Ryan Holiday on How Stoic Principles Can Help You Thrive in Modern Society

26:31They were seeking out clashes so that newspaper photographers and news videographers would capture the horror of what was happening and show it to the North. And eventually the North would solve the problem federally. And so it's not just enough to be right. There also has to be a savviness and an astuteness, a sort of an ability to understand how to wage and win a campaign for the hearts and minds that I think Gandhi just does not get enough credit for. I agree. And by the way, speaking of credit, I'm going to ask you about that next. But that's like such a lesson for all of you entrepreneurs that are listening.

27:16My most favorite entrepreneurs don't have the biggest companies and are going against the biggest ones and not trying to beat them at their own game they're strategists they're finding their advantage they're finding their way of how to get public sentiment on their their side build their own types of fans and oftentimes it's swimming against the tide it's it's the uh it's coke versus pepsi it's becoming the alternative it's becoming the company people root for there's so much in that

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28:32Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera! They see us! Only pay for what you need at libertymutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts. But what you just said last about Gandhi was actually my next question. So it's perfect, which is what I admired about him was he didn't want recognition, that he sought to do good and not get recognized for it. These are my favorite people, like my mom. She just did good and never expected. Think about the people you admire most in your life, everybody.

29:04Oftentimes, one of the things you admire about them, ironically, is they actually don't seek recognition for what they do. They just do good, do good. And how does someone do that, Ryan? It's one of the things that you talk about in the book. That's such a hard question. I don't even know how you're going to answer this. But how does someone do good yet maintain this, I'm not doing it for the significance or the recognition of doing it? Well, I think first off, what you just pointed out there is something we need to add to our perspective. So look, most the people we hear about the most, we hear about in large part because they want us to hear about them.

29:43Right. So so our understanding of reality is not representative. Right. Most most great artists are not seeking the spotlight. Most great people are not seeking recognition. And so as a result, we don't hear about them. What we hear about are in some ways the worst of us. Right. We hear about the hungriest, thirstiest, most attention seeking people by definition. Right. And most of the great people, most of the successful people, most of the fundamentally decent people, they don't want you to know about them. And in fact, you know, they're actively seeking that you don't know about them, right?

30:20Their donations are anonymous. They are deferring the credit to other people. They are operating in the background. The Stoics have this idea in meditations, Mark's realist. He says, be careful not to ask for the third thing. He says, you have done something good and someone has benefited from that. So that's one and two. And he says, the third thing is asking to be repaid, asking to be recognized, asking to be credited. The third thing is that reciprocation for what you did. And so I think the idea of seeing, okay, yeah, I did the thing and someone benefited. That's my repayment. The other stuff is extra and in some ways a distraction.

31:08And then what you often see, I tell the story in this book, there's this fascinating article about it that I that I based the chapter on. But there was this woman who she donated her kidney to a stranger. And and just imagine what an incredible thing that is. And by the way, it happens every day. People's lives are saved by total strangers. And so she donates this kidney and she she starts this Facebook group of her friends where she's just kind of talking about, you know, the journey that she's on. And she notices that this one woman who she was kind of work acquaintances with isn't really responding.

31:44It's almost like a Shakespearean play, how the events unfold. But she starts to notice and it starts to eat at her that this woman isn't noticing. It isn't congratulating her and isn't saying thank you and appreciating what an incredible sacrifice she went. And look, long story short, these two women end up clashing. They become enemies. They sue each other. They write about each other negatively. It's this almost comical series of events. But it's just an illustration of like, look, if you expect to be recognized and appreciated for doing good, sometimes you'll get it. But a lot of times you won't.

32:24And it's going to drive you nuts because you do deserve it. This woman did deserve to be congratulated and thanks. But who knows what was going on in this other woman's life? She didn't care. She was jealous. Maybe it was triggering for her in some way. But but the result is both of them end up wasting incredible amounts of their time in this argument where the facts are indisputed. You know, she did something good. Someone benefited from it. That's that could have been the end of the story, but she needed more. And we all do that to ourselves. We do someone a favor or we pick up the tab or whatever.

33:05And then we're thinking, okay, they understand this next time it's going to come back my way. And then it doesn't. And then we start to hate that person and we resent that person and it frays our relationship. And it gets to a point where we might as well have just not done the good thing in the first place because it ends up making us worse as human beings. It's so true. By the way, as someone who has sought recognition for a good part of their lives, it does get you pretty high when you first start getting it. And here's what's terrible about this drug. What's terrible about this drug, by the way, of always wanting, by the way, I relate to the picking up the tab, everything you just said, but it stops getting you high after a while.

33:45And what's worse is the lack of it does get you down. So when you seek it for a while, it will get you high and then it doesn't. And then when it's not there, I've watched this with so many of my friends, it's a massive withdrawal and very painful for people. It is a drug I recommend you never get addicted to. Yesterday, just about how many good people in the world, very small microcosm. I donated blood yesterday. I was in there, you know, they figured out that I'm, you know, whatever, that I, a public person. And so there's about 17 people in there donating blood and everyone's sort of making a bigger deal about me.

34:23And she goes, it's just amazing that somebody like you would be in here and just trying to help other people. And I finally told her at the end, I said, I have to be honest with you. That's actually not why I was donating blood today. I'm doing it because my doctor rectum ends it and it's therapeutic. And that's actually why I'm here. These 16 other people in here, these beautiful souls, these are the good people in here. And I thought about them all day, actually. These people got in their car, drove down to this place, let someone stick a needle in their arm just to give blood so somebody else could live.

34:53Those are good people. No one will ever know that about them. Yet they exist in the world every single day. And so there is more good in the world, as you say in the book, if we focus on it than there is bad. If we see the good in people. One of the things Ryan recommends in the book is see good in people. You know, it's funny that you mentioned the giving blood thing, because when I was reading this story about this woman who donated a kidney, I was like, that's incredible. I want to do that. And my wife goes, don't donate. She's like, you're not going to donate your kidney. What are you talking about?

35:24What if our kids need it? Can you really afford to be out for months recovering from some surgery? And she just goes, have you ever even donated blood before? And I was like, I don't know that I have. And she's like, why don't you start there? So I have every two months for the last two years, I've gone and done it. And you're right. Not only does it feel good for you, like you know you're doing something good, but there's something reaffirming about your view of humanity that happens when you're waiting in line to do this thing. And as you're doing it, people are coming and going and you're just thinking, yeah, some kids having a surgery and they're benefiting from this.

36:11Somebody just got in a car accident and they're benefiting from this. There's a terrorist attack and they're benefiting from it. There are these things that you can do. And again, when we think of justice, we we think such this bit we think these big sweeping things and the reality is there's a blood bank down the street from you that could use 30 minutes of your time and um you know you get a cookie at the end of it you should go do it yep and you just make a deposit in the bank account of humanity and you'll feel good about it yeah i mean it's called a blood bank it is a bank You are depositing something that maybe you will take a withdrawal from at some point, but certainly other people will.

36:53And that's what it's all about. And that's also why you should see the good in people, by the way, which is in the book. Yes. I've got to ask you this because, by the way, you can tell with Ryan, we're going to get to an hour so quickly and it sucks because I would go three hours with him like Rogan does, but I don't do that on this show. So, but loyalty, again, getting a little bit older, pretty damn rare, brother. Like people seem to want to be loyal to people that they get something reciprocal from. When they can't anymore, it seems like loyalty, not only loyalty to other people, loyalty to your character, loyalty to your values.

37:29I know you mean that in a broader sense, too. But talk about why loyalty is such an important virtue. Yeah, loyalty is easy when everything's going well. What about when it's not going so well? And the other thing I've come to understand about loyalty, there's a quote that struck me that's in the book. Truman was this very loyal guy and he was loyal. And one of his advisors sort of goes, look, you got a break with some of these people that, you know, they were in the middle of some crisis. And he said, look, you've been loyal to people who have not been loyal to you. Right. And I thought there was something about that that actually kind of gets to the point of what loyalty is.

38:11is, which is that loyalty is something you give, not something you get. The idea that loyalty is something you ask from others, the Stokes would say that's not in your control. But are you a loyal person? How do you think about it? Are you loyal to where you came from, to the people that brought you up, to the causes that you got started with? That's what loyalty is, as opposed to this thing that you enforce in your organization or in your family. You know, I think a lot of parents do this. They're like loyalty is something they demand from their children as opposed to something they give to their children.

38:55Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. That's really good, brother. Yeah. I need to even think through that one. Wow. Okay. You stopped me in my tracks on that a little bit. Boy, I hope they've seen that in me. Gosh, darn it. That's a really good one as a dad. Holy crap. What about practicing pragmatism? I just didn't, I don't think I've ever read any chapter like that before in my life. I mean, it seems like just another chapter of the book, but it's not to me anyway. So go ahead and tell us about that. Well, look, obviously justice is about ideas, right? What is fair? What's the right thing to do?

39:33How should the world be? But the reality is the world is not how it should be. And so it can be particularly hard for idealistic, you know, justice oriented people to handle the necessity and and frankly, the the the the rightness of compromise. You know, if you or even just the rightness of of having to be savvy and strategic like we were talking about, you're not going to get everything you want and you're certainly not going to get it all right away. And so to operate in the world, one has to figure out how to how to work. Look, who did we ally with in the Second World War? We we allied with Stalin, one of the worst human beings who ever lived.

40:23But you know what? There was one human being who was worse than Stalin, and that was Hitler. Right. And so from from from a purity standpoint, that's not a good place that you don't want to be allied with someone like that. But from a pragmatic place, Hitler, you know, from a pragmatic place, the the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Right. And and so so as we bring justice in the world, not only do we have to make compromises like, hey, you get some of what you want. I get some of what I want. But also we have to compromise sometimes on the purity of our beliefs in order to effectuate change in the real world.

41:06I'm just thinking of politics again when you say that like I wish there was a little bit more of that like let me get you some of what you want the challenges in our society in the U.S. like you are just punished for giving the other side anything they want and the thing that's contradictory about that which is part three of the book is that there are other sides instead of us all being one if you could actually begin to see things from that perspective and I that's probably like let's just talk about the third part a little bit because and again, I keep talking about getting older. I need to stop saying that, but like that's shifted in me.

41:37Yeah. It's not us and them or we and they, or I'm much less that way in my life anymore. And I feel so much better about myself, my life than I, than seeing just differences and distinctions and, and seeing people as separate as opposed to like, in my case, like some empathy, some understanding. I'm very different man than I was in some cases 20 years ago. And so if I have given myself some grace to change and grow, why can't I give people grace when I meet them where they are now? And so the whole third part of the part three about, you know, all is one and all the different things in there about, you know, be an angel, forgive, make amends, like just put a bow on all of that.

42:27Cause I think this is awesome stuff right here. there's only a handful of people who have ever seen the earth from space right and what they say to a man and woman is that in that instance as you are looking at the earth from beyond the earth is that all the distinctions all the borders all the disputes all the disagreements all the ideas of of race and culture it just instantly disappears because you realize we're all living on this tiny little, what they call it, the blue marble, that we're all living on this tiny blue marble together. And so many of the things that cause disagreement and conflict, you realize don't exist, right?

43:10When you look at a map, you see all the different boundaries and borders between countries. When you look at the earth from space, you barely even see the distinctions of continents, right? All of what looks like one enormous landmass, punctuated by these enormous oceans, which dwarf the small pockets of humanity that exist. And so, yeah, remembering how connected we all are, how much more we have in common than we do different. The Stoics had this image, and it's very powerful. They said, look, we're like this dot. And then there are these concentric circles around us. You know, there's our family, there's our neighborhood, there's our state, our country, you know, the strategic empire that we're a part of.

43:57There's human beings, then there's the animal kingdom, then there's all life on earth. There's everyone that's ever going to be born. Right. And the idea is they said that the purpose of philosophy was to start to pull some of these outer rings inward. And so that word empathy, you said, it's the ability to to take people who are different than you, people who are doing things you don't like, doing things you don't understand, and starting to see what you have in common with them, starting to feel affection and connection with them, and bringing them inwards as opposed to pushing them out, which is what a lot of us do.

44:43We go, they're others, they're different, They're awful. This is what Lincoln did so beautifully during the Civil War. He understood that slavery was an irredeemable evil that needed to be eradicated. But at the same time, he said of the South, we are just what they they are just what we would be in their position. His point was, if I had been born in a slave state and grown up owning slaves, I would have so much trouble seeing what is clear to me from the outside. And so the ability to do that and then work with that person and try to nudge them towards a better place, that's what justice is about.

45:25Rah, so good. Like, you know, everyone, I got to tell you, like, I get credit sometimes, you know, obviously I make lots of mistakes, but like speaking is one of my things that, you know, I'm pretty good at. And one of the things I always try to picture before I go out and actually feel, this is vibrational frequency is going to be very different than what Ryan talks about, but I want to merge it. I actually picture us all as one. Yeah. We're all a family. And in my case, we're all God's children. And so when I come out, I think I emanate that energy. I think I vibrate on that frequency. And there's a connection emotionally that maybe you wouldn't get if someone didn't have that focus.

46:00The other day I had, you know, a meeting that was coming up, very contentious meeting and everybody around me is like, you need to lay into these people. They are, and everything on paper, Ryan, these people were out to hammer us, right? Like they were, and I'd never pictured them before. And so they're coming over to this meeting with me and man, I am, I'm pretty wound up, right? And it's been weeks and it's brewing and brewing and it's a very, they present a challenge and I've pictured them as these monsters. And then they, they walk up and they're, they're, this guy brought his wife with them.

46:34It's this older couple. They seem like very kind people. and instantly I literally just said a quick prayer. I just said, peace be with you. I mean, I literally, and I just shifted my energy into, we're one, this is my brother or sister. We see these things. And this meeting went incredible. I don't know how it went yet. I don't know the results, but I know this. At the end, when he shook my hand, he goes, sincerely, I can't believe we had such a beautiful experience. I enjoyed my time with you so much. And I said, so did I. Now, I don't know where the meeting is going to go, But I know the percentage chances of it going the way that I would prefer it is going to go.

47:12It's a whole lot higher. And that's not why I did it. It just changed our vibrational frequency by giving empathy to one another and a prayer that we were one. And even if it doesn't go the way that you, even if you don't get the outcome you wanted, wasn't the process better? You know what I mean? The process was at least not torturous. Correct. And by the way, I was able to make all the points, everybody, that I wanted to make that needed to be made with a different tone, a different energy. I frankly, I stuck to my virtues and values. And being mean or condescending or big timing them or threatening them or bullying them, like I probably would have done when I was younger, isn't consistent with who I want to be.

47:56And although it might have worked short term when I was younger, I didn't particularly feel very good about myself. And even from a strategic standpoint, as Ryan's talked about, I think this way of going about it requires a little bit more articulation, requires a little bit more thought, a little bit more strategy. but I actually believe is a more effective way. But to your point, I feel better about me going forward. And they will as well. It's just, man, I just, frankly, I wasn't tired after that meeting like I normally would be because I would have to exhaust so much of me that's the bad side.

48:29That's beautiful. I love that. Well, it's your work. It's not mine. This episode is brought to you by Marshalls, where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshalls hustle hard, working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces because Marshall's believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshall's store near you or shop online at marshalls.com.

48:58Last question. Yeah. And I'm surprised I was reading this stuff about you're talking about toxic masculinity. And so it's interesting coming from you because, you know, Sometimes your work, when people don't know it, is accused of creating that. Yet when I saw your comments about it, I thought, well, gosh, he's almost on the other side more than maybe even I am. But if I had to err on the side in the real world, I frankly meet a lot of men, in my opinion, who need to be more virtuous and stronger, not less. So why is it – even that term, why is masculinity in your mind even – or maybe it's not – toxic?

49:38because I don't feel like being masculine means anything more than the things that we're talking about in your writings here. No, that's a good point. Look, I don't have a problem with being strong or being tough. I don't have a problem with combat sports or driving Lamborghinis or working hard or making a lot. I don't have a problem with any of that. I think what I what I am especially concerned about and trying to take some very specific efforts is some political correctness is annoying and obnoxious. And sometimes people are too sensitive. And, you know, the world is is is can be a harsh place.

50:24And if you think everyone is going to love you and be nice to you all the time, you know, you're going to have a hard time in life. What I don't like, though, is this kind of embracing of cruelty and meanness and and like intending to be offensive as if that is itself a virtue. So I'll give you an example. I don't control whether someone how my words are received by someone else. Right. At the same time, I do control whether I go out of my way to be considerate and kind and appreciate somebody else's experience. Does that make sense? And I think I think there's been an overreaction or overcorrection in our culture that is leaning towards almost the celebration of meanness and cruelty.

51:19To make this precise, look, I guess we can have a variety of opinions on, you know, the science behind being trans, its role in society, what what, you know, we should allow what what treatment should be allowed for children, etc. At the same time, it's obviously very difficult to be trans, right? And so I want to think about what it would be like to wake up every day and be under the view that your gender, which you got at birth, doesn't match how you feel inside. And I want to think about what it's like to be that person. And I'm not only not going to go out of my way to make life hard for that person, I want to think about what I can do and say and what we can do as a society that makes life bearable for that person.

52:15Because that's our job for all people, whether we're talking about someone who's in a wheelchair, whether we're talking about someone who's gay, whether we're talking about someone who's a nerd, whether we're talking about someone who has come here from another country. To me, what justice is, what being a good person is, is just thinking about what it must be like to have the experiences of another person and to go out of our way to be considerate and conscientious to that experience. And I just think the Internet depersonalizing these things and feeding on conflict and tension and anger has created this environment where, especially for young men, there's almost this performative cruelty and and bullying that that is not only not good for the victims of that stuff, but they themselves are a victim because it's making them.

53:10And it's it's dulling very important and positive traits that men and women both have. But I think women do women's culture does a better job nurturing and supporting, if that makes sense. Yeah, fair enough. I think like anything in society, maybe there's the two extremes. There is that Internet version of the cruel version. And then there's the extremes I meet in my life where I'm like, dude, you need to step up and be stronger and stop blaming everybody and, you know, get your act together. I see both of those things. And then there's probably a bunch of dudes that live in the middle. But I don't disagree with you on those things, actually.

53:52I'm glad you clarified it. I really do. You know, those of you that are believers, you know, one of our jobs is to love everybody. Yes. And empathy and a little bit less judgment and assessment. And I yeah, you you think about who Jesus was. And I think the thing that jumps out to me most about Jesus was his willingness, not just his willingness to to tolerate the sort of poorest and weakest of society. But that's who he had the most affection and compassion and love for. Right. Like that. Those were the people that lit him up that that he that he sought out when he would go into a town or a city.

54:30He wasn't like, show me the richest, show me the toughest, show me your most important people. You know, he went to the prostitutes or to the beggars or to the to the lepers. You know, he had this affinity for not just all human beings, but he had a special affinity for the people whom life was the hardest. We care for them. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. It was. This has been a beautiful conversation. Oh, man. We always go a little deep. I love it. I love it too. Well, we'll have to do it in person. And you got to tell me when you're in Austin next. I want to, I want to have you out. Yeah, I will.

55:07Okay. I'll let you know. I'm speaking there three or four times a year, so I'll let you know. I definitely will. Enjoyed today. Guys, Ryan's book, by the way, is right thing right now. Good values, good character, good deeds. You can tell this is, his books are not short on content and, and specifics and neither is Ryan ever. So very grateful. Go get the book, everybody. Ryan, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. God bless you, everybody. Max out your life. This is the Ed Myland Show.