippings and your own story. It's the beginning and the end for a great leader of watching political leaders, people in politics all the time. It's like nobody they go, well, he surrounds himself with yes men or she resounds herself with yes people oftentimes in life. Well, that's the dynamic. You have to work as a leader for that not to be the case if you just leave it to its own devices you're saying that's sort of what the the conversation dynamic on default is going to go that direction that that is default mode right exactly yeah right and you know the distinction i like to make is we are trained to be knowers and if you're trained to be a knower you can't say i don't know and leaders fall into that trap but if you can't say i don't know you're all you know you're already not going to be a good leader because you aren't going to be able to appreciate all the talent, all the expertise that's coming at you to make a better decision.

21:04So leaders have to say, I don't want to be a knower. I need to be a learner. And families, let me just hit on that for a quick one. I want to go. That's where I'm going. Families are different. It's different because we're talking about, I mean, age stuff happens in business too, but with families, and I'll use an example for myself, when the kids were young and I asked them to do a chore, I think in the book I use one of breaking the leaves or something you do right and and and then I go off and say I'll pay you five bucks to do the leaves and I come back and I'm like they're all happy and they give me my five bucks and I'm pissed like you call this raking right right well number one I had a standard that I didn't share with them number two I I was 40 years old I had 40 years to understand what all that meant and what breaking men and what responsibility meant they're seven and nine they can't think like me and that's often a parental gap where we forget that we how could you do something so god stupid but we forget that they don't have our 40 years or 50 years of mistakes and learning and, you know, and maturing through all those mistakes.

22:25They can't think like us. That's no excuse for bad behavior, but it changes how we approach it. Of course. Well, it changes whether it'll repeat itself based on how you handle it. So, or whether they have a willingness to do anything again. If I'm constantly in business or in family, punished and punished and punished, and that becomes the standard, you've shrunk the ability to have that open dialogue of communication as opposed to learning. That difference, what you said, with learning is so huge. The other thing I've learned is that, especially in these power dynamics, and you don't talk about it in the book, but I want you to talk about it here, is that people feel like you genuinely want to listen to them.

23:05I'm more open with somebody if I think they're sincerely interested in my opinion. And I think there are things we do in conversations that make people think we're just trying to raise the hand thing again. And I've learned this subtly. I used to do this often. Someone's talking. I'll finish their sentence for them. Right? You think you're helping them. You're not helping them. You're telling them, I know how to say it better than you. Hurry up. Or when they're talking, you'll say things like, uh-huh, uh-huh, right, got it, yes. And what those are is they're nudges. you're nudging them to say listen hurry up and finish what you're saying so i can say the really important thing which is what i'm about to say and so there's little subtle things in conversations that wonderful conversationalists resist the temptation to do i still do it but i do it far less than i used to because i realize i'm not helping them i'm really sending them an energy that says listen i got it okay hurry it up let's pull this together so i can say my really important thing here.

24:03You agree with that? Yeah. And what's going on is that, you know, we're talking about conversations, but our bodies don't lie. So if I'm in a conversation and I think you're full of, excuse my language. If I think you're full of it, what that's my, my internal dialogue is, what is this guy talking about? He doesn't know what he's talking about. da da da da da da I'm so busy doing that and I might think that's not visible but my body language and my eyes and my manners are all broadcasting this guy I don't really want to listen to this guy yeah right yeah and so the body doesn't lie our minds do and a part of the book I talk about a really important exercise of becoming familiar with our private conversations and I've done this with hundreds of people and and it's the exercise where you write down a tough conversation I said she said I said she said and then you go back and you write down what you were thinking and feeling and that's your private conversation and it's surprising how many people when they write it down and they have to read it to their partner or read it out loud, they're like, oh my God, that's really ugly.

25:22But becoming familiar with it is how we transform it. Our own stories oftentimes can be very limiting. The stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, I think we project onto others. I think a lot of times when someone's in a conversation and I'm judging what they're doing, I'm telling a story that somehow, I think sometimes we're afraid they might change our mind. So I'm just going to judge this because that way my mind is blocked from any, I am so addicted to this belief. I'm so addicted to this pattern. I'm not letting you get anywhere near this space of mine where I might actually reflect on making a change here.

26:03Right. And that's a story I'm telling myself. So how do we evaluate the stories we tell ourselves? Do they limit us? And is there a way to change the story we tell ourselves? We live on stories. We thrive on stories. The world exists because of stories. Money is a story. Law is a story. You know, I mean, if you really get into it. But personally, we have stories that we have to investigate because they aren't the truth. And we didn't mostly adopt them consciously. You know, the story in the book that I wasn't a big enough man that I adopted from my grandfather. Well, that was a hell of a limiting story that affected how I saw myself in a room, how I interacted with other men.

26:47Right. Our stories serve us and we can we can appreciate them and we should applaud them and we should, you know, live by them. But then there are stories that we tell ourselves. I'm not smart enough. I'm too fat. I don't do this well enough. I don't do that well enough. Each of those deserves some awareness and some attention. It's so good, Chuck. I'm a big believer that these stories become self-fulfilling prophecies. And they're the narrative of our life. And the more to your work, the more we become aware of what we're telling ourselves about a story or a situation or a circumstance, that awareness makes that story lose power over us.

27:30And now we actually have opened up the possibility and probability of creating a different existence, a different conversation, a different relationship, a different abundance, a different emotion, a different life. And it is these stories. And I think that's why your work is so important because these stories are dictating all the dialogue. The dialogue you're having with another person is incredibly powerful, but the dialogue you're having with yourself is the one that I got from your work that I went. That dialogue I'm having with me is what's impacting the dialogue and conversation I'm having with other people.

28:05Absolutely. Absolutely. And whether it's conscious of yourself, whether you're conscious of them or not, your body's projecting all of that. And that's going to create the reaction. You know, if I had the story, not a big enough man, the way I'm acting and behaving, other people will start thinking of me as not a big enough man. And you change it and all of a sudden it's like, well, I can stand up to anybody that I want to. And then I get a different reaction. So life does change that way. Your life literally changes. I think your book can change lives. I can change culture the way we talk with one another.

28:43I'm really grateful. Yeah, I went with the hardest one first because if you can actually have that conversation, you can have any conversation in my mind. All the politicians should read my book. They should. They should. I'm telling you, we'd have a better world. And I went to the hard thing first, because that's the one that's so dominant in our culture right now. We join a team, we tell a story, and then we just judge and defend until the end. And it's just, it's why we're getting nowhere in our country and in our world too. By the way, your book is wonderful. So guys, Chuck, thank you for being here today.

29:15You guys, it's the art of, yeah, Matt, it's my pleasure. The art of conscious conversations, transforming how we talk, listen and interact. And I will submit that could transform how you live. And so go grab it guys. If you're inclined, remember to max out your life and Hey, go grab the power of one more of my book where you're getting that book. Number one, nonfiction book in the world right now. God bless you all max out your life. This is the Ed Milet show.